[Phat Bastard]

I don't post in the Lounge too often, but I've lurked around and there are interesting sounding people here, so I thought I'd fish for some advice and see what I come up with.

Here's my story. It's about a girl, as you might be able tell from the title. I've known this girl at the building I work in for almost three years. I was attracted to her from the very beginning, I asked her out but she was going through a rough patch and breaking up with her ex at the time, so she didn't want to get into another relationship. That was understandable to me, and we remained friends. A few months later, she starts going out with another guy in the building, and they ended up going out for a year and a couple months. They broke up this January and it's been really hard on her. She feels completely heartbroken, she breaks down into tears at work, and it's taken her until now to be able to say it's finally OVER.

Throughout the time I've known her, single or not, I've gotten to know her really well and I've always been attracted to her. Since she was in that relationship that was actually pretty good for the year or so, I regarded her as a friend and I pursued other women. I haven't had much luck, but basically "she" was out of my head as she was "taken."

Now that she's single again, I'm allowing myself to think about her again, and I do it all the time. I can't focus on anything else. My past has been filled with a lot of rejection so I've built up walls around my feelings but this time I'm allowing myself to fall head over heels for her. I know I'm in love. She is everything I've ever wanted in a woman, she's intelligent, beautiful, caring, has great values, she dreams and philosophizes like I do. She's into the same books and movies as me. I just love spending time with her. I even dream about having a family with her.

What I'm having trouble with now is this: I'm not sure if she thinks of me as anything more than a friend. She would have to be an idiot to think we don't have anything in common, or that I am not a nice guy, because we do have so much in common and I try to treat her well. It's crazy how often her and I say "that's exactly how I think!" and how many things we do have in common. If she's given it any thought at all, she must know I would be a great boyfriend. But since she is only now over her ex, and we've been friends for so long, I don't know if she's given any thought of me beyond just that, friends.

And since I have no idea if she cares for me, let alone loves me like I love her, should I bother allowing myself to love her and think about her all the time? Am I being stupid and setting myself up to be crushed by admitting I love her, when I don't know what her feelings are?

What would you do in this situation?

Discuss!!!

[OptimusG4]

The best thing to do is ask her out, maybe not on a date like you want but as friends and try to talk to her about what she thinks about you. I wouldn't tell her you're in love with her or anything as that might turn her away but at least let her know how you feel about her and see what she says. The worst thing to happen is that she could say she doesn't have the feelings towards you and just remain friends. Just take it one step at a time and see what happens from there.

[disectamac]

You've already set yourself up to be crushed, however you didn't have much of a choice, love isn't choice.


You don't have to ask her how she feels about you to find out. You don't have to feel like it's going to be a question that's going to reveal mutual feelings or total devistation for you (extremes)(win all lose everything situation)(bad). You don't have to suggest, "I am attracted to you, why don't we try the boyfriend/girlfriend thing and see what happens". Manipulate your environment!

Work on her perception. If her feelings toward, or at least her actualized realization of her feelings toward you aren't developed, work on them. Do small boyfriend like things with her and for her. Things that won't go unoticed but wont' scream 'I'm your man'. Also important is that some of those gestures and actions don't go unoticed by her friends. Make it so they make comments to her like 'that friend of yours is perfect for you'. Build a coalition of positive not forcive influence toward her.

The point is to try get her to ask you out, however you may fall short of that goal. Short of getting her asking you out, the point is to lure her in your direction and then you'll find the right time to ask her 'you know what we are attracted to eachother, why don't we go out on a date and see what happens'.

[mitchell_pgh]

MITCHELL'S PATENTED LOVE REALITY�
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

This one is an easy one.

Ask her out to dinner and a movie (or perhaps something more interesting like a local event that you are in to that she might enjoy) and see where it goes.

If she has feelings for you, she will go or make it a point to let you know that she is interested in seeing you at perhaps a different time/event. Don't waste your time thinking of some elaborate way to "talk" to her about the relationship or where you want to go as I know from experience that it usually freaks the female out.

WHY NOT TALK TO HER?

1) Because it usually makes you out to be a freak that has been thinking about this every moment from the first moment you saw her.

2) Because it isn't necessary to open yourself up for a "crushing" if it's not necessary.

3) You can obtain the same outcomes with a less abrasive tactic.

[NOTES]

It's important to make the dates progressive. If you do the dinner and movie rout, perhaps do a dinner and drinks the next time or dinner and movie at your place etc. etc. You do not want to let her think of you as a "Movie Buddy".

Enjoy yourself and take it easy. The fastest way to make her want to end your friendship is to make her feel uncomfortable. Most girls like to be around confident guys, not stalkers, wimps or losers [I don't think you are any of those, I'm just saying keep it upbeat].

Don't go down the relationship play by play path and talk ONLY about past boyfriends/girlfriends. If it comes up, make it a small part of the conversation and move on.

Be 100% honest. Girls will drop you in a second if they can prove that you have lied about anything.

Don't dwell on any negatives. "I don't understand why girls don't like me" is my personal favorite. You might as well put a gun to your head. Keep the date positive.

Ugh, I should do this for a living.

[benb]

This sounds eerily familiar.

Oh wait, its been me for the last month.

[Phat Bastard]

I agree with mitchell's advice. I've seen the Pouring Your Heart Out and then Getting Rejected/Devestated script first-hand before, and I know what happens at the ending. I think women like to be told "I love you" and have your heart opened to them and all that jazz but only when THEY choose it--do it too soon and you scare them off, do it too late and they complain--regardless of when the guy needs to say something. The woman has to be in charge. This is the raw deal men got out of the Swingin' Sixties.

Anyway. I've already started taking baby steps, I've been hanging out with her with a few friends at a time, which is way different than seeing her at work everyday with a million other people around. This has been going on for the past three or four weeks, until this past Friday when we did this pseudo-double date trip to the museum with another couple, and then she asked me to join her and a couple of her friends at a lounge afterwards. It was the weirdest thing, I was frustrated because at the museum she seemed to be in a rush to leave when I was enjoying talking with her about the exhibits, and then afterwards as I felt all dejected she asks me to join her at a lounge. I was understandably much happier after that since it was the first time she's asked me out like that, even if it wasn't to be completely alone. And on the phone on the way to the place she forcefully told her friend "it's over between us", meaning she's over her ex. At least so she says. I really don't want to read into these things too much but perhaps there were some signals there.

Since that night it's been even harder to get my mind off her. Now she's gone on a trip to Europe for two weeks so I'm going to go through hell for a little bit here..I'd like to get on the ball with asking her out somewhere alone (was thinking about a baseball game) ASAP but I'll have to wait.

It's funny, because I feel we know each other well enough to be past all the "first date" nonsense and awkwardness, but we really have to go through that because we have after all just been friends. Since we've known each other as friends as opposed to meeting via the dating route, I feel even more uncertain as to whether she is into being more than friends, so that makes me want to ask her straight out. I should to resist that temptation though, back to how this message started and mitchell's advice.

It's a Catch-22: the more you want to know someone's feelings about you, the lower the chance of those feelings being positive if you take action to finding out what those feelings are. At least early in a relationship. Women are backwards!

[businezguy]

Bang her while she's still vulnerable. That's my advice.

[quandarry]

Originally posted by Phat Bastard:
I asked her out but she was going through a rough patch and breaking up with her ex at the time, so she didn't want to get into another relationship.

there is your clue right there. when a woman says she's not ready for a relationship she really means not with you. believe me if a guy walked thru the door who wet her panties she would jump right into another relationship...which is what eventually happened.

forget ever having a chance with her...you didn't provide a wet panty spark.

[Weezer]

Originally posted by quandarry:
when a woman says she's not ready for a relationship she really means not with you.

Sad but true. My friends give that line alllllll the time to guys they arn't interested in.

[waxcrash]

Hate to break it to you, but I don't think you'll have a chance with her. If she ever had any feelings for you, you would have known by now.

[Sandbaggins]

Originally posted by quandarry:
there is your clue right there. when a woman says she's not ready for a relationship she really means not with you. believe me if a guy walked thru the door who wet her panties she would jump right into another relationship...which is what eventually happened.

forget ever having a chance with her...you didn't provide a wet panty spark.

This is the truth here.

Simple yet very very fqing true.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by disectamac:
You've already set yourself up to be crushed, however you didn't have much of a choice, love isn't choice.

This has a truth to it. Still, you *can* avoid falling over heals if you act fast when you see where things are heading. I've never managed it, but every time I try I hold out for a lot longer. It might just work.

Anyways, I don't know how the culture in Canada is, but here in Europe dating just isn't an option as such. At least not anything like you see in American movies. Totally different rules.

I don't have any solution or good advice to you Phat Bastard (hah) but generally speaking: a girl you've fancied for three years is well out of the picture. Heck *no* girl is worth three years of having a crush on. Three months is closer.

I'd say more but it all boils down to this: Forget her for a while and then when you feel you've got enough emotional distance from her do whatever you always wanted to do. (i.e. ask her out, kiss her spontaneously, ask her if she ever liked you etc.) because she won't hurt you then. It is also a lot of fun to do this and frankly very easy once you've got over that person.

[badidea]

Originally posted by quandarry:
there is your clue right there. when a woman says she's not ready for a relationship she really means not with you. ...

I am also sorry that I have to agree with this!!
It happened to me three times in the last six month (I am having a hard time right now to get over it ) and all three girls gave me the feeling that this would end in a wonderful relationship but after meeting them (one after the other! ) for a while all were saying something like "we met at the complete wrong moment - I am still thinking about my Ex-boyfriend and I need my time..."!

[voodoo]

Originally posted by badidea:
I am also sorry that I have to agree with this!!
It happened to me three times in the last six month (I am having a hard time right now to get over it ) and all three girls gave me the feeling that this would end in a wonderful relationship but after meeting them (one after the other! ) for a while all were saying something like "we met at the complete wrong moment - I am still thinking about my Ex-boyfriend and I need my time..."!

I don't know which is worse that they don't fancy you or all three are equally unoriginal! !!

[badidea]

Originally posted by voodoo:
I don't know which is worse that they don't fancy you or all three are equally unoriginal! !!

I think they were equally unoriginal because something really weird is/was going on...
...I met all of them in the same bar
...I met them at about the same time (at about 5-6 o'clock in the morning - different date though )
...I was there everytime on my own and didn't really want to go there (for different reasons)
...I always thought "Wow, what is such a nice girl doing this late allone here?!?"
...and finally it was very unusual for me to fall in love three times in six month!

I am pretty sure now that one of MY ex-girlfriends knows a witch or is one herself and did something very bad to my mojo!
Maybe it is Voodoo?

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by Phat Bastard:
I've known this girl at the building I work in for almost three years.

You lose. Forget her.

Originally posted by Phat Bastard:
What would you do in this situation?

I wouldn't be in that situation. Under no circumstances must your "admiration" for a female last longer than the time it takes for you to walk up to her and ask where she wants to go when you take her out.

This is gonna be harsh, but next time don't be such a girl about asking a girl out. Women are attracted to men and male qualities, not passive girly types. That means you taking the lead and her being bowled over by your leadership qualities.

Short fat ugly bald old guys don't get the chicks because they're rich - they get the chicks because the leadership "features" of their personality required for getting rich are the same manly "features" that chicks like.

If you really want this girl it's maybe still possible - if you get yourself some serious hair on your chest!



Note: Uncle Sherwie is right.

[BoomStick]

Reality.


What does she look like?


What do you look like?


Women are superficial.
Either you look like what they want or you have alot of money.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
This is gonna be harsh, but next time don't be such a girl about asking a girl out. Women are attracted to men and male qualities, not passive girly types. That means you taking the lead and her being bowled over by your leadership qualities.

That might be true for some women, but with most of the ones I know, that would result in immediately blowing any chance you ever had! But, like voodoo said, there's a difference between Europe and America - most girls and women I know would be offended if a guy asked them out on a date.

[palmberg]

Always

Be

Closing

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by Ois�n:
That might be true for some women, but with most of the ones I know, that would result in immediately blowing any chance you ever had! But, like voodoo said, there's a difference between Europe and America - most girls and women I know would be offended if a guy asked them out on a date.

I trust that you're referring to the US rather than China (as in your location box). All I can say is:

How the heck does that work then? Do all the guys line up against the nightclub wall and wait to be asked, like little pet dogs waiting to be taken home from the pound?

I suspect that this isn't a difference in the women (as they all have the same genetic programming) but rather a difference in the way men perceive their role, resulting in a different social dynamic.

I've seen a couple of US TV shows recently (i.e. "Perfect Match: New York") and they did seem to illustrate quite a large difference in approaches. Most of the guys I saw seemed to be acting passively, like girls. Very odd.

For those not terminally confused, every straight woman is programmed to respond well to a leading man, regardless of his looks or status. Society may try to hide this fact in the headlong rush into gender equality, but it's there all the same. Those "offended" women are only offended on the outside - on the inside they'll be quite pleased with the offer.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
I trust that you're referring to the US rather than China (as in your location box).

Denmark, actually.

How the heck does that work then? Do all the guys line up against the nightclub wall and wait to be asked, like little pet dogs waiting to be taken home from the pound?

Not quite, no. In most cases, it will be more like getting to talk to someone, finding out that you hit it off well with them, and at some point in a conversation simply saying something like, "Do you want to go grab something to eat or something?"

I might have been unclear before - it's not the fact that a guy is asking a girl to spend time with him in order to see if there's a possibility for a relationship that offends them. It's the "American way" of asking a girl out on a date that they find offensive. The way where the guy sets himself up to be this knight in shining armour who must entertain and "provide for" the girl.

I suspect that this isn't a difference in the women (as they all have the same genetic programming) but rather a difference in the way men perceive their role, resulting in a different social dynamic.

Obviously.

I've seen a couple of US TV shows recently (i.e. "Perfect Match: New York") and they did seem to illustrate quite a large difference in approaches. Most of the guys I saw seemed to be acting passively, like girls. Very odd.

To you perhaps. To many people, the opposite is odd. I would feel extremely odd having to be "leading" towards anyone I wanted to ask out.

For those not terminally confused, every straight woman is programmed to respond well to a leading man, regardless of his looks or status. Society may try to hide this fact in the headlong rush into gender equality, but it's there all the same. Those "offended" women are only offended on the outside - on the inside they'll be quite pleased with the offer.

That may be - a part of them may very well be flattered and pleased - but as long as they don't let that part be the more important part, the result is the same: rejection.

They might also easily respond well to a "leading" man later on, say, once a relationship is established; but even then only in certain situations. Just as most (straight) men I know don't react well to the kind of girl/woman who constantly plays the damsel-in-distress part (to go with the knight above), although in some situations they can be quite flattered by it.

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by Ois�n:
Denmark, actually.

Hmmm... Must be differences in Euro women then. Mind you, Scandanavian women do have a reputation for being hard to chat up.

Originally posted by Ois�n:
Not quite, no. In most cases, it will be more like getting to talk to someone, finding out that you hit it off well with them, and at some point in a conversation simply saying something like, "Do you want to go grab something to eat or something?"

OK... Now here's my method: Same thing, but "I'm hungry. Where are we going to go to grab something to eat?". Thus, you're leading them. Hasn't failed yet.

Originally posted by Ois�n:
I might have been unclear before - it's not the fact that a guy is asking a girl to spend time with him in order to see if there's a possibility for a relationship that offends them. It's the "American way" of asking a girl out on a date that they find offensive. The way where the guy sets himself up to be this knight in shining armour who must entertain and "provide for" the girl.

I have no idea what the "American way" is (and therefore haven't really got a clue what you're talking about). I'm English, so use the English way.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
OK... Now here's my method: Same thing, but "I'm hungry. Where are we going to go to grab something to eat?". Thus, you're leading them. Hasn't failed yet.

Well, I'd say that's exactly where many Danish girls would draw the line... the reply would quite likely be something like, "Ehh... so you just assume that I'm going with you? Think again" - offended visit to ladies' room accompanied by 25 closest girlfriends follows. (Her, not you!)

I have no idea what the "American way" is (and therefore haven't really got a clue what you're talking about). I'm English, so use the English way.

Think any American teen movie made in the past many years in Hollywood. That's what I meant by the "American way" (okay, not that bad of course, note the quotation marks) - the whole wear-a-tux-pick-the-girl-up-in-a-limo-cater-to-the-girl-in-every-way blablabla routine. (Yes, I know it's unrealistic even for Americans, but since when are stereotypes realistic?).

Isn't the English way the one where you say, "I say, miss, it is nigh on tea time! May I have the honour of escorting you to the nearest tea pavillion for some afternoon tea and homemade buns?"

[OB1]

Don't ask her out to dinner/movies or any of that stuff. Nobody enjoys those played out rituals. You're obviously already spending some time with her if - "It's crazy how often her and I say "that's exactly how I think!". Doesn't the conversation ever swing around what you're both doing that weekend? Or her needing help with something? If you can see her out of work in a cool, friendly way, and give her chance to relax around you, you'll soon get a good idea about how she feels. + She gets to see how cool you are. Or, you might get some casual sex. And another f ck-buddy is never a bad thing is it?

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by Ois�n:
Well, I'd say that's exactly where many Danish girls would draw the line... the reply would quite likely be something like, "Ehh... so you just assume that I'm going with you? Think again" - offended visit to ladies' room accompanied by 25 closest girlfriends follows. (Her, not you!)

Heh. The trick is to get her while she ain't got her "jury" in tow.

Note to self: Head to Denmark and try my luck sometime. Hmmm. Fresh valkyrie!

Originally posted by Ois�n:
Isn't the English way the one where you say, "I say, miss, it is nigh on tea time! May I have the honour of escorting you to the nearest tea pavillion for some afternoon tea and homemade buns?"

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Heh. The trick is to get her while she ain't got her "jury" in tow.

*sigh*

So na�ve...

The "jury" is always there! You may not be able to see them, they may even be busy leading lives of their own in completely different places, but once the signal for the Ladies' Room Ritual goes off (note: this signal is invisible to men), they will be there sooner than you can say, "Wanna come see my etchings?"!

Note to self: Head to Denmark and try my luck sometime. Hmmm. Fresh valkyrie!

Bring plasters.

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by Ois�n:
*sigh*

So na�ve...

Originally posted by Ois�n:
The "jury" is always there! You may not be able to see them, they may even be busy leading lives of their own in completely different places, but once the signal for the Ladies' Room Ritual goes off (note: this signal is invisible to men), they will be there sooner than you can say, "Wanna come see my etchings?"!

No no no no no. It's "when do you want to come and see my etchings?"!

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
No no no no no. It's "when do you want to come and see my etchings?"!

Even worse! That one's so long that not only will the jury be there before you get the whole sentence out; she will be all the way behind the closed and impenetrable doors of the ladies' room, and you will be left speaking your Leading Man's sentence into thin air (or worse, the very buff bouncer who comes to check out why there's a guy talking into thin air)!

[badidea]

ROTFL!!!!!
Ois�n, Sherwin, thanks a lot guys, this thread is getting really good!!!!

[phoenixboy]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
MITCHELL'S PATENTED LOVE REALITY�
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

you're teh winnar!!1!!!!

[phoenixboy]

Originally posted by Phat Bastard:
...loves me like I love her, should I bother allowing myself to love her and think about her all the time?

no, phat bastard, you shouldn't.

if you really like her that much, ask her out on a date. if she hesitates even for a second, forget her!!! once again, forget her!!! move on in life. don't waste a second of your precious time on people that don't return your feelings.

if she decides to go out on a date with you (don't make it obvious! that you are asking her out on a "date"). keep cool. crack a couple of jokes to break the ice, and never EVAR mention that you are in love with her (chances are, she already knows ). and don't be an arrogant macho either...

from there on follow mitchell's advice.

best of luck to you!

[memento]

question: How old are both of you?

I've known a number of situations where, as women go through their 20s, they realize that a decent looking but wonderful man is far better than the self-centered hunk. They realize that they love someone for the person that they are and not the tanktop that they wear. I know at least 3 women who are close to my age (33) who would jump on a chance to date me, but they all got into bum relationships based on appearances and not the person. (incidentally 2 of the 3 are HOT! )

So I'm thinking that if you're both like 25 or something then she might just realize that your wife/husband should also be your best friend and give it a shot. But you owe it to yourself to try. There's nothing that I've found to be more regrettable than letting something like this go unanswered.

[AppleCello]

Europe, USA? ya hell ya there are differences...

I think I aggree that in the states its usually a more direct, confident approach that works. Thats not to say its the only way. But thats about how I always acted. Here in Paris? Oh wow is it not that at all. If you do that here, people will look at you funny as if you are a bizarre creature (you kind of are in their minds, being foreign, but play this to your advantage).

anyhow, In Paris at least, it seems like much more of a game. The seduction is whats important. being witty and smart but not an a*shole or macho. The focus is definitely on the dance around the subject and hardly as much on the date itself i'd say. By the time you are out wtih the girl, she already has a certain level of trust or confidence in you.

Speaking of which, im headed out for coffee tomorrow with a "colleague" to continue and Oh So Intriguing discussion

Best,

P

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
I trust that you're referring to the US rather than China (as in your location box). All I can say is:

How the heck does that work then?

Good question, and I'll be happy to answer you (50+ remember )

1. Walk up to the next girl you'd like to have for the night on the dancefloor, then take her home and shag.

2. If you're going to school with a girl you fancy make sure you meet her at a party and charm her.

3. Make an obvious pass at a girl, then stop rather abruptly - become her friend and then meet her at a party.

4. Go with a girl you fancy abroad.

5. If you work with a girl then you are f*ucked. People in Scando take their carrier way above sex.

6. Be where she is. It all comes down to that.

[voodoo]

Not to forget:

A: Do you want a cup of coffee?

B: I'll walk you home.

C: Kiss her.

[AppleCello]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Not to forget:

A: Do you want a cup of coffee?

B: I'll walk you home.

C: Kiss her.

Right on! Thanks for the reminder...

[Oisín]

Originally posted by AppleCello:
In Paris it seems like much more of a game.

I think that sums it up pretty well, actually:

In the US, it's a ritual, a set of roles to be played out.
In France, it's a game; you're the hunter, she's the target.
In Scandinavia (well, Denmark), it's a sensible agreement seen to be of mutual benefit to both parties.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Ois�n:
I think that sums it up pretty well, actually:

In the US, it's a ritual, a set of roles to be played out.
In France, it's a game; you're the hunter, she's the target.
In Scandinavia, it's a sensible agreement seen to be of mutual benefit to both parties.

Fixed.

[phoenixboy]

Originally posted by Ois�n:
In Scandinavia (well, Denmark), it's a sensible agreement seen to be of mutual benefit to both parties.

that sounds very very "sterile"...

[Oisín]

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
that sounds very very "sterile"...

Exactly.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Ois�n:
Exactly.

Well to be fair there is an entertaining randomness in the whole thing.

Somehow I never get enough - although it wears the soul.

[AppleCello]

Originally posted by Ois�n:

In France, it's a game; you're the hunter, she's the target.

Wow. you know that some of my french buddies actually use that word: Target. Just like that. "Target," when they talk about their current crush or interest...

hmm...

P

[Sherwin]

The French have it right (for once!).

Of course, Uncle Sherwie hasn't had to chat up a girl for years. They chat Sherwie up.