[tumblemonster]

I have a 1.25Ghz G4 Rev A powerbook. I just got my new Powerbook G4 15inch with the new high resolution display. Even before directly comparing the two displays, I noticed that the new PBs display has very noticable horizontal lines visible between rows of pixels. Comparing it to the old display, I find the older display, while lower resolution, to be of much higher quality and sharpness. It looks as though the pixels in the new display are smaller and less densly packed. I am a graphic designer and video editor, and I find the horizontal lines incredibly distracting. They very visibly effect the quality of the image, especially when viewing Photographs and video. Has anyone else noticed this, or is there something wrong with my display?

Thanks

-Jason

[inkhead]

Obviously the display you were looking at sucked. I have the new model, and the old model, and the new display has no lines. The old one has dark boxes around the pixels.....

The new 17" powerbook however has the same horrible effect that many of the newier 17" lcds have... a glowning bottom border (where your dock is by default) It's very noticeable

[Tesseract]

On a medium (60%ish) gray background, I notice fine horizontal lines between the pixels. I haven't found it terribly distracting so far. You aren't the only one though.

[tumblemonster]

Ink - THe display Im looking at and referring to is the display on my new machine. The older g4 book's display looks better.

-jason

[striker100]

Is it possible the display on your new Powerbook is defective?

[tumblemonster]

I'm wondering if that might be the case. I'm heading in to the Local Apple Store to look at the display models and see if those displays look the same. There is also some kind of rythmic thunk coming from the hard drive...
-jason

[inkhead]

Your displays are for sure defective. I'd throw a fit if there were lines, I do pretty detailed imaging and this would kill me. A good test is use the default color sync profile, then fill with 50% gray in photoshop. If you see fine lines, your display is bad.

[tumblemonster]

Thanks Inkhead. I deffinately have a defective display. I can see it everywhere, and noticed it immediately, but it's deffinately obvious with solid colors.

-Jason

[tumblemonster]

Im at the Apple Store now. The lines are evident on the display model as well, which does not bode welll for the graphic designer. I'm in a long line to speak the with Support guys. I'm very afraid I'll be sending it back. The display like this is unworkable for a graphic designer.

-Jason

[IAmMeIAm]

I too have a new 15", and it has the lines as well. At first I thought I might just be seeing things, as it wasn't at all visible on certain colors (bright reds, for example), but then I tried watching a DVD on it and they were extremely, extremely obvious. Until reading this thread, I'd just assumed I was being overly picky, and they weren't as bad as I thought.

Not enough to stop me from enjoying the 'book (it is my first Mac, after all), but sort of a disappointment.

[inkhead]

anyone post a picture? I'm not seeing the issue, and I can take pictures if you need.

[IAmMeIAm]

I took some pictures, but apparently my USB cable's gone bad, as I can't get my computer to recognize my camera, so I can't get them onto the computer.


The lines apparently aren't overly obvious in most settings, as nobody who's looked at the computer aside from me has noticed them, but now that I know they're there I have a hard time un-seeing them.

I'm curious to know how things ended up for the original poster--if there's a way to get a line-free display, I'd be thrilled.

[Fusion]

They are on mine as well but there is no way you could notice them in a picture... they really do not bother me at all and sometimes I even find they make the display look a little "sharper"

[tumblemonster]

According to the Apple people, these displays are exactly how they are supposed to be. I compared it side by side the the new 17 inch and the old 15 inch, and you can deffinately see a quality difference. You can also see it while editing digital video. You lose lighting highlights in moving video on this display, and in fact lose sharpness. I noticed this issue right away, but then I do a lot of grpahics and video work. I'm sending my machine back for return tomorrow morning. I'll either buy a 17inch, or more likely fix my old 15inch.

-jason

[tumblemonster]

According to the Apple people, these displays are exactly how they are supposed to be. I compared it side by side the the new 17 inch and the old 15 inch, and you can deffinately see a quality difference. You can also see it while editing digital video. You lose lighting highlights in moving video on this display, and in fact lose sharpness. I noticed this issue right away, but then I do a lot of grpahics and video work. I'm sending my machine back for return tomorrow morning. I'll either buy a 17inch, or more likely fix my old 15inch.

-jason

[LoRdKaLiBaH]

Its just one thing after another with tehse new powerbooks.

Problems with backlighting on 17 inch
Flicker in lower 1/3rd of screen
Screwed up audio when things flicker
And now Display lines that are NORMAL?

Apple really rushed these things out of the door it looks like. Maybe they losing their touch for details.

[John123]

Originally Posted by LoRdKaLiBaH

Its just one thing after another with tehse new powerbooks.

Problems with backlighting on 17 inch
Flicker in lower 1/3rd of screen
Screwed up audio when things flicker
And now Display lines that are NORMAL?

Apple really rushed these things out of the door it looks like. Maybe they losing their touch for details.

Rushed them out the door? After 9 months since the last update, and given how much bitching people are doing about the minute nature of this update, that's kind of funny.

Anyway, we should all remember that by and large, people come here to complain. People for whom things are going great are less likely to frequent these boards.

[danny_gasperini]

I have previewed 2 of the shipping 17" PowerBooks with the 1680x1050 displays. Some things to note compared with the 1440x900 display is the following:

1. The 1680 display is brighter (although not the 46% Apple is claiming) than the 1440 display, but only when viewed at exactly right angles in vertical and horizontal planes. There is a huge brightness shift when you adjust viewing angle, even slightly, that the 1440 display does not suffer from.

2. The colour depth is much poorer on the 1680 display. The 1440 model has much deeper reds and bluer blues and greener greens. Colour calibration will not sufficiently compensate.

3. There is a VERY noticeable light bar that runs across the bottom half an inch of the display on the 1680 models.

4. Unfortunately, both of the 1680 model PowerBooks have an annoying intermittent flicker in the top or botttom 1/3 of the screen (as others have reported) which is very random but very noticeable. Completely unnaceptable.

5. Finally, although the screen resolution has been increased, the video hardware to drive the increased pixel density has not been upgraded. The effect is that the UI seems slightly slower on the 1680 PowerBooks. Exposé is not as smooth, the Dashboard effect is not as smoot, and dragging large windows around the screen is noticeably slower.

[LoRdKaLiBaH]

Originally Posted by John123

Rushed them out the door? After 9 months since the last update, and given how much bitching people are doing about the minute nature of this update, that's kind of funny.

Anyway, we should all remember that by and large, people come here to complain. People for whom things are going great are less likely to frequent these boards.

That would assume they spent 9 monthes working on these.
People come here to complain- but rightly so when your dropping anywhere from 2 to 3 thousand on a laptop.

It was like these were an afterthought.. hmm what can we do to put something, anything out the door to calm the masses until we can get Intel ones working...

Its like they dont even have a Quality Assurance program anymore

[John123]

Originally Posted by LoRdKaLiBaH

That would assume they spent 9 monthes working on these.
People come here to complain- but rightly so when your dropping anywhere from 2 to 3 thousand on a laptop.

It was like these were an afterthought.. hmm what can we do to put something, anything out the door to calm the masses until we can get Intel ones working...

Its like they dont even have a Quality Assurance program anymore

I don't disagree. Mine just arrived today. I don't care much for the display's color saturation. My old 1.5Ghz one was much better. This one has a reddish hue and looks washed out.

[Tesseract]

Change your color profile (Color tab of Displays system preference pane) to anything other than 'Color LCD'. That will take care of the reddish tint.

[robby818]

The "new" 15" on display at the Apple store in the Glendale Galleria also has a magenta/reddish cast to it. (sort of reminded me of the problematic 23" cinema displays--which by the way the glendale store still had on display and the good guys store across the street also has on display)

I calibrated the powerbook but it was still too reddish for my tastes. sitting next to a new 17" powerbook the reddish cast was pretty noticable-the metal on most windows looked too grey. on the bright side- the increased resolution looks great esp. with text which looks very crisp, viewing angles arent so great though.

[VisualForces]

I've got the same issue with my new 15" PB. Called Apple Support last night and will be sending it in for "repair". Here's a pic of what the lines look like:

[Tesseract]

Yeah, that's about what my lines look like.
I'm not going to do anything about them. My decision is based on various reports that Apple won't replace the display (including above in this thread), the inconvenience of going to an Apple Store, and not wanting to give up my baby for a week for repairs.

[John123]

Ditto on the lines. Great shot being able to capture that.

It's annoying, but not the end of the world. Wouldn't like to have to make compromises, but I think I'd take it for the higher resolution.

[VisualForces]

Originally Posted by John123

Ditto on the lines. Great shot being able to capture that.

It's annoying, but not the end of the world. Wouldn't like to have to make compromises, but I think I'd take it for the higher resolution.

It's not a big issue if you don't depend on graphics to make a living. If I was just surfing the web and using email it wouldn't be a big deal. But this is a PowerBook...designed for "Pros"...to do professional work. I need it for photography, graphics, and some video work. It doesn't make sense that they would increase resolution while decreasing image quality. I'd honestly rather have the lower resolution if it gave me a sharper image...but again...it just doesn't make sense.

[motherduce]

Total crappola. Very disappointed in this, I had my beautiful 15" all saved in my cart and everything.

[pete]

me too. so sad. Are they ALL like this?

[Fusion]

Yeah they are and I don't understand why it is such a big deal. I do graphic work for a living as well and it has not affected me in the slightest.

So... the question is, exactly how is this affecting your work? Are you having a problem identifying certain pixels? What exactly is it?

The lines are slight and in NO WAY compare with pixels, meaning any graphic work doesn't suffer. I just don't get what all the whining is about.

As I said before, I kinda actually like the lines, they make the screen look really sharp... 99% of the time they are COMPLETLEY unnoticable.

[VisualForces]

Originally Posted by Fusion

So... the question is, exactly how is this affecting your work? Are you having a problem identifying certain pixels? What exactly is it?

1. Older PBs have clearer screens

2. New iBooks have more solid screens (I traded mine for the new PB)

3. When working with web graphics, you see lines in every midtone...it's hard to tell if it's the actual graphic or the monitor. This forces you to check it on another computer...see #1 or 2

4. Video. If you have to edit video, it makes it look like an interlaced problem.


Bottom line is it shouldn't be this way. Previous models had screens that were more solid in color. A newer model should be as good or better looking. It may not be a problem to you, but it is to me...especially when the iBook I sent back for this PB looked better as far as the lines go. Apple supposedly markets to professionals with these "Power" lines, but this is a step backward IMHO. I'd rather have quality over quantity where pixels are concerned.

[mrmister]

Just saw one in the store. Man, that's annoying--as if we needed ANOTHER reason why the current PowerBook is a terrible value proposition.

[iomatic]

Huh. I didn't notice it until I was a few inches away from the screen. Otherwise it looks fine for me. And I depend on graphics for a living also. I definitely would not use a portable LCD for any type of serious photography work though.

Originally Posted by VisualForces

It's not a big issue if you don't depend on graphics to make a living. If I was just surfing the web and using email it wouldn't be a big deal. But this is a PowerBook...designed for "Pros"...to do professional work. I need it for photography, graphics, and some video work. It doesn't make sense that they would increase resolution while decreasing image quality. I'd honestly rather have the lower resolution if it gave me a sharper image...but again...it just doesn't make sense.

[Fusion]

Originally Posted by VisualForces

1. Older PBs have clearer screens

I had an older PB, and while the screen was clearer in some way (lack of lines?), I'd take a higher resolution any day of the week.

2. New iBooks have more solid screens (I traded mine for the new PB)

My wife has an iBook and I find the screen gastly compared to the PB. The viewing angle, the brightness, etc... In exactly what way is the iBook screen more solid??

3. When working with web graphics, you see lines in every midtone...it's hard to tell if it's the actual graphic or the monitor. This forces you to check it on another computer...see #1 or 2

Again, this one is where I get confused. It's not hard to tell if it is the monitor at all. I've never actually worked on a graphic and wondered "Is this a solid color or striped graphic?" Lol. I know what it is. On top of that, you don't need to check another computer, IF, and I say only IF, the lines were THAT bad, you could simply zoom to realize that it was the screen. But again, they are NOT THAT bad... highly exagerated.

4. Video. If you have to edit video, it makes it look like an interlaced problem.

I don't edit video, so I can't comment too much on this, BUT, I have a really hard time someone could mistake that for an interlace problem, especially when you would see it in the rest of the GUI as well, but again, this is only if you could actually notice it, which 99 percent of the time, you can't. The lines are so fine, etc... doesn't look like any problem, just looks like a sharp screen.

Bottom line is it shouldn't be this way. Previous models had screens that were more solid in color. A newer model should be as good or better looking. It may not be a problem to you, but it is to me...especially when the iBook I sent back for this PB looked better as far as the lines go. Apple supposedly markets to professionals with these "Power" lines, but this is a step backward IMHO. I'd rather have quality over quantity where pixels are concerned.

I don't know how it "should be." Maybe I am just tired of all the complaining... it's not like it has always been this way, as you said yourself, the previous PowerBooks did not have these lines, so if they really are that much of a bother, get the previous generation. What would you be missing out on, DDR2 ram?

[VisualForces]

Buy an older model so I can have a better image? That makes sense to you? Please tell me you're kidding...

The iBook I just sent back had more "solid" color meaning images weren't chopped up with lines. I work with hi-res photos down to a pixel level and there is no reason that a newer model PowerBook should have a poorer looking screen than an older model. I'm sorry, but I'm not paying $2,000 for it. I have no problems sending it back or selling it if they can't fix it. I will buy an older model if I have to...I just wanted to keep from doing that.

For the record, I have used a Mac for about 15 years and never once complained about any of them. I've never even had to use Apple Care. I'm well aware what Apple's quality is like and this screen doesn't live up to it. If you consider demanding the same reputable quality they have provided me over 15 years to be whining then that's your opinion. This is a professional product and therefore should live up to it.

Call it complaining, whining or whatever you want. There are people that get paid to spot issues like this...they're called Quality Assurance.

[gangster]

all of this makes the entry level pb look pretty good! a smaller screen may be an acceptable trade-off for now.

[John123]

You can't possibly mistake it for an interlacing problem. That's ridiculous. I've done tons of work with video compression, and it's not even close.

Look, for 90% of us, it's a mild nuisance but not a big deal. It's still sharp, and you can fit a lot more on the screen.

Sure I miss the more "solid" displays the old one, and yeah, I felt like color saturation was better. But man, given that I got this thing for under $1700 after selling my old one, I feel like I got a bargain.

[jfelbab]

My screen doesn't look like the pic that VisualForces posted. I don't see the lines that are being discussed. Here is what my screen looks like at native resolution.

Jim

[Tesseract]

Is that a photo or a screenshot? This issue is with the physical LCD panel, so it will only show up in an actual photo.

[jfelbab]

Ok. Here is a photo at a slight enlargement. Still no lines.

Jim

[Tesseract]

jfelbab,

I think you have the lines. I zoomed in quite a bit on your photo to make sure I wasn't just seeing the lines on my own display, and they are definitely present in the photo.

If you can't see them, that's great. You have nothing to worry about.

EDIT: or maybe not. I looked again and now I'm not so sure. Maybe you got lucky.

[Tesseract]

Someone over at MacRumors found out that the problem is caused by alternate rows of pixels being slightly darker. He checked this by creating a solid color photoshop file and then filling a layer with 5% opaque one-pixel rulings. Nudging the layer with rulings one pixel at a time will alternately enhance and diminish the visibility of the display lines.

I duplicated this technique and found the same thing.
The lines are getting more and more annoying as I continue to notice them. I think I will call Apple later this week. I'll let you guys know what comes of it.

[mrmister]

Yep, I see the lines.

[Ryan1524]

i can see it too. i guess people who are not used to seeing that deep or even looking for the lines wouldn't have found them. ignorance is bliss in this case. i just got a friend to buy a new 15" PB. i hope he's one of those people who don't give a frack about these lines, otherwise i'd feel really bad for going full blast on my apple-is-awesome sermon.

[foosh]

Originally Posted by Fusion

if they really are that much of a bother, get the previous generation. What would you be missing out on, DDR2 ram?

Actually the RAM speeds are the same for the latest PB and its predecessor -- 333MHz. Using DDR2 RAM in the newer ones at a lower-than-max clock speed is one of the ways they saved power to give the supposed "extra hour of battery life."

That makes me wonder... If they're trying to improve battery life, is it possible that they MEANT to make every other row of pixels slightly dimmer, thereby reducing power usage and all the while reassuring themselves "oh, you can hardly notice those lines" ?? ...that's assuming that the lines are created by alternating brightness and not some sort of color issue.

And yes jfelbab, I definitely see the lines in your pic. Thanks for posting it!

EDIT: I've posted a photo showing the pixels on my 1280x854 PB (the one before the high-res display model).

[VisualForces]

Foosh, thanks for posting that. The lines definitely aren't there. A co-worker of mine has the older 17" PB and there are no lines...the screen looks great.

I talked to different Apple Care tech last that told me this does in-fact seem to be normal for this model and that if I sent mine in it would almost definitely come back looking the same. He said that a "catch" has been setup at Apple Retail stores for people to come in and report the issue. They are also wanting to know about other issues such as the "snow" in certain black images (mine does that too...check out http://www.walkthelinethemovie.com/ and look at the middle image. My PB shows an insane amount of white pixels in his suit).

Speaking of, foosh, can you check out that link and tell me if his suit is solid black or if there is white specks all over it? Every monitor and OS I have tested doesn't show it...just my new PB. Even the clock widget has white specks all over the bottom gradient. Does yours?

Also, my speakers pop from time to time...even with no sound playing.

It's looking more and more like I'm going to return mine and buy an older model.

[iomatic]

I don't see white pixels in his suit, but I see mottling--it looks to be part of the image. Again, I'm usually using the PowerBook from 1ft. or 2ft. away. Can't see it. I mean, it's there, but if I'm up uncomfortably close, yeah. No complaints other than the RAM bug.

[iomatic]

dupe

[VisualForces]

Yeah...I checked it out on an older 17" and I see the white specs a little, but not as bad...probably part of the compression that gets exaggerated on a laptop screen.

After doing side-by-side comparisons this morning to an older PowerBook, I'm definitely going back if they can't fix this issue. The images are just better looking.

[Fusion]

Originally Posted by VisualForces

Buy an older model so I can have a better image? That makes sense to you? Please tell me you're kidding...

No, I am not kidding and of couse it makes sense to me, I would not have suggested it otherwise. To be honest, I don't think Apple is ever going to see it as a problem like you do. A good 90 percent of the consumers that buy them will probably never notice and of the other 10 that do, I doubt hardly many of them will complain, as I will not.

So I don't believe that you really have a choice if it is that big of deal to youl. Look, I am not suggesting that you are wrong about the whole thing, only trying to point out that any discussion on this forum is simply that, discussion. It's not going to change the situation or help the matter any futher. So, if it bothers you that much, you are not left with too many choices, baring hooking up an external monitor or completley getting a different type of computer, simply getting the older model seems like the smartest decision as you are really only giving up a bit of battery life and screen resolution. It's up to you to decide if that trade off is realy worth it, but from how you describe how important this problem is for you, it sounds like it very well may be.

The iBook I just sent back had more "solid" color meaning images weren't chopped up with lines. I work with hi-res photos down to a pixel level and there is no reason that a newer model PowerBook should have a poorer looking screen than an older model. I'm sorry, but I'm not paying $2,000 for it. I have no problems sending it back or selling it if they can't fix it. I will buy an older model if I have to...I just wanted to keep from doing that.

And I completley understand where you are coming from. To be honest, I feel you are being a bit exagerated and silly about the whole issue, but I don't know you. Who am I to tell you how happy you should be with a product etc...? You have to decide that for yourself, and if using an iBook with no lines is a better solution for your work than using a PowerBook with them, then so be it. It certainly isn't the route that I would have chosen, but again, I am not you.

For the record, I have used a Mac for about 15 years and never once complained about any of them. I've never even had to use Apple Care. I'm well aware what Apple's quality is like and this screen doesn't live up to it. If you consider demanding the same reputable quality they have provided me over 15 years to be whining then that's your opinion. This is a professional product and therefore should live up to it.

That's great, and Apple should be ashamed to treat a loyal customer this way, but... they do. End of story really.

I think you are looking at this from the wrong dirrection. You are looking at this in relation to you and Apple, when really, to be blunt, Apple doesn't give a **** about you. They don't owe you anything and you don't owe them anything. They make a product, market it they way they will, and you as the consumer have the ultimate choice of whether to buy it or not. Now, if you believe they are straight up "lying" in their marketing as the PowerBook as a professional product because there are lines in the display, then you can certainly file a lawsuit, and if you find enough people, make it a CA, but I really don't think you will get that far. Especially because Apple will find myriads of professionals like me who will atest that the lines in the display, while noticeable, do not affect my work in any sort or fashion.

My comments on whining are not merely dirrected at you but rather the people complaining that the updates were not what they "should have been." As for you, it sounds like you were happy about the update, but feel as if the update is not "really" what they said it would be, because of this problem. However, the product doesn't have to live up to anything but itself. They could market an old Pismo as the new PowerBook and get away with it. It doesn't mean it would sell, but the product itself would be rightly justified in being for sale. And as discussion on these boards leads me to believe, some people actually would buy it.

Call it complaining, whining or whatever you want. There are people that get paid to spot issues like this...they're called Quality Assurance.

I know that issues on forums will always be more prevelant, simply because the happy people do not come to report here on how happy they are, BUT, I wouldn't put any stock in that department at Apple. I have bought 3 PowerBooks within the last 4 weeks and the first two both had some major quality issues. From a defective headphone port, to a bubble in the trackpad, to a dead and hissing hard drive and so on, I'm not really sure their quality assurance department is their first priority.

However, something as big as the screen, I can assure you that someone at QA most undoubtly noticed the lines and determined that it was in Apple's best interest to ship them anyway. Because it's not about shipping a perfect computer, it's about finding the balance between making customers happy and being profitable. I am sure they could have gone out and made another contract with a different screen manufacturer to produce line-less screens, but wouldn't that cost them more money? Say, I don't know, more money than the loss-of-sales attributed to consumers who would even notice the current screens. I certainly believe so and I'm an ignorant fool. How much more would someone in the QA department know this to make this decision. I'm not sure this is something that has simply "slipped throught he cracks" but rather something that was deemed okay.

I'm really sorry you are not happy with them, and I'm really sorry you cannot work effectively on them. But out of all the choices available to you, I still think getting a previous version PB is the smartest one. And that is really all we can do here, suggest to you our opinions on your best choice, because none of us work for Apple and none of us can make the lines go away. All factors considered, the previous generation 15" is still a great machine.

[foosh]

Fusion, your healthy dose of pragmatism is appreciated.

But the bottom line is that a professional-grade notebook, with a (presumably) professional-grade display, should not have pixel rows that alternate in brightness or color or whatever it is.

You've decided that it's futile to "fight the machine," that we're all better off accepting things as they're handed to us and not questioning or being assertive... And that may be practical. But I am personally grateful for those who demand more, from Apple or from any other service/goods provider, because they're the ones that drive the bar up for the rest of us.