[ShortcutToMoncton]

Why not? Seriously, I think the decrease in interest in the Lounge can be at least partially attributed to the separation of these two. The Lounge is pretty much dead. It's not like 5 years ago or whenever, where there'd be umpteen new threads a day and it was impossible to keep track of what was going on, and heated debates were spilling all across the Lounge. Now we've got two separate sleepy forums, instead of one moderately busy one. I feel that one would feel far less "dead" than the current setup.

Yes, I've had myself banned from discussion in the Pol Lounge, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. I would imagine that some people would rather just not see the more firey stuff that happens in the Pol Lounge, but at this point I think most of the "soul" has been sucked out of the Lounge - it's a pretty dry, boring place.

[Athens]

The dead forum is partially attributed to macnn using facebook to login for comments. People don't need forum accounts any more which requires a separate login.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Athens 

The dead forum is partially attributed to macnn using facebook to login for comments. People don't need forum accounts any more which requires a separate login.

Huh?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Huh?

A lot of people had to make forum accounts to comment on stories before. When they linked the comments to facebook that pretty much ended a lot of new sign ups for the forums. Because you have to still create a account separate for the forums a lot of guests just don't bother.

[Person Man]

I am completely against merging the political lounge with the regular lounge.

[turtle777]

-t

[The Final Dakar]

Wait, didn't shortcut get so fed up with the stupidity of the PL he asked to be banned from it, and now he wants to combine the two?

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Why not? Seriously, I think the decrease in interest in the Lounge can be at least partially attributed to the separation of these two.

Uh, no. The Lounge thrived for many years with the PL iron curtain.

[Lateralus]

I'm more in favor of getting rid of the PWL entirely. It's vitriolic by nature.

[Thorzdad]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Wait, didn't shortcut get so fed up with the stupidity of the PL he asked to be banned from it, and now he wants to combine the two?

Maybe he wants us to ban him completely?

FWIW, combining the Lounge and the PWL is never ever ever evar going to happen.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

I'm more in favor of getting rid of the PWL entirely. It's vitriolic by nature.

The threads that make it vitriolical would just end up in the normal lounge then. Was the reason it was created. It would push those that don't want to see those kinds of threads away. And if the response is to ban those that make political posts in the lounge to keep it from occurring then a very lively portion of the population would be gone too.

Everything should be left as is.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Athens 

A lot of people had to make forum accounts to comment on stories before. When they linked the comments to facebook that pretty much ended a lot of new sign ups for the forums. Because you have to still create a account separate for the forums a lot of guests just don't bother.

It took me a while to realize you're talking about comments on the main MacNN site. I forgot it was still around.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

I'm more in favor of getting rid of the PWL entirely. It's vitriolic by nature.

Yes, it's near impossible to get honest discussion, let alone fresh. It's pretty much the same five guys in there.

Not to mention it's a ghost of it's former self as well. Not topics for the (too) numerous republican debates, Herman Cain's incessant lead in the polls, nothing when the DADT repeal date passed?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

I'm more in favor of getting rid of the PWL entirely. It's vitriolic by nature.

This is possibly the dumbest thing I've heard on this subject, thus far. You'd like to...just get rid of political discussion? Why not just castrate the Lounge entirely? I suppose you'd love it if there truly were only a post or two a day, right - that's what MacNN is going for, is it not?

Originally Posted by Thorzdad 

Maybe he wants us to ban him completely?

FWIW, combining the Lounge and the PWL is never ever ever evar going to happen.

I didn't want to participate in the Pol Lounge any more because I've wanted to decrease my involvement around this place, and the Pol Lounge was one of the only places I ever read regularly any more. Almost nothing of substance ever happens in the Lounge nowadays. And why would it? You guys have worked tirelessly to ostracize or castrate most of the people with strong opinions - first by shifting the hot-topic threads to a separate area, and then eventually by bans and other shit. I imagine I'd probably be one of the most vocal people against most of those guys/gals, but at the end of the day those were the people who were doing truly weird and crazy shit. Now they're gone, and we're mostly left with the normal, sane, sarcastic, logical, and almost completely boring people, like me and most of you guys. There's no one left to "stir up trouble", no one left to fly off the handle, no one left who have terribly strong opinions about something one way or the other, no one left who creates crazy or cool things.

I dunno. It's your place, so do with it what you will I guess. Maybe you guys like it that an entire day might go by without a new thread being started. Maybe you like it nice and quiet. That's cool.

But this place is now, mostly, vanilla. Too bad.

[Lateralus]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

This is possibly the dumbest thing I've heard on this subject, thus far. You'd like to...just get rid of political discussion? Why not just castrate the Lounge entirely? I suppose you'd love it if there truly were only a post or two a day, right - that's what MacNN is going for, is it not?

FYI, the PWL was supposed to have been temporary. How it managed to survive beyond the 2004 elections is beyond me.

Many, many boards across the net have a zero-political-discussion policy, for obvious reasons.

[Big Mac]

Bad idea. Things are fine the way they are, IMO. PWL separate for those who want PWL. Merging it back into the Lounge proper would just cause the same problems that used to occur with the Lounge being overwhelmed by political topics. Getting rid of political discussion completely isn't the way to go either, unless you want less activity and interest in the Lounge generally.

[Spheric Harlot]

The original problem was the influx of right-wing morons around the start of the Iraq war (right-wingers aren't morons, but that particular influx of morons was entirely right-wing), who had absolutely nothing to bring to the forum but vitriolic smack-talk attacking anybody who saw through the lies...

[brassplayersrock²]

Not just no, but, HELL NO!

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The original problem was the influx of right-wing morons around the start of the Iraq war (right-wingers aren't morons, but that particular influx of morons was entirely right-wing), who had absolutely nothing to bring to the forum but vitriolic smack-talk attacking anybody who saw through the lies...

To be entirely fair, there was a corresponding influx of loony right-wing-haters around and after that time as well.

But, I just don't see the problems that you guys do, I guess. Back then we literally had thousands of people online during any given moment, with probably hundreds involved in daily Lounge posting. Threads were spiralling out of control and the aforementioned political battle was everywhere. Now, I imagine it would be a good day if we get 25 active users in the Lounge and Pol Lounge at any one time. I bet 25 posts a day would be a decent day for the Lounge and Pol Lounge combined, with no more than 5 or 6 of those bringing a smile to my face. At one time, I'd come here and start howling at the hilarious hi jinx. Now, I almost always wonder why I've wasted my time scanning through the most-uninteresting new threads.

Interestingly, none of you have addressed this in your answers. None of you have said, "you know what? It's perfectly obvious that this place is dying, and we should try to do something about that." You've all said "**** no!" and left it at that. I'm not sure if it's a question of burying your head in the sand, or if you all actually like the MacNN Lounge as it currently stands - quiet, boring, empty, without any flavour, and having almost no appeal to anyone stumbling across it, IMO.

If that's the case, I'm sad.

[ghporter]

I seem to recall the PWL popping up in September or October of 2001 to concentrate the discussion of the 9/11 attacks; I'd been a member for about 5 months then. This may only be my personal experience with it, but we definitely had a separate area for those discussions that far back.

In any case, one thing that sets PWL apart from the regular Lounge is that there are different rules there-rules that allow for less civil discussion. These rules were established (and tweaked) to supposedly allow "difficult" subjects to be discussed without too many complaints that the material was offensive or otherwise uncomfortable. Removing the PWL might drive posters there to the Lounge, but we certainly would not allow PWL-type posts to continue in the regular Lounge. The Lounge rules may require additional effort in enforcement, but the depths to which PWL threads are allowed to fall would NOT be allowed to be plumbed in the Lounge.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Interestingly, none of you have addressed this in your answers. None of you have said, "you know what? It's perfectly obvious that this place is dying, and we should try to do something about that." You've all said "**** no!" and left it at that. I'm not sure if it's a question of burying your head in the sand, or if you all actually like the MacNN Lounge as it currently stands - quiet, boring, empty, without any flavour, and having almost no appeal to anyone stumbling across it, IMO.

Merging the Lounge and PWL will not keep 'NN from dying.
Plenty of people have talked about it in the past years, how 'NN became an over-moderated, steril and overly PC place.

Alas, there's nothing the individual member can do about it.

-t

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I seem to recall the PWL popping up in September or October of 2001 to concentrate the discussion of the 9/11 attacks; I'd been a member for about 5 months then. This may only be my personal experience with it, but we definitely had a separate area for those discussions that far back.

I'm about 95% certain that it didn't come along until at least around the time of the Iraq War. Although, I had a different handle for a few years before my current one and may be mixing the dates a little.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Merging the Lounge and PWL will not keep 'NN from dying.
Plenty of people have talked about it in the past years, how 'NN became an over-moderated, steril and overly PC place.

Alas, there's nothing the individual member can do about it.

-t

Maybe you're right. But I guess my argument is that there's clearly the need for a shake-up; the current model isn't working. Why not try something like this? If it doesn't work or causes problems, then it's easy to reinstate a Pol Lounge.

My biggest beef is with the people in this thread who are saying the rough equivalent of "no! I hated it before!"...as if the current MacNN is anything but a shadow of what it was before.

[turtle777]

I agree. My idea to shake things up is to invite people like Railroader, Rob and Kevin back.
The Lounge was a more fun place when there were more edgier people.\

I mean, for Pete's sake, the Railroader banning was so symptomatic for a Lounge that got converted to the mod's living room.

-t

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Person Man 

I am completely against merging the political lounge with the regular lounge.

Why? I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning; I think I always like your posts and respect what you have to say. But out of mild curiosity, have you visited the Pol Lounge lately? It's pretty much as dead as the regular Lounge, with the occasional flash of excitement. Would it really be so harmful to have 5 active "regular" threads and 5 active "Political" threads in one spot, rather than having them separate as in the current model and having both areas seem completely dead?

On that note, I wonder about requiring [Pol] tags in the title of politically-related threads, so members who are deathly afraid of accidentally reading something controversial might more easily be able to avoid them? Would that be so much more difficult to police than the current method of moving them to another lounge?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

FYI, the PWL was supposed to have been temporary. How it managed to survive beyond the 2004 elections is beyond me.

Many, many boards across the net have a zero-political-discussion policy, for obvious reasons.

Ummm...IIRC the Pol Lounge was supposed to have been temporary to separate political discussion from all the other threads in a busy Lounge and restore some order.

You're acting like political discussion itself was supposed to have been temporary. There's always been such type of discussion for the umpteen years I've been on this board - and I've been on here longer than most of the mods. I don't remember any suggestion whatsoever of that. Please enlighten me.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I agree. My idea to shake things up is to invite people like Railroader, Rob and Kevin back.
The Lounge was a more fun place when there were more edgier people.\

I mean, for Pete's sake, the Railroader banning was so symptomatic for a Lounge that got converted to the mod's living room.

-t

You know, I've never really been sympathetic to the claim that the mods were "destroying" the Lounge, etc. etc. Seemed pretty reactionary and foolish to me.

But the response from some of the mods in this thread has been absolutely surprising to me. It's like they don't care about the "health" of the Lounge at all. Removing all political discussion? I mean...I don't even...what would that do - cause half the remaining active users to disappear? Where does it end? Do they just want the same 23 people left on here, occasionally posting a thread about what movie they recommend or whether some random new technology is cool or not?

I dunno. This thread is bumming me out. I guess I almost never come into this Feedback area and haven't really followed any disucssion about this before. I'm finding it pretty sad that the only response is a "stay the course" answer.

[Thorzdad]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

But the response from some of the mods in this thread has been absolutely surprising to me. It's like they don't care about the "health" of the Lounge at all. Removing all political discussion? I mean...I don't even...what would that do - cause half the remaining active users to disappear? Where does it end? Do they just want the same 23 people left on here, occasionally posting a thread about what movie they recommend or whether some random new technology is cool or not?

Only one mod has suggested removing the PWL here. You're overreacting. I assure you that the Mods and Admins care deeply about the health of the Lounge.

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

I'm finding it pretty sad that the only response is a "stay the course" answer.

Rejecting your single suggestion that we blend the PWL into the main Lounge is not a "stay the course" answer. Perhaps, if you're so concerned about the health of the Lounge, you could try posting some interesting, engaging, non-PWL, items yourself.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Thorzdad 

I assure you that the Mods and Admins care deeply about the health of the Lounge.

Yes, they make sure the Lounge is completely sterile, lest anyone get "infected".

I loved when the Lounge was a dangerous place, not obsessed with being family friendly, letting assholes be assholes if they wanted to be.

Sterile is boring.

-t

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Yes, only Lateralus suggested removing the Pol Lounge - you only suggested that perhaps I wanted to be banned from the Lounge entirely. Soooo...from that I suppose I conclude that "you care deeply"?

Like I said, I haven't followed any previous discussion(s) regarding this matter. But, I haven't noticed a single change in the Lounge, Pol Lounge, or in any other way that MacNN operates over the past 4 or 5 years. So how, exactly, are you not "staying the course" when apparently - and feel free to correct me here - absolutely nothing has changed with respect to how the Lounge or MacNN Forums operates? Am I wrong? If so, please give me a list of things that MacNN/mods/Lounge/etc. have done over the past three years to improve the rapidly declining health of the Lounge. Thanks.

Finally, I'm going to go out on a limb here and speculate that I've contributed to as many "interesting, engaging, etc." threads as anyone else in the Lounge. Your suggestion to post more is a rather weak one, in my opinion; do you think we can make up for the rapidly declining number of active members if the remaining ones all just "post a little more"? In fact, this seems to jive entirely with my above point - what you're suggesting is not a solution. It's a band-aid, and a poor one at that.

[OreoCookie]

Even though the PL was supposed to be a temporary measure, I think the arrangement has worked out quite well to keep the regular Lounge free of distractions by a few threads on political topics. If that's staying on course for ya, then, yes, we're staying on course. Although the way you say it, it has a negative connotation that I don't see here.

Merging two forums with lower traffic into a single forum which aggregates the traffic doesn't make MacNN a more lively venue either, it just masks the decrease in traffic (which the staff is very concerned about).

[Big Mac]

If the staff is concerned about reductions in traffic, they need to coordinate with MacNN news to have the news discussion links point to a new news story discussion forum here. That's what drives so much traffic to forums elsewhere. But I'm guessing you guys already are aware of that issue.

[Thorzdad]

Yes, we are. We communicate this need to the home office often.

[The Final Dakar]

It's been years. It's never going to happen. Seems someone up top is unwilling or unable to do such a thing.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Even though the PL was supposed to be a temporary measure, I think the arrangement has worked out quite well to keep the regular Lounge free of distractions by a few threads on political topics. If that's staying on course for ya, then, yes, we're staying on course. Although the way you say it, it has a negative connotation that I don't see here.

Merging two forums with lower traffic into a single forum which aggregates the traffic doesn't make MacNN a more lively venue either, it just masks the decrease in traffic (which the staff is very concerned about).

I don't mean to make it a "negative connotation" per se, but I guess my point is that the goal of "keeping the regular Lounge free of distrations by a few threads on political topics" no longer seems to apply as it once did.

My memory might not be totally accurate, but I remember 10-25 entirely new Lounge threads a day with hundreds of posts. A significant fraction of those were politically-related threads, and the battles spilled over to other threads as well. In the course of a day an entire page of newly updated threads might be filled. It was almost impossible to keep tabs on anything.

Now, we might have 5 new threads a day split between both forums, and I'd guess that's a high average. Is the danger of "distraction" so very large any more? Are the four updated threads on political topics really going to overshadow the six updated non-political threads?

As of yet, I've received no answer - from any of you - to that question, which I consider to be the important one here.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I agree. My idea to shake things up is to invite people like Railroader, Rob and Kevin back.

What about Abe?

[The Final Dakar]

Perhaps what we need is "Infraction-free Fridays"
nowedon't

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Now, we might have 5 new threads a day split between both forums, and I'd guess that's a high average. Is the danger of "distraction" so very large any more? Are the four updated threads on political topics really going to overshadow the six updated non-political threads?

Yes, they are.

I had myself banned from the Poli Lounge because I care deeply about various issues, and I cannot keep my trap shut when I see posts filled with obvious lies, misrepresentations, complete disregard for human dignity and misanthropic bigotry, or which just plain fly in the face of what I see as undeniable reality.

What little I see when I check out the forums from work, before I log in, is enough to know that I don't want to see it when I'm hanging out.

You could say it's lack of self-restraint, but basically, it's the same reasoning that means I DON'T watch Glenn Beck as a pastime, and I DON'T regularly read the Westboro Baptist website, even though both are readily available a couple of clicks away.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Yes, they make sure the Lounge is completely sterile, lest anyone get "infected".

I loved when the Lounge was a dangerous place, not obsessed with being family friendly, letting assholes be assholes if they wanted to be.

That's not how it was, at all. There was a little more leeway, but the "let assholes be assholes" policy was explicitly instated specifically with the creation of the Political Lounge — with the result that a bunch of regulars could freely be complete assholes, and a large number of truly interesting and passionate pussiesmembers up and left in disgust.

It was UNDERmoderation, not OVERmoderation, that killed the forums (and that whole adtext thing drove out a bunch of the remaining veterans).

That people are banned for being assholes in the regular lounge (as they always have been) probably doesn't matter either way, in terms of membership numbers and activity.

[turtle777]

I disagree.

If you are right, more even more strict moderation would bring the Lounge back to its old glory ? Hardly.

-t

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

You could say it's lack of self-restraint, but basically, it's the same reasoning that means I DON'T watch Glenn Beck as a pastime, and I DON'T regularly read the Westboro Baptist website, even though both are readily available a couple of clicks away.

Very similar to why I had myself banned, as well.

But wouldn't requiring a [POL] tag on political topics be sufficient warning? That you or I don't have the self-control not to reply to the amazing amount of idiotic content that goes into some of those threads - like you I sometimes scan when I'm logged out; the "biggest medical scam" thread right now is absolutely astonishing in itthe stupidity of some of the replies, while some statements I read from conservative types in another thread about how "real estate speculation" was terrible made my free-market fingers itch to reply - is not really a good reason to keep them separate, beyond being a personal source of stress relief.

Basically, your reply is similar to many others here: that having them separate makes my life easier because I don't need to visit the Pol Lounge and thus increase the controversy in my life. That's all well and good, but it also means that there is zero, absolutely zero, controversy in the MacNN Lounge. As I mentioned before, it's completely vanilla.

So why would new people ever visit the Lounge? When someone googles something and arrives at the MacNN Lounge - what would ever make them stick around? The discussion on Amazon's profits? Job's *********gery? The wonder of working with PVC piping?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I disagree.

If you are right, more even more strict moderation would bring the Lounge back to its old glory ? Hardly.

Fallacious argument.

I explained what I think happened; that does NOT mean that reversing that will reverse what happened.

You know, like playing a blues record backwards won't bring your dog back from the grave or have your wife come back to you.

I don't have a solution. If I did, I'd have offered it.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

there is zero, absolutely zero, controversy in the MacNN Lounge. As I mentioned before, it's completely vanilla.

Well, until freudling goes off his meds again, or voodoo shows up to dredge up a month-old thread to shit into.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Yeah. And aren't those great, memorable times?

[Spheric Harlot]

[The Final Dakar]

What I miss aren't the idiots, but the posters who took the time dismantle their idiocy thoroughly. Unfortunately, most of them wised up and decided to make better use of their time.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

No no...I'm still here

[The Final Dakar]

You banned yourself from the PL pussy
(Does it feel like the good old days yet?)

[ShortcutToMoncton]

[besson3c]

What's up with the compression in that pic Shortcut? Newb.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

I have no idea what you mean. Talk to the internets, son.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Yes, I've had myself banned from discussion in the Pol Lounge, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. I would imagine that some people would rather just not see the more firey stuff that happens in the Pol Lounge, but at this point I think most of the "soul" has been sucked out of the Lounge - it's a pretty dry, boring place.

I've recently done the same, since it's the same 6 dudes yelling at the top of their lungs. Only I think the soul getting sucked out of the regular lounge is directly related to the PWL existence. THings were alot more fun around here when people weren't so serious, the PWL is the polar opposite of that, people are so serious they end up hating eachother.

Originally Posted by Lateralus 

I'm more in favor of getting rid of the PWL entirely. It's vitriolic by nature.

I agree. Let political topics filter into the regular lounge but strictly moderate them, any name-calling and otherwise silly BS will dealt with swiftly. If people want to argue about which political party has the bigger penis I'm sure there are a plethora of forums they could become members at.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I agree. My idea to shake things up is to invite people like Railroader, Rob and Kevin back.
The Lounge was a more fun place when there were more edgier people.\

I mean, for Pete's sake, the Railroader banning was so symptomatic for a Lounge that got converted to the mod's living room.

-t

I also agree with this. We need to bring back the forums roots, which is people who share a common interest (Macs) getting together to be friendly to eachother. The lounge used to be a place of technological interests and humor, now all of that energy is being used to argue about political parties.

[besson3c]

I really don't think anything being discussed will bring back the so-called glory days. Those days are gone. These days there are a number of other places where people can go to waste time, and bringing in fresh blood is hard without the popularity of the parent site or something to bring people here other than Googling for help on Mac stuff of which there are 290820934 places people can go.