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OldManMac · Feb 22, 2002, 12:01 AM

Let's talk about Dean Martin. Now, he was a singer!

Adam Silver · Feb 22, 2002, 05:05 AM

Originally posted by scaught:


there was NOTHING "punk" about grunge bands. punk can take many forms, but that grunge shit was NONE of them. grunge = wanna be 70s rockers trying to hold onto to some sort of "indie cool sensibilities".

lyrically, kobains music may have been "shallow drug music offering no real solutions", but he wrote a catchy tune. thats all im saying when i say "good songwriter".

Nothing punk about grunge? Then why were bands like Pearl Jam and Nirvana considered "punk" before the term grunge was coined? Grunge was an evolution of punk.

Anthrax + drugs - metal - haircuts - showers = grunge
Motley Crue + more drugs - makeup - metal = grunge
The Ramones + more drugs - showers = grunge
Nirvana - drugs + haircuts + showers = Foo Fighters

Anyway, I doubt it was the lyrics that made Nirvana popular. No one could understand a single word in a Nirvana song thanks to Kurt Kobain slurring all the words together. (Heroin will do that to you.)

siegzdad · Feb 22, 2002, 08:25 AM

I am part of GenX, and I agree that Cobain was a lousy stoner who blew his head off. Rolling Stone Magazine said that KC was the, "Voice of Our Generation". That lousy piece of crap who didn't have the balls to face his own problems doesn't speak for me.

maxelson · Feb 22, 2002, 08:57 AM

So, we are talking here about the history and influence of Punk, Indie, etc. What are we forgetting? Two Names: Iggy Pop, Lou Reed. I see Iggy ALL over Kobain and Nirvana (and, from what I recall, they did too). Of course, they were not as Iggy as Iggy is/was. I also see a bit of Lou in there. Lou and Iggy. Angry guys who wrote angry music (some of it, anyway- I really dig the whimsical side of these guys) and found the balance. These were also guys who stood in the same place Kobain did, looked over the edge, decided it was not for them. Pulled back.
Influence does not always equal fame, popularity. Ask John Hyatt. He'll tell you.
No go read Mother Night. Mmmm. So good, and so good for you.

scaught · Feb 22, 2002, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by Adam Silver:


Nothing punk about grunge? Then why were bands like Pearl Jam and Nirvana considered "punk" before the term grunge was coined? Grunge was an evolution of punk.

Anthrax + drugs - metal - haircuts - showers = grunge
Motley Crue + more drugs - makeup - metal = grunge
The Ramones + more drugs - showers = grunge
Nirvana - drugs + haircuts + showers = Foo Fighters

ack. i wont refute that nirvanas earlier stuff and even most of nevermind was in a very punk vein. but i also wouldnt throw nirvana in with the rest of the "grunge" bands. pearl jam i would call a "grunge" band and definitely NOT punk.

TommyLeeRoth · Feb 22, 2002, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by Adam Silver:

Motley Crue + more drugs - makeup - metal = grunge

I don't think it's possible to do more drugs than Motley Crue did back in the day.

roger_ramjet · Feb 22, 2002, 09:33 AM

Someone mentioned the Pixies. I gotta say they're just about everything Nirvana wasn't. Which is why I still like 'em and Nirvana, well, they had their moments but that was about it. I don't deny that Nirvana was influential (which is immensely depressing) but if you want to listen to the band that Nirvana ripped off, listen to the Pixies.

Oh, and Juan, Cipher, read Vonnegut. Just read him.

mitchell_pgh · Feb 22, 2002, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by theUpsetter:

Listen to his songs, they ALL have the same phrasing.

Did you ever listen to the Beatles? 80% of there songs have the same phrasing... and they are great... Nirvana changed music when they broke big... They made grunge/"alternative" mainstream... Music was in a bad way when they hit, and pulled it all together. No, he may not be the best singer, but he put everything into his music...

Feb 22, 2002, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by juanvaldes:


let me guess...your over 30?

Wrong, I was late-teens/early-twenties in university at the time - defintely in the right age group. He still seemed like a big loser to me.

[edit] BTW who the hell is Vonnegut? Or do I have to be over 30?

Nope. Hint: he was an author, not a musician. Then again, Cobain wasn't that great of a "musician" either.

Feb 22, 2002, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by m a d r a:


never wrote anything great?...

smells like teen spirit
come as you are
all apologies

Mediocre at best. Pearl Jam was the best band to come out of the grunge era. Although Nirvana gave us Grohl (sp?) who started the Foo Fighters which have much better music than Nirvana.

lousy singer...
listen to that MTV unplugged gig and then tell me that guy couldn't sing.

I did. He sucked. Sorry.

Feb 22, 2002, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:


Did you ever listen to the Beatles? 80% of there songs have the same phrasing... and they are great... Nirvana changed music when they broke big... They made grunge/"alternative" mainstream... Music was in a bad way when they hit, and pulled it all together. No, he may not be the best singer, but he put everything into his music...

I won't be popular for saying this, but I thought the Beatles were waaaay overrated. They were the 'N Sync of my parents' generation.

keekeeree · Feb 22, 2002, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by Adam Silver:

Anthrax + drugs - metal - haircuts - showers = grunge
Motley Crue + more drugs - makeup - metal = grunge
The Ramones + more drugs - showers = grunge
Nirvana - drugs + haircuts + showers = Foo Fighters

You forgot to add one item to your equations! FLANNEL!

Motley Crue + more drugs - makeup - metal + flannel = grunge
Nirvana - drugs + haircuts + showers - flannel = grunge

[edit: silly typo]
[edit: correct silly UBB typo missed in first edit]
[ 02-22-2002: Message edited by: keekeeree ]

[ 02-22-2002: Message edited by: keekeeree ]

daimoni · 04:44 PM

.

daimoni · 04:44 PM

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juanvaldes · Feb 22, 2002, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by roger_ramjet:Oh, and Juan, Cipher, read Vonnegut. Just read him.[/QB]

Maybe when I get some free time to finish my backlog of books, I'll tell ya what I think in 2030.

juanvaldes · Feb 22, 2002, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by hayesk:
Wrong, I was late-teens/early-twenties in university at the time - defintely in the right age group. He still seemed like a big loser to me.

Okay, so I miss judged your age, as malvolio showed me earlier not everyone fits such a generalization. But it is usually true. Your entitled to your opinion, thats fine.

[b]

Nope. Hint: he was an author, not a musician. Then again, Cobain wasn't that great of a "musician" either.[/QB]

Others have kindly pointed out who vannwho is. And again your opinion, I think that Perl Jam and the Foo Fighters suck. so?

roger_ramjet · Feb 23, 2002, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by daimoni:

roger_ramjet: please stop writing things that I totally agree with, especially when you invoke the Pixies or Vonnegut.

It makes me very uncomfortable!

I guess even a blind squirrel will find some nuts. You being the blind squirrel, that is.

JUnderwood · Feb 23, 2002, 01:34 AM

Jerry . . . . Seindfield?

If so, I hear you man..
.
.
.
.
Jonathan

PS kurt was murdered.

Adam Silver · Feb 23, 2002, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by scaught:


ack. i wont refute that nirvanas earlier stuff and even most of nevermind was in a very punk vein. but i also wouldnt throw nirvana in with the rest of the "grunge" bands. pearl jam i would call a "grunge" band and definitely NOT punk.

I dunno. A number of music journalists have described Pearl Jam as "punk". Granted, they don't sound as punk as say, Anthrax (they're just as much punk as they are metal), but the punk influence is there.

Adam Silver · Feb 23, 2002, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by daimoni:


That may or may not be true... depends on the band. Are we talking about The Sonics or the Kingsmen (60's bands from the Pacific Northwest) or are we talking about Iggy and the Stooges (or later, the Ramones) in the 70's? When did 'punk' begin? When did 'grunge' begin? Hey, when did 'rock-n-roll' begin? And what's the difference between them... depends on who you ask.

But now I know not to ask you about such things, heh. heh.

Too late. You already asked.

I always thought that The Ramones were the beginning of punk and anything before them was an influence on punk but not punk. (Sort of like Motorhead was not a thrash band but had great influence in creating the subgenre.) Joey Ramone said that his band was the first punk band and yelled at anyone who claimed otherwise (especially if someone said that the Sex Pistols were the first).

scaught · Feb 23, 2002, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by Adam Silver:


I dunno. A number of music journalists have described Pearl Jam as "punk". Granted, they don't sound as punk as say, Anthrax (they're just as much punk as they are metal), but the punk influence is there.

hahahaha. music journalists??? hahaha.

i think we have differing definitions of punk. its ok. opinions are meant to be different

.

Adam Silver · Feb 23, 2002, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by TommyLeeRoth:


I don't think it's possible to do more drugs than Motley Crue did back in the day.

Well, no one in Motley Crue died of a drug overdose. (Not permanently, anyway.)

I think Megadeth did more drugs than Motley Crue back then. But then again, no one in Megadeth ever put on lipstick.

Matsu · Feb 23, 2002, 10:32 AM

So now we're commemorating the death of only marginally useful people? Curt Kobain is dead. Has been for a while? Really? Who cares? Idiot teenagers throwing flowers and holding ridiculous out-door, candle-light, vigils. Who knows, maybe a few sobbing teeny boppers can get on TV. Wow. Big deal. Anyone got a maudlin Diana-esque tale about how he touched them, "Personally, you know, did so much for me... blah blah blah." ?

Adam Silver · Feb 23, 2002, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by anarkisst:


Your opinion is that Anthrax was a legendary, visionary group? Ok...

No, not visionary - their early music is tends to be shallow and lately Scott Ian Rosenfeld has become a left-wing nut, but they deserve more recognition.

Anthrax, along with Metallica and Slayer, was one of the first thrash bands. What set Anthrax apart from the other thrash bands were a vocalist who didn't scream (although no one will accuse any Anthrax vocalist other than John Bush of having talent) and a significant punk influence. Compare early Anthrax punk songs to the songs from The Offspring or Blink 182 (or some other current punk band); an Anthrax influence is certainly present.

Besides this, Anthrax is responsible for the popularity of rap metal. Anthrax and Public Enemy recorded Bring the Noise (the second time for Public Enemy), combining the rap and metal genres. Yes, there were rap metal songs before this one, but Bring the Noise is responsible for the flood of rap metal songs and bands (i.e. Rage Against the Machine, Limp Bizkit, Kid Rock, Linkin Park) that we have to live with today. (Personally, I hate rap metal, but I cannot deny its popularity.)

[ 02-23-2002: Message edited by: Adam Silver ]

Cipher13 · Feb 23, 2002, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Adam Silver:


I dunno. A number of music journalists have described Pearl Jam as "punk". Granted, they don't sound as punk as say, Anthrax (they're just as much punk as they are metal), but the punk influence is there.

Haha, thanks, that was a good laugh

theUpsetter · Feb 23, 2002, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:


Did you ever listen to the Beatles? 80% of there songs have the same phrasing... and they are great... Nirvana changed music when they broke big... They made grunge/"alternative" mainstream... Music was in a bad way when they hit, and pulled it all together. No, he may not be the best singer, but he put everything into his music...

I agree, and disagree. Their earlier stuff had similar phrasing, put later on they became better song writers and thats what made them great. Nobody says "Beatles 64" was their favorite album, its always something like white album/"Rubber Soul"/"Let it Be." I agree that Nirvana changed things when they hit it big, but I still think they're over-rated, and I hope they won't be thought of as being in the same class as the Beatles. And besides, if Nivana hadn't "pulled it all together" some other band would have.

What the hell would Kurt Cobain be doing now if he hadn't off himself? I see him the same way I see Sid Vicious. All Sid did was play bass, badly, for a short with the Sex Pistols (another vastly over-rated group, I don't even consider them a real band), but now millions of 14 year olds with bad attitudes think he's the God of Punk Rock.

Brandon