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Is the free market still great?
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besson3c
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Jul 5, 2017, 04:02 PM
 
Whether you think the free market is great or simply the best economic system that mankind has ever created, it is clear that modern day US conservatives in particular have been trying to push many things into the domain of the free market - some might say as much as possible.

I agree that it is the best economic system, but I'm not sure about all of the pushing without checks and regulation. Many conservatives would call these checks and regulations unnecessary overhead and meddling, but it is becoming clear to me that we are seeing the negative effects of too much left unchecked. So, I have open questions about this and I promise I'm not prescribing particular solutions involving the government... These open questions are about our attitudes, values, and general perceptions.

Two examples...

Many Trump supporters and conservatives are criticizing the media for making such a big thing out of things like the Russia investigation. The term "fake news" has been thrusted into our vernacular. The media is the way it is because they are chasing after profits. If fake news (however you want to classify this) and 24/7 Russia stuff is profitable, it will happen. Wherever you stand on this issue, I think many of us can agree that the media is often a pretty ugly mess in so many ways I don't think I need to spell out.

Secondly, health care. The patient protections in the ACA were a long and hard battle, and a liability to insurance providers, and now they are being threatened. However you feel about this, the ACA, or the new bill, perhaps we can all agree that a pure profit motive isn't always aligned with moral values and what is best for society?

Again, I'm not proposing solutions in the form of more government involvement, at least not now. I mean, yes I might in some cases, but that is not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is do you think it is right to want to question how the free market functions in our society?

Have you seen the movie Idiocracy? In this movie people water their plants with gatorade because it has electrolytes and people were told that electrolytes are what everybody needs. It is not hard to see this sort of thing as a direction we are headed, where profit motivated powers pretty much pull the wool over everybody's eyes and ensure that the population is as dumb as possible. It is easy to profit from dumb and predictable customers/consumers, right?

I'm not claiming that I'm smart and other people are dumb (although this is of course true). My secondary question, in addition to the question about the alignment of profit motive with moral values and what is best for the society, is this: do you ever tune in to something like cable news, Rick Perry stumbling over claims about global warming, or about a bazillion other things and just think that as a society we are getting pretty ****ing dumb? I know that some of you guys will label me as an elitist asshole for asking this, but I'm sure all of us can think of a way (depending on our politics) where we feel that society is getting (or has gotten) pretty dumb? If you are still with me, do you ever wonder about how much this love affair that some people have with the free market plays a role in this?

The TL;DR: is it time to start re-examining the free market, how it functions, how we think of it, etc.?
     
Snow-i
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Jul 5, 2017, 04:15 PM
 
No.

The whole point of the free market is that it self corrects for the problems you are describing over some period of time, whereas an authoritarian based system like socialism et al have no such corrections beyond revolt.

Ugly is a function of humanity, not of any economic theory or system of governance.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 5, 2017, 04:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
No.

The whole point of the free market is that it self corrects for the problems you are describing over some period of time, whereas an authoritarian based system like socialism et al have no such corrections beyond revolt.

Ugly is a function of humanity, not of any economic theory or system of governance.

So would you say that this self-correction has been consistent and reliable? Is your point that a self-correction of my two examples (media, health care) will eventually take place?
     
Snow-i
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Jul 5, 2017, 04:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So would you say that this self-correction has been consistent and reliable? Is your point that a self-correction of my two examples (media, health care) will eventually take place?
For 241 years and America's position as the world's only real superpower and as an enduring beacon of freedom, I'd say that yes it has. Perfect? Absolutely not.

One way or another, it is certain, since there will always be demand for such services and someone willing to sell them.

The question is how bad it gets before that time. Our concern is with making sure we don't get in the way of the competitive landscape in weeding out the "losers" and preventing as much of that "losing" as we can (while also making sure a level, fair playing field exists that has enough rules to prevent egregious exploitation).
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 5, 2017, 05:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
For 241 years and America's position as the world's only real superpower and as an enduring beacon of freedom, I'd say that yes it has. Perfect? Absolutely not.
I'm sorry, I don't understand how super-powerness and "enduring beacon of freedom" (whatever that means, I'm not entirely sure) explain market self-correction?

If your point about super-powerness is that free market economics produce the greatest wealth, no argument, but this was never in dispute.

The question is how bad it gets before that time. Our concern is with making sure we don't get in the way of the competitive landscape in weeding out the "losers" and preventing as much of that "losing" as we can (while also making sure a level, fair playing field exists that has enough rules to prevent egregious exploitation).
This is the question, and I'd add to this question whether it is wise to have this faith in market self-correction, especially given how long it can take when it does happen?
     
andi*pandi
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Jul 5, 2017, 06:28 PM
 
The market does need to be kept in check, or else you have monopolies, unsafe water, and 3 legged chickens. Wherever corporations become too powerful, there are also shenanigans.

Self-correction can happen but the little people rarely have the power to topple a corporate giant. Even with the almighty boycott and twitter shaming.
     
Laminar
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Jul 6, 2017, 05:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
The TL;DR: is it time to start re-examining the free market, how it functions, how we think of it, etc.?
Economist have always been doing this.

"Free market" isn't binary. There is always some measure of regulation holding unbridled anarcho-capitalism back, as there are always tax breaks, grants, and subsidies to promote some industries over others (see: corn, oil).

There's a slider between economic systems of anarcho-capitalism and communism.

The US is not at either end, but somewhere in the middle.

The fact that besson posted this thread and (maybe?) mistakenly painted it as a black and white issue will have this board's token anti-Democrats in a huff.

I rate this thread 2/10; poor effort, no potential.
     
Laminar
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Jul 6, 2017, 05:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
For 241 years and America's position as the world's only real superpower and as an enduring beacon of freedom, I'd say that yes it has.
You're a couple days late to the celebration.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jul 7, 2017, 12:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
You're a couple days late to the celebration.
I can't see you celebrating anything of the sort, the flag has too much blue and white in it for your taste, and it isn't adorned with farm implements.
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Laminar
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Jul 7, 2017, 09:53 AM
 
At first I thought you were actually getting creative and were poking fun at me being from Iowa, but then I realized it was the same old schtick where you're trying to paint my political views as something they're not.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 7, 2017, 10:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Economist have always been doing this.

"Free market" isn't binary. There is always some measure of regulation holding unbridled anarcho-capitalism back, as there are always tax breaks, grants, and subsidies to promote some industries over others (see: corn, oil).

There's a slider between economic systems of anarcho-capitalism and communism.

The US is not at either end, but somewhere in the middle.

The fact that besson posted this thread and (maybe?) mistakenly painted it as a black and white issue will have this board's token anti-Democrats in a huff.

I rate this thread 2/10; poor effort, no potential.

My repeal thread is going strong, so my record is mostly spotty but has some bright moments. Maybe I need some memes and some Abe?

Laminar, I'm aware of the whole spectrum thing, but isn't much of this relative to how we feel the free market should function? For example, Obamacare is basically a free market insurance based system (with subsidies, but it largely is built around free market insurance), but many of us might consider it a foe to the free market. Maybe after a certain point things need to be redefined and/or re-conceptualized?

If you don't subscribe to this idea that the market self-corrects consistently and effectively without intervention, maybe there are new ways and possibilities we can regulate or tweak the way the free market would otherwise work if left unchecked in ways that don't require dependence on corrupt politicians?

I don't really know what that solution looks like. This is another starry-eyed besson3c thought exercise, but I'm tired of the same old and expecting different results, so I figured I would see if people could first agree in some basic concepts pertaining to the shortcomings of the free market. We've had many threads about the shortcomings of government, politicians, and government programs, so I'm hoping this won't devolve to a typical left vs. right thing.
     
Laminar
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Jul 7, 2017, 12:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Laminar, I'm aware of the whole spectrum thing, but isn't much of this relative to how we feel the free market should function?
You ask if we need to rethink the free market, but we don't have a free market. Of course, by saying it the way you did, you invited everyone to immediately knee jerk the other way with accusations of socialism and communism.

For example, Obamacare is basically a free market insurance based system (with subsidies, but it largely is built around free market insurance),
Not really.

If you don't subscribe to this idea that the market self-corrects consistently and effectively without intervention, maybe there are new ways and possibilities we can regulate or tweak the way the free market would otherwise work if left unchecked in ways that don't require dependence on corrupt politicians?
Ask an economist. Post a research paper here for discussion. Making open-ended statements like you did just invites people to recite their party's stance verbatim.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 7, 2017, 01:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Ask an economist. Post a research paper here for discussion. Making open-ended statements like you did just invites people to recite their party's stance verbatim.

True, although that could be a constructive conversation right now too given that I would think and hope that people on both sides are feeling let down by their parties. Part of me would like to understand that loyalty and that clinging to old adages about self-correcting free markets and the like.

Although, I don't suppose I'll get much of an answer from somebody like Badkosh, so maybe you are right...
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jul 7, 2017, 02:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
At first I thought you were actually getting creative and were poking fun at me being from Iowa, but then I realized it was the same old schtick where you're trying to paint my political views as something they're not.
Awww. I knew you'd have a hissy for someone daring to counter your snark with some of their own, that's what makes this so wonderful. If you're going to use hyperbole to call out someone for being (in your opinion) too patriotic, don't cry when the tables are turned.
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but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Laminar
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Jul 7, 2017, 02:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
If you're going to use hyperbole to call out someone for being (in your opinion) too patriotic, don't cry when the tables are turned.
...hyperbole? What?

Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
You're a couple days late to the celebration.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jul 7, 2017, 03:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
...hyperbole? What?
Claiming he was "celebrating", when he was merely pointing out a fact, wasn't hyperbolic? Okay.

I need to try on your glasses for a day and check out the tint, it must be a hell of a show.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Laminar
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Jul 7, 2017, 03:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Claiming he was "celebrating"
That didn't happen.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jul 7, 2017, 04:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
That didn't happen.
Your trolling isn't happening.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
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Laminar
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Jul 7, 2017, 05:01 PM
 
For 241 years and America's position as the world's only real superpower and as an enduring beacon of freedom,
^By far the best hyperbole in this thread.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Jul 7, 2017, 08:04 PM
 
Enduring beacon of freedom so long as the following doesn't apply?

- you aren't gay and interested in marrying
- you aren't interested in smoking pot
- you don't get sick unless you can afford it
- you don't mind the government spying on you
- you don't mind your middle class wages being stagnant
- you don't mind having very little maternity leave
- you don't mind not having your political viewpoints ignored by your congress person

Of course, every country will have their own lists along these same lines, but my point is that this beacon isn't so clearly there.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jul 7, 2017, 11:26 PM
 
The best snark in this thread:

I can't see you celebrating anything of the sort, the flag has too much blue and white in it for your taste, and it isn't adorned with farm implements.
The saltiest tears:

At first I thought you were actually getting creative and were poking fun at me being from Iowa, but then I realized it was the same old schtick where you're trying to paint my political views as something they're not.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Laminar
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Jul 13, 2017, 02:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Of course, every country will have their own lists along these same lines, but my point is that this beacon isn't so clearly there.
My angle is more along the lines of noting that the US is interested in the US doing well. "Freedom" and "spreading democracy" is a secondary concern, and often used as a front for advancing the real goals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._United_States

The US will unseat democratically-elected leaders and install authoritarian dictators if it is in the US's economic interests. It's not about being a beacon of freedom and democracy, and anyone that believes that is wearing red- white- and blue-shaded glasses.
     
   
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