[Eug]

I've always supported the heavy slashing of these companies and the reduction of labour costs which were simply too high. This was a step in the right direction, to keep the companies competitive.

However, the latest turn has me confused. It seems odd to me to nationalize the companies and/or have them be bought out by the unions. I'm usually not very comfortable having bureaucrats or unions making real management/big picture type decisions, especially, when those organizations don't have any experience doing so. In fact, I'm a little surprised Fiat would even be interested in Chrysler, as their employees at Chrysler would actually control the company.

I'm not a fan of North American cars. However, this will make me even more worried about buying one, at least from Chrysler or GM. This seems like a Hail Mary move more than anything and one wonders if they'll last more than a couple of years, even if the deals go through.

[turtle777]

They dug their own grave.

The unions having that much say and ownership will make GM and Chrysler even less flexible.
They are dead, but will be kept around as a zombies, fed financed by the government.

-t

[sek929]

I'll still buy GM trucks, I own a GM truck right now.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by sek929 

I'll still buy GM trucks, I own a GM truck right now.

Why specifically a GM? Does the precariousness of the company not concern you?

[Hawkeye_a]

Irrespective of the current financial situation of the company, as far as automotive style.... i think the Chrysler 300 is awesome. Great marriage of European and American design. If i had the money i would have got one.

Too bad they couldnt(or didnt) develop or market the product to it's full potential.(imo)

But given the current financials(and instability) of GM, i will definitely not consider a product from them, just cause if they do go belly up i dont want to be stranded when it comes to after sales service and warranty claims, etc.

Also, while i do understand the 'patriotic' nature of supporting these companies, i do not understand supporting a company(from a consumers perspective) of this size that is incapable of supporting itself. If anything, i think consumers should support the best product irrespective of company/country of origin. Take advantage of the free market to ensure the best survive by getting the best product for your money. And if other companies cant deliver, maybe they dont deserve to survive ?

[ctt1wbw]

I have a Dodge Durango and Ram 1500 Hemi quad cab. The financial situations of these companies have nothing to do with the quality of the car. For some reason, most Americans, specifically the boneheads on these forums, think that Chrysler still makes the K car.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

I have a Dodge Durango and Ram 1500 Hemi quad cab. The financial situations of these companies have nothing to do with the quality of the car.

Actually, the financial situations of these companies is partly due to the quality (and perceived quality) of their products. However, that is the reputation in general, not for very specific vehicle models of course.

Furthermore, I suspect resale value of Chrysler vehicles in general would drop if the company went bankrupt.

[ctt1wbw]

So I guess Toyota's quality is crap, too? Their sales are down about 40-50% year over year, as well. As a matter of fact, everyone's sales are down. All them. So I guess that means all cars quality is crap?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

So I guess Toyota's quality is crap, too? Their sales are down about 40-50% year over year, as well. As a matter of fact, everyone's sales are down. All them. So I guess that means all cars quality is crap?

GM and Chrysler were in trouble long before the economic downturn. The downturn just put them over the edge. And one significant reason for this was the quality or perceived quality of the products.

P.S. Apparently Fiat will announce tomorrow that they have signed on.

[Dakar V]

Apparently someone hasn't grasped the apparent disconnect in quality between American cars and American trucks.

Also, efficiency.

[Kerrigan]

Hmmm... if I were president, I think I would continue to bail out the automotive industry through the recession, but I would stop short of nationalization. When aggregate demand picked back up and the economy started growing again, I would stop the bail outs, remove any protectionist legislation shielding them from foreign competition, and let them suffer their fate.

In the long run, it simply is not good to continue pumping money into businesses that are no longer competitive. The auto worker unions have sucked the very marrow out of GM et al, and sadly the time as come for foreign companies with less burdensome union arrangements to take their place. But it is probably best for the economy that this transition not take place in the middle of a huge recession (for fear of invoking the wrath of the multiplier effect).

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

So I guess Toyota's quality is crap, too? Their sales are down about 40-50% year over year, as well. As a matter of fact, everyone's sales are down. All them. So I guess that means all cars quality is crap?

Fantastic job of freaking out before anyone even starts attacking you. Quick - accuse me of driving a foreign car and constantly ragging on the terrible quality of the domestic automakers, while completely ignoring actual statistics and studies and the importance of an acceptable sample size.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Why specifically a GM? Does the precariousness of the company not concern you?

Not really, I still have over a year on my current loan, if GM is still around and I can get a decent deal on a new truck I'll buy one. It's not like once GM fails my truck won't turn on anymore, I'll just have to get it serviced somewhere other than the GMC dealership.

My buddy's dad got a sick deal on a 08 F-150, they are really desperate which makes for a good time to buy an American truck. Couple that with the overall awesomeness of the american truck market and the price difference of foreign brands and you've got a smart purchase.

[olePigeon]

Ford's going to do OK. Their pickups still sell well in America, and they actually sell cars in Europe. Ford Focus is relatively popular over there.

Chrysler doesn't have a prayer. They've gone bankrupt more than once and still haven't changed their attitude.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by sek929 

My buddy's dad got a sick deal on a 08 F-150

Well, the F-150 isn't a GM or Chrysler.

Not really, I still have over a year on my current loan, if GM is still around and I can get a decent deal on a new truck I'll buy one. It's not like once GM fails my truck won't turn on anymore, I'll just have to get it serviced somewhere other than the GMC dealership.

I'm thinking it will affect resale value too.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Well, the F-150 isn't a GM or Chrysler.

A friend managed to pick up an almost new Ram Quad Cab for $11,000.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

A friend managed to pick up an almost new Ram Quad Cab for $11,000.

Good point. The question though is if he could get a similar Ford (if there is such a thing) for a similar price. If not, then that would suggest the Chrysler resale prices are already dropping.

So yeah, if you can get a used GM/Chrysler for an awesome deal then great. The point I'm trying to make though is that if you're paying the usual new prices then you might be in for a shock in terms of resale value. Then again, I wonder how much you can bargain down those GM/Chrysler dealerships for new vehicles these days.

[Eug]

Bloomberg: Chrysler will file for bankruptcy

"Chrysler LLC will proceed today with a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing, an Obama administration official said."

[RAILhead]

I'll buy Jeeps regardless of who makes them, as long as someone does.

Does that answer the question?

[turtle777]

Chrysler's dead, GM is next.

Serves the UAW right, they just couldn't get their greedy hands full enough...

-t

[Hawkeye_a]

Chrysler files for chapter 11.

These companies seem like black holes. Why the U.S. government is throwing money at them just baffles me. I sure am glad they sold off Benz, as i would hate to see that auto maker go under.

I dont think it's a good idea to bail out these unhealthy businesses just to save jobs as it will, imo have a detrimental effect on the economy (inflation, etc). It's pretty sad that none of the American auto makers have actually innovated in the past decade..... sure we see a lot of prototypes at auto shows that never actually make it to market, but what about leapfrogging in efficiency instead of building even bigger gas-guzzlers ? consolidating the product line (similar to what Apple did in 1998). or bringing 'luxury features' to the upper-middle class markets ? They just seem to have been concerned with 'business as usual' imo, while the Japanese and Europeans pressed ahead. The problem ? greedy management and lack of vision/innovation. Let them go the way of the dodo.

Cheers

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Chrysler's dead, GM is next.

Serves the UAW right, they just couldn't get their greedy hands full enough...

-t

They got what they wanted. They're in bed with Obama, what did you expect? He rewards his loyal supporters.

[OreoCookie]

Chrysler has filed for Chapter 11 to be a tastier buy for Fiat. (Don't ask me why Fiat is doing that to itself, though. Seems like a patently stupid move to me.)

@Hawkeye
Daimler sold Chrysler, not the other way around.

[smacintush]

How many of you Obama supporters like how he has handled this whole…thing?

[BadKosh]

Would they be better without the high costs of the unions?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Would they be better without the high costs of the unions?

Better in what respect ?

Definitely more profitable. And if the unions had been reigned in early on, the US automotive industry might not be in shambles.

I know, I know, management screwed up as well. I ain't gonna deny that. But the problem is that it's far easier to change management than to change unions contracts. Basically, it takes bankruptcy to change the union contracts. At that point, it's too late for the most part.

-t

[Eug]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Would they be better without the high costs of the unions?

Well, put it this way. They would be completely dead with the high costs of the unions. Without the high costs of the unions, at least they now have a fighting chance going forward.

However, I'm not necessarily optimistic either. Shotgun nationalization and control by the unions aren't great things either.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

it's far easier to change management than to change unions contracts.

I imagine management's changed a few times in the 20 years people have been screaming that the auto industry (in the US) needs to change. Didn't accomplish much, though. Seems their ideas didn't change.

Edited for freshness

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

I imagine management's changed a few times in the 20 years people have been screaming that the auto industry needs to change. Didn't accomplish much, though. Seems their ideas didn't change.

I wonder how much Fiat can change that mentality with Chrysler. Note though that Fiat does not have the controlling interest.

OTOH, they will own enough of the company so that they can have a huge influence.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Bloomberg: Chrysler will file for bankruptcy

"Chrysler LLC will proceed today with a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing, an Obama administration official said."

Told you.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

It's pretty sad that none of the American auto makers have actually innovated in the past decade..... sure we see a lot of prototypes at auto shows that never actually make it to market, but what about leapfrogging in efficiency instead of building even bigger gas-guzzlers ? consolidating the product line (similar to what Apple did in 1998). or bringing 'luxury features' to the upper-middle class markets ? They just seem to have been concerned with 'business as usual' imo, while the Japanese and Europeans pressed ahead. The problem ? greedy management and lack of vision/innovation. Let them go the way of the dodo.

I'm sorry, what?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

I'm sorry, what?

Remember, the first hybrids came out in 2001 in North America, and years before that in Japan.

Ford is playing catchup.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

I'm sorry, what?

Or you could buy a Jetta or Golf TDI that's cheaper and gets better gas mileage.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Ford is playing catchup.

Every review I've read says that they've already caught up to and passed the Japs.

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Or you could buy a Jetta or Golf TDI that's cheaper and gets better gas mileage.

I was planning a nice long-winded, well thought-out, well-sourced reply, but I'll just say: No.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Every review I've read says that they've already caught up to and passed the Japs.

That's rather optimistic. The Ford Fusion hybrid is a good entry into the market, and I wish them well, as we need some real competition from the American manufacturers. If they do well, that would be excellent for the province in which I live, as the auto industry is a big supplier of jobs here (both from North American car companies and Japanese car companies).

However, I think you're counting your chickens a little too soon if you're assuming it has bested the Camry, which has been on the market for years and already has a reputation for being a reliable performer.

If you're talking new products, you may as well mention Toyota's new Prius as well, since 2010 will bring the plug-in hybrid, which is an incremental upgrade to a model that's been around since 2004. BTW, since I'm mentioning the Prius... To nitpick, the best mileage in a mid-size car is actually neither the Fusion nor say the Camry. It's the Prius. Ford gets around this by saying the Fusion has the best mileage in a mid-size sedan.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Eug 

However, I think you're counting your chickens a little too soon if you're assuming it has bested the Camry, which has been on the market for years and already has a reputation for being a reliable performer.

It's not me saying it, it's people that drive and review cars for a living.

If you're talking new products, you may as well mention Toyota's new Prius as well, since 2010 will bring the plug-in hybrid, which is an incremental upgrade to a model that's been around since 2004. BTW, since I'm mentioning the Prius... To nitpick, the best mileage in a mid-size car is actually neither the Fusion nor say the Camry. It's the Prius. Ford gets around this by saying the Fusion has the best mileage in a mid-size sedan.

Although the Prius and Fusion technically fall into the same class, they're very different cars. The Fusion and Camry both have the Prius beat by about 700 pounds, 15 inches of length, and four inches of width. Consumers are much more likely to cross-shop a Fusion and Camry than they are a Fusion and Prius. And even so, these guys liked the Fusion better than the ('09) Prius.

[Shaddim]

I have to agree with Laminar. Comparing the avg daily driver, Ford has caught the Japanese. Hey, it only took 25+ years, but better late than never.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I have to agree with Laminar.

That's just the worst, isn't it?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

That's just the worst, isn't it?

I often agree with you, as long as it doesn't involve: religion, money, TV, home audio, German cars, women, or politics.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I often agree with you, as long as it doesn't involve: religion, money, TV, home audio, German cars, women, or politics.

Try me.

I am pro-these:

religion, money, TV, home audio, German cars, women

and anti-these:

politics

I'd say we're pretty close, no?

[olePigeon]

He's totally hitting on you.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Every review I've read says that they've already caught up to and passed the Japs.

Jap is considered an ethnic slur in America, by the way. Just FYI.

[turtle777]

OMGWTFBBQ!!!1!1one

A slur on teh intarwebs ?

-t

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Jap is considered an ethnic slur in America, by the way. Just FYI.

I thought it was only a slur if you were talking about a young Jewish woman?

[Eug]

It's a slur for young Jewish women, but I've heard young Jewish women use it to talk about other young Jewish women. I have never heard a Japanese person use it for other Japanese, and all the Japanese I know find it quite insulting.

---

Like I said it's good to have competition in newer technology... for a change. Truth be told, it always seemed to me Toyota was putting its hybrid work mainly into the Prius with the Camry just getting it grafted on. However, what I was getting at with regards to counting chickens, reviews can't assess reliability. I sincerely hope the Fusion hybrid is a reliable car. We just can't assume that because it drives well, that it will be reliable as well.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Like I said it's good to have competition in newer technology... for a change. Truth be told, it always seemed to me Toyota was putting its hybrid work mainly into the Prius with the Camry just getting it grafted on. However, what I was getting at with regards to counting chickens, reviews can't assess reliability. I sincerely hope the Fusion hybrid is a reliable car. We just can't assume that because it drives well, that it will be reliable as well.

Very true.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

OMGWTFBBQ!!!1!1one

A slur on teh intarwebs ?

I don't think the Political/War Lounge extends to using racism.

[Maflynn]

I've owned Chrysler cars in one form or another since I got my license and so I'm sad to them go.

While people rightfully place blame on both the company, and the unions that doesn't diminish the fact that such a huge piece of Americana has died.

What is surprising is at how quick both GM and Chrysler went down, I mean just a few years ago no one would have believed that chrysler would be in bankruptcy and GM following suit.

Regardless of how many people feel about the executives and unions who drove those companies into the ground, its still sad to see so many people lose their jobs, and livelihood

[Eug]

Actually, about a decade or so ago, I started wondering if one of them (but not two of them) might be going under.

Chrysler has especially been under the scope in the past while. And how many times have they been on the "verge" of bankruptcy?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

What is surprising is at how quick both GM and Chrysler went down, I mean just a few years ago no one would have believed that chrysler would be in bankruptcy and GM following suit.

Quick ?

They had it looooong coming.

-t