[marden]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Couldthis be why you are constantly accusing atheists of being "elitists"?

Maybe. Maybe not.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

More lies!

More lies? In order for there to be MORE there has to be some already there. Unless you were referring to your own posts. If that is the case, I agree.

BTW, you're not a Christian, so you wouldn't know.

100% Silly.

Again, grow up.

[cwosigns]

I'm an atheist and gay. Uh oh, sketty-oh.

[Mithras]

But (by omission) I presume you are white and male, so, you know, you're still kinda in the inside club.

[cwosigns]

I am white and male. I also cannot marry (which is a largely religious tradition which I could go without, but there are certain legal rights that come with marriage that I would like to have) the person I love. I tire of hearing that we can't get married because homosexuality is "wrong." Wrong for Christians, maybe. Wrong for me, an atheist? No. Illegal in America because America legislates Christianity into law? Yes.

I believe America's downfall will be it's inability to, ironically enough, keep up with the rest of the world when it comes to human rights.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by cwosigns

I believe America's downfall will be it's inability to, ironically enough, keep up with the rest of the world when it comes to human rights.

I didn't know we were on a race?

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I didn't know we were on a race?

NIce straw-man argument. He wasn't using a metaphor for competiton (what a race is). He was using a metaphor for comparison. But not all comparisons are viewed in terms of winners and losers (again, what a race is). Some, probably most, comparisons are hierarchical or rank-ordered. But again, that does not suggest winners and losers as your metaphor of racing does.


And I think cwosigns has a valid point. Much of the rest of the world's modern developed countries view their citizens apart from any religious over-tones. Why is it that the US needs to view its citizens through the lens of religious beliefs? Why can't we look at our citizens as humans first and religious beings second?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

And I think cwosigns has a valid point. Much of the rest of the world's modern developed countries view their citizens apart from any religious over-tones. Why is it that the US needs to view its citizens through the lens of religious beliefs? Why can't we look at our citizens as humans first and religious beings second?

I don't think we are looking at religion first and being second. So your question would be silly to me.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I don't think we are looking at religion first and being second. So your question would be silly to me.

"would be" or "is" silly? conjectural or declarative?


And if you "don't think we are looking at religion first and being second" why do you think that most opposition from same-sex marriage or civil unions are based on religious beliefs? If people aren't viewing their fellow citizens as religious beings first and civil beng second, why are religious beliefs used to oppose homosexual unions? Why aren't the majority of those opposed to such a practice basing their opposition on something other than religious beliefs?

[Kevin]

Why are there people that aren't religious opposed to it as well then dc?

Put that wide brush away.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Why are there people that aren't religious opposed to it as well then dc?

Put that wide brush away.

I'd like to see a link for that please. And he was also asking "Why aren't the majority of those opposed", so the wide brush argument really isn't appropriate here.

[marden]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

NIce straw-man argument. He wasn't using a metaphor for competiton (what a race is). He was using a metaphor for comparison. But not all comparisons are viewed in terms of winners and losers (again, what a race is). Some, probably most, comparisons are hierarchical or rank-ordered. But again, that does not suggest winners and losers as your metaphor of racing does.


And I think cwosigns has a valid point. Much of the rest of the world's modern developed countries view their citizens apart from any religious over-tones. Why is it that the US needs to view its citizens through the lens of religious beliefs? Why can't we look at our citizens as humans first and religious beings second?

It seems that often (not always, but too frequently) we general population are so enured by the PC police to put up with every offense or attack that we just accept crap that we shouldn't. When we have to bite our tonge to put up with the ultimate outsiders that few Americans feel share our values we shouldn't act blind and dumb to the things that an aethist might do to criticize America as part of an atheist agenda.

If a cute little animal happens to have a horrible smell you don't ignore it, you deal with it.

I'm tired of letting aethists run down my country while we are at war. If most aethieists are not like this then it's news to me. From what I've seen most of them are down on America and attack it like America was the enemy and the liberals, who are our dear brothers and sisters, just wrap their arms around the skunks out of kindness. But I'm here to tell you they may be the kind of animals you don't want to get too close to.

[cwosigns]

I'm not against the war because I'm against MY country. I'm against the war because I LOVE my country. And it sickens me that a nation BUILT on bucking the unjust system by people who were not afraid to think for themselves has been watered down to a bunch of lemmings supporting an unjust system ran by old, white, straight protestants who will stop at NOTHING to impose their values and beliefs on anyone living within their borders.

My vision of America is a place of TRUE freedom. Where I can be who I inherently am without being judged by whether or not I subscribe to a particular theology or not. America is not, and will never be, free as long as people are judged and classed by what God they believe in, if any.

And you can call me a skunk if you want. Denigrate me to your heart's content. But this skunk does a helluva lot of good in his community. I'm a sign language interpreter, meaning my life's work is to give voice to a people who don't have one. I volunteer with charitable organizations. I advocate for the rights of people who can't do it for themselves. I open doors for people. And as an atheist I interpreted for a college student attending a Christian college to become a minister. Not because I believed in the message, but because I believe in his RIGHT to the message.

I have volunteered at nursing homes as well. And this last bit I bring to you as a warning. In your old age, you might find yourself being cared for by a skunk. Say a little prayer to your god that the skunk is more forgiving of you than you were of him.

[cwosigns]

[QUOTE=marden]It seems that often (not always, but too frequently) we general population are so enured by the PC police to put up with every offense or attack that we just accept crap that we shouldn't. When we have to bite our tonge to put up with the ultimate outsiders that few Americans feel share our values we shouldn't act blind and dumb to the things that an aethist might do to criticize America as part of an atheist agenda.QUOTE]

So by "general population" you mean "white Christains." And by "put up with every offense or attack" you mean "tolerate the differences, religious and otherwise, that every American is guaranteed under the Constitution of the United States." And by "we have to bite our tonge [sic] to put up with the ultimate outsiders" you mean you "aren't allowed to openly bash us and trash OUR freedom." And clearly "few Americans feel share our values" you mean "the shrinking religious majority feels that the term American should be reserved for white Christain people who blindly support a narrow view of people based on the Judeo-Christian fath."

Julia Sugarbaker said it best:

"If you like reciting the Pledge of Allegiance everyday then I think you should do it! In the car! In the shower! Wherever the mood strikes you! But don't try to tell me when or where I have to say or do or salute anything, because I am an American too, and that is what being an American is all about! And another thing.........I am sick and tired of being made to feel that if I am not a member of a little family with 2.4 children who goes just to Jerry Fallwell's church and puts their hands over their hearts every morning that I am unreligious, unpatriotic, and un-American!! Because I've got news for you, Mr. Brickett...........all liberals are not kooks, anymore than all conservatives are fascists!! and the last time I checked, God was neither a Democratic nor a Republican! And just for your information, yes I am a liberal, but I am also a Christian. And I get down on my knees and pray everyday ---- on my own turf --- on my own time. One of the things that I pray for, Mr. Brickett, is that people with power will get good sense, and that people with good sense will get power.........and that the rest of us will be blessed with the patience and the strength to survive the people like you in the meantime!!"

[marden]

[QUOTE=cwosigns]

Originally Posted by marden

It seems that often (not always, but too frequently) we general population are so enured by the PC police to put up with every offense or attack that we just accept crap that we shouldn't. When we have to bite our tonge to put up with the ultimate outsiders that few Americans feel share our values we shouldn't act blind and dumb to the things that an aethist might do to criticize America as part of an atheist agenda.QUOTE]

So by "general population" you mean "white Christains." And by "put up with every offense or attack" you mean "tolerate the differences, religious and otherwise, that every American is guaranteed under the Constitution of the United States." And by "we have to bite our tonge [sic] to put up with the ultimate outsiders" you mean you "aren't allowed to openly bash us and trash OUR freedom." And clearly "few Americans feel share our values" you mean "the shrinking religious majority feels that the term American should be reserved for white Christain people who blindly support a narrow view of people based on the Judeo-Christian fath."

Julia Sugarbaker said it best:

"If you like reciting the Pledge of Allegiance everyday then I think you should do it! In the car! In the shower! Wherever the mood strikes you! But don't try to tell me when or where I have to say or do or salute anything, because I am an American too, and that is what being an American is all about! And another thing.........I am sick and tired of being made to feel that if I am not a member of a little family with 2.4 children who goes just to Jerry Fallwell's church and puts their hands over their hearts every morning that I am unreligious, unpatriotic, and un-American!! Because I've got news for you, Mr. Brickett...........all liberals are not kooks, anymore than all conservatives are fascists!! and the last time I checked, God was neither a Democratic nor a Republican! And just for your information, yes I am a liberal, but I am also a Christian. And I get down on my knees and pray everyday ---- on my own turf --- on my own time. One of the things that I pray for, Mr. Brickett, is that people with power will get good sense, and that people with good sense will get power.........and that the rest of us will be blessed with the patience and the strength to survive the people like you in the meantime!!"

Whatever. I don't care for your beliefs but that is where tolerance must apply to it. When you act like America is the problem with the Islam threat, you are out of line in my book. If I see atheists saying those things more than anybody else I want everybody here to know it. You can say whatever you want. But you won't be able to hide behind the liberals. I want you to stand out front and let everybody know who is saying these ****ed up things.

Besides I wasn't even talking about anybody in particular. Just atheists.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by marden

If I see atheists saying those things more than anybody else I want everybody here to know it. You can say whatever you want. But you won't be able to hide behind the liberals.

What makes you think liberals aren't atheists?

Oh, and just for the record, publically speaking out against people like you is probably the most American thing anybody could do at the moment.

[cwosigns]

I didn't originally post that.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by marden

Whatever. I don't care for your beliefs but that is where tolerance must apply to it. When you act like America is the problem with the Islam threat, you are out of line in my book. If I see atheists saying those things more than anybody else I want everybody here to know it. You can say whatever you want. But you won't be able to hide behind the liberals. I want you to stand out front and let everybody know who is saying these ****ed up things.

Besides I wasn't even talking about anybody in particular. Just atheists.

What I don't get is why some people are so unwilling to even consider that our own actions might actually have negative consequences for us. We (the West and America) have been meddling in the middle east for centuries. For the most part, doing things that we can all agree were despicable and completely wrong. Is it any surprise that some of the people over there have been raised to hate us?

Which isn't to say that we deserve to be killed in terrorist attacks. Nor is it to say that terrorists have some sort of moral authority to do what they're doing. But just because they doing things that are wrong doesn't mean we shouldn't seek to understand the root causes of the problem so that we can avoid the same and similar problems in the future. We can admit and learn from our past mistakes without being weak; in fact that's exactly what makes us strong.

America isn't the problem with 'the Islam threat', as you so eloquently put it. The only people responsible for a terrorist attack are the terrorists themselves, no matter whom they feel the need to blame. But America did contribute to the problem, and our cultural forebears do hold a large portion of the blame for many of the problems in the region, and it would be folly for us to ignore that as we set forth on a course of action that so closely mimics the ones that did spawn the current situation.

[Edit: and for the record, I am atheist and I voted for Bush (in '00, not '04)]

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by cwosigns

I didn't originally post that.

Corrected. Sorry for the technical fcuk up!

[marden]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

What makes you think liberals aren't atheists?

Oh, and just for the record, publically speaking out against people like you is probably the most American thing anybody could do at the moment.

Most people are religious. That includes liberals and Democrats. Atheists may be liberal and may be Democrats but they are the lowest common denomonater but they raise more crap than their numbers and all I'm doing is telling people what they might not know about who might be throwing the biggest stones at the US. I don't think it's Muslims or Gays or Hispanics or regular liberals or regular democrats.

[marden]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

What I don't get is why some people are so unwilling to even consider that our own actions might actually have negative consequences for us. We (the West and America) have been meddling in the middle east for centuries. For the most part, doing things that we can all agree were despicable and completely wrong. Is it any surprise that some of the people over there have been raised to hate us?

Which isn't to say that we deserve to be killed in terrorist attacks. Nor is it to say that terrorists have some sort of moral authority to do what they're doing. But just because they doing things that are wrong doesn't mean we shouldn't seek to understand the root causes of the problem so that we can avoid the same and similar problems in the future. We can admit and learn from our past mistakes without being weak; in fact that's exactly what makes us strong.

America isn't the problem with 'the Islam threat', as you so eloquently put it. The only people responsible for a terrorist attack are the terrorists themselves, no matter whom they feel the need to blame. But America did contribute to the problem, and our cultural forebears do hold a large portion of the blame for many of the problems in the region, and it would be folly for us to ignore that as we set forth on a course of action that so closely mimics the ones that did spawn the current situation.

[Edit: and for the record, I am atheist and I voted for Bush (in '00, not '04)]

Ok. You sound reasonable.

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by cwosigns

I'm an atheist and gay. Uh oh, sketty-oh.

Don't tell them that if you plan on flying... don't you know how many terrorist attacks gay atheist cause each year? Countless lives have been lost over atheists arguing over which is not the true God/Religion and LOVING someone of the same sex.

You should be locked up.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Don't tell them that if you plan on flying... don't you know how many terrorist attacks gay atheist cause each year? Countless lives have been lost over atheists arguing over which is not the true God/Religion and LOVING someone of the same sex.

You should be locked up.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by marden

Atheists may be liberal and may be Democrats but they are the lowest common denominator but they raise more crap than their numbers…

This makes no sense whatsoever. I'm beginning to think you are a person with very little experience in life. Maybe you should take some political science classes or at least get out a little bit more before making generalizations about people you obviously know nothing about.

Being an atheist in no way makes you "un-American", nor does it automatically mean that you are necessarily "against" the US.

People who think like you should know that they aren't the official representatives of America or American culture. Nor has anybody appointed you being the defender thereof.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I would suggest that until you know what you are talking about and charge other people with holding "certain views", I'd be very careful of what I say in public.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

This makes no sense whatsoever. I'm beginning to think you are a person with very little experience in life. Maybe you should take some political science classes or at least get out a little bit more before making generalizations about people you obviously know nothing about.

Being an atheist in no way makes you "un-American", nor does it automatically mean that you are necessarily "against" the US.

People who think like you should know that they aren't the official representatives of America or American culture. Nor has anybody appointed you being the defender thereof.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I would suggest that until you know what you are talking about and charge other people with holding "certain views", I'd be very careful of what I say in public.

Ok smart guy. Let's see you make your smart aleck comments about al Qaeda and the ones that are trying to kill people instead of the ones trying to keep freedom alive.

I bet you are scared to.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by marden

I bet you are scared to.

Afraid of what??

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by marden

Most people are religious. That includes liberals and Democrats. Atheists may be liberal and may be Democrats but they are the lowest common denomonater but they raise more crap than their numbers and all I'm doing is telling people what they might not know about who might be throwing the biggest stones at the US. I don't think it's Muslims or Gays or Hispanics or regular liberals or regular democrats.

What a funny little world you live in. Do you have one of those machines that prints out labels so you can place them on everything you see. It must be so comfortable to see everything so absolutely. There are no absolutes... nothing is certain. There are 300,000,000 people in the U.S. You honestly think you can lump them all into a few neat and tidy categories. Open your mind...it might hurt at first... but you'd be amazed what comes of it. "Atheists raise more crap than their numbers".... I can't even begin to imagine what that even means...

[spindler]

"I feel more warmth for peaceloving Muslims, gays, Jews or fundamental Christians than I do for atheists."

If I had to guess, most people who don't like atheists either haven't met them, or are just really crappy, immoral people.

After all, in life, if you are a good person, you quickly realize that there are good people and bad people. There are people who treat their kids well, and those who suck as parents and cause unhappiness for their family. There are those who would help you if you needed help, and those who would stab you in the back to move ahead.

So therefore, I could NEVER EVER say I liked one person simply because they are Christian or one because they are Jewish. I feel a kinship with people who I notice raise their kids well, and a disgust for those who don't. I like Jewish people who raise their kids well, and am disgusted by Christians who don't. Therefore, I could NEVER say "I feel closer to Christians than Jews because our philosophies overlap more."

You are a lunatic if you are in a room with 5 good atheist parents and 5 crappy Christian parents, but you feel more affinity towards the Christians simply because they are Christians.

And since THERE IS NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that atheists are statistically less moral in any way (except perhaps abortion, if you are against that) there should be no reason to like one group more than the other.

I'll take a decent Iraqi Muslim anyday over some ignorant American slob that goes to church once a week and then blabs about the celebrity/murder/reality TV gossip the media provides.

[King Bob On The Cob]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

"would be" or "is" silly? conjectural or declarative?


And if you "don't think we are looking at religion first and being second" why do you think that most opposition from same-sex marriage or civil unions are based on religious beliefs? If people aren't viewing their fellow citizens as religious beings first and civil beng second, why are religious beliefs used to oppose homosexual unions? Why aren't the majority of those opposed to such a practice basing their opposition on something other than religious beliefs?

Lets take a count... How many Christians that read this thread don't give a rats ass compared to the people who do? (I know limited sample and all but it's the best I can do until I find the site that has the numbers that says that 60 something percent of christians support Same-Sex marriage 60 percent of 80 percent means you've got yourself nearly 50 percent of the country supporting same sex marriage, and that doesn't include non-christians.)

I for one really don't care if you want to get married as long as you don't force me to recognize your marriage in the church.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob

I for one really don't care if you want to get married as long as you don't force me to recognize your marriage in the church.

Umm, NO ONE in the debate on same-sex marriage has ever advocated forcing religious institutions to perform same-sex religious marriage ceremonies if it goes against the beliefs of said institution. It has always been about forcing government institutions to perform same-sex civil/secular marriage ceremonies. It's about forcing the government institutions that represent ALL of the citizens in this country to actually do that, represent ALL of the citizens, not just heterosexual citizens.

As for me, I have always advocated for a removal of marriage from the duties of the government. I have always thought the government should provide legal recognition of partnerships, the "civil union" approach, and let religious groups offer marriages to those couples who want to add that the extra component to the recognition of their union. Everybody (gay or straight) would receive a "Certificate of Civil Union" from the government. Those couples wanting to get married in the religion of their choice would have to do so with the approval of their religion. If a same-sex couple that are practicing Catholics wants to get a "Certificate of Civil Union", by all means let them. But they are going to need to choose a different religion to follow if they are going to get married because the Catholic Church does not, and should not be made to, offer marriage services for same-sex couples.

It's kinda funny cause when I got married the procedures my (then) wife and I went through with the government were very much like what I have suggested be done with Civil Unions except when we were done with filling out the paperwork we got a county approved "Marriage Certificate" even though we never set foot in a church for our actual wedding ceremony.

[marden]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Umm, NO ONE in the debate on same-sex marriage has ever advocated forcing religious institutions to perform same-sex religious marriage ceremonies if it goes against the beliefs of said institution. It has always been about forcing government institutions to perform same-sex civil/secular marriage ceremonies. It's about forcing the government institutions that represent ALL of the citizens in this country to actually do that, represent ALL of the citizens, not just heterosexual citizens.

As for me, I have always advocated for a removal of marriage from the duties of the government. I have always thought the government should provide legal recognition of partnerships, the "civil union" approach, and let religious groups offer marriages to those couples who want to add that the extra component to the recognition of their union. Everybody (gay or straight) would receive a "Certificate of Civil Union" from the government. Those couples wanting to get married in the religion of their choice would have to do so with the approval of their religion. If a same-sex couple that are practicing Catholics wants to get a "Certificate of Civil Union", by all means let them. But they are going to need to choose a different religion to follow if they are going to get married because the Catholic Church does not, and should not be made to, offer marriage services for same-sex couples.

It's kinda funny cause when I got married the procedures my (then) wife and I went through with the government were very much like what I have suggested be done with Civil Unions except when we were done with filling out the paperwork we got a county approved "Marriage Certificate" even though we never set foot in a church for our actual wedding ceremony.

Are you trying to say you once had a same sex "marriage?" Well, it wasn't recognized in every state in the union and that's as close as you'd get to having official sanctioning. Staying in that county or state where it was recognized.

But let's not get off on that tangent. We're talking about America's ULTIMATE outsiders, atheists.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by spindler

And since THERE IS NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that atheists are statistically less moral in any way (except perhaps abortion, if you are against that) there should be no reason to like one group more than the other.

See, even still you're falling for the trap of painting all atheists with the same brush. I'm an atheist, and I'm anti-abortion, and for much the same reasons as the religious 'pro-lifers'. Religion is not a requirement in having an opinion on an unanswered biological question.

[spindler]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

See, even still you're falling for the trap of painting all atheists with the same brush. I'm an atheist, and I'm anti-abortion, and for much the same reasons as the religious 'pro-lifers'. Religion is not a requirement in having an opinion on an unanswered biological question.

I was just trying to be thorough. There are no statistics that show that atheists are any less moral. But I would have to say that atheists probably are for abortion in higher percentage than the average population. I mean a lot of people are are simply against abortion since they are religious.

It's kind of like the question of do Atheists dress as nicely on weekends as religious people. Even if they dress as nicely on the weekdays, merely by the fact that religious people are dressing more nicely on Sunday to go to church, it most likely will raise their total average for the weekend higher than atheists.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by marden

Most people are religious. That includes liberals and Democrats. Atheists may be liberal and may be Democrats but they are the lowest common denomonater but they raise more crap than their numbers

Very preachy on the internet too.

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Afraid of what??

Kr0nos you know exactly what he was talking about. And everyone here knows you wouldn't do squat.

[stephenr]

that a country supposedly as "great" as the US is, i cant beleive your laws are so strongly defined by the silly stories made up to scare little kids.

belief in god(whatever form) does not make u a good person. in fact. usually the opposite. religious people are usually the most closed minded, biggoted. "you cant do xyz (ie homosexuality, sex before marriage, believe in what u like) because god (who has YET TO BE PROVEN TO EXIST) said you shouldnt.


in reality. christianity probably started the same way as Church of Scientology. some guy wanted to make a packet back in 20BC and started a cult.


in reality. government telling people they cant get married because they are gay (due to religious beliefs) or saying that atheists "dont count as citizens" is no better than women not being able to work/vote, or arabs circumcising girls (effectively preventing them from achieving orgasm) at birth.

maybe if you elected people on their damn policy, instead of what they say/believe about some mythical guy in the sky, your country wouldn't be quite so f%^&ed up.


I hope WWIII is a purely religious thing. let all the crazy people go kill each other. the atheiests (ie: the smart people) will stay back and have punch and pie.

[marden]

Originally Posted by stephenr

that a country supposedly as "great" as the US is, i cant beleive your laws are so strongly defined by the silly stories made up to scare little kids.

belief in god(whatever form) does not make u a good person. in fact. usually the opposite. religious people are usually the most closed minded, biggoted. "you cant do xyz (ie homosexuality, sex before marriage, believe in what u like) because god (who has YET TO BE PROVEN TO EXIST) said you shouldnt.


in reality. christianity probably started the same way as Church of Scientology. some guy wanted to make a packet back in 20BC and started a cult.


in reality. government telling people they cant get married because they are gay (due to religious beliefs) or saying that atheists "dont count as citizens" is no better than women not being able to work/vote, or arabs circumcising girls (effectively preventing them from achieving orgasm) at birth.

maybe if you elected people on their damn policy, instead of what they say/believe about some mythical guy in the sky, your country wouldn't be quite so f%^&ed up.


I hope WWIII is a purely religious thing. let all the crazy people go kill each other. the atheiests (ie: the smart people) will stay back and have punch and pie.

I knew someone would come along and serve up an example of what's so odious about atethists. And not ALL atheists are that bad but the ones I object to all are bad in the same way. As highlighted above.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Very preachy on the internet too.

And what they preach doesn't help anyone except them. And they are against the health and survival of America.

[stephenr]

ok. see. CLEARLY you have no idea how to understand HUMOR or SARCASM, and you ASSUME too many things.

supposedly as "great" as the US is
Did you highlight this because you think i'm 'bashing' the US because im an atheist? Do you think im not a patriot?

in reality. christianity probably started the same way as Church of Scientology. some guy wanted to make a packet back in 20BC and started a cult
You call Scientology a cult, because they beleive in crazy things that are absurd. How about a guy coming back from the dead? isnt that a bit "absurd"?

saying that atheists "dont count as citizens" is no better than women not being able to work/vote, or arabs circumcising girls
what are you pointing out here? that women SHOULDNT be allowed to vote/work? what about blacks? hell. if an atheist isnt an american citizen because he doesnt believe in god, how is an american hindu, jew, buddhist or muslim a citizen? they dont all beleive in the SAME god now, do they? so why should they be "better" just because they believe in "something"?

your country wouldn't be quite so f%^&ed up
you're claiming it isnt f%^&ed up?

I hope WWIII is a purely religious thing. let all the crazy people go kill each other. the atheiests (ie: the smart people) will stay back and have punch and pie
What? its not like the all the other wars havent been about religion in some way, so why should the next one be any different?

[Taliesin]

America's ultimate outsiders? I don't think that muslims, jews, gays, hindus, sikhs, mexicans nor atheists are the ultimate outsiders.

I think the ultmate outsiders are those people that have to sleep on the street, under bridges, in parks... and that have to search bins to find something to eat.

Usually they have no home, no TV, no wife, no children, no job, and everyone that walks besides them doesn't even see them, they are truly on the ignore-list, and when they die, they don't even get a decent burying.

Taliesin

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

The atheists I've run across in my life have generally been a lot more moral, kind, loving AND definitely more open to reason than their religious counterparts (especially compared to "born again" evangelists and radical muslims).

I think both you and Marden are grossly generalizing in this. I am a Christian. I attend a non-denominational Church and I'm actively involved in that Church. I'm probably among the most accepting people you'll meet. You may not agree with me politically, but this does not mean I'm attempting to force-feed my views to anyone. I would also say I'm not the most moral, kind, and loving person, but definitely open to reason. The only 'reason' I take issue with is that which is founded not upon support of their ideal, but opposition to someone else's ideal. Labels such as "fundie" for example do not to me wreak of enlightenment and intellect. One of my best friends is an atheist. He is more successful monetarily, but then working hard has been the way for he and his wife. They've decided to have children and while I might disagree with the notion of having children so strangers could raise them, I don't dislike him. We don't see eye to eye on this. He doesn't think I should listen to evangelists' sermons, but he doesn't dislike me over this. He'd give you the shirt off his back and has always been a great guy. I would do the same for him. Enlightenment is accepting the fact that we will always have differences, it's our similarities that bind us.

I think the major problem is that the average American doesn't have a lot of exposure to the "real world" and that, traditionally, they have just believed in too much BS and FUD (compared to most other industrialized, (post) modern nations).

I'm not sure this is supported by travel statistics. Suffice it to say, Americans may have a little more "nationalism", but then they've built one hell of a country in their short go of it. I'd be curious to know what your ideal of the "real world" is.

I believe it irks the fundies that non-believers can become successful in life and hold culturally important positions without (in their eyes) doing the right thing. It's not so much that most atheists are "elitist", but that the "cultural elite" (which they actually aren't, but for the sake of the discussion let's just call'em that) doesn't believe in half the stupid sh1t the "average joe" does (I'm sorry, I'm not trying to offend people in the middle class here).

So... offensive banter is just more unavoidable for the culturally elite? Again, terms like "stupid sh1t" are not indicative of vastly superior intellect. We Americans refer to that as sounding "white trash".

While it's true that some intellectuals do believe in "God" (in whatever shape or form) you'll be hard pressed to find a literalist or fundamentalist among them. Believing in things like the "rapture", creationism or a physical concept of heaven or hell, is, IMO, something for people who are either incredibly dumb or completely ignorant...or both.

I've always been content to say; "I don't know". Belief in these things is not necessary to be a Christian. I generally let theologists and other such intellectuals discuss those things and I actively listen. When it comes to Creationism, I'm disheartened by their methodology (or lack thereof in regards to science) and I find those who support their "science" lack general understanding in most cases, but I listen to all. Openness requires more discipline than only hearing views of those who agree with you.

Slowly but surely, the neo-cons and their brainwashed followers are realizing that spreading their FUD isn't working on anybody with an IQ above 10. The power of nightmares is fading away faster than people's confidence in the President.

Terms like "neo-con" (since that can apply to anyone from Rumsfeld to Hillary Clinton) and FUD are actually falling on deaf ears much like the indictments against the Bush Administration for being behind 9/11. None of these are working on those with an IQ above 10 either. Particularly the average, more educated voter.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

America's ultimate outsiders? I don't think that muslims, jews, gays, hindus, sikhs, mexicans nor atheists are the ultimate outsiders.

I think the ultmate outsiders are those people that have to sleep on the street, under bridges, in parks... and that have to search bins to find something to eat.

Usually they have no home, no TV, no wife, no children, no job, and everyone that walks besides them doesn't even see them, they are truly on the ignore-list, and when they die, they don't even get a decent burying.

Taliesin

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by stephenr

that a country supposedly as "great" as the US is, i cant beleive your laws are so strongly defined by the silly stories made up to scare little kids.

belief in god(whatever form) does not make u a good person. in fact. usually the opposite. religious people are usually the most closed minded, biggoted. "you cant do xyz (ie homosexuality, sex before marriage, believe in what u like) because god (who has YET TO BE PROVEN TO EXIST) said you shouldnt.


in reality. christianity probably started the same way as Church of Scientology. some guy wanted to make a packet back in 20BC and started a cult.


in reality. government telling people they cant get married because they are gay (due to religious beliefs) or saying that atheists "dont count as citizens" is no better than women not being able to work/vote, or arabs circumcising girls (effectively preventing them from achieving orgasm) at birth.

maybe if you elected people on their damn policy, instead of what they say/believe about some mythical guy in the sky, your country wouldn't be quite so f%^&ed up.


I hope WWIII is a purely religious thing. let all the crazy people go kill each other. the atheiests (ie: the smart people) will stay back and have punch and pie.

Where are you from sir? Shall we critique the cultural fabric of your yet, un-named place of origin? You've apparently been hitting the punch a little hard already.

You might know, this country is very young by all standards and I'd say while we've had a turbulent past, we're giving it a mighty good go.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Believing in things like... a physical concept of heaven or hell, is, IMO, something for people who are either incredibly dumb or completely ignorant...or both.

I want to hear your reasoning, why you think that it is incredibly dumb and ignorant or both to believe in a physical heaven/paradise or hell.

Taliesin

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by stephenr

that a country supposedly as "great" as the US is, i cant beleive your laws are so strongly defined by the silly stories made up to scare little kids.

belief in god(whatever form) does not make u a good person. in fact. usually the opposite. religious people are usually the most closed minded, biggoted. "you cant do xyz (ie homosexuality, sex before marriage, believe in what u like) because god (who has YET TO BE PROVEN TO EXIST) said you shouldnt.


in reality. christianity probably started the same way as Church of Scientology. some guy wanted to make a packet back in 20BC and started a cult.


in reality. government telling people they cant get married because they are gay (due to religious beliefs) or saying that atheists "dont count as citizens" is no better than women not being able to work/vote, or arabs circumcising girls (effectively preventing them from achieving orgasm) at birth.

maybe if you elected people on their damn policy, instead of what they say/believe about some mythical guy in the sky, your country wouldn't be quite so f%^&ed up.


I hope WWIII is a purely religious thing. let all the crazy people go kill each other. the atheiests (ie: the smart people) will stay back and have punch and pie.

I love it when biggoted hateful people complain about biggoted hateful people.

You should really read your posts before hitting the submit button.

Now remove your foot.

BTW the religious aren't the only ones that are anti-gay marriages.

And BTW most religious aren't against gays getting EQUAL treatment.

They just want to call it something else.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

I want to hear your reasoning, why you think that it is incredibly dumb and ignorant or both to believe in a physical heaven/paradise or hell.

Taliesin

Ignore it. It's just him attempting to convince himself.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Ignore it. It's just him attempting to convince himself.

I don't think so. Maybe he has some good reasoning for that drastic claim, and if that is so, I look forward to hear it.

Taliesin

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

I don't think so. Maybe he has some good reasoning for that drastic claim, and if that is so, I look forward to hear it.

Taliesin

People are vane by nature Taliesin. One may think you are stupid not by virtue of whether or not your argument has merit, but by how aligned you are with their reasoning. In the same breath they will tell you that you are intolerant, closed-minded, and stupid.

The irony of it all will continue to elude them. It always has.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

People are vane by nature Taliesin. One may think you are stupid not by virtue of whether or not your argument has merit, but by how aligned you are with their reasoning. In the same breath they will tell you that you are intolerant, closed-minded, and stupid.

The irony of it all will continue to elude them. It always has.

It just happened above. I don't know why they aren't able to see it.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

People are vane by nature Taliesin. One may think you are stupid not by virtue of whether or not your argument has merit, but by how aligned you are with their reasoning. In the same breath they will tell you that you are intolerant, closed-minded, and stupid.

The irony of it all will continue to elude them. It always has.

May well be the case, but on the other hand it's possible that Kronos has really some good reasoning for that claim, and I would definitely like to hear that reasoning.

Taliesin

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Kevin

It just happened above. I don't know why they aren't able to see it.

Good point Kevin. It seems to me that a degree of introspect is in order to see these things. If you never allow yourself the opportunity of viewing your ship from the shore, you'll never see the crack in the bow. You'll always just see the very point you're standing on.

One defining trait of an "elitist" IMHO, is the inability to have the degree of humility necessary for introspect. This leads to possessing the very qualities they claim to hate.