[subego]

The hippy-dippy private school I went to as a lad currently costs $18K per year in tuition.

The Chicago Public School system (CPS) spends $15K per student per year.

I got a really good education. CPS is a ****ing disaster. This system seems utterly broken to me. What am I missing?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

I got a really good education. CPS is a ****ing disaster. This system seems utterly broken to me. What am I missing?

External factors: Income and support for children going to the 18k school are not the same as those going to public school.

[subego]

While true, I'm not sure this accounts for the disparity in quality of what the different schools offer.

Is the income disparity in the students responsible for CPS having a much higher teacher to student ratio, or poorer quality materials? I mean, some disparity is to be expected, CPS has only 80% of the resources, but it strikes me the quality of what's provided appears to be much less than 80% of the private school.

IIUC, as opposed to quality provided, you're discussing quality used by the students, which is a different issue.

[The Final Dakar]

No, income disparity within the children's homes. Parental income has a strong influence on outcome.

[subego]

I got that part. I'm saying something like teacher to student ratio or poor materials aren't an outcome of parental influence, financial or otherwise.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

I got that part. I'm saying something like teacher to student ratio or poor materials aren't an outcome of parental influence, financial or otherwise.

Yeah, and I'm saying maybe that doesn't matter as much as you think.

[OAW]

The CPS may spend $15K per student if you look at total expenditures divided by the student population. But when one factors in the actual instructional component of that spending the numbers may look very different. Also, it doesn't help that in the CPS all the school closings that the Emanuel administration pushed through resulted in kids having to navigate through various different gang territories to and from school. Spending aside ... if one is a kid trying to survive in "Chiraq" that will certainly impact the educational outcomes.

OAW

[BLAZE_MkIV]

People aren't uniform either. You need to account for difference in the student populations as well.

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Yeah, and I'm saying maybe that doesn't matter as much as you think.

I still feel like we're talking about different things.

My question isn't "why does the hippy dippy school have better outcomes than CPS?"

My question is "why does hippy dippy school have significantly better materials and a significantly higher teacher to student ratio than CPS with only a 20% bump in resources?"

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

My question isn't "why does the hippy dippy school have better outcomes than CPS?"

My question is "why does hippy dippy school have significantly better materials and a significantly higher teacher to student ratio than CPS with only a 20% bump in resources?"

Ah. I suppose the easy answer is bureaucracy.

[subego]

Originally Posted by OAW 

The CPS may spend $15K per student if you look at total expenditures divided by the student population. But when one factors in the actual instructional component of that spending the numbers may look very different.

That's the problem.

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Ah. I suppose the easy answer is bureaucracy.

Considering how much of a disaster CPS is (and by disaster I mean in a concrete sense, teacher to student ratios and the like) when compared to my hippy dippy school, isn't this bureaucracy broken?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

Considering how much of a disaster CPS is (and by disaster I mean in a concrete sense, teacher to student ratios and the like) when compared to my hippy dippy school, isn't this bureaucracy broken?

Since when does anyone look at the word bureaucracy positively?

[subego]

Somebody does, otherwise it wouldn't exist.

Are you in favor of eliminating it?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

Somebody does, otherwise it wouldn't exist.

Are you in favor of eliminating it?

Ok, we're on two different wavelengths here. I'm talking about the word, and you're talking the concept. As far as the concept goes, if you have any people above you making decisions, in this layman's opinion, that's bureaucracy. Every organization has it.

[Captain Obvious]

Private schools can fire bad teachers since they aren't protected by the CPS union.

Private school students usually have parents who are involved in their kid's lives and don't expect the school to raise their children for them.

Private schools can kick out kids with behavioral issues in the classroom.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Parental income has a strong influence on outcome.

You confuse correlation for causation

[ghporter]

Private school: limited physical plant (buildings), limited human resources issues/population, limited (often selective) student population. That $18k each goes a long way.

Public school: lots of (aging, decaying) physical plant; vast human resources population with often multiple issues per employee; vast, varied and totally unselected student population. $15k each isn't nearly enough.

The problem with Enormous Public School Organizations is that as they get bigger, they get less efficient. Chicago is a very large city with somewhere near 3 times the population of San Antonio. San Antonio has several, completely autonomous (of each other) school districts, which allows those districts to be more flexible and accommodate their populations somewhat better.

The school district that includes where I live, Northside Independent School District, is the 4th largest in Texas with over 100k students. They spend an average of about $7800 per student per year (not enough for some students), which includes everyone from the Type AAA+++ super kids to children with enormously huge health and cognitive issues. If a child tries, and that child's family provides the support the child needs (and the child isn't cognitively/intellectually challenged), that child can get a good to very good education. But as was noted above, that parental engagement is almost totally tied to household income. And that is often based not on "poor people don't care," (a lie at best), but "parents are spending so much time out of the home trying to make a living that they don't have time to help their children learn."

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Ok, we're on two different wavelengths here. I'm talking about the word, and you're talking the concept. As far as the concept goes, if you have any people above you making decisions, in this layman's opinion, that's bureaucracy. Every organization has it.

We are on different wavelengths because I'm actually talking neither. I'm talking about the CPS bureaucracy. I'm saying it acts as such a drag on the quality of education provided, it needs to be thrown out and the system needs to be redesigned.

I am offering it as an example of a bureaucracy which has gotten out of control. All bureaucracies are not this far gone, though I would say there are a lot of them.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious 

You confuse correlation for causation

Not from what I've read. Perhaps you've read something different.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

We are on different wavelengths because I'm actually talking neither. I'm talking about the CPS bureaucracy. I'm saying it acts as such a drag on the quality of education provided, it needs to be thrown out and the system needs to be redesigned.

I am offering it as an example of a bureaucracy which has gotten out of control. All bureaucracies are not this far gone, though I would say there are a lot of them.

That seems to be the case with the entire education system in our country, though. The results don't match expenditures. I don't think many are opposed to redesigning the system per se, but how do you tear it down and rebuild it without disrupting the education of those already within the system?

[subego]

Summer.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

Summer.

3 months to build a new school system from the ground up?

[subego]

I was being flip.

How it would be done would depend on the replacement system, I guess. Vouchers?

There are sane people who FTFO at the voucher idea, but I forget what the problem is.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

I was being flip.

How it would be done would depend on the replacement system, I guess. Vouchers?

There are sane people who FTFO at the voucher idea, but I forget what the problem is.

I believe the issue is vouchers will make bad school systems worse. That or it opens the door for predatory private schools.

[subego]

Fair point. I'll think about it.

[The Final Dakar]

This seems timely
Barbara Byrd-Bennett corruption indictment: Ex-CPS CEO cooperates with investigation.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

Fair point. I'll think about it.

FYI, I don't have a strong opinion on the subject, but the first point seems completely logical. A bad school's funding will get worse and worse.

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

This seems timely
Barbara Byrd-Bennett corruption indictment: Ex-CPS CEO cooperates with investigation.

You maniacs! You turned it into a megathread! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!

[The Final Dakar]

Sorry

[subego]

I'm teasing. Be my guest.