[reader50]

The pints thing is a non-issue. After you've had a few, they start to water them. So the pints get bigger the more you drink.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

I saw you at the LSU game.

(Sorry for the OT post.)

Whaaaat? This is a joke, right?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by reader50 

The pints thing is a non-issue. After you've had a few, they start to water them. So the pints get bigger the more you drink.

I never drink more than 2 anywhere.

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

Whaaaat? This is a joke, right?

Nope, either it was you or your perfect doppelganger; hair (style and color), build, height, facial structure, even your glasses. One of the cameras focused on a section of fans during the game and I looked at my wife and said, "There's Jawbone." "Who?" "A guy who belongs to a forum I frequent." "You sure?" "Yep. It's either him, or an identical twin who just happens to dress the same way."

[Laminar]

I hate US units for drill bit sizes. For this hole I need a 9/32" bit. But wait, I need to enlarge it just a little bit. Better get a 5/16". Since most vehicles since the '80s (US-made or otherwise) has used some combination of US and Metric hardware, constant conversion back and forth is required. The proper size for a 6mm tapped hole is 5mm. Super convenient, right? Haha just kidding since basically every drill bit set in the US is fractional. Okay, 5mm is 0.19685 inches. What's that in a fraction? There's no clear, easy conversion. So you have to whip out a calculator and start guessing-and-checking. So what's 9 divided by 32? 0.28125. Nope, too big. Um...7 divided by 32? 0.28175. Still too big, 5/32? 0.15625. Too small. 3/16? 0.1875, closer. Naturally the next step up from 3/16 is 13/64. That just logically follows, right, cause 13 comes after 3? That's 0.203125. Close enough. Yes, they make charts for this stuff. No, it's still not as convenient as using a 5mm bit to end up with a 6mm tapped hole.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

I'm not sure what you mean. I'm saying it's a feature that is a pro for it. I'm not claiming the people who came up with the system realized it was a great feature.

Yep, definitely a pro:

Originally Posted by Laminar 

I hate US units for drill bit sizes. For this hole I need a 9/32" bit. But wait, I need to enlarge it just a little bit. Better get a 5/16". Since most vehicles since the '80s (US-made or otherwise) has used some combination of US and Metric hardware, constant conversion back and forth is required. The proper size for a 6mm tapped hole is 5mm. Super convenient, right? Haha just kidding since basically every drill bit set in the US is fractional. Okay, 5mm is 0.19685 inches. What's that in a fraction? There's no clear, easy conversion. So you have to whip out a calculator and start guessing-and-checking. So what's 9 divided by 32? 0.28125. Nope, too big. Um...7 divided by 32? 0.28175. Still too big, 5/32? 0.15625. Too small. 3/16? 0.1875, closer. Naturally the next step up from 3/16 is 13/64. That just logically follows, right, cause 13 comes after 3? That's 0.203125. Close enough. Yes, they make charts for this stuff. No, it's still not as convenient as using a 5mm bit to end up with a 6mm tapped hole.

Shit being divisible by a larger number of integers is WAY helpful in ways I'm Just. Not. Seeing.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

So far, it has been, everyone has given me one imperial pint, even in the USA.

Try that here, and you're getting a 0.5.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Shit being divisible by a larger number of integers is WAY helpful in ways I'm Just. Not. Seeing.

Your proof it's a bad system is that it doesn't play well with metric?

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Your proof it's a bad system is that it doesn't play well with metric?

Or itself even. Moving between fractions is monumentally more difficult than moving decimal points.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by reader50 

The pints thing is a non-issue. After you've had a few, they start to water them. So the pints get bigger the more you drink.

Any pub that waters down their beer deserves a few Molotovs.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Since most vehicles since the '80s (US-made or otherwise) has used some combination of US and Metric hardware, constant conversion back and forth is required.

In the same car there are Metric and Imperial nuts and bolts?????

[Spheric Harlot]

Yes. No vehicle is the product of any one country, and buying parts off the shelf gets you metric everywhere in the world except one country.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Yes. No vehicle is the product of any one country, and buying parts off the shelf gets you metric everywhere in the world except one country.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean here.

Parts in a car made for the European market have both Imperial and metric nuts and bolts?

[Spheric Harlot]

Cars made in America have a happy mix of locally-sourced (Imperial) parts and metric parts from overseas suppliers.

You're not going to find any imperial parts in a Daihatsu or a Renault in France, though. My post wasn't clear, sorry.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Try that here, and you're getting a 0.5.

Haha yes...I think Shaddim must be joking, but he does it so rarely we're not getting it. In my experience "a pint" is definitely not the same size in different areas of the world...but of course it's also not the same size in two bars in the same town, either. We're talking mls here....

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Moving between fractions is monumentally more difficult than moving decimal points.

I have no strong opinion on the subject as I avoid math like the plague, but that's my intuition as well.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

All our cars still have MPH on the speedometer......look closer! But that one's easy, it's just a straight multiplication factor.

Ha...I know. It's not a problem while I'm actually driving.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Nope, either it was you or your perfect doppelganger; hair (style and color), build, height, facial structure, even your glasses. One of the cameras focused on a section of fans during the game and I looked at my wife and said, "There's Jawbone." "Who?" "A guy who belongs to a forum I frequent." "You sure?" "Yep. It's either him, or an identical twin who just happens to dress the same way."

Bahahaha...

No, it wasn't me. I wish it was. I actually live about 4 hours away from Death Valley, and I have yet to go in person. I was watching though.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by Laminar

Since most vehicles since the '80s (US-made or otherwise) has used some combination of US and Metric hardware, constant conversion back and forth is required.

Originally Posted by mattyb 

In the same car there are Metric and Imperial nuts and bolts?????

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Yes. No vehicle is the product of any one country, and buying parts off the shelf gets you metric everywhere in the world except one country.

For some reason, that greatly unsettles me.

[Spheric Harlot]

It's certainly annoying as **** if you deal with anything assembled in America.

Thankfully, getting Imperial-threaded screws has become WAY easier since the internets.

I had to get some stuff specifically cut by a boat-supplies hardware store for some of my older gear back in the 90s.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

It's certainly annoying as **** if you deal with anything assembled in America.

Thankfully, getting Imperial-threaded screws has become WAY easier since the internets.

I had to get some stuff specifically cut by a boat-supplies hardware store for some of my older gear back in the 90s.

All you need is high torque screw gun to jam any size screw into any hole.

[Spheric Harlot]

Not if the goal is to get the handscrew loose again and remove the legs and leg struts of the piano after every show.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Cars made in America have a happy mix of locally-sourced (Imperial) parts and metric parts from overseas suppliers.

By now, most everything is metric. Ford's 302 engine was introduced in 1969 and was used through 2000 on the Explorer. So it used US-spec hardware except for parts of the fuel injection system that were adapted in the '80s, that uses some metric stuff. The Contour/Mondeo was designed as a global car in the early '90s, so it was almost entirely metric, as was the Escort and other global/worldwide cars. By now, most everything is metric, but there are still some holdouts like the lug nuts. On my Edge where everything else is metric, they're 1/2"-20 studs, and the lug nuts are removed with a 19mm socket.

But even then some things are universally in inches, like tire diameters. Japan, Germany, UK, US, doesn't matter.

In the US, wheels are measured in US units, but tires are measured in a combination. I was looking for a set of winter wheels, so I grabbed a set of 17" diameter by 7.5" width wheels. But the bolt hole spacing in the wheels is specified in metric - 5 bolt holes in a 112mm diameter circle. To fit those wheels, I got a set of 235/65-R17 tires. That's 235mm wide (9.25 inches), the sidewall height is 65% of the tire's width, and a diameter of 17". Unless you're talking about offroad tires, those are specific in inches - 35" mud boggers will get you through some tough terrain.

The tire/wheel industry has decided 1" increments to be convenient - 13", 14", 15", 16", 17", 18", 19", 20", are all common wheel diameters, universally. Getting rid of US measurements means retooling the entire wheel and tire industry worldwide.

It's a cluster.

[Gene Jockey]

Sometimes driving long distances on the interstate I start to realize how hard it would be to change over the US. All the mile markers, exits, speed limit signs...ugh. There'd be make work for years.

[el chupacabra]

It'd be nice if the first thing the government did was mandate that all things made with screws, nuts, and bolts use the metric version. Im not a fan of having to buy 2 of every tool, or having to break out 2 versions of the same tool set just to work on 1 car. Such a waste.

It would be easy to make the switch if they did it 1 unit of scale at a time. Ounces to grams one year, lb to kg the next year etc.. Getting rid of the mile would take a while but thats ok.

Us scientists and engineers already think in both versions but it's still easy to get them mixed up by anybody, which sometimes leads to costly disaster. The climate orbiter crashed into mars thanks to the English system.

[subego]

For raw science, I can't even imagine using English units.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

It'd be nice if the first thing the government did was mandate that all things made with screws, nuts, and bolts use the metric version. Im not a fan of having to buy 2 of every tool, or having to break out 2 versions of the same tool set just to work on 1 car. Such a waste.

Contrary to popular belief, there is still a manufacturing industry in the US and forcing an immediate switchover to metric units would be catastrophically expensive. You have to start with the raw materials suppliers industry - wood, steel, aluminum, etc. would be switched over to metric units for length, width and thickness. Then you'd have to redo every building code in the nation because 2x4 no longer means shit. Then every American manufacturer would have to totally redesign every one of their products that uses any sort of raw materials - we no longer have 16 gauge sheet metal, or 2 inch plate; we have 1.5mm sheet metal and 50mm plate. Strength is different, every design has to be redone to accommodate, every manufacturing process reconfigured.

Even if someone mandated that all new products going forward have to be metric, simply stocking the raw materials in two different measurement formats would be a logistics nightmare and is just begging for mistakes, failures, and even deaths.

It would be easy to make the switch if they did it 1 unit of scale at a time. Ounces to grams one year, lb to kg the next year etc..

That sounds...terrible.

[subego]

I've kinda always gotten the impression 2x4 doesn't mean shit as it stands.

At least in terms of relating to the numbers 2 and 4 to an actual unit.

[reader50]

Ditto. And the actual size of a 2x4 isn't even consistent.

Just pass a labeling requirement, like with food sizes today. Where the metric size/weight/etc must be listed. The english measurement is optional, and if present, must be no bigger type than the metric size. As to road signs, replace them with dual-type signs as the old signs wear out. After 20 years of this, nearly all signs should have been updated. So after 20, replace with metric-only signs. Again, only as they wear out.

Speaking of 2x4s, has anyone else noticed that real-sized plywood vanished in the last several years? 3/4" plywood is now 23/32. 5/8 and 1/2 also got shaved.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by reader50 

Ditto. And the actual size of a 2x4 isn't even consistent.

Speaking of 2x4s, has anyone else noticed that real-sized plywood vanished in the last several years? 3/4" plywood is now 23/32. 5/8 and 1/2 also got shaved.

2x4s are almost always 1.5 x 3.5 inches, by any measure that would be applicable in building. Pressure treated lumber can vary by a decent amount, and trim boards above 6" are a quarter inch past one inch under labeled sizes (so 1x4 is 3/4x3.5 inches, 1x8 is 3/4 by 7.25 inches) which is baffling.

Plywood sold at 32nds and 64ths I believe is translated from metric...even though it is 4 feet by 8 feet.

Our system is screwed, but abruptly changing everything over would be impossible, like Laminar said.

[P]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

You have to start with the raw materials suppliers industry - wood, steel, aluminum, etc. would be switched over to metric units for length, width and thickness.

Ironically, this sort of thing is the one area where things are mostly inch-based over here. Not that anyone calls it a 2x4 - it is listed in cm or mm - but the sizes are all from that.

[P]

Originally Posted by reader50 

Just pass a labeling requirement, like with food sizes today. Where the metric size/weight/etc must be listed. The english measurement is optional, and if present, must be no bigger type than the metric size.

This is how you do it. Leave a couple of loopholes for units commonly used in advertising (like horsepower) but update the inches to mm and gallons to litres - both of those are easy enough to convert anyway, so it will be close enough to even numbers with the tolerances used for consumer goods.

Originally Posted by reader50 

As to road signs, replace them with dual-type signs as the old signs wear out. After 20 years of this, nearly all signs should have been updated. So after 20, replace with metric-only signs. Again, only as they wear out.

The big problem is the speed limits. You don't want confusion about that, and you don't want modify the dashboard of every car on the market, so there is a real problem with how you do it. Only way I can see is to mandate that newly made cars be equipped with a switch to show the speed in km/h - easy with modern digital dashboards - and then start switching over the signs after a decade or two.

[Waragainstsleep]

Don't most cars have mph and kph on the dials already? Have for years over here.

[Laminar]

Yes, every car sold in the US displays in both mph and kph.



Fords with digital speed, distance, and volume displays all have a menu option to switch to Metric units. The rental place in Canada was grumpy with me for switching their Escape to display mpg instead of L/100km.

[P]

I know the dials look like that in the UK, but I've never had the pleasure of driving in the US. Glad to hear it.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Don't most cars have mph and kph on the dials already? Have for years over here.

Except for some small boutique makers (<100 cars /yr), yes. It just makes sense, from a production standpoint.

[andi*pandi]

I get mm and cm and meters in principle... I recall making a meter stick and yard stick in elementary school. I learned the C->F conversion formula. I appreciate the fewer fractions of the metric system. I do. I'm not lost when we cross the border into Canada and have to start thinking in km.

But I prefer inches in usage. I prefer recipes with teaspoons and cups, not grams.

A4 paper? what is that? Odd shape.

[P]

Ah yes, paper sizes, thanks for reminding me. I can't count the number of times I've had to reset printers because someone accidentally printed US Letter. These days most printers auto replace US Letter with A4, because that quarter of an inch extra width is just small enough to do that, but it was not always so. That is one area where a change would be cheap and easy to do, but I guess it doesn't matter much.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by P 

The big problem is the speed limits. You don't want confusion about that, and you don't want modify the dashboard of every car on the market, so there is a real problem with how you do it. Only way I can see is to mandate that newly made cars be equipped with a switch to show the speed in km/h - easy with modern digital dashboards - and then start switching over the signs after a decade or two.

Start switching all signs to dual units immediately as they are due for replacement (every ten years or so), and switch them to metric a cycle or two after that.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

But I prefer inches in usage. I prefer recipes with teaspoons and cups, not grams.

Teaspoons and tablespoons are fine, as those are approximate measurements, about as accurate as "a pinch". We use those too, here.

Cups, I have no idea. I don't have any cups. My coffee comes in mugs and bowls.

A4 paper? what is that? Odd shape.

A4 isn't really metric. It's DIN (Deutsche Industrie Norm), and it's based on the fact that you can fold an A0 sheet four times to get this size.

A0 is 841 mm × 1189 mm = 1 m^2, so it's kinda metric.

[mattyb]

I know that its only a small population, but if Sweden can change what side of the road they drive on (Dagen H - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) then people can change to another system of measurement. A few million changed to the Euro not so long ago, and the Brits used pounds shillings and pence up until 1960 :

Under this system, there were twelve pence in a shilling and twenty shillings, or 240 pence, in a pound. The penny was subdivided into four farthings until 31 December 1960, when they ceased to be legal tender in the UK, and until 31 July 1969 there were also two halfpennies in circulation. The advantage of such a system was its use in mental arithmetic, as it afforded many factors and hence fractions of a pound such as tenths, eighths, sixths and even sevenths if the guinea (worth 21 shillings) was used. When dealing with items in dozens, multiplication and division are straightforward; for example, if a dozen eggs cost four shillings, then each egg was priced at fourpence.

[P]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Teaspoons and tablespoons are fine, as those are approximate measurements, about as accurate as "a pinch". We use those too, here.

Cups, I have no idea. I don't have any cups. My coffee comes in mugs and bowls.

We have standardized teaspoons as 5ml and tablespoons as 15ml, but as you say, doesn't really matter. A cup 236 ml, according to Google, so let's call it 250 ml for easier math.

What's funny about US Letter is that is so extremely close to an A4, probably inside manufacturing tolerances, yet it's still around.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by P 

What's funny about US Letter is that is so extremely close to an A4, probably inside manufacturing tolerances, yet it's still around.

That must be Swedish manufacturing tolerances.

18mm difference in length is outside of normal US, let alone German mfg. tolerances.

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Except for some small boutique makers (<100 cars /yr), yes. It just makes sense, from a production standpoint.

Even though most show both MPH and km/h, the spedometers are still different between metric and non-metric.

The local standard is in bigger letters, more visible than the non-local standard.

So, from a mfg. perspective, it's still two different instrument clusters.

-t

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Even though most show both MPH and km/h, the spedometers are still different between metric and non-metric.

The local standard is in bigger letters, more visible than the non-local standard.

So, from a mfg. perspective, it's still two different instrument clusters.

-t

Good point. Well, that's just a stupid waste, then.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

But I prefer inches in usage. I prefer recipes with teaspoons and cups, not grams.

No way! My Google search results are full of "how many tablespoons in 1/2 cup" and things like that every time I try and resize a recipe. If the recipe called for 10mL, sizing in any direction and any proportion is a piece of cake.

[P]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

That must be Swedish manufacturing tolerances.

18mm difference in length is outside of normal US, let alone German mfg. tolerances.
-t

Today, sure, but the standard is from 1922.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Even though most show both MPH and km/h, the spedometers are still different between metric and non-metric.

The local standard is in bigger letters, more visible than the non-local standard.

So, from a mfg. perspective, it's still two different instrument clusters.

-t

Actually European cars usually only have km/h. UK clusters are usually unique anyway (because of right hand drive), so US clusters would have to be unique by default. If they're all adding km/h to the US clusters, it is probably because of some regulation.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by P 

Actually European cars usually only have km/h. UK clusters are usually unique anyway (because of right hand drive), so US clusters would have to be unique by default. If they're all adding km/h to the US clusters, it is probably because of some regulation.

You forget that North America is more than just the United States. We have Canada up north and Mexico down south, both of which are on the metric system, and people do drive from one country to another. I can't speak for Mexican cars, since I've never been there, but in Canada the cars have km/h as the "large type" and MPH as the "small type" on the instrument cluster.

[Laminar]

Mexico has kph larger.

[P]

Originally Posted by Person Man 

You forget that North America is more than just the United States. We have Canada up north and Mexico down south, both of which are on the metric system, and people do drive from one country to another. I can't speak for Mexican cars, since I've never been there, but in Canada the cars have km/h as the "large type" and MPH as the "small type" on the instrument cluster.

I didn't forget - those are probably going to be unique anyway. Canada is pretty strict about including French on an equal level with English, so if there is any text, there needs to be a variant - at the very least with a sticky label. There is usually a common Latin American variant in Spanish, because the South American market is growing, so the Mexicans get that one. Note that I don't work with dashboards specifically, but I'm extrapolating from the parts of the interiors I know.

[mooblie]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

......and the Brits used pounds shillings and pence....up until 1960

(Although some old denomination coins were dropped from circulation prior to changeover) we changed over to decimal currency here in UK in 1971.

And, as alluded to above, US and A4 paper sizes differ by 17.6mm in length and 5.9mm in width - hardly manufacturing tolerances.
(That's about 2/3rds of an inch in length and one quarter of an inch in width!)

[/pedant]

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by P 

I didn't forget - those are probably going to be unique anyway. Canada is pretty strict about including French on an equal level with English, so if there is any text, there needs to be a variant - at the very least with a sticky label.

In Quebec maybe. It's certainly not strict everywhere, though it is optional.