Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > It's getting hot in here; Subego and Laminar debate water breaks

It's getting hot in here; Subego and Laminar debate water breaks
Thread Tools
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 19, 2023, 11:55 PM
 
Because I feel like getting myself in trouble…

As Texas swelters, local rules requiring water breaks for construction workers will soon be nullified

Gov. Greg Abbott approved this week a law that will eliminate city and county ordinances like Austin and Dallas’ mandated water breaks.

https://www.texastribune.org/2023/06...ction-workers/


Whenever I’ve needed to work in extreme heat for an extended period, I don’t take “water breaks”, I hydrate as I go. Is that abnormal?

The Texas Tribune links to the Austin ordinance. It mandates rest breaks. The word “water” is not used anywhere.

Am I in the wrong for being irritated there’s a legitimate argument to be made against the state legislature, but instead I get hyperbole?
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 20, 2023, 08:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Whenever I’ve needed to work in extreme heat for an extended period, I don’t take “water breaks”, I hydrate as I go. Is that abnormal?
Whenever you've done 8-12+ hours of continuous, intense, back-breaking physical labor in 100+ degree temperatures, you've hydrated as you go?
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 20, 2023, 11:23 AM
 
The most recent time I’ve done something like that it was thankfully in the 70s. I hydrated as I went.

If it was 100+, I wouldn’t have?


I’m not saying I’ve ever slung a jackhammer for 12 hours or anything, but working on a film crew can in fact involve long hours of strenuous physical labor.
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 20, 2023, 12:41 PM
 
Where do you get the water? Do you need to go someplace to refill or buy some? Where do you keep it? Does your job allow you to carry a backpack with supplies (ie, is it safe to carry, and/or does your employer not allow it because you'd steal all the widgets?) Does your job require using your hands constantly?

Many jobs only allow timed breaks, and no food/drinks on the production floor. I recall a job interview I went to at a printing company, I was interviewing for a white collar job, and a bell rang. I asked what that was, and HR said, oh, that's group A's coffee break. They had 15 minutes to grab coffee/use the restroom, and get their butts back in desks. Not even a factory or construction job.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 20, 2023, 02:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Where do you keep it?
A canteen?

How common is the scenario where I have no opportunity to walk past a source of water, or have no one to hand it off to, say, once every two hours? How many businesses work outside all day in the middle of a Texas summer and haven’t figured out water logistics?

Do we really need the government to mandate rules for this?

Of course, they didn’t. Like I said, the Austin ordinance doesn’t have the word water in it. It’s not a water break ordinance, it’s a rest break ordinance. Making this about water is diverting attention from the actual subject.

Why would they do that?
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 20, 2023, 03:29 PM
 
It feel like you're taking a position that "the media is being dishonest for clicks," and to do that you're siding against the entirety of worker protections enacted in the last hundred years.

Interestingly, the answer to both "why would the media do this" and "do we really need the government to mandate rules for this" is "because of capitalism."
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 20, 2023, 04:54 PM
 
Does tx not already have laws on the books about regular breaks? Maybe that's why.

Hmm, in MA, if you work 6 hours entitled to 30 min lunch. Surprised that MA does not mandate the 15 min every 3 hours rest break.. but my work does this.
https://www.minimum-wage.org/massach...d-meal-periods
https://www.mass.gov/guides/breaks-and-time-off
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 20, 2023, 08:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The most recent time I’ve done something like that it was thankfully in the 70s. I hydrated as I went.

If it was 100+, I wouldn’t have?
I'm confused by your arguments: were you doing the kind of heavy labor that people do on construction sites? Were you operating heavy machinery with other people in close proximity? And 70 degrees in Freedom Units is a very different kettle of fish than 100 degrees.

Last summer we had those kind of temperatures topped off with the very high humidity that Japan is known for. I went for a bike race. 3 people ended up in ambulances for dehydration (including 2 who were in their early 20s) even though we (= athletes) all drank plenty that day and had time to rest. Plenty of other athletes (including our team captain) were very close to dehydration. I drank at least 7 liters (1.75 gallons) that day and more when I got back home. At those temps, you really want to drink cold liquid as that is the best way to cool you down. A canteen will not hold enough and will warm over the day.

Working in the 70s and the 100s is very different, and you need regular rests just for safety — not just your own, but also the safety of others (again, heavy machinery involved). If you want to call that a rest break and not a water break, ok, but that seems like semantics.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 21, 2023, 01:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
you're siding against the entirety of worker protections enacted in the last hundred years.
What? Where is that impression coming from?

Allow me to repeat what I said in the final paragraph of my initial post on the subject.

There’s a legitimate argument to be made against the state legislature,
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 21, 2023, 02:05 AM
 
There's a more important angle. As Republicans support local government control, someone must have gotten to Gov. Abbott. Whether it's blackmail or extortion, you'd think an important state Governor would have the means to fight back. Whoever's leaning on him must have resources.

Should we do anything to help him? Tip off investigators perhaps? You'd think the RNC would already have noticed, and asked questions. He's not toeing the party line.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 21, 2023, 02:26 AM
 
@Oreo

The particular job I have in mind didn’t involve operating heavy machinery, however I’d say it was probably worse than a typical construction job. At the end of work, my iPhone said I walked 20 miles. Well over 90% of that was in loose sand. The entire time I was either hauling a (balloon tire) wheelbarrow, or going up and down a sand dune.

That 70 degrees is a different kettle than 100+ is exactly my point. I hydrated as I went at 70. That’s not what I do when it’s 100+?

I’m glad you mentioned cycling. Do cyclists in a competition take water breaks, or do they hydrate as they go?

If someone needs to put down 6 or 7 quarts of water to stay hydrated, isn’t the only way to safely do that is hydrate as one goes?

I don’t see the difference between dehydration, which is addressed by water, and exhaustion, which is addressed by rest, as semantic.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 21, 2023, 02:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
As Republicans support local government control
That’s actually the hilarious part of the article, but it’s kind of buried.

One of the defenders of the bill decries municipal ordinances as “one size fits all”, and then with a straight face points to federal oversight as the flexible option.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 21, 2023, 07:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What? Where is that impression coming from?
From here:

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Do we really need the government to mandate rules for this?
All of history says that if the government doesn't specifically mandate worker protections, employers will grind workers into a pulp, especially at the low end of the wage scale and in cases where the employer has significant leverage (working living paycheck-to-paycheck, worker needs job for visa, worker is an illegal immigrant).
     
Thorzdad
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 21, 2023, 08:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
There's a more important angle. As Republicans support local government control, someone must have gotten to Gov. Abbott. Whether it's blackmail or extortion, you'd think an important state Governor would have the means to fight back. Whoever's leaning on him must have resources.
There’s a growing movement in republican-dominated legislatures to pass bills limiting, or outright banning, local ordinances cities enact. That most large cities tend to be democratic is merely a coincidence.

For instance, here in Indianapolis, the city council was in the process of enacting an ordinance allowing the city to ban right-turn-on-red at selected intersections, in order to better facilitate pedestrian and biker safety. The republican supermajority state legislature got wind of this and quickly passed a bill directly forbidding Indy from doing this.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 21, 2023, 08:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
All of history says that if the government doesn't specifically mandate worker protections, employers will grind workers into a pulp, especially at the low end of the wage scale and in cases where the employer has significant leverage (working living paycheck-to-paycheck, worker needs job for visa, worker is an illegal immigrant).
Texas doesn’t have a mandate for this worker protection now, or if it does, the article curiously failed to cite it.

I’m siding against the last 100 years of worker protections by questioning whether we need a law which doesn’t exist?

As an aside, that question wasn’t rhetorical. If you think we need those protections, say so, give a reason, and I very well might agree. My own argument for why it’s a possibility we don’t need it is it’s 2023 and this law still doesn’t exist.

Tough crowd.
( Last edited by subego; Jun 21, 2023 at 09:13 AM. )
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 21, 2023, 11:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Texas doesn’t have a mandate for this worker protection now, or if it does, the article curiously failed to cite it.
They don't have a mandated rest break or a water break? It's Texas, of course they're missing vital worker protections.

I’m siding against the last 100 years of worker protections by questioning whether we need a law which doesn’t exist?
The answer to "Do we really need the government to mandate [worker protection policy]" has ALWAYS been yes. Worker protection laws are written in blood.

As an aside, that question wasn’t rhetorical. If you think we need those protections, say so, give a reason, and I very well might agree. My own argument for why it’s a possibility we don’t need it is it’s 2023 and this law still doesn’t exist.
Here's the world where that law doesn't exist:

https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/a...d-accountable/

By the end of the day, Simmons, 30, would be dead, a victim of heatstroke. He is one of 53 workers who have succumbed to the brutal Texas heat since 2010, according to an investigation by Columbia Journalism Investigations, National Public Radio and The Texas Newsroom, a collaboration among Texas public radio stations and NPR.

An analysis of federal data on worker heat deaths shows the state's tally has nearly doubled in the last 10 years compared to the previous decade. Experts say the number of deaths reflected in the data almost certainly is an undercount.

The Texas casualties follow a national trend: Many of the fallen were workers of color, like Simmons, who was Black. Most Texas workers were employed in construction, trash collection, mining and fossil fuel extraction.
...
In meetings and documents, OSHA officials explained the dangers of heat to Hellas executives after Simmons died. In the three months following his death,11 Hellas employees were diagnosed with heat-related illnesses requiring medical attention, company records show. On July 19, 2019, another worker died.
In an industry, environment, and culture where laborers are seen as subhuman and easily replaceable, if there is no law in place, companies can, will, and do push workers to their death. The "personal responsibility" angle is tired and erases all of the leverage employers have over employees, especially when those employees are from marginalized communities.

Tough crowd.
You wanted to get yourself in trouble, I'm here to be the trouble.
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 21, 2023, 07:22 PM
 
There are definitely hot jobs where you are not allowed to bring water etc on the production floor/work site. Bikers wear camelbaks etc and have the water handy, or in races it's handed out in cups.

I should ask a family member who works in construction, in TX, what they think of this.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 22, 2023, 01:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
That 70 degrees is a different kettle than 100+ is exactly my point. I hydrated as I went at 70. That’s not what I do when it’s 100+?
I think you are building a false dichotomy here. At 100 degrees your margin of error becomes very small. Like I wrote above, really fit people who are accustomed to the Japanese summer heat can suffer from a heat stroke just by doing a very short, but intense race.

At 70 degrees it is far, far less likely that your dehydration becomes medically relevant, and it is more that you want to avoid being dehydrated for many days in a row.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I’m glad you mentioned cycling. Do cyclists in a competition take water breaks, or do they hydrate as they go?
The race was only short, up to 45 minutes. Mine was 30 minutes long. You bet that we spent as much as possible in the shade, drinking. I rode there and back (about 150 km in total), and especially on the way back my heart rate was way out of whack. Even though I rode at a very easy endurance pace, my heart rate was in the 150s (which is quite high). When I noticed, I stopped at a convenience store, bought ice cream and something cold to drink, sat in the shadow for 30 minutes and chilled. Even getting there (I headed out at 4:30 or 5 am, I think), it was clear this was going to be a hot day. I tried very hard to stay on top of my hydration, and I had to refill my bottles and hydration pack.

During races you drink, too, but it is a fight for attrition. Especially these very short, intense races, you hardly have time to drink. But planning your nutrition and hydration is part of racing and riding. These mandatory breaks sound very familiar to me: when you do endurance sports, nutrition and hydration is part of it. You need to become very disciplined, but most people are not very good at it. These mandatory breaks sound like a good solution to ensure everyone is safe.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If someone needs to put down 6 or 7 quarts of water to stay hydrated, isn’t the only way to safely do that is hydrate as one goes?
I think you are getting too hung up on the word “hydration breaks”: at these temperatures you need to take regular brakes not just to get hydrated. A race is a special situation where you push yourself. I'd compare working rather to training where you decidedly want to stay within the red lines and not cross them.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I don’t see the difference between dehydration, which is addressed by water, and exhaustion, which is addressed by rest, as semantic.
Except that many people eat and drink during breaks, no?
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 22, 2023, 02:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
They don't have a mandated rest break or a water break? It's Texas, of course they're missing vital worker protections.
I apologize… I phrased that in a way which was very unclear.

The Texas state legislature just signed into law a bill which nullifies certain county and municipal ordinances.

The article provides examples of two municipalities the authors claim the new law will affect: Dallas and Austin. The article links to a single Austin ordinance. This ordinance mandates a 10 minute break every four hours for workers engaged in construction. The word water is not contained in the ordinance.

So, if Texas has any worker protections in terms of mandating water breaks, the writers of this article couldn’t find one.

We’re talking literally hundreds of legislative bodies, and not a single one has taken it upon themselves to mandate a water break. Why should the totality of this be laid at the feet of the state legislature?
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 22, 2023, 02:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I think you are getting too hung up on the word “hydration breaks”:
The claim I am addressing is “local rules requiring water breaks for construction workers will soon be nullified”.

Is it not self-evident why I’m hung up on water breaks? It’s literally the topic.


Yes, people do indeed hydrate during rest breaks. If one needs to put down 6 quarts of water to stay hydrated over a 12 hour day, three 10 minute breaks (as provided for by the Austin ordinance) to drink it all will not suffice.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 22, 2023, 03:46 PM
 
It seems that "the media is being misleading" has you really fired up, but "human beings are losing their lives due to insufficient worker protections" doesn't bother you.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 22, 2023, 06:48 PM
 
Let’s say I’m guilty as charged.

How likely is it the two are connected? That whatever lack of sympathy I’m feeling for the human toll is on account of being misled?

I’m not defending this, but I can’t help but point out if I wasn’t misled, it wouldn’t have happened.

Maybe I’ve been granted the self-awareness not to let being misled erode my sympathies. Maybe one of the reasons I’m so furious about being misled is the fear others will fail where I was lucky enough to succeed.

Maybe I’m furious because those who are most likely to fail are exactly those who most need convincing.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 23, 2023, 07:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Let’s say I’m guilty as charged.

How likely is it the two are connected? That whatever lack of sympathy I’m feeling for the human toll is on account of being misled?
"Water breaks" and "rest breaks" are such a tiny semantic difference that even the briefest reminder of the bigger picture should be enough to pull anyone out of that hole.

I’m not defending this, but I can’t help but point out if I wasn’t misled, it wouldn’t have happened.
Sounds like a you problem.

Maybe I’ve been granted the self-awareness not to let being misled erode my sympathies.
Why is self awareness something that's granted, and not something that a person actively works toward? Calling it "granted" implies absolution of responsibility for giving a shit.

Maybe one of the reasons I’m so furious about being misled is the fear others will fail where I was lucky enough to succeed.

Maybe I’m furious because those who are most likely to fail are exactly those who most need convincing.
Then the system is working as designed.

Liberals are mad that worker rights are being violated and human lives are being lost.

Conservatives are mad at the "fake news" media ONCE AGAIN lying and attacking Republicans.

Everyone is mad and arguing past each other. The ruling class sits in their comfortable, climate-controlled offices, laughing and staying hydrated by sipping the blood of the proletariat, consulting their think tanks to decide what wedge issue they'll propose some legislation over for maximum divisiveness to keep the common people squabbling over a bunch of nothings so they don't have the time or capacity to fight back against real issues.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 23, 2023, 08:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
"Water breaks" and "rest breaks" are such a tiny semantic difference that even the briefest reminder of the bigger picture should be enough to pull anyone out of that hole.
This is perhaps where we are getting tangled.

As I understand it, in extreme heat, depriving someone of water is far, far more dangerous than depriving someone of rest.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 23, 2023, 08:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This is perhaps where we are getting tangled.
Then the plan is working as designed.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 23, 2023, 08:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Then the plan is working as designed.
Okay.

Now that’s been established, we can address my belief there is a very significant difference between depriving someone of water versus depriving them of rest.

Your personal experiences are the state of being water deprived and rest deprived are similar enough they are interchangeable?

To repeat, my experience is they are very different. To explicate, lack of water is far worse. I’d pick lack of rest over lack of water every single time.


Apologies in advance to anyone who dies because we were preoccupied with this tangent.
( Last edited by subego; Jun 23, 2023 at 09:34 AM. )
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 23, 2023, 10:19 AM
 
The Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 established the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) as a research agency focused on the study of worker safety and health, and empowering employers and workers to create safe and healthy workplaces.

NIOSH is part of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in the Department of Health and Human Services.
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/mining/Use...s/2017-127.pdf

It's just a two page infographic pdf so it's easy to read, but here's the important part:


By 100 degrees F, the recommendation for heavy labor is 30 minutes of work then 30 minutes of rest to stay safe from the effects of heat stress. Note that sun exposure and humidity move up where you are on the chart. Let's say you're doing roofing work on a partly cloudy day in Austin where 50% humidity is...like...the minimum. Those conditions add 13 degrees to the chart, so a "mild" 90 degree day is now 103 degrees on the chart, advising 20 minutes of work and a 40 minute rest.

If you want to know where these recommendations come from, you can check out the 192 page paper here:
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2016-...s/2016-106.pdf

Hydration is a given. What's maybe not so obvious is the body's generation and rejection of heat, which is dependant on exertion level and the work environment. The body of a perfectly hydrated person performing heavy labor in hot conditions simply cannot reject enough heat to avoid going into heat stress and heat stroke. The body needs a break from generating heat and the opportunity to enter an environment where heat is more readily rejected before resuming labor.

Drinking the recommended 8oz of water every 15 minutes adds up to 2 gallons over a day - how can you drink 2 gallons of cold water unless you're regularly allowed to come down off the roof and either drink or at least refill your portable canteen/camelbak?

Also note how completely and hilariously inadequate a 10 minute break every 4 hours is in the face of the data-based work/rest recommendations.
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 23, 2023, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This is perhaps where we are getting tangled.

As I understand it, in extreme heat, depriving someone of water is far, far more dangerous than depriving someone of rest.
Sometimes when people drink, they also need to pee. Sometimes people don't like saying "pee" so they say rest.

Or, rest could encompass anything you can do for 15 minutes that isn't working. Reading, closing your eyes, praying, calling your kids school because no one is in the office when you get off work... it doesn't matter because it's not work.

I read laminar's comment about the plan working as being Gov Abbot's plan working... confusing people and misrepresenting things is the R game plan, always.
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 23, 2023, 02:01 PM
 
Reporting a water break rather than a rest break. While technically incorrect, there is doubtless a high correlation between rest breaks and drinking water.

The misreporting doesn't bother me because it's mostly true. And could be an honest error. I've occasionally thought one thing, then written something different (but close). Can happen when I'm rushed and distracted. You could try sending a correction to the author, see if they fix it.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 23, 2023, 02:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
I read laminar's comment about the plan working as being Gov Abbot's plan working... confusing people and misrepresenting things is the R game plan, always.
And now we're into conspiracy theory territory, but I assume it's not Abbot's plan, it's the well-funded think tanks coming up with this stuff. They're paid very very well to come up with very effective, divisive rhetoric.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRlvHYrXUTg

Every time a republican official introduces or promotes legislation, I assume it's been delivered to them ready to go, with talking points already sent out to the news networks to drive the narrative in both directions.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 23, 2023, 09:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Yes, people do indeed hydrate during rest breaks. If one needs to put down 6 quarts of water to stay hydrated over a 12 hour day, three 10 minute breaks (as provided for by the Austin ordinance) to drink it all will not suffice.
What are you arguing for now? Are you arguing for more mandated breaks? But arguing that “3 x 10 minutes is insufficient, so why have any mandated breaks at all” is a non sequitur.

You wrote that you have to drink the entire time, and I agree. But you are assuming people have a choice and are free to do so, especially in sufficient quantity. Moreover, the consequences of dehydration/insufficient hydration are very different at 70–80 degrees Freedumb units to 100: at lower temps it is very unlikely you will pass out, but at higher temperatures that can actually happen. The load on your body just to cool itself is tremendous. (For example, that's why climbing in the heat is much more taxing than going fast on the flats, when climbing you go slower and evaporative cooling is a lot more inefficient.)

In many countries such as Spain you have a siesta for a reason. It isn't because Spanish are lazy and don't want to work, it is that they want to avoid working during the time of day when temperatures peak.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 23, 2023, 09:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Reporting a water break rather than a rest break. While technically incorrect, there is doubtless a high correlation between rest breaks and drinking water.
IMHO we should focus more on the substance than on wording. Sometimes such language is due to practical use, perhaps it became standard practice on construction sites to refer to a 30-minute break as a rest break and to a 10-minute break as a water break. This is just conjecture, but sometimes such things happen, and it is just a useful shorthand for those in the business.

Importantly, we should focus on the substance here, and there seems no reason why mandating additional breaks in hot temperatures should be done away with. “Ironically”, the local government party is mandating that municipalities, counties and the like cannot afford people working within their jurisdiction additional rights and protections.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 24, 2023, 01:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Also note how completely and hilariously inadequate a 10 minute break every 4 hours is in the face of the data-based work/rest recommendations.
Yet at the end of a 100° day, the vast majority of Austin construction crews go home alive.

Does this not imply they must be getting more rest than the ordinance mandates?

Nullification of the ordinance would change this how?
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 24, 2023, 08:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Yet at the end of a 100° day, the vast majority of Austin construction crews go home alive.

Does this not imply they must be getting more rest than the ordinance mandates?
"At the end of a pre-seatbelt day the vast majority of US automobile drivers went home alive."
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 24, 2023, 10:24 AM
 
Because the vast majority weren’t subjected to the danger condition: being in an accident.

On a 100° day, the danger condition is being in 100° heat. Every construction worker is being subjected to the danger condition, and still coming home alive.

The two are not analogous.



What would be analogous would be if in the pre-seatbelt law days, most people in accidents went home alive. Were this the case, we could infer most people were wearing their seatbelts, even though the law did not require it.

The Austin ordinance does not provide for enough rest on a 100° day, yet workers are getting enough rest, even though the law does not require it.
( Last edited by subego; Jun 24, 2023 at 10:51 AM. )
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 24, 2023, 01:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Because the vast majority weren’t subjected to the danger condition: being in an accident.
The dangerous situation is driving. It is inherently risky, and for a certain percentage of those exposed to it, it results in medical issues.

Come on, man.

You get me. Wilfully misinterpreting my point doesn't change the actual point.

Not everybody working in 100° heat is going to suffer a medical emergency, but enough people do to mandate that employers act accordingly.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 24, 2023, 02:02 PM
 
The ordinance in question, from the city of Austin, mandates a grand total of 30 minutes rest across a 12 hour period.

Everybody working construction for 12 hours in 100° heat who only gets 30 minutes of rest is going to end up with a medical emergency. As has been noted, this is a laughably inadequate amount of rest for those conditions.

Since the vast majority of construction crews in Austin are not suffering medical emergencies by the end of a 100° day, I conclude they are being allowed more rest than mandated by the ordinance. It is not the ordinance keeping them safe. In fact, hewing strictly to the ordinance would end up working many of them to death.



The accusation I am willfully misinterpreting you is untrue.
( Last edited by subego; Jun 24, 2023 at 03:20 PM. )
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 24, 2023, 06:49 PM
 
Got it. Makes sense. Apologies for misrepresenting YOU.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 24, 2023, 06:54 PM
 
No worries!
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 24, 2023, 07:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
there seems no reason why mandating additional breaks in hot temperatures should be done away with.
If additional breaks due to hot temperatures are indeed being done away with, the article failed to cite an example.

Is it too much to ask for an example to be provided before we castigate the Texas state legislature of doing away with it?
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 25, 2023, 03:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Reporting a water break rather than a rest break. While technically incorrect, there is doubtless a high correlation between rest breaks and drinking water.
If a water break is eliminated, doesn’t it by definition require water access to be compromised? If the break is eliminated and access to water remains essentially unchanged, on what grounds has it earned the qualifier of being a water break?

If faced with the option of being accused of “compromising access to water” or “eliminating a rest break”, I pick the one that sounds less like a human rights violation.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 26, 2023, 01:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Since the vast majority of construction crews in Austin are not suffering medical emergencies by the end of a 100° day, I conclude they are being allowed more rest than mandated by the ordinance. It is not the ordinance keeping them safe. In fact, hewing strictly to the ordinance would end up working many of them to death.
And since many of them are dying, can we conclude that some kind of gentleman's agreement where we trust that workers' lives are being valued is not enough?
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 26, 2023, 01:38 PM
 
Many people working on construction crews in Austin are dying?


Edit: I get the impression Texas has something around 100 workplace heat deaths per year. How many of these will be specifically Austin construction workers? Compare that to the total number of construction workers in Austin.
( Last edited by subego; Jun 26, 2023 at 01:55 PM. )
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 26, 2023, 01:42 PM
 
a postal worker just died in the heat but not sure if this rule applied to them.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 26, 2023, 01:50 PM
 
I want to say the USPS averages cooking 6 people a year.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 26, 2023, 01:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Many people working on construction crews in Austin are dying?
Refer to my previous link, especially the company that had a worker die, received specific coaching on avoiding heat-related injuries, then in the next year reported 11 more cases of heat stress and another death.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 26, 2023, 02:04 PM
 
I read the entire article.

I’m talking specifically about the Austin ordinance.

That only applied to construction workers in Austin, and as noted by you, is a laughably inadequate amount of rest for hot conditions.

How many Austin construction workers go home alive after a hot day? When one does go home alive, can we not infer they got the necessary amount of rest despite it not being mandated?
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 26, 2023, 02:12 PM
 
It's possible some bosses are allowing breaks without the guvmint telling them too, is that what you're working at?
For every boss that is reasonable there are 5 stories on /antiwork about the others who hold the bottom line.

I mean, we shouldn't need sick days either but...
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 26, 2023, 02:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
It's possible some bosses are allowing breaks without the guvmint telling them too, is that what you're working at?
I’m saying in Austin, it’s all of them.

The Austin ordinance mandates construction workers get a grand total of 30 minutes rest across a 12 hour day.

If construction supervisors in Austin were only allowing that much rest on 100° days, let alone less than that, the city would run out of Ambulances.



Edit: I want to add, I presume a lunch break is required, in addition to the 30 minutes.
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jun 26, 2023, 02:48 PM
 
I don't believe Texas should remove the local ordinance, unless they are passing a replacement. If the local ordinance is laughably inadequate to address the problem, then it's even more important to pass a better version.

Arguing that local bosses are all kind and mostly avoid killing their workers in the heat, is not a good reason to remove legal protections. While the employers will see it as burdens, for workers, it is part of their rights. Removing people's rights on the argument that they don't usually need them, is not a good reason.
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:15 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,