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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > iPhone, iPad & iPod > iPad 2: What it Should Be

iPad 2: What it Should Be
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freudling
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Nov 26, 2010, 10:53 PM
 
Please chime in and let me know what you think the iPad 2 should be.

Problems with iPad 1:

-Way too heavy
-Aluminum not good because it is too sensitive to ambient temperature
-Pixelated, washed out screen
-No front camera
-Too big bulky, hard to use it (e.g., portrait mode web browsing, reading books...)
-Screen too reflective
-A bit choppy at times
-Slow bluetooth
-Terrible mono speakers

The Samsung Galaxy Tab has solved most all of these problems.

iPad 2 should be:

-Bluetooth 3.0
-Stereo speakers
-512 MB RAM
-9" screen, as opposed to 9.7" (1024 x 768), with 1280 x 800 resolution
-5 MP front camera
-Plastic composite body
-Dimensions: 8.5" high x 6.5" wide down from about 9.5 by 7.5" (current)
-1 lb., down from 1.5 lbs.

These above specs will have solved most of the problems with the current iPad. The biggest decision to make on a tablet is screen size. Apple needs to cleave off the bulk from the current iPad so it's easier to hold, to compete with the Galaxy Tabs... The Tab is just so much easier to use because of the one handed hold and lightness. Not sure they could get it down to a dimension small enough that would allow one handed holding...

What I have proposed is to make the screen .7" smaller, but crank up the res that it will actually have more screen real estate, although text and images will be smaller because the pixels will be smaller. But lets be honest, I'm always pinching and zooming on the net with the current iPad anyway... And with a more sharp display, things will just look better even if they are a bit smaller on screen. The Tab has an amazing screen, even though it's a smaller screen, things look really good on it. You forget you're using something smaller... but because the pixel density is so high, the Tab can display almost as much on its screen compared to the iPad.

Don't think a rear facing camera is worth the hassle, but front facing would be good. Also, the aluminum should go, it's annoying holding a cold iPad, with sharp edges. They need polycarbonate with rounded edges. The current design is wanting. Tab feels way better in the hand.

With new material and a smaller screen, they should be able to cleave off at least the entire black frame worth of material, which would make it a size in between the current iPad and the Tab. This could help get them down to 1 lb., this, and using the new lighter touchscreens with a lighter battery chemistry.

I feel this is the sweet spot. And by increasing the screen resolution, the smaller iPad 2 will have more screen real estate than its bloated ancestor. I can see the marketing now: smaller, with 20% more screen!

If Apple doesn't make it lighter and smaller, they're going to have a hard time competing with the Galaxy Tabs, that have way better screens and are much nicer to use because they're not bulky.

Apple could also offer a 10" and a 7.5" or something. But they have to do something... Just my opinion.
     
imitchellg5
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Nov 26, 2010, 10:59 PM
 
I want a rear-facing camera. The Galaxy Tab has quite a decent rear camera; I'd much rather have that than front. 1.3 mp front, 5 mp back. And much better resolution. Those are really my only two requirements.
     
amazing
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Nov 27, 2010, 12:11 AM
 
Is it OK to say that the iPad should really have had front and rear cameras from the very beginning?
     
mduell
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Nov 27, 2010, 12:16 AM
 
Speed is the problem... it loses the magic when you're constantly waiting for it.
Dual core ARM
1GB RAM

200 dpi screen would be about 1600x1200. I doubt they'll change the screen size.

I'd welcome a reinforced plastic case.

Weight really needs to come down.

Originally Posted by amazing View Post
Is it OK to say that the iPad should really have had front and rear cameras from the very beginning?
Just a front one for video chat. I'm not so sure about yet another device with a shitty camera for taking photos.
     
amazing
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Nov 27, 2010, 12:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Speed is the problem... it loses the magic when you're constantly waiting for it.
Dual core ARM
1GB RAM

200 dpi screen would be about 1600x1200. I doubt they'll change the screen size.

I'd welcome a reinforced plastic case.

Weight really needs to come down.



Just a front one for video chat. I'm not so sure about yet another device with a shitty camera for taking photos.
And I do agree that weight is a problem.

And we don't need yet another device like the Touch with crippled cameras. So good stats on the cameras, front and rear, would be very welcome.

Is it just me or are another folks getting cynical about new Apple devices with obvious missing features that we can be sure will be introduced in the next revision? Because from Apple's success with the iPhone, I am absolutely sure that Apple knew from the very beginning that the iPad should have front and rear cameras. No question in anybody's mind that Apple knew, right? The iPad was begging for cameras from the very beginning, no way could Apple have missed that! After all, Apple is the company that minted the blueprint for success with the iPhone, they had the value of all the features pegged to a nicety.

Oh well, forgive the rant, that's just me being cynical about first revision Apple products, just me automatically looking for crippled or omitted features every time a new product comes out.
     
dbjork
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Nov 27, 2010, 01:21 AM
 
think weight is a major issue also, by reducing the size as you have proposed the weight will come down. Carbon fiber won't be lighter than plastic?
     
freudling  (op)
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Nov 27, 2010, 02:30 AM
 
Well I said polycarnoate composite, so it's open to other material. Carbon fiber might do the trick. There was some news this week about apple and a patent on carbon fiber. I guess the problem with it is that it degrades when heated faster than aluminum. Tab seems to be using carbon fiber and damn that thing is so light.

Of course every gram lost counts, but from what I know the screen and battery make up most of the iPad's weight. So going to 9" and cleaving the bulk will reduce the weight. So will using the new 25% lighter touchscreens. They could get close to 1 lb. with what I have proposed. Adding a camera won't add much weight at all

With a high res screen, camera, and light weight, the iPad will be like the iPod. Everyone will have one for media consumption. But they must get this weight down and add a high res screen. They will not be able to compete with the Galaxy Tabs if they don't.

It's funny how we can come up with this stuff on a forum but Apple with billions of dollars released this hunk of lead. They must, by now, after using it themselves be realizing it's too damn big and heavy with a comparitively crap screen to be fully useable.

With the iPhone 4 antennae debacle, the fierce control being elicited by Jobs, and his statements about 7" displays being DOA...amoung other things, it might be time to start thinking about replacing Steve.

Lots of things... And I ditched my iPhone 4 for Windows Phone 7. I don't see enough evolution with iOS... It won't see a major upgrade for another year. Multi tasking is a joke. Same lipstick tube OS it was in the beginning. Anyone who accuses Samsung of using blown out phone software should accuse Apple of the same thing. You're using the exact same thing the iPhone has. There's no difference, just a few in the box scaled up apps.

Which leads me to something I forgot: software improvements for the tablet, like true multi tasking and widgets. Apple's got very stiff competition from Samsung and coming up HP and WebOS. WebOS is dangerous because it is a really good OS that is perfect for a tablet because of how it multi tasks.

And Android Gingerbread is lurking. Right now Android is the better tablet OS because of widgets and better multi tasking.

I'm sorry but myself and colleagues all feel after testing the Galaxy Tab, going back to the iPad feels like a step back. I do like the iPad but it needs to now get a lot better to really grab marketshare in 2011.

So if Apple doesn't play their cards right in the next 4 months, iPad sales will tank with so much choice coming up. They'll get about 10-20% marketshare instead of the 65% they want and expect.
     
mduell
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Nov 27, 2010, 02:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by dbjork View Post
think weight is a major issue also, by reducing the size as you have proposed the weight will come down. Carbon fiber won't be lighter than plastic?
"Carbon fiber" is mostly plastic. A more apt name is "carbon fiber reinforced plastic" (CFRP). But they could also do glass reinforced plastic (GRP).
     
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Nov 27, 2010, 06:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by amazing View Post
Is it OK to say that the iPad should really have had front and rear cameras from the very beginning?
Sure it's okay to say that. But if the FaceTime software wasn't finished yet (which we don't know, but Jobs has hinted at), it was a better idea to leave it off.

As for rear-facing camera: is there really any imaginable use for one that doesn't make you look and feel like a complete dolt? One-handed use of the camera is also impossible.

Not saying it's not gonna happen, but I just don't get it.

Front-facing cam is a given, though.
     
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Nov 27, 2010, 08:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
With new material and a smaller screen, they should be able to cleave off at least the entire black frame worth of material, which would make it a size in between the current iPad and the Tab.
The black frame is there on purpose: it's to hold the device in your hand without accidentally activating the touch screen or obstructing the view of content.

Regarding cameras: the front-facing camera is a given, but the rear camera is just useless in my opinion. Unlike a phone which can actually double as an `always with you' camera, a tablet is way too big to be used to take pictures. The rear-facing camera is a `feature' that ordinary computer manufacturers would print proudly on the box.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Well I said polycarnoate composite, so it's open to other material. Carbon fiber might do the trick. There was some news this week about apple and a patent on carbon fiber. I guess the problem with it is that it degrades when heated faster than aluminum.
Probably the batteries are the heaviest component of the whole machine, adding a plastic enclosure would necessitate the addition of a frame to keep the innards in place. I'm not sure how big the reduction in weight would be, but comparing the weight of the MacBook vs. MacBook Pro, I don't think you're able to cut weight dramatically.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Tab seems to be using carbon fiber and damn that thing is so light.
A rough calculation: the iPad's volume is ~600 cm^3 and weighs 680 g. The Galaxy tab has a volume of roughly 276 cm^3 at a weight of 380 g. If you scale down the iPad to the volume of the Galaxy tab, you arrive at a weight of 312 g. I know that this calculation is just a very rough estimate, but IMO the difference in weight is mostly due to the difference in volume. And the majority of the volume is due to the screen and the batteries, I presume. If the iPad uses a smaller screen (say 9" instead of 9.7"), this could make the iPad ~15 % lighter.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
With a high res screen, camera, and light weight, the iPad will be like the iPod. Everyone will have one for media consumption. But they must get this weight down and add a high res screen.
I also hope they add higher-res screens. After using a retina display on my iPod touch, I don't want to go back
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
They will not be able to compete with the Galaxy Tabs if they don't.

It's funny how we can come up with this stuff on a forum but Apple with billions of dollars released this hunk of lead.
That's a bit hyperbolic given the iPad's sales figures, no?
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Anyone who accuses Samsung of using blown out phone software should accuse Apple of the same thing. You're using the exact same thing the iPhone has. There's no difference, just a few in the box scaled up apps.
Actually, you're wrong here: up until 4.2, the iOS for the iPhone and iOS for the iPad were separate OS versions. Now with 4.2, they seem to have merged again and I assume they are developed alongside.

iPad apps are not scaled up iPhone apps (you can scale up iPhone apps, but I'm talking about genuine iPad apps), the iPad is a separate development target meaning apps created for the iPad won't run on the iPhone. The iPad version fully takes into account the difference in size of the devices and developers aren't fudging with UI elements made for a phone.

Contrast that to current versions of Android which are, by Google's admission, not designed for tablet. Of course, even without tablets and 5" pseudo-phones, the Android ecosystem is very fragmented (a problem that is also addressed in Gingerbread), but still, currently, Android isn't designed for tablets. This is something that'll be solved in time, but until then, Android can't compete with the iOS ecosystem when it comes to the app store.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Apple's got very stiff competition from Samsung and coming up HP and WebOS. WebOS is dangerous because it is a really good OS that is perfect for a tablet because of how it multi tasks.
I was hoping WebOS would be more of a competition: they have a very good operating system and I don't have an explanation why it isn't a commercial success.
( Last edited by OreoCookie; Nov 27, 2010 at 08:27 AM. )
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chabig
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Nov 27, 2010, 09:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by amazing View Post
And we don't need yet another device like the Touch with crippled cameras.
The iPod Touch doesn't have crippled cameras. In fact the opposite is true, the iPod uses the cameras to their full capability.
     
chabig
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Nov 27, 2010, 09:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
And I ditched my iPhone 4 for Windows Phone 7. I don't see enough evolution with iOS... It won't see a major upgrade for another year. Multi tasking is a joke.
Thank you. I really got a good belly laugh from this statement. You ditched your iPhone 4 to step 3 years backwards, to an immature system with no multitasking, no apps, and no cut and paste? It's panned as Windows Phone '07 for a reason.

Originally Posted by freudling View Post
So if Apple doesn't play their cards right in the next 4 months, iPad sales will tank with so much choice coming up. They'll get about 10-20% marketshare instead of the 65% they want and expect.
Yes, vaporware can be really frightening! Too much choice can be bad. And Apple doesn't care about market share, by the way, and neither do the stockholders.
     
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Nov 27, 2010, 10:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I was hoping WebOS would be more of a competition: they have a very good operating system and I don't have an explanation why it isn't a commercial success.
For one, the flimsy-feeling hardware put many off. Compared to the iPhone (and everybody did), the Prés just felt cheap and plasticky.

For another (my major problem with the webOS devices), there was the whole how-do-I-sync-it debacle. iTunes! No, not iTunes - what do I do n…oh wait, iTunes! No, not iTunes - what do I…oh, look, they've gone and complained about Apple, so soon it'll be iTunes! Oh. They just got bitch-slapped by the USB consortium for using a FAKE VENDOR ID?
That whole thing looked to me like a couple of high school kids dreaming up a good idea and hacking it to work - at the expense of others.

Who the hell is going to consider doing business with complete idiots?

What DO you use to sync a Palm Pré? Is there some custom software, now? Some conduit?

I have no idea how aware the general public was of this juvenile asshattery, but to me it spelled the death of Palm as a business.
     
imitchellg5
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Nov 27, 2010, 11:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by chabig View Post
The iPod Touch doesn't have crippled cameras. In fact the opposite is true, the iPod uses the cameras to their full capability.
They're still awful.

The iPod touch has such a terrible rear camera because of space, the iPad currently has plenty of room for the iPhone 4's rear camera. Of course, I'm assuming Apple won't try and make the iPad 2 ridiculously thin like they are set on doing with every product they make.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Nov 27, 2010, 11:54 AM
 
Underspecced or crippled, potayto potahto.

Either way, a rear camera would be awesome stupid
     
freudling  (op)
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Nov 27, 2010, 12:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The black frame is there on purpose: it's to hold the device in your hand without accidentally activating the touch screen or obstructing the view of content.
You didn't understand what I was saying. All I said was that they could reduce the screen size enough to cut away approximately the black frame worth of material. They still have to put a frame on there. But it can be smaller, more like the Tab's frame, because it can be held more in a pinch fashion like the Tab... which negates the need for such a large frame. The way the iPad is now, it's so bulky that it needs a big frame so people can hang onto it.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Probably the batteries are the heaviest component of the whole machine, adding a plastic enclosure would necessitate the addition of a frame to keep the innards in place. I'm not sure how big the reduction in weight would be, but comparing the weight of the MacBook vs. MacBook Pro, I don't think you're able to cut weight dramatically.
Glass weighs the most, then the batteries.

Aluminum back 138 grams
Battery 148 grams
LCD 153 grams
Glass (and frame) 193 grams
Speaker: 17 grams
Main board: 21 grams
Everything else: 27 grams

Oh ya, there are now new lighter LCDs from sources too, in addition to lighter touchscreens. By making the iPad smaller, using carbon fiber for the case, using the new touchscreens, and making the battery chemistry a bit smaller, they could get close to 1 lb. And with a high res screen, they will actually gain screen real estate.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
That's a bit hyperbolic given the iPad's sales figures, no?
With all the competing choice coming up, I really don't think so.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Actually, you're wrong here: up until 4.2, the iOS for the iPhone and iOS for the iPad were separate OS versions. Now with 4.2, they seem to have merged again and I assume they are developed alongside.

iPad apps are not scaled up iPhone apps (you can scale up iPhone apps, but I'm talking about genuine iPad apps), the iPad is a separate development target meaning apps created for the iPad won't run on the iPhone. The iPad version fully takes into account the difference in size of the devices and developers aren't fudging with UI elements made for a phone.
My point is that they look and function exactly the same. There is no 'different' iOS for the iPad. They are one and the same thing, aside from a difference in resolution. And the Tab has icons scaled up for its resolution, along with a load of custom apps and widgets out of the box, just like the iPad. Calendar, Email, web browser, settings pane...

Before the iPad was released, people were wondering what OS it was going to have. Something different? Turns out it has the same OS as the iPhone/iPod. It's the reason people call it a giant iPod Touch. I personally wouldn't go that far in calling it that, but sometimes I feel like it is.

Think about this. Imagine if at least Apple shipped it with Dashboard... now that would be one small step in the direction of adding functionality and differentiating it from the iPhone/iPod. But they didn't do anything of the sort.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Contrast that to current versions of Android which are, by Google's admission, not designed for tablet. Of course, even without tablets and 5" pseudo-phones, the Android ecosystem is very fragmented (a problem that is also addressed in Gingerbread), but still, currently, Android isn't designed for tablets. This is something that'll be solved in time, but until then, Android can't compete with the iOS ecosystem when it comes to the app store.
If ever there was someone swallowing up the media and Jobs's koolaid...

Android is an outright success. They are the number 2 smartphone OS in the world under Nokia. Period. You can keep quoting Jobs and the media, but it doesn't erase this fact. Android is good, with loads of good apps, and it's here to stay.

And you keep clinging to "it wasn't designed for a tablet". It must be clear to you now after all this discussion and market success the Tab has enjoyed (over 700,000 sold in first month), that that statement is just a smokescreen. Out of the box the Tab comes literally DOZENS of custom apps, from eBook Readers to a calendar to a file system and an office suite, and more.

It looks, feels and functioms like a complete tablet system. If I was forced to say that either the iPad or the Tab was using blown out phone software, I would say that about the iPad first.

The fact that there are few apps available for tablets right now on the Android app marketplace is just because they are so new. Side by side out of the box, the Tab has way more software on it than the iPad. In fact, there's so much there I haven't had to download 1 app from the app marketplace. Not so with the iPad. You'll have to go to the app store to grab a calculator, weather app, office suite, etc.

The Tab is selling, I've been conferencing with people all over about it and everyone I have talked to likes it and wants to get it. We have had to make a decision to develop for it so that is why I have been analyzing it so intensely. The media, etc. is just noise. The Tab is, in my opinion and many other's I have talked to over the past few weeks, one the best tech gadgets ever. Don't get me wrong, I like the iPad. But it's very flawed and needs fixing. It's also destined for greatness if Apple solves the problems with it.
( Last edited by freudling; Nov 27, 2010 at 12:26 PM. )
     
chabig
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Nov 27, 2010, 12:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Android is an outright success. They are the number 2 smartphone OS in the world under Nokia. Period. You can keep quoting Jobs and the media, but it doesn't erase this fact. Android is good, with loads of good apps, and it's here to stay.
Android may be a success--at what I'm not sure. But they aren't number two behind Nokia. Apple is number one in profitability and everyone else is way behind. It's fine that Android is "here to stay". Apple will have no problem making money from iPod, iPhone, and iPad sales.
     
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Nov 27, 2010, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
My point is that they look and function exactly the same. There is no 'different' iOS for the iPad. They are one and the same thing, aside from a difference in resolution.
Have you ever even held an iPad? They function similarly, but the layout and and application design is *completely* different. the basic interface elements are the same, but that's it.

Check out the calendar app or Mail, or even just the Settings app.

Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Android is an outright success. They are the number 2 smartphone OS in the world under Nokia. Period.
You're right, but you fail to realize that Android isn't one platform, but dozens. That's exactly the problem. The Tab makes no sense at all until the whole interface of system and third-party apps is redesigned specifically for it, the way EVERYTHING has been redesigned for iPad.
     
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Nov 27, 2010, 09:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
The way the iPad is now, it's so bulky that it needs a big frame so people can hang onto it.
No, you need a frame no matter the size to avoid spurious input and fingerprints on your screen.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
With all the competing choice coming up, I really don't think so.
Right now, iPad sales are very strong. And Android is pushing Apple very hard in the phone space, but I don't see that happen in the tablet space -- yet.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
My point is that they look and function exactly the same. There is no 'different' iOS for the iPad. They are one and the same thing, aside from a difference in resolution.
It's not about what the UI elements look like, but what typical applications look like. Yes, they work the same because they're both touch-based UIs and they look alike because they're from the same company. So it's not about whether the OS is `the same,' but what applications are like. And the differentiating factor is not resolution, but screen size (the iPod touch's/iPhone 4's resolution comes close to that of the iPad, the screen size is vastly different). If you talk to people who develop for the iPhone and iPad, you'll understand that what you do with these devices is just so very different.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Android is an outright success. They are the number 2 smartphone OS in the world under Nokia. Period. You can keep quoting Jobs and the media, but it doesn't erase this fact. Android is good, with loads of good apps, and it's here to stay.
Nobody suggested Android is going away soon. But you make it sound as if Apple is getting into serious trouble (`Antennagate' and whatnot). Fact of the matter is that both in the phone space and the tablet market, they're doing very, very well. They're making a lot of money and when they release a new product, they often find it hard to satisfy demand. I think many companies would like to have Apple's problems.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
And you keep clinging to "it wasn't designed for a tablet". It must be clear to you now after all this discussion and market success the Tab has enjoyed (over 700,000 sold in first month), that that statement is just a smokescreen. Out of the box the Tab comes literally DOZENS of custom apps, from eBook Readers to a calendar to a file system and an office suite, and more.
Dozens of apps is not very impressive if the iPad has tens of thousands of apps (not all of them interesting, of course). I'm mentioning to the balkanization of Android time and again, because it is the most significant shortcoming Android has. You cannot download apps for one Android device and expect it to work on others (what do you do with the apps you've purchased for your old phone, will they work on your new one?). Manufacturers often do not upgrade their devices to the latest version of Android (this is the strongest reason against an Android smartphone for me). From this perspective, a tablet is perhaps `yet another form factor.' But it prevents Google from building a similar ecosystem. The app store is in my opinion the biggest advantage Apple has over its competitors.

Microsoft has learnt from Google's mistake and fixed almost all of the specs for Windows Phone 7 phones. You can tell that it makes a difference by looking at some software titles, e. g. games: in its rather short life span, developers have released games such as Star Wars: the Battle for Hoth and Need for Speed: Undercover. That's about one month after the release. These titles are not available for Android. For this reason, I think Microsoft has a realistic shot at gaining a foothold in the smartphone market.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
The fact that there are few apps available for tablets right now on the Android app marketplace is just because they are so new.
No, it's because you have to develop basically for specific Android devices.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Side by side out of the box, the Tab has way more software on it than the iPad. In fact, there's so much there I haven't had to download 1 app from the app marketplace. Not so with the iPad. You'll have to go to the app store to grab a calculator, weather app, office suite, etc.
Since most of this stuff is free, I don't see this as a disadvantage, quite the contrary, people get to discover the app store. You can choose amongst many (free) calculators and pick the one you like. Samsung doesn't have that luxury.
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Nov 27, 2010, 10:57 PM
 
1. More speed

2. Make the smallest hard drive 32 Gb.

3. USB connector. I want to connect a folding keyboard.

4. Flat back, so it doesn't wobble

5. Agree about two cameras, one front, but the one making it a camera would be more important to me.

6. Less frame, more screen

Generally, the iPad 1 has an amazing screen, which is why photographers love it. I hope the next screen will not lose that sensual quality images get on the iPad.

7. If it could drop weight, it would be nice.
     
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Nov 27, 2010, 11:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Have you ever even held an iPad? They function similarly, but the layout and and application design is *completely* different. the basic interface elements are the same, but that's it.

Check out the calendar app or Mail, or even just the Settings app.
Not only have I held iPads, I have dissected them, analyzed them, formed business strategies around them, etc. If you actually think that any reasonable person is going to swallow what you're saying you're mistaken. Everything you have just said is exactly what can be said about Android on a Tab. That's a fact.

There is NO difference between the iOS on the iPhone and the iOS on the iPad. I don't care if a calendar app is designed for the iPad screen. The entire operating system is exactly the same. The layout of the icons. The search pane. The settings pane. Folders...

OS X and iOS? Now those 2 are different. Windows Phone 7 and iOS? Different. WebOS and iOS? Different.

There are so many people calling the iPad a toy, a large iPod Touch for precisely this reason. Because it's operating system is indistinguishable from the iPhones. It doesn't matter if there are apps for the iPad that are designed for its screen. The operating system is exactly the same as what is on the iPhone. And with the Tab, Android is running with apps specifically designed for the Tab screen, just like apps that are designed specifically for the iPad screen.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
You're right, but you fail to realize that Android isn't one platform, but dozens. That's exactly the problem. The Tab makes no sense at all until the whole interface of system and third-party apps is redesigned specifically for it, the way EVERYTHING has been redesigned for iPad.
This is complete BS. The Samsung Galaxy Tab has so much software on it out of the box, you don't even need to download 1 app. Additionally, what you are saying, along with a few other people, is complete hyperbole. There are apps coming for 7" screens. Whether you want to believe it or not. Whether you like it or not. The tablet market is heading down a 7" road. HP, RIM, Creative... all 7 inchers.

You are actually just recycling what the media and Jobs is saying. You are creating a problem that isn't really there at all. There is no problem at all with Android on a 7" screen. None. People like the Tab. In fact, if you search for Samsung Galaxy Tab reviews right now on the net, almost all of them are absolutely glowing. And the most recent ones are glowing. People like the Tab. They have over 700,000 units in sales in the first month, with a 4.5 star average rating on Amazon thus far.

I have personally spearheaded a survey about the Tab and iPad, talking to people both in the general public and those more tech savvy users (e.g., employees at cell phone kiosks). I've deployed user testing in our office of both the iPad and the Samsung Galaxy Tab. I've got people to use both for hours, and on different occasions. Every single person in this group has preferred the Tab over the iPad, citing a much better screen and much easier to hold and use.

I'm not generalizing from this study, and I'm not saying there isn't a place in the market for both the iPad and the Tab, but it's just ignorant and irresponsible to recycle what the media says about something. And that's what you're doing.

Android is simply a success, but so is iOS. They both have their faults. But faults don't mean they are untenable, it just means they aren't perfect.
     
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Nov 28, 2010, 12:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
No, you need a frame no matter the size to avoid spurious input and fingerprints on your screen.
You're still not understanding what I have written. I never said to eliminate the frame. You still need a frame, yes. That frame can be smaller when the dimensions become smaller because it's not so hard to hold. Because of the bulk and heft of the iPad, it needs a large frame for two handed holding, like holding a book.

Interesting tidbit. With the Tab, when we did the user testing, we found that all of us weren't even holding the frame at all. We were holding it with one hand, and our fingers were pinching the sides. This was a totally different thing compared to holding the iPad, which requires a two handed hold in a different fashion.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
It's not about what the UI elements look like, but what typical applications look like. Yes, they work the same because they're both touch-based UIs and they look alike because they're from the same company. So it's not about whether the OS is `the same,' but what applications are like. And the differentiating factor is not resolution, but screen size (the iPod touch's/iPhone 4's resolution comes close to that of the iPad, the screen size is vastly different). If you talk to people who develop for the iPhone and iPad, you'll understand that what you do with these devices is just so very different.
We develop for the iPad and iPhone, so I understand that they are different. The mistake you make is lumping a screen that is diagonally 7" with one that is half that. A user review from Amazon sums this up nicely:

3. It is obvious that the iPad has a less than comfortable form factor. The majority of people would agree that you can't hold onto the iPad the whole day without getting tired. Also, the larger screen of the ipad leads to less pixel density, thus worse picture.

Now, by your admission, it doesn't matter about the operating system, but the programs are important. So let's finally set aside criticism that Android is just a smartphone OS on a tablet.

Now, here's the deal with the apps. There are dozens of custom designed tablet apps on the Tab out of the box. 23. Calendar, email, messaging, web browser, contacts, memo, music app and marketplace, YouTube, eBook Store (newspaper, magazines, and books), eBook Reader (page flips, bookmarks, etc.), movie and tv store, FaceBook, Amazon, Qik, many more.

Apps are now showing up on the marketplace. Some cool games now available: Need for Speed, Nova and Ashphalt 5.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Nobody suggested Android is going away soon. But you make it sound as if Apple is getting into serious trouble (`Antennagate' and whatnot). Fact of the matter is that both in the phone space and the tablet market, they're doing very, very well. They're making a lot of money and when they release a new product, they often find it hard to satisfy demand. I think many companies would like to have Apple's problems.
I really do think Apple is in trouble just from a marketshare stand-point, and one of the reasons is because there's really good mobile OSes now on the market, more coming. And specifically about tablets, the iPad is fatally flawed. It's too big and heavy, with the wrong material. Who do you think is going to keep buying the iPad? Especially when people now have a choice... there's lighter, smaller, and brighter tablet iterations on the market now.

So this is my prediction after careful analysis and user testing. I think the iPad will lose a ton of sales in 2011, and the Tabs will be soaking it up. I don't think many people will buy the iPad because it's too heavy and bulky. I also think the OS is too much like what is on their iPhone and iPod Touch. Dashboard on the iPad would be a step out of this, to give it more power and features, and differentiate it more. So they can help it lose the image of being a "giant iPod Touch".

Now, Apple not caring about marketshare is cool with me. But something tells me they are at least interested in marketshare...

I could be wrong, but this is how I see the market now.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Dozens of apps is not very impressive if the iPad has tens of thousands of apps (not all of them interesting, of course). I'm mentioning to the balkanization of Android time and again, because it is the most significant shortcoming Android has. You cannot download apps for one Android device and expect it to work on others (what do you do with the apps you've purchased for your old phone, will they work on your new one?). Manufacturers often do not upgrade their devices to the latest version of Android (this is the strongest reason against an Android smartphone for me). From this perspective, a tablet is perhaps `yet another form factor.' But it prevents Google from building a similar ecosystem. The app store is in my opinion the biggest advantage Apple has over its competitors.
No doubt Apple's App Store is bigger and, in some ways, better than Android's. But what you are doing is engaging in hyperbole. First, there are now over 140,000 apps available on Android's marketplace, and it's gaining about 20,000 new apps per month. Because of the success thus far in relation to the Galaxy Tab, and now seeing apps roll in for it, your argument loses ground.

All things being equal, in the next 3 months, there will be many apps available for devices like the 7" Tab.

But aside from that, if you look at what people actually do on a tablet, it's pretty constrained. They read, surf the web, watch movies, do a bit of email, and game.

The reality is that inching upwards to 1 million people don't care about the fact that there are much less apps initially available for the Tab compared to the iPad. The market is responding, and they are liking the Tab. This will push app development for it.

But you know what? We're all loving our tabs. It's got more software out of the box than my iPad ever had after months of use.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Microsoft has learnt from Google's mistake and fixed almost all of the specs for Windows Phone 7 phones. You can tell that it makes a difference by looking at some software titles, e. g. games: in its rather short life span, developers have released games such as Star Wars: the Battle for Hoth and Need for Speed: Undercover. That's about one month after the release. These titles are not available for Android. For this reason, I think Microsoft has a realistic shot at gaining a foothold in the smartphone market.
I agree.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
No, it's because you have to develop basically for specific Android devices.

Since most of this stuff is free, I don't see this as a disadvantage, quite the contrary, people get to discover the app store. You can choose amongst many (free) calculators and pick the one you like. Samsung doesn't have that luxury.
BS. Just wait and see and what happens. If the market ends up rejecting the Tab, then fine. But right now, people are loving it, whether you think its app store is weak or not, makes no difference. The market is responding to it and buying it.

Some randomly selected user reviews:

Blown Away

"I have tried the iPad, the Nook and the Kindle 3...this blows them all away. Do yourself a favor, get one, and start watching your movie library, surf the net and read some books from both Amazon and Barnes & Noble etc... Awesome device..."

Game Changer- WOW- Best Electronic Device I Ever Owned,

"I purchased my first, on the first day it was available for sale at T-Mobile...WOW...I then bought 3 more (4 days later)one for wife and two kids...Its a Game Changer...best electronic device I have ever owned...It is absolutely amazing...Fast and limitless applications...My kids are 16 and believe they should have it to compete in the world...I CANT SAY ENOUGH GOOD ABOUT IT! Gorgeous screen and easy to use... "

better than ipad

"i have both an ipad and the galaxy. And the galaxy is way better. No website restrictions like on ipad, so i can get on websites that run flash like fancast and youtube. (on the ipad you need an app to watch videos on youtube, and they have to be videos that were made to be seen on the apple, which means many aren't apple ready). The keyboard is a lot fater to use. Out of the box it comes with some great apps. I dont have to link to itunes to transfer files. On the galaxy I can download files from email and open them just like a pc, unlike apple where i would need a special app and link to itunes to see files. its more portable than the ipad. I got it unlocked and i can use my phones sim card on it... overall a better product than the ipad and without the apple restrictions."

Let me Google the current reviews for you (95% of the current reviews from 46 sampled are positive... go to news):

Let me google that for you
( Last edited by freudling; Nov 28, 2010 at 12:24 AM. )
     
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Nov 28, 2010, 12:54 AM
 
The iPad has a terrible screen? Wow. I'd say you'd have to be very demanding to find much fault with it. Most of your other claims are without much substance.

Valid Apple criticism is great, but I'm wondering: Has freudling always been this much of a troll?

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Nov 28, 2010, 01:33 AM
 
How is freudling's criticism invalid, let along trolling?

I repeat: some people on this forum have a *really* *really* bizarre definition of trolling.
     
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Nov 28, 2010, 04:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
pple restrictions."

Let me Google the current reviews for you (95% of the current reviews from 46 sampled are positive... go to news):

Let me google that for you
Weird. My results were exactly the opposite using the link you provided.

1st link on Google: Samsung Galaxy Tab Review: A Pocketable Train Wreck
2nd link on Google: We can't hide our disappointment in the Galaxy tab.
3rd link on Google: Samsung Galaxy Tab still has several chapters to go.
4th link on Google: Don't call it an iPad competitor.

Reading further I've found that reviews of the Galaxy tablet seem extremely polarized. However, I've found more negative reviews just from the first 10 Google links than I do positive reviews. A few try to differentiate the products and not compare them at all.

If I were to average them out, it seems to me that the Galaxy tablet is somewhere between the TechRadar and Engadget review. Samsung is pushing out an unfinished product. It has a lot of potential, but in its current state does not compare favorably to the iPad. Fans are betting on hope and future possibilities rather than practical features. Most of the arguments in support of Android tablets appear to revolve around "will eventually...," "possibly...," or "in the future..."
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Nov 28, 2010, 05:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
The iPad has a terrible screen? Wow. I'd say you'd have to be very demanding to find much fault with it. Most of your other claims are without much substance.

Valid Apple criticism is great, but I'm wondering: Has freudling always been this much of a troll?
Yes.

I'd forgotten why I'd had him on ignore for ages.
     
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Nov 28, 2010, 06:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Yes.

I'd forgotten why I'd had him on ignore for ages.
When all else fails, make personal attacks. We're having a debate/discussion on a very important computing topic. I post data. I post well constructed critiques. Now, because it does not conform to your reality... make personal attacks.
     
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Nov 28, 2010, 06:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Weird. My results were exactly the opposite using the link you provided.

1st link on Google: Samsung Galaxy Tab Review: A Pocketable Train Wreck
2nd link on Google: We can't hide our disappointment in the Galaxy tab.
3rd link on Google: Samsung Galaxy Tab still has several chapters to go.
4th link on Google: Don't call it an iPad competitor.

Reading further I've found that reviews of the Galaxy tablet seem extremely polarized. However, I've found more negative reviews just from the first 10 Google links than I do positive reviews. A few try to differentiate the products and not compare them at all.

If I were to average them out, it seems to me that the Galaxy tablet is somewhere between the TechRadar and Engadget review. Samsung is pushing out an unfinished product. It has a lot of potential, but in its current state does not compare favorably to the iPad. Fans are betting on hope and future possibilities rather than practical features. Most of the arguments in support of Android tablets appear to revolve around "will eventually...," "possibly...," or "in the future..."
Click on news after, as I mentioned. Look at new reviews, especially by users.

Bottom line: 4.5 star average rating on Amazon so far. Lots of positive reviews, and it's selling.
     
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Nov 28, 2010, 07:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
When all else fails, make personal attacks. We're having a debate/discussion on a very important computing topic. I post data. I post well constructed critiques. Now, because it does not conform to your reality... make personal attacks.

If it's any consolation, you aren't the only one that has run into these sorts of topics becoming seemingly extremely personal and needlessly confrontational.

Some refer to this as passion, I refer to it as pointless dogma.
     
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Nov 28, 2010, 07:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
We develop for the iPad and iPhone, so I understand that they are different. The mistake you make is lumping a screen that is diagonally 7" with one that is half that.
No, I don't lump Android phones and Android tablets together as devices. I'm saying the OS is not optimized for tablet apps. Google does not recommend current versions of Android for anything other than smart phones right now.

Again, this is something that will change, but the lackluster support prevents an ecosystem around the Galaxy Tab. Right now, Android tablets are just `me too devices' with no proper platform to support them.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Now, by your admission, it doesn't matter about the operating system, but the programs are important. So let's finally set aside criticism that Android is just a smartphone OS on a tablet.
No, I didn't claim programs are important, but development platforms on which programs are built. If you don't have that, you can jury rig apps, but you can't create an ecosystem that works across different devices and generations of devices. This point is crucial.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Now, here's the deal with the apps. There are dozens of custom designed tablet apps on the Tab out of the box. 23. Calendar, email, messaging, web browser, contacts, memo, music app and marketplace, YouTube, eBook Store (newspaper, magazines, and books), eBook Reader (page flips, bookmarks, etc.), movie and tv store, FaceBook, Amazon, Qik, many more.
So how's that `better' than having access to all of those and more?
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
I really do think Apple is in trouble just from a marketshare stand-point, and one of the reasons is because there's really good mobile OSes now on the market, more coming. And specifically about tablets, the iPad is fatally flawed. It's too big and heavy, with the wrong material. Who do you think is going to keep buying the iPad? Especially when people now have a choice... there's lighter, smaller, and brighter tablet iterations on the market now.
I think plenty of people will buy 10" tablets actually. If you think of it from a developer's point of view, it really is a canvas that is large enough for companies to create new types of software. Productivity software. If it is one app I'd like the iPad for, it's OmniFocus for the iPad. Just looking at it, it's immediately clear it's better than OmniFocus on my Mac and on my iPod touch.

Sure, the iPad is heavy right now and it's expensive. But that's something that'll change. Apple had to decide what screen size they choose to allow developers to create great apps that you don't find in that form on neither a desktop nor a smartphone. Lots of young, small software companies are coming to the iOS platform because of the ease of the app store and the opportunities they see.

This momentum will eventually reach other tablets, but I don't see any other device that's causing a stir like this. In the end, this is about software and you keep on talking about hardware.

Apple has stuck to 10" because they want a device that is a class of its own. Quite a few reviews (e. g. engadget) conclude that going for a 7" puts the device in a state of limbo, e. g. techradar writes:
Originally Posted by techradar
We like the Galaxy Tab, we really do. But the fact is that Samsung has launched a device with a massive identity problem.

Is it a phone? No - it makes phone calls, sure, but it's too big to use as a primary mobile phone.

Is it a tablet? Again, no we don't think it is one. It's too small and fiddly and lacking in optimisations. Tablets need to distinguish themselves from smartphones by being bigger, better, more powerful, feature rich and interesting.

Essentially, they need a reason to exist. And this is where we're struggling with the Galaxy Tab.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
So this is my prediction after careful analysis and user testing. I think the iPad will lose a ton of sales in 2011, and the Tabs will be soaking it up.
I find it very surprising you don't even factor it what's in store for the Android platform. Google has yet to come up with a clear strategy for developers to target tablets as a development platform. They seek to overcome the problem of fragmentation and establish a clear platform for tablet development with Honeycomb (Android 3.2). According to what I've read, Gingerbread (Android 3.0) is due for spring next year (~April 2011). Up until then, I don't think one can make predictions.

In any case, Apple has a big head start in terms of software -- not just the OS, but also third-party developers.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
No doubt Apple's App Store is bigger and, in some ways, better than Android's. But what you are doing is engaging in hyperbole. First, there are now over 140,000 apps available on Android's marketplace, and it's gaining about 20,000 new apps per month.
… but the important point is that those 140,000 apps will not run on all Android devices it for many different reasons: be it that my manufacturer still hasn't upgraded to the latest version of Android (the Dell Streak uses Android 1.6!), that my Android device isn't among the list of supported devices or that my carrier/manufacturer allows me to install this type of app as they insist I use a custom skin. That's why software companies often bundle their apps with one specific device instead of releasing it on the market: they don't want to/can't test against all possible devices.

This is a huge hurdle for software developers, especially small and creative ones, because their target market is smaller and more complicated.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Because of the success thus far in relation to the Galaxy Tab, and now seeing apps roll in for it, your argument loses ground.

All things being equal, in the next 3 months, there will be many apps available for devices like the 7" Tab.
There is no the 7" Tab, there are many 7" tablets. As long as there is no
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
But aside from that, if you look at what people actually do on a tablet, it's pretty constrained. They read, surf the web, watch movies, do a bit of email, and game.
I don't think that's true, developers are testing many ideas what they can do with tablets. Friends of mine have just released DJay for the iPad. OmniGroup has bet the future of its company on the iPad by effectively halting development of all desktop software and releasing all of their major apps on the iPad. The iPad version of OmniFocus looks really good -- better than both the desktop and iPhone version.

Developers are coming up with apps that work best on a tablet -- better than on a smartphone or a desktop. It'll take a few years until we can see whether that's good enough for the majority of users, but I don't think tablets will remain a `surf + e-mail + movie machine.'
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
BS. Just wait and see and what happens. If the market ends up rejecting the Tab, then fine. But right now, people are loving it, whether you think its app store is weak or not, makes no difference. The market is responding to it and buying it.
I think there is a market for devices of this size. But I don't think these devices are big enough to offer new classes of apps beyond of what you can get on smartphones.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Some randomly selected user reviews:
The reviews I've read so far are either cautious and reserved or dismissive -- be it regular newspapers or tech sites. E. g. from Süddeutsche Zeitung (I took the liberty to translate):
Originally Posted by Süddeutsche Zeitung
Samsung wants 800 € for the device. That's a lot of money -- too much money. The distributors will sell it for less,* but it's still not worth it. However, photos of Samsung products have surfaced online with which the marketing pros want to entice the customers next year: the Tab will get a larger screen and also a new display technology called AMOLED. It will be brighter, thinner and more energy efficient.

Who really wants one should wait.
* You can get it for ~€650 in Germany which is €150 more than the entry-level iPad.

Have a look at The Register's review:
Originally Posted by El Reg
The Tab may not quite match the iPad for luxurious ease of use or build quality, but shop around and you'll soon find it for £40 less than Apple's cheapest 3G version. However, it is more expensive than the entry level Wi-Fi-only iPad. Even so, the smaller Galaxy Tab has the capability to function as a phone and a camera, which will no doubt appeal to many. Flash on the browser will also have its fans, as will the add-on memory and the e-book reader functions that work just as well as its rival. Overall, the Galaxy Tab shows potential as an iPad challenger. With an eye on the forthcoming Gingerbread and Honeycomb upgrades, Android enthusiasts are likely to forgive its quirks, as this fondle slab ticks an awful lot of boxes.
They're saying it has `potential as an iPad challenger' and not that the Tab blows the iPad out of the water. Most upgrades point towards the future -- either future software (Gingerbread, Honeycomb) or future hardware.
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
This is complete BS. The Samsung Galaxy Tab has so much software on it out of the box, you don't even need to download 1 app. Additionally, what you are saying, along with a few other people, is complete hyperbole. There are apps coming for 7" screens. Whether you want to believe it or not. Whether you like it or not. The tablet market is heading down a 7" road. HP, RIM, Creative... all 7 inchers.
… but you won't be able to use WebOS or RIM tablet apps on Android tablets and vice versa. They live in different eco systems.
( Last edited by OreoCookie; Nov 28, 2010 at 08:02 AM. )
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Nov 28, 2010, 09:57 AM
 
A piece by The Register on Windows Phone 7 vs. Android compares the different approaches of the two software giants with regards to smart phone operating systems. It isn't centered around iOS and tablets, but it nevertheless raises many issues (most notably fragmentation) that are also relevant for tablets.
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Nov 28, 2010, 10:16 AM
 
What it SHOULDN'T be:

Named after feminine products that are used to dam the vaginal tract. Seriously, I love my iPad, but whenever I utter the word, I can't help but think the thing's going to have its period. On me. Come on Jobs, we've given you enough hooker money, change the name to something respectable.
     
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Nov 28, 2010, 10:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post

There is NO difference between the iOS on the iPhone and the iOS on the iPad. I don't care if a calendar app is designed for the iPad screen. The entire operating system is exactly the same. The layout of the icons. The search pane. The settings pane. Folders...
.
AHHHHH HAHAHAHAAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHHAAAHAHAHAAAAAHHHHHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAH

AHAHAHAHAHAHHHHAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Sorry....let me catch my breath...

HAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

Alright, I'm done. Stupid noobs.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Nov 28, 2010, 10:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by BionicDissonance View Post
Stupid noobs.
With all due respect:

Who's the newb here?
     
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Nov 28, 2010, 11:17 AM
 
Was hat Rob ?

-t
     
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Nov 28, 2010, 02:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
No, I don't lump Android phones and Android tablets together as devices. I'm saying the OS is not optimized for tablet apps. Google does not recommend current versions of Android for anything other than smart phones right now... and a lot of other stuff said
 

Here's the deal. Being dogmatic on a forum is different than what happens in reality. When I read initial reviews of the Tab, and then heard Jobs' rant, I actually dismissed the Tab. After using it, after testing it and putting it up beside the iPad. After getting others people's opinion and seeing an array of positive reviews, I changed my stance.

Wow, what a hack information age person I was for not forming my own opinion and just going with what the "Internet" was saying at the time. After all the testing in the real world I have concluded the Tab is better than the iPad. Do I think everyone will think that? No. Do I still like the iPad? Yes.

But because it has a million fart apps, it doesn't change the fatal flaws it has. In reality I am reaching for my Tab. I'm reaching for it to check Email, surf the web, watch movies, read books. The reality for me is that an app store full of software makes no difference to which device I prefer using in the real world.

And it's just hyperbole to say there's no software for it anyway. There is. It's on the Android marketplace right now. There is software on the app store for it, growing by the day. I mention other 7" Tablets because they are going to create a huge market segment that developers are going to gravitate to.

Reviews on the web.

Amazon.com: 4.5 star average rating
Gdgt.com 5/5 star average rating
Futureshop.ca: 4.3/5 star average rating
Bestbuy.com: 4.1 and 5/5 star average rating

Walt Mossberg: Tab is first real rival for iPad. 

Lots of positive reviews out there like these:

Welcome to TechNewsWorld

� Why The Samsung Galaxy Tab Is Better Than The iPad | Go Rumors

Samsung: Galaxy Tab sales "robust," headed for 1 million sales before year end | ZDNet

Dogmatic forum reality: Repeat after meida "Android is fragmented and not meant for a tablet, iOS is not fragmented, is designed for a tablet and therefore iOS is better. Android is thus inferior and perhsps even untenable and not worth consumers' time."

Reality: Android has 25% smartphone OS marketshare, iOS 17%.
Reality: People are liking the Tab in the real world. Samsung has sold over 700,000 of them thus far.

So regardless of what the media is saying, the market is the real speaker, and they are choosing Android. It's not a flop. It's not a failure. It's a success. And so is the Tab. If the Tab was that bad, nobody would buy it.

iOS is also a success. But my prediction is that iPad sales are going to slow and then be much less than thought because people are going to buy the 7" Tab, and other like tablets. That's my prediction based on everything that has been said. If Apple 'fixes' the iPad, then the story could change.

Time is going to either support my view, or not. We'll see.
( Last edited by freudling; Nov 28, 2010 at 02:46 PM. )
     
Spheric Harlot
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Nov 28, 2010, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
If it's any consolation, you aren't the only one that has run into these sorts of topics becoming seemingly extremely personal and needlessly confrontational.

Some refer to this as passion, I refer to it as pointless dogma.
Some just call it frustration over the conversation partners' continual and complete inability to see the forest for the trees.
     
besson3c
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Nov 28, 2010, 03:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Some just call it frustration over the conversation partners' continual and complete inability to see the forest for the trees.

Whatever you think the partner is seeing or not seeing does not warrant hostility. It just doesn't. It's not like somebody is ridiculing your way of life or something. Getting huffy about computing preferences is pretty much equivalent to Rob getting huffy over automotive preferences.
     
Stogieman
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Nov 28, 2010, 03:44 PM
 
The Tab is alright. Thank goodness Samsung decided to go with Android instead of Linux. What a shitty operating system that is. The Tab's sales numbers prove that Android is 300x more powerful than Linux.

See you on page 7.

Slick shoes?! Are you crazy?!
     
besson3c
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Nov 28, 2010, 03:54 PM
 
Never mind....
( Last edited by besson3c; Nov 28, 2010 at 04:01 PM. )
     
Big Mac
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Nov 28, 2010, 07:30 PM
 
besson, it comes as something of a shock to see that you don't realize freudling is trolling.

Pixelation, what is he talking about? I've never looked at my iPad and thought there was a problem with pixelation. Not once. And he dislikes that iOS has consistent interface elements across the devices that use it? That's a negative in his book? That's completely invalid, worthless criticism.

He's a troll.

( Last edited by Big Mac; Nov 28, 2010 at 07:36 PM. )

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
besson3c
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Nov 28, 2010, 07:48 PM
 
Expressing a difference of opinion is not trolling. Trolling is trying to annoy people by calling them names, goading them, provoking them for the pleasure of getting a certain reaction, etc. If he is trolling than you (or anybody else) expressing your opinions in the PWL is also trolling, because this is fundamentally the exact same thing.
     
Big Mac
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Nov 28, 2010, 08:07 PM
 
freudling is doing everything but calling names. He's making ridiculous claims against the iDevices to get a reaction out of an audience that is attracted to this site mostly because of dedication to Apple and its products.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
besson3c
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Nov 28, 2010, 08:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
freudling is doing everything but calling names. He's making ridiculous claims against the iDevices to get a reaction out of an audience that is attracted to this site mostly because of dedication to Apple and its products.

So your regular vitriol against some subset of the left in the PWL by way of using highly loaded language is therapy for you?

I think many claims in the PWL are ridiculous but I don't think the people making them are trolls.
     
Big Mac
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Nov 28, 2010, 08:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So your regular vitriol against some subset of the left in the PWL by way of using highly loaded language is therapy for you?
Therapy? Where did I indicate that?

I think many claims in the PWL are ridiculous but I don't think the people making them are trolls.
This isn't the PWL. I differentiate between the PWL and the rest of the forums and conduct myself differently outside of it.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
freudling  (op)
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Nov 28, 2010, 08:25 PM
 
Let me say that I'm not trolling. I'm not trying to elicit any reaction whatever. I'm posting facts and researched responses. This topic is important to me because we're going to be spending money to develop for this.

I posted on here to try to get feedback on this topic. Maybe I made a mistake. Actually, I think I may have.

It's incredible to me how touchy, sensitive, and dogmatic people are on this site. And how they don't seem to be open to reason... I wonder how you all fair working in groups, in teams, and doing real things in the real world.

I'm going to make it a point to find another forum to participate in moving forward, once this topic is done.
     
besson3c
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Nov 28, 2010, 08:30 PM
 
So not only is some people's definition of what trolling is rather bizarre, but it also depends on where it is happening?

Okay...
     
besson3c
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Nov 28, 2010, 08:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Let me say that I'm not trolling. I'm not trying to elicit any reaction whatever. I'm posting facts and researched responses. This topic is important to me because we're going to be spending money to develop for this.

I posted on here to try to get feedback on this topic. Maybe I made a mistake. Actually, I think I may have.

It's incredible to me how touchy, sensitive, and dogmatic people are on this site. And how they don't seem to be open to reason... I wonder how you all fair working in groups, in teams, and doing real things in the real world.

I'm going to make it a point to find another forum to participate in moving forward, once this topic is done.

What's funny to me is that many of these same people claim they care about the platform when what often hurts the platform the most is this sort of dogma and fanboyness...
     
imitchellg5
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Nov 28, 2010, 08:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
The iPad has a terrible screen? Wow. I'd say you'd have to be very demanding to find much fault with it. Most of your other claims are without much substance.

Valid Apple criticism is great, but I'm wondering: Has freudling always been this much of a troll?
The iPad's screen itself is fine, the problem is that the iPhone 4 makes it look (along with many other mobile LCDs) terribly outdated.
     
Big Mac
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Nov 28, 2010, 08:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
The iPad's screen itself is fine, the problem is that the iPhone 4 makes it look (along with many other mobile LCDs) terribly outdated.
That makes very little sense to me.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
 
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