[Toyin]

All I can say is that it's, fast, fast, fast.

Chimera/Camino Nightlies

[gorickey]

Originally posted by Toyin:
All I can say is that it's, fast, fast, fast.

Chimera/Camino Nightlies

Very cool. Does this Camino build have the latest branch changes? 15% speed increase?

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Meh, I still like Safari better.

[Montanan]

Originally posted by gorickey:
Does this Camino build have the latest branch changes? 15% speed increase?

Not yet, but it's promised.

I was a big fan of Chimera, but I'm afraid I'm preferring Safari more and more ... especially that it now has tabs. I really hope Chimera/Camino stays in the game somehow, but I'm beginning to doubt that its codebase will ever catch up again.

And besides, the "Camino" name is just sooooo unfortunate ...

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Who wants a bet that it will be canned within 6 months?

[blackmacx]

I know many people like Safari (and I enjoy using it); but for me Chimera/Camino is still a more robust and better browser. I know their both still Beta and Safari is far younger, but it's slow and doesn't render pages properly for me (v60) much of the time (I have a vanilla install); Chimera/Camino on the otherhand is fast, clean and I hope it isn't canned. I would like to see it supported and maybe offered more vigorously as a valid browser portion of the Mozilla family. I like Moz, but it's too big and slow (even with tweaking, last version I used was 1.3alpha).

I hope Chimera/Camino reachs v1.0 release at least before it's shelved.

BlackMacX

[invisibleX]

I use Safari but i prefer Camino. It is faster than Safari on my machine and it just seems to render pages better. I'm still sticking with Safari till version 1.0 of both.

[stevenhaddon]

I still prefer and use Camino too. Tabbed browsing is (obviously) much more mature than in Safari at present. I renders my online bank better. Also, although it's pretty speedy most of the time, I find Safari often has long periods of disk access that are just plain irritating.

Steve

[gorickey]

One thing I give Safari over Camino is their access speed in caching and getting back to previously viewed pages. I hope Camino works on this.

[calumr]

Originally posted by gorickey:
Very cool. Does this Camino build have the latest branch changes? 15% speed increase?

Nope - there will be a Camino 0.7 and then there will be the big branch merge. Actually, in the last few weeks there have been only a handful of tweaks to Chimera/Camino, mainly to do with little UI quirks. The only difference you'll see in the latest builds is the name change.

[Peter]

let the browser wars begin

[KidRed]

Originally posted by stevenhaddon:
I still prefer and use Camino too. Tabbed browsing is (obviously) much more mature than in Safari at present. I renders my online bank better. Also, although it's pretty speedy most of the time, I find Safari often has long periods of disk access that are just plain irritating.

Steve

Tabs are much more mature then in Safari? What continstitutes maturity? What will be puberty for Sfari then? It's a fricking tab that you click on for the web page, close when your done. You can right click to add more, refresh all and there's a close button on the tab itself that chimera doesn't have. To me, Safari's tabs are MORE mature then chimeras.

[SpeedRacer]

I don't really know how the majority of users can rate Safari higher than Camino at this point. Perhaps the diversity of sites viewed here is not that great? Granted the interface is typical Apple-licious and the speed is great, but if the engine chokes on anything outside of a perfectly-coded website, what good is all the speed and pizzaz in the world?

Camino is approaching the site compatibility level of IE, many web developers code for (at most) two engines (IE and Mozilla/Netscape) and, seeing such a great interface on top of a mainstream rendering engine with a great deal of support like Gecko just seems like a better long-term proposition to me.

Speed

[KidRed]

Because what safari does right it does beter then Chimera. It's faster then chimera, looks better then chimera has a better bookmarking feature then chimera and will be a lot better in a few more beta updates then chimera.

As far as the perfectly coded site, safari won't choke on it, but it won't hide your flawed incompetent coding either. A browser show display the code, not make up for it. Windows IE is so terrbily flawed when it comes to standards compliancy. I'd rather have it hit or miss so I know that there's something wrong. i check all my sites in Safari before uploading them.

Gee, that's why I rate it higher then chimera.

[gorickey]

Chimera sucks but Camino is cool.

[Anand]

You know, when Safari came out. I moved straight to it and did not look back. However, I just tried camino (chimera) again and wow, is it a nice browser. I hope they don't stop but really, how do you compete. And why, there is no money in it. Not like Watson, which is a lot better that the apple offering and brings in money. I just hope Apple incorporates much of Chimera into Safari.

[ratlater]

Originally posted by KidRed:
Tabs are much more mature then in Safari? What continstitutes maturity? What will be puberty for Sfari then? It's a fricking tab that you click on for the web page, close when your done. You can right click to add more, refresh all and there's a close button on the tab itself that chimera doesn't have. To me, Safari's tabs are MORE mature then chimeras.

Ha, Safari's tabs have a long way to go. There is a major bug where 'apple-w' sometimes closes the whole window instead of just the frontmost tab. This is really frustrating if you have 4 or 5 tabs open. Try to open a lot of tabs with safari, and watch as they continue opening even after they have extened beyond the edge of your window. It's ludicrous to be able to open a new tab if the tab doesn't even show up on the window.

Safari's tabs are a nice start, but not even close to mature.

-matt

[Toyin]

After using it more, it doesn't seem much faster than Safari. The thing that really makes the difference is cached items. Safari is pretty much instantaneous where as Camino takes a fraction of a second. So I'm back to Safari again.

As for maturity of tabs, once Safari can...
1) Open tabs in the background 100% of the time...
2) Close only the tab, not the entire window with command-w 100% of the time...
3) Load new windows from other application requests in new tabs instead of a new window...
4) Bookmark tabs...
it will be as mature as Camino's tabs.

I do notice however that switching between tabs is faster in Safari vs Camino.

[xtal]

Let the browser wars begin.

"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war."



I'm dying to see the Safari 1.0 release.

[codywalton]

blah... ever since i acquired safari with tabs i have absolutely no need to use another browser.

Safari rocks....

[Peter]

what more can they add? sure the tabs needs refining and autofill needs to be better. but what new features eh?

[nobodybutme]

Another vote for Camino. I like it better than Safari in almost every way, except for bookmark management. Safari still has more rendering problems for sites I need to access, so for me Safari is particularly useless.

[Peter]

cannot decide between Safari or Camino. Safari, because its Apple and all...
Camino, because it is faster and it does exactly what I want when viewing MacNN forums YAY fonts

[Jowy]

Originally posted by PeterClark2002:
what more can they add? sure the tabs needs refining and autofill needs to be better. but what new features eh?

Well the only other thing I'd like to see is implemenation of image blocking. On other forums I visit (not this one) there are users that think it's funny to post big annoying images as their signatures/avatars. That's why I like to stick w/ CFM Moz mainly.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Jowy:
Well the only other thing I'd like to see is implemenation of image blocking. On other forums I visit (not this one) there are users that think it's funny to post big annoying images as their signatures/avatars. That's why I like to stick w/ CFM Moz mainly.

there is an add blocking CSS script on the net, which can be used with most browsers. I have never been able to use Mozilla I find it alot slower on dialup and half the features I dont use. I prefer the speedy and light browsers

[SpeedRacer]

Originally posted by KidRed:
As far as the perfectly coded site, safari won't choke on it, but it won't hide your flawed incompetent coding either. A browser show display the code, not make up for it.

Fine, but the majority of users simply want a browser that works with the site they are trying to reach. Standards-compliant or not, if you've a job to do and you can't access a site b/c the "Apple browser" doesn't work with it, guess who it makes look bad? Right or wrong, it's often *not* the poorly coding developer. It's the browser (and subsequently the platform).

If Camino goes away, the Mac platform will be losing one of the best chances it has to have a browser that is truly fast, small, and well-supported by web developers (by being based on Mozilla).

Safari is great. Has a lot of innovative features. But i'm still very concerned over support for yet another alternative web engine (Konqueror) by the development community.

[neoTony]

I'd like to see the W3C merge some of the mozilla "radius" CSS calls into CSS3... and then have KHTML/WebCore support it

mmm... tasty & round.

Oh, and my only complaint about Camino - (well, apart from the name!) - when are they going to implement a REAL history? Just bizarre...

[pliny]

Originally posted by SpeedRacer:
Fine, but the majority of users simply want a browser that works with the site they are trying to reach. Standards-compliant or not, if you've a job to do and you can't access a site b/c the "Apple browser" doesn't work with it, guess who it makes look bad? Right or wrong, it's often *not* the poorly coding developer. It's the browser (and subsequently the platform).

If Camino goes away, the Mac platform will be losing one of the best chances it has to have a browser that is truly fast, small, and well-supported by web developers (by being based on Mozilla).

Safari is great. Has a lot of innovative features. But i'm still very concerned over support for yet another alternative web engine (Konqueror) by the development community.

Yes, Safari has good potential but it still has some ground to make up in terms of site compatibility. Chimera has done quite a bit to advance the state of browsing on X, that's for sure, it effectively raised the bar. Safari is still, at 7 mb, quite a bit smaller than Chimera, ~ 22mb.

Bloat, anyone? This is what happened to Mozilla. Hopefully when it goes back on the tree to pick up changes it will come down a bit in size.

In terms of speed and compatibility Chimera is excellent. In terms of features, not so good, I'd say of the big 3 (Omniweb, Safari, Camino) it is the least Mac-like. History and cookie management are slow, archaic, and just clunky. Rendering is not up to par with Safari much less Omniweb. Drag and drop is hit and miss although superior to earlier builds. The icons are over large and squarish, in fact very Windowsish. The inability to search from the url bar ala Mozilla or IE without a hack is a crime. The download manager is obtrusive.

[gorickey]

0.7.0 Was officially released this evening....

http://www.versiontracker.com/macosx

[Eug]

Check out www.macromedia.com

It's still very slow on Camino like it was on Chimera. It's much faster on Safari.

OTOH, Camino renders more cleanly than Safari on a lot of sites.

[spiney]

Wow,

0.70 Really screams relative to 0.60

Really nice work!

[Ozmodiar]

Posting from Camino .70. I forgot how fast Chimera really was. This is much faster than Safari on my TiBook 400.

[TheIceMan]

Originally posted by Eug:
Check out www.macromedia.com

It's still very slow on Camino like it was on Chimera. It's much faster on Safari.

OTOH, Camino renders more cleanly than Safari on a lot of sites.

Eug
Thanks for that link. Wow, I'm on Camino 0.7 right now and did a side-by-side comparison of the macromedia site w/ Safari's newest v.64. Safari loaded the flash page much better and faster. Even the colors look better and were more saturated than Camino. I'm gonna still use Camino though since I like the way the tabs look.

[superfula]

I use Safari because it is faster than Camino. The only website I've found that Safari doesn't do is my bank page, and that isn't a big deal.

Camino makes nice pages look nasty. Take macnn, and neowin, two pages I frequent quite a bit. The text is horribly rendered in both. In order for it to look decent (and readable) I have to make the font larger, and then it isn't even that great.

The bookmark management is much nicer in Safari, as is the expres back feature. And honestly, Safari has a better gui. I guess I haven't found one reason to use Camino yet.

Yeah that stupid ctrl-w bug kills me. I'll have a few tabs going, want to close the one I'm looking at, and ctrl-w kills the whole window. This doesn't happen a lot, but when it does, it's annoying.

For me, it's Safari, OmniWeb, then Camino.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Camino handles sites better more features.

Safari has much faster cashe, looks better, crashes less and is faster. Now that it has tabs and autocompleat I am in love love love.

[fireside]

im still waiting it to load.....

[SteevAK]

Just checking for the lame text input...seems its not fixed. Though it is an improvement? Anybody finding the same?

[Beer Penguin]

If Safari were made by any company other than apple, it would have half the user-base it does now.

Gogogo Camino.

[swiz]

FINALLY, they followed suit with Safari and made buttons and popup buttons small style so they arent all cramped together. This makes my browser decision quite easy now until the new Safari with tabs is out.

[Peter]

what is the latest version of Camino? I am using 0.6, is there a newer version?

[milhouse]

Camino/Chimera is still much more usable than Safari IMHO. It has keychain support and the speed is great.

Just because Apple releases a browser is no reason to use it.

My $0.02: Camino is going to be a tough act to follow.

[Toyin]

Originally posted by Toyin:
After using it more, it doesn't seem much faster than Safari. The thing that really makes the difference is cached items. Safari is pretty much instantaneous where as Camino takes a fraction of a second. So I'm back to Safari again.

As for maturity of tabs, once Safari can...
1) Open tabs in the background 100% of the time...
2) Close only the tab, not the entire window with command-w 100% of the time...
3) Load new windows from other application requests in new tabs instead of a new window...
4) Bookmark tabs...
it will be as mature as Camino's tabs.

I do notice however that switching between tabs is faster in Safari vs Camino.

Safari v64
1) Check
2) Check (so far)
3) Not yet
4) Open bookmarks in tabs, almost there

[swiz]

Originally posted by PeterClark2002:
what is the latest version of Camino? I am using 0.6, is there a newer version?

.7 Was released last night.

[Peter]

Originally posted by swiz:
.7 Was released last night.

are there any big(ish) improvements?
I have just seen noticed Caminos download window - very nice

[Anomalous]

I like Safari better, because it handles file helpers better, and you can command-click the toolbar to open bookmarks in a new window. (I do use Camino for the MacNN forums because of the tabs, however.)

[Peter]

I realy cannot decide. Someone should make a poll seeing as these two are the main browsers.
I like Caminos tabs, but like Safari in that it is Apple.
Camino lets me write my posts (in MacNN) in Verdana Pt.10. Which I love, Safari cannot do this.

[swiz]

The one thing which makes me like Camino better is the tabs (sorry Guy). I like Safaris antialiased text on macnn and its bookmark support. When Safari has tabs I'll prolly switch but I cant say for sure because the newest version of Camino even kicks the last "Chimera" release all over the place.

[Peter]

Originally posted by swiz:
The one thing which makes me like Camino better is the tabs (sorry Guy). I like Safaris antialiased text on macnn and its bookmark support. When Safari has tabs I'll prolly switch but I cant say for sure because the newest version of Camino even kicks the last "Chimera" release all over the place.

Safari has tabs, which i guess you knew. But Caminos tabs are alot nicer At the moment I find Safari too much of a ram hogger so I'll stick with Camino.

[SpeedRacer]

Wow. I think the recent article over at mozilla.org really sums it up quite well. Sounds like we'll see a convergence of both speed and compatibility between Safari and Mozilla across time:

The release of Safari has generated some discussion of Gecko's complexity and performance which bear addressing. Gecko is large and complex. We would like Gecko to be smaller and simpler and we're working on it. Elegance, like speed, is sexy. But simple and elegant must be weighed against the need to cope with web content as it exists today. And web content today is not simple, not elegant and not standards compliant. Today's web requires a rendering engine to do gymnastics to understand the wildly varying ways in which websites operate. Gecko performs these gymnastics with exceptional precision.

Everything we've seen suggests that KTHML has a ways to go to catch up with rendering real web pages. At the same time, Gecko should become smaller and simpler. We've seen significant improvements during the last year, and we anticipate continued refinements. We've achieved an exceptional ability to render the web, now we're looking at maintaining that compatibility while eliminating unnecessary overhead.

The particular performance data released by Apple for the Safari and Camino browsers have limited implications for Gecko performance for several reasons. First, the version that Apple tested, was the 0.6 release, which is built on an old version of Gecko. The Camino project began using a branch of the Gecko source almost a year ago and has not yet updated to a newer version. This means that the 0.6 does not contain a number of the performance improvements made to Gecko in the last year. The Camino team plans to move Camino to the current version of Gecko in the 0.8 timeframe, after which Camino will better demonstrate Gecko's capabilities and potential.

Second, the scope of content a browser knows how to render can also affect its performance. A browser that knows how to render advanced CSS2 style rules, for example, is liable to take more time to display a page using those rules than one that doesn't, since browsers ignore code they don't understand. Gecko's support for standards-based and non-standards-based pages is unparalleled. This ability to render pages correctly--one of Gecko's significant benefits--may come at a small price in performance, but it is a price likely to be paid by other browsers as well as they develop Gecko's level of sophistication.

Check out the full article here:
http://www.mozilla.org/browser-innovation.html

Speed

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by PeterClark2002:
are there any big(ish) improvements?

Ya they changed the name so now it is 10x faster then Safari!