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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > macOS > Why I'm going back to windows.

Why I'm going back to windows. (Page 3)
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Ted L. Nancy
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Jul 24, 2008, 01:29 PM
 
...another ubiquitous "x OS is better than y OS (and here's why)" post...
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danuff
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Jul 24, 2008, 08:01 PM
 
How much are you getting from Microsoft to post this?

Don't let the door hit you on the way out....
     
tinkered
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Jul 25, 2008, 02:35 AM
 
To me, issues 1, 3, and 4 all relate to the OP's comfort with the UI. I can relate, except I have the same problem when I work in window. At my office people make comments about how I do things on Windows computer "the Mac way." I have been working on breaking these habits and do things the way Windows was best engineered to do things, and I have become more productive as a result.

Based on my experience, my advice to the OP would be to accept that after years of using windows you have learned to do things in a windows way, which although optimized for windows, is not optimized for a Mac, just as my Mac ways are not optimized for Windows use. The solution is to learn to use the different platforms differently.
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freudling
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Jul 25, 2008, 03:28 AM
 
So sick of these threads... Go away... we don't want the whole world using Macs anyway, the fewer the better... nobody cares man...
     
Big Mac
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Jul 25, 2008, 03:44 AM
 
Well said.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
kelchm  (op)
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Jul 25, 2008, 05:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by zaghahzag View Post
did you guys miss his post? He clearly stated that he wanted to be able to play crysis and pwn his friends w/ his new 500$ video card that he's running in a 500$ POS homebuild with a power supply that is about to fry the whole thing.
Right, since because I built it myself means it must be an unreliable pos.

My power supply is, or was a top of the line corsair model (Seasonic is the OEM) from a couple years back. Quite honestly Seasonic stuff is near the top of my list for power supplies.

Anyway. Back on topic.

Why do you SOME of you feel to need to personally attack me and generally be ********? I never attacked you or really said anything like "OS X sucks". I listed a few things that I was really annoyed with at the time.

Go away... we don't want the whole world using Macs anyway, the fewer the better...
Really? Is it supposed to be some sort of exclusive club? With posting things like this is it any surprise where people come up with stereotypes?

How much are you getting from Microsoft to post this?
What... Because I actually like Vista or because I was actually daring enough to try posting some things that were bothering me?

Don't let the door hit you on the way out....
I like OS X. I do. I said that in my first post. My complaint lies in the fact that as a long time windows user I've found some things which really bug me. I'll admit I jumped the gun a bit and might have been somewhat overdramatic in saying I was giving up on OS X completely. In case you missed it, I actually posted a list of things I was missing since I went back to using my desktop for say to day use. On top of that I even said I was going to give the macbook another go.

Originally Posted by kelchm
1. Adium... Its such a well executed and customizable application. About the only thing that even comes close to it on Windows is Digsby.
2. Reliable podcast downloads in iTunes. iTunes isn't perfect but I've yet to find anything else that does podcasts as well as it does. Kudos Apple.
3. Consistency. I kinda forgot how bad the UI inconsistency is in Windows.
4. Driver issues already. Having issues with my current Nvidia drivers, but that is the cost of having drivers that need to be updated for new games all the time.

I'm sorry if my original post rubbed anyone the wrong way, at the time I was a little miffed at some of the issues I was having. Honestly, I still haven't wrapped my head around the idea of using Expose yet, even after having this system for several months. I've even mapped it to a mouse button, but I still find it a pain to use. My instinct is just to go to the dock and click on what I want.

That said, I think I'm gonna give the the MacBook another few weeks and hope for the best. I might try upgrading the hdd/ram to eek a little more performance out of it. As long as I have my desktop for any heavy lifting (encoding/rendering/mass storage) I should be fine using the macbook for day to day use.
Anyway, please lighten up folks.
     
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Jul 25, 2008, 06:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by ibook_steve View Post
Here's a little known keyboard shortcut that I only found out recently.

cmd-` (that's the left apostrophe underneath the esc key) will switch between open windows within an application without having to go into Expose.


Not because I didn't know it, but because you didn't! I was going to guess you don't use a laptop, but with your moniker...
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Horsepoo!!!
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Jul 25, 2008, 06:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by kelchm View Post
Right, since because I built it myself means it must be an unreliable pos.

My power supply is, or was a top of the line corsair model (Seasonic is the OEM) from a couple years back. Quite honestly Seasonic stuff is near the top of my list for power supplies.

Anyway. Back on topic.

Why do you SOME of you feel to need to personally attack me and generally be ********? I never attacked you or really said anything like "OS X sucks". I listed a few things that I was really annoyed with at the time.



Really? Is it supposed to be some sort of exclusive club? With posting things like this is it any surprise where people come up with stereotypes?



I like OS X. I do. I said that in my first post. My complaint lies in the fact that as a long time windows user I've found some things which really bug me. I'll admit I jumped the gun a bit and might have been somewhat overdramatic in saying I was giving up on OS X completely. In case you missed it, I actually posted a list of things I was missing since I went back to using my desktop for say to day use. On top of that I even said I was going to give the macbook another go.



Anyway, please lighten up folks.
kelchm...you have to understand that a lot of the MacNNers are indeed assholes. This forum has become a forum of elitist know-it-all assholes. I too am starting to back away from this forum because it's kinda scary how people here treat people with different views.
     
analogika
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Jul 25, 2008, 08:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! View Post
kelchm...you have to understand that a lot of the MacNNers are indeed assholes. This forum has become a forum of elitist know-it-all assholes. I too am starting to back away from this forum because it's kinda scary how people here treat people with different views.
Please don't expect any sympathy for your views on UFOs and government-alien conspiracies on a Mac forum.
     
Horsepoo!!!
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Jul 25, 2008, 08:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
Please don't expect any sympathy for your views on UFOs and government-alien conspiracies on a Mac forum.
You seem to be on a crusade to hunt down my every post to denigrate me. You also seem to be in the wrong forum. The lounge is thattaway. --->
     
Chuckit
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Jul 25, 2008, 09:30 AM
 
Stay on topic. The topic of this thread isn't MacNN, its members or UFOs.
Chuck
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Roehlstation
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Jul 25, 2008, 02:25 PM
 
So....a college student that can't afford a $3000 Mac Pro but can spend all kinds of money on music. It isn't cheap to be an Audiophile. Funny thing is, I found I had more money when I was in college than after school, at least for a number of years.

Take a look around for deals, don't let money be your deterrent from buying a Mac for example about a month ago I bought a 2 GHz Core 2 Duo imac for $325. Just look for the deals. As a student, you already get better pricing anyway. Anyway, wouldn't "going back to Windows" allow me to assume you already have a Mac? What difference does it make how much one costs if you already have it?

The good software costs money on a Mac? Last time I checked the Mac already comes with a bunch of software making the computer useful out of the box, where PCs only come with Windows and a dozen trial apps. MS Office is more expensive than iWork and OpenOffice is available for both. (I don't have office installed on my Mac and found I don't need it) Good software costs money on either platform, yeah there are a lot of "free" apps out there for PCs, but are they "good"?

Remember a $3000 Mac Pro will likely not be obsolete for well over 10 years. I have an 8 year old G4 that still runs a lot of the current stuff, I did upgrade to that imac, but my wife is extatic about the speed of that 8 year old computer she upgraded to from the Cube. (I'll be using the Cube as a media server)

I have a collection of 5 working Macs and the only one I've even paid for is the $325 iMac, which proves that if you keep your eye open, you can find a great deal.

So go back to Windows if you want, just make sure you don't buy an HP with an AMD processor, if you do, ignore the Service Pack 3 upgrade for Windows XP or you'll find yourself reloading your computer, since SP3 renders those computers inoperable.
     
kelchm  (op)
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Jul 25, 2008, 04:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Roehlstation View Post
So....a college student that can't afford a $3000 Mac Pro but can spend all kinds of money on music. It isn't cheap to be an Audiophile. Funny thing is, I found I had more money when I was in college than after school, at least for a number of years.
You can be an audiophile on a budget. I use some relatively inexpensive KRK Monitors with a few geration old Harman Kardon AVR. Used CDs can be bought for a few dollars if you know where to look. You don't have to spend all kinds of money to enjoy music and high quality audio.
Originally Posted by Roehlstation View Post
Take a look around for deals, don't let money be your deterrent from buying a Mac for example about a month ago I bought a 2 GHz Core 2 Duo imac for $325. Just look for the deals. As a student, you already get better pricing anyway. Anyway, wouldn't "going back to Windows" allow me to assume you already have a Mac? What difference does it make how much one costs if you already have it?
I already have a macbook. I think you missed my point. I got a good deal on my macbook. I'm not complaining about that. I feel that Apple is missing large market segment by not offering a headless workstation that doesn't cost 3000.00.
Originally Posted by Roehlstation View Post
The good software costs money on a Mac? Last time I checked the Mac already comes with a bunch of software making the computer useful out of the box, where PCs only come with Windows and a dozen trial apps. MS Office is more expensive than iWork and OpenOffice is available for both. (I don't have office installed on my Mac and found I don't need it) Good software costs money on either platform, yeah there are a lot of "free" apps out there for PCs, but are they "good"?
Perhaps the more correct way to put things is that my windows licenses (whether things I've paid for, or things I can get via through school for free)
Originally Posted by Roehlstation View Post
Remember a $3000 Mac Pro will likely not be obsolete for well over 10 years. I have an 8 year old G4 that still runs a lot of the current stuff, I did upgrade to that imac, but my wife is extatic about the speed of that 8 year old computer she upgraded to from the Cube. (I'll be using the Cube as a media server)
That might be the case for some people, but not for me. Maybe it comes down to the fact I'm a hardware junkie, but I tend to upgrade my hardware on a yearly basis. Granted an two quad core xeons are going to give me a bit more leeway, but still... 10 years, no way.

Originally Posted by Roehlstation View Post
So go back to Windows if you want, just make sure you don't buy an HP with an AMD processor, if you do, ignore the Service Pack 3 upgrade for Windows XP or you'll find yourself reloading your computer, since SP3 renders those computers inoperable.
The last complete system I've had was a dell my parents bought me when I was younger. Everything since then has been built by me.
     
wingdo
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Jul 25, 2008, 10:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by rem View Post
So true, its difficult to screen out nagware, spyware & malware to find decent Windows apps. Meanwhile there are many high quality free apps for OS X that are so easy to find.
I couldn't agree more. I never think twice about testing anything I download for OS X even from google links. Downloading random stuff you have never heard of before (but looks useful) for Windows from google will get you nothing but trouble.
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Jul 25, 2008, 11:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Imagine this: you have 2 Word documents open, and 2 IE windows open. You can easily use the Taskbar to switch between the windows. You cannot easily do so with the Dock. I know Expose kills that, but sometimes I wonder if the Dock would work better with such a 1-to-1 relationship. For instance, imagine if you had 2 Safari windows open, and you could have 2 Safari icons in the Dock next to each other, one for each window.
Why do you use the Dock to switch windows or apps? That's what command-Tab and command-` are for. command-Tab will switch through your apps, and command-` will scroll back through the open windows in an app. That's a heck of a lot easier than grabbing the mouse and going down to the taskbar to click on the app and then select the desired window from the pop-up.

Am I missing something?
     
Longwalker
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Jul 26, 2008, 12:41 AM
 
Hi Kelchm,

I switched to Mac OS X v10.1 after living in Windows for many years and working professionally in Windows development. My UI challenge was somewhat with window management and more with keyboard shortcuts. (This was before Expose, btw). I struggled for quite awhile with OS X's lack of transparent, consistent, "discoverable" keyboard shortcuts that Windows has. Yes, you can look in the menu in Mac OS X to learn the keyboard shortcuts, but in Windows you can press the ALT key, then see which keys you need to press to drill into menus and submenus and find the command you want, all mouseless. i.e., ALT then E for Edit then X for Cut or P for Paste. That kind of thing. I also struggled for awhile with the lack of full-screen windows that Windows uses. It really took me about a year to get used to it, but I finally learned that Mac really does mean it when they say "Drag & Drop"... it works for SO MANY data items across so many applications, and it means that you really want to see (at least some of) both windows when you drag & drop. At this point I realized that the Microsoft never really completed their early intention of making Windows drag & drop. Windows became more about Cut/Copy, switch to the App/Window you want, then Paste. Different paradigm, and I was good at it, but it's not really The Mac Way. So having maximized windows that don't go full-screen supports the Mac way of doing things. If you find the other windows distracting, use the "Hide Others command to make them invisible. You'll still be able to switch to them with the Dock or COMMAND+TAB (though Exposé will no longer show them, unfortunately).

With Leopard I've fallen in love with ability to scroll background windows. It's so bloody useful to scroll a Safari page or PDF that you're referencing whilst writing an email or Word doc in the foreground window. Nothing in prior OS X versions, or in Windows AFAIK, lets you do this. But what Apple Giveth, Apple Taketh Away: much to my chagrin, the new Leopard Help System forces its window on top of all others, so you cannot switch back and forth between your "working window" and the "help window" that you're using for instruction. Lame!

A couple years ago, a friend of mine, also a longtime Windows user, switched to Mac. I was his tutor in switching, and MAN was he grumpy about the Mac-vs-Windows differences. Watching him struggle with the Mac UI showed me just how much I have internalized the Mac way of doing things. He's now happy with his Mac, btw. Based on my year-long learning curve, and his too, I'd say you're still in the early stages of unlearning the Windows way and discovering the subtleties of Mac navigation. I recommend you stick with it, and watch other more experienced Mac users to see how they manage Windows, keyboard, and mouse usage. People are different, as you can tell from your responses on this forum. For example, try QuickSilver, it's great. Or try removing all apps from the Dock so that it's not a Program Launcher (user QuickSilver, LaunchBar, or Spotlight for that instead), and just glance at the dock to see what's Currently Running. A much cleaner Dock. Or try becoming an Exposé power user (I'm not; I prefer Spotlight and COMMAND+TAB and COMMAND+~).

As to the issue of ripping lossless yet still putting compressed MP3/AAC files on your iPod, I remember seeing an article and/or some AppleScripts to do just this. I can't remember exactly where, so you'll have to Google around, but definitely look at Doug's AppleScripts for iTunes because I seem to recall some of that has been automated. As I recall, it takes your Lossless library and re-encodes a subset of it into smaller files (128? arbitrary kbps?) for syncing to your iPod. With cheap external Hard Drives, this should be a piece of cake. iTunes does support multiple libraries, so you can have your iPhone syncing to compressed files while your audiophile home stereo is playing off your Lossless library. Might take some careful configuration, but I'm 95% sure you can do this.

Even though I knew Windows inside and out, was a power user, and admit that there are a few things I miss about Windows, I would not go back. OS X is wonderful once you get the gestalt of it.

My $0.02,
Longwalker
( Last edited by Longwalker; Jul 26, 2008 at 12:49 AM. )
     
tinkered
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Jul 26, 2008, 01:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by kelchm View Post
I already have a macbook. I think you missed my point. I got a good deal on my macbook. I'm not complaining about that. I feel that Apple is missing large market segment by not offering a headless workstation that doesn't cost 3000.00.
I completely agree. I don't need a server, but I do need desktop that can handle to internal drives, a graphics card that needs a second slot for cooling, and 4 GB of RAM. Write now, this machine is a PC because it best suites my cost/benefit expectations.

Originally Posted by kelchm View Post
The last complete system I've had was a dell my parents bought me when I was younger. Everything since then has been built by me.
If you can build your own system it is hard to be locked in to hardware.
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Simon
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Jul 26, 2008, 04:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by kelchm View Post
I feel that Apple is missing large market segment by not offering a headless workstation that doesn't cost 3000.00.
This is not true even if it is repeated every so often. As has been pointed out by several people here you can get refurb MPs for $2k. It might not be the latest and the greatest, but it's a very good machine at a decent price.
     
mduell
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Jul 26, 2008, 01:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Roehlstation View Post
Remember a $3000 Mac Pro will likely not be obsolete for well over 10 years.
Yes, yes it will be for people with needs that justify buying a Mac Pro today.

Originally Posted by Roehlstation View Post
I have an 8 year old G4 that still runs a lot of the current stuff
The same can be said for a 10 year old PC... what's the point of such statements? It's not a computer that any user with needs near average would want to use.
     
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Jul 26, 2008, 05:23 PM
 
Just because you said you are into gaming, I would say you are better suited to a Windows machine.

What I think would be best is for you to build youself a nice desktop, then have a dual boot setup with XP/Vista and OSX.

You can find all the info needed to install OSX on a non Apple computer, just google OSX86.

Keep in mind this is unsupported as OSX is hacked to use different CPU kernels and hardware setups. I am not condoning software piracy. If you like the OS, you should support the company and buy it.
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Jul 27, 2008, 10:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
This is not true even if it is repeated every so often. As has been pointed out by several people here you can get refurb MPs for $2k. It might not be the latest and the greatest, but it's a very good machine at a decent price.
Decent == still really expensive?

If it costs more than an iMac (which actually comes with a display), I don't think it's a very decent price.
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zombie punk
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Jul 27, 2008, 11:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
This is not true even if it is repeated every so often. As has been pointed out by several people here you can get refurb MPs for $2k. It might not be the latest and the greatest, but it's a very good machine at a decent price.
It's absolutely true. I would love a sub 1k headless workstation.
     
Luca Rescigno
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Jul 27, 2008, 12:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by wingdo View Post
Originally Posted by rem
So true, its difficult to screen out nagware, spyware & malware to find decent Windows apps. Meanwhile there are many high quality free apps for OS X that are so easy to find.
I couldn't agree more. I never think twice about testing anything I download for OS X even from google links. Downloading random stuff you have never heard of before (but looks useful) for Windows from google will get you nothing but trouble.
That's nuts. Spyware is so, SO easy to avoid if you're not stupid. Sure, if you download LimeWire and click every link you get in your email and click the ads that show up on various shady sites promising "FREE MP3s!!!," you might get some spyware.

But if you're an intelligent computer user, it'll never happen. Among Windows users who know what they're doing, almost none have problems with viruses or spyware. I've had a Windows machine for six months and I'm very happy with it. Zero spyware. I also did a poll at Ars Technica about this and all but two or three respondents were the same way (no problems at all). They're all knowledgeable about computers so you're only really affected by spyware if you don't know any better.

Anyway, if you're more of a hardware junkie or if you like gaming, Windows is a no-brainer. Not Linux, but Windows. Linux is for software junkies and doesn't have very good hardware support. Windows has the best hardware support and the best gaming support.

But the best way to go about getting a Windows machine is to build it yourself. Not only is it fun (well, for some people), but it also teaches you a lot about how computers work, it makes it easy to self-diagnose any problems that crop up, and it makes upgrades super easy. It's also much cheaper than buying a pre-built machine and it lets you pick exactly what hardware you want, so you don't waste money on components that you don't care about.

Also, I'm sorry, but that $2000 refurbished Mac Pro is pretty stupid. You can build your own PC with an Intel Core 2 Quad, 4 GB of RAM, a 1 TB hard drive, and a GeForce 8800GT for half the price of that Mac Pro. Maybe the Mac Pro has some advantages that make it worth that much money, but as far as I can tell, the main thing that drives up the price is the Xeon processors (which are way more expensive than Core processors; I'm not sure why).

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Chuckit
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Jul 27, 2008, 12:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno View Post
That's nuts. Spyware is so, SO easy to avoid if you're not stupid. Sure, if you download LimeWire and click every link you get in your email and click the ads that show up on various shady sites promising "FREE MP3s!!!," you might get some spyware.

But if you're an intelligent computer user, it'll never happen. Among Windows users who know what they're doing, almost none have problems with viruses or spyware. I've had a Windows machine for six months and I'm very happy with it. Zero spyware. I also did a poll at Ars Technica about this and all but two or three respondents were the same way (no problems at all). They're all knowledgeable about computers so you're only really affected by spyware if you don't know any better.
Would you say downloading random, unknown software to try it out is a risky behavior?
Chuck
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seanc
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Jul 27, 2008, 01:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Would you say downloading random, unknown software to try it out is a risky behavior?
With Limewire and associated apps, yes, there are lots of apps masquerading as other things.

When it comes to finding software, there are lots of websites that list software that costs $29.99 and comes with a shady installer containing spyware or an unwanted IE search bar.
     
Luca Rescigno
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Jul 27, 2008, 03:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Would you say downloading random, unknown software to try it out is a risky behavior?
Yeah, pretty much. When I'm looking for software to do something I generally try to look for recommendations before just downloading something randomly. I also try to download from places like cnet and sourceforge instead of just some random website.

It's not perfect and I don't consider Windows to be the best option for everyone, but for me it works because I know enough to avoid malware. But malware and viruses really aren't a problem if you know what you're doing.

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Simon
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Jul 27, 2008, 04:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
It's absolutely true. I would love a sub 1k headless workstation.
Guess what, I'd love a $10 headless workstation. This is all entirely irrelevant.

Point is that's not what Apple does. If you want a MP but are on a budget you should get a refurb. If $2k for that kind of hardware is still more than you can or want to afford, you should move on. Complaining on a forum won't change a thing about it.
     
Simon
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Jul 27, 2008, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Decent == still really expensive?

If it costs more than an iMac (which actually comes with a display), I don't think it's a very decent price.
$2k is still a lot of money I agree with you.

The point is that that $2k refurb MP comes with a lot the iMac simply doesn't offer. And if you really need those features $2k sounds quite decent. If you don't, then $2k is too much, but then you should also be looking at an iMac rather than a MP.

There are gaps in Apple's in-up we all know that. The real question is how to best approach the machine you need with the money you have. And if you simply can't do that with Apple kit then you should really get something else. Coincidentally this is also the best way to get Apple to change their line-up to better fot your needs. Complaining on a board about it won't.
     
mattyb
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Jul 27, 2008, 04:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by kelchm View Post
Don't get me wrong. I really like OS X and I'd like to keep using it. In any case, heres why I'm going back.

1. Hardware. I know that for most consumers out there a laptop or all in one desktop works for you. For me it doesn't. I need an expandable/upgradeable desktop system. Unfortunately the only offering Apple has that meets these needs is the $3000 Mac Pro. Something I can't afford as a student.

2. Itunes. (and the fact there are no alternatives) I like iTunes overall, but its missing a key feature thats a near deal breaker for me. I'm something of an audiophile and rip all of my CDs in lossless format. I need to be able to do d like to do on the fly transcoding when transferring to an iPod. On windows I would use Media Monkey or JRiver MEdia Center to do this.

3. As nice as the dock looks, it just doesn't work for me. I find the taskbar to be much more conducive to multi tasking.

4. A distracting enviroment... OS X looks great, but the fact is I'm not as productive when I use it. I'm not entirely sure why, but I think part of it comes down to the fac that I can't just 'maximize' the window I'm working with. In windows this is as easy as a lick and it means all my focus is on that application, not the desktop or anytihng else i nthe background.

5. This one is minor, but its still a factor. So much good software for OS X costs money.

Maybe one day I'll be able to afford a Mac Pro.
1. A $3000 Mac Pro would last you years. Its more than likely that the next versions of OSX would run on it as well. You'd only have to change the graphics card for your gaming.

2. VLC ?

3. Cmd + Tab ? Quicksilver ? F3 ? Must be months since I last clicked on the Dock, and that was probably to show the wife something.

4. I found this frustrating at first, for about 10 seconds. You resize the window for your app, and it always opens at that size. Don't understand what the prob is here.

5. lmfao. A well known John McEnroe quote comes to mind.
     
mduell
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Jul 27, 2008, 06:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno View Post
That's nuts. Spyware is so, SO easy to avoid if you're not stupid. Sure, if you download LimeWire and click every link you get in your email and click the ads that show up on various shady sites promising "FREE MP3s!!!," you might get some spyware.

But if you're an intelligent computer user, it'll never happen. Among Windows users who know what they're doing, almost none have problems with viruses or spyware. I've had a Windows machine for six months and I'm very happy with it. Zero spyware. I also did a poll at Ars Technica about this and all but two or three respondents were the same way (no problems at all). They're all knowledgeable about computers so you're only really affected by spyware if you don't know any better.


Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno View Post
Also, I'm sorry, but that $2000 refurbished Mac Pro is pretty stupid. You can build your own PC with an Intel Core 2 Quad, 4 GB of RAM, a 1 TB hard drive, and a GeForce 8800GT for half the price of that Mac Pro. Maybe the Mac Pro has some advantages that make it worth that much money, but as far as I can tell, the main thing that drives up the price is the Xeon processors (which are way more expensive than Core processors; I'm not sure why).
Xeons have a higher price because people are willing to pay more for them; people who need more than one CPU socket or more than 8GB RAM.
I thought about buying a Mac Pro a couple months ago but I ended up building a PC instead. Saved about 65-70% just counting the parts and about 50% after adding the value of my time. For what I do with it, the performance of my machine and the hypothetical Mac Pro I'd buy is about the same.

Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Would you say downloading random, unknown software to try it out is a risky behavior
Depends where you do it; foolish in your host OS, but fine in a throw-away virtual machine. Of course, with OS X that really isn't an option for the average user.
     
Arkham_c
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Jul 28, 2008, 12:32 PM
 
Apple could definitely use another machine in its lineup. The problem is, that machine seems to be different depending on who you ask, and we don't want to end up with a Gil Amelio-era Mac lineup.

For me, that machine would be all the power of the Mac Pro without the expandability. I want a fast multi-processor, multi-core machine and an upgradeable video card. I don't care about slots. Right now I have an original Mac Pro (2x2.66 Xeon) that has served me well for a couple of years and likely will continue to do so for 3-5 years to come, but I have never used any of the slots in it and likely never will. I upgraded the video card and added some RAM, and will probably do both again in the future. Apple doesn't address the "pro-sumer" market anymore.

As to the OP and going back to Windows, you should do whatever works for you. I know that I personally hate XP and find myself far less productive there. At work I switched to Linux to avoid using Windows and have been a lot happier.
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sek929
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Jul 28, 2008, 12:36 PM
 
See, I want the opposite.

A Core 2 Duo (single proc.) powered tower with all the same expandability of the current Mac Pros. Not everyone needs 8 cores, but being able to throw a heap of drives and cards in over the years has its draw.
     
King Bob On The Cob
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Jul 28, 2008, 12:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Full-Auto View Post
That's odd, their website pops up quickly for me.

I agree though, it's time it goes paid. That would make an already outstanding product even better.
If I may say so myself, it went the better route and went open source.

Try the latest alphas. They're fantastic.

http://code.google.com/p/blacktree-a...downloads/list
     
juusan
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Jul 28, 2008, 01:04 PM
 
sounds like a well thought out argument. different operating systems work for different people. good luck! I supported windows machines for years, and finally made the switch to mac when I just couldn't bear it anymore. but you're going at it with a fresh outlook and no MS bitterness, so it might work.
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Luca Rescigno
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Jul 28, 2008, 01:50 PM
 
I think the main thing about choosing an OS is that not everyone puts as much value in the OS itself. Remember that it is only one of many parts of a computer. You also have the hardware and the other software.

If you spend 90% of your time using a program that isn't an operating system, like a web browser, MP3 player, game, multimedia editor, email reader, or chat program, then is the OS really that important? That's how I like to think of it at least. Of course, your OS determines what programs you can run, so if you really need one piece of software or another you may have to go with a particular OS. That's why Windows is the only option for gamers, and Macs are such an attractive option for filmmakers. It's not entirely because gamers love Windows or filmmakers love OS X, but the software available drives them to one platform or another.

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lpkmckenna
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Jul 28, 2008, 04:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno View Post
If you spend 90% of your time using a program that isn't an operating system, like a web browser, MP3 player, game, multimedia editor, email reader, or chat program, then is the OS really that important?
Whenever I'm pitching the Mac to people (not that often, actually), I will usually focus on system-wide capabilities. People are really impressed by the Character Palette, the Dictionary/Thesaurus (with its cool pop-up palette), the word completion with opt-esc, Expose, QuickLook, Spotlight, etc. I find it hard to function without these things in Windows.
     
Luca Rescigno
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Jul 28, 2008, 05:18 PM
 
OS X has some nice things but I don't find it hard to function without them at all.

Character Palette: Windows has this too. Start, Run, type "charmap." You also have alt-key shortcuts, which are both good and bad. Good because you have access to way more special characters than you get from the Mac shortcuts, bad because you have to remember numbers and they're totally unintuitive unlike the Mac ones. "Option-e-e" and shortcuts like it are nice.

Dictionary/Thesaurus: Admittedly a very nice feature and I wish Windows came with one included. I do have Dictionary.com and Thesaurus.com in my Firefox search bar though so it's not a huge issue. I never used the pop up palette.

Word completion: Useless, and I mean that literally - I cannot find a use for this feature. It's sort of nifty the first time you see it, but I can't see the point. If you know how to spell a word, it's faster just to spell it. If you don't, then there's no guarantee it'll show up for you. And the only way for it to be able to complete a word for you is if you hit the key combo when you're already several letters into it, otherwise it gives you a huge list. So I don't really understand the use.

Expose: An okay feature especially if you have a small screen. Windows' "answer" to Expose is pretty inadequate as well. But I find window management just fine with the combination of the taskbar and Alt-Tab. There are also several Windows-key shortcuts such as hiding all windows by pressing Windows-D.

QuickLook: I guess it's sort of like Windows Picture and Fax Viewer. The large amount of great image viewing and sorting software on Windows overshadows the few advantages the Mac OS has in this area. Irfanview is another good image viewing utility.

Spotlight: Vista has this. There's a search field that is automatically selected when you open the Start menu. So just hit the Win key and start typing. It doesn't only search programs, it searches all your files too. Very useful, and this was a feature that is definitely missing in XP.

So all in all I agree that OS X has some nice features, but I don't think any of those things are major enough to justify which OS you're sticking with either way. I see the choice of OS as being a natural result of an analysis of your situation. And when it's someone using Photoshop 95% of the time they're at their computer, it doesn't really matter. For casual home users, it's a bit different. But am not swayed much by gimmicks (however useful they may be).

"That's Mama Luigi to you, Mario!" *wheeze*
     
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Jul 28, 2008, 06:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by tinkered View Post
I completely agree. I don't need a server, but I do need desktop that can handle to internal drives, a graphics card that needs a second slot for cooling, and 4 GB of RAM. Write now, this machine is a PC because it best suites my cost/benefit expectations.
I used to have a PC and I got rid of it, simply because it was too big of an investment.

When I built it, it cost me around $600-$700. It had a mid-range graphics card (ATI X700), a crap mobo, a crap case, 1 gigabyte of RAM, and a decent processor (Pentium 4 3.2 ghz). First, World of Warcraft maxxed out the RAM, so I had to add more RAM for $100. Then the heat sink fell off the controller on the shoddy motherboard, and the motherboard fried itself. I bought a new Intel motherboard for $300. Then the case began to break down, so I bought a new one for $100.

Now I was $1000-$1100 in on a PC that was about a year old, still had a mid range GPU and was 32 bit. I sold the thing for around $700 to at least get my initial investment back (right before I sold it, the case broke again, but the guy I was selling it to didn't care because he was parting it.)

I bought a Mac Pro as my desktop, and couldn't be happier. As a student, you should be able to pick up a 4 core version for around $2000. Given that my PC was not as high end as the Mac Pros of the time, but was already costing me north of $1k, it was a good investment.

PC gaming is dying anyway. If you're big into gaming, just buy an XBox.
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Jul 28, 2008, 06:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno View Post
Spotlight: Vista has this. There's a search field that is automatically selected when you open the Start menu. So just hit the Win key and start typing. It doesn't only search programs, it searches all your files too. Very useful, and this was a feature that is definitely missing in XP.
Lucas, just a note, this feature was released for XP under the guise of Windows Search...works just like the vista one...but but not so good, crashes and looses the index alot...fyi.

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lpkmckenna
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Jul 28, 2008, 06:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno View Post
Character Palette: Windows has this too. Start, Run, type "charmap."
Are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking about the cool palette you get when you choose Special Characters from the Edit menu.
QuickLook: I guess it's sort of like Windows Picture and Fax Viewer. The large amount of great image viewing and sorting software on Windows overshadows the few advantages the Mac OS has in this area. Irfanview is another good image viewing utility.
I use QuickLook for a lot more than just image viewing. And really, I prefer image viewing with Xee or Phoenix Slides, not QuickLook.
Spotlight: Vista has this. There's a search field that is automatically selected when you open the Start menu. So just hit the Win key and start typing. It doesn't only search programs, it searches all your files too. Very useful, and this was a feature that is definitely missing in XP.
I wasn't talking about the menu item. I was talking about the system-level integration. Spotlight from within Mail or Finder or the Open File panel in any app is damn cool.
     
forumhound
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Jul 28, 2008, 10:47 PM
 
Why we are never going back to Windows:
Try this in windows: Take a backup from a failed machine, any machine make or model, laptop or desktop, and use that to replace the current contents of any machine, any make or model, laptop or desktop or alternatively just take any external drive with a backup from any machine, make or model, laptop or desktop, and boot from that instead of using the harddrive in the failed machine.
U can't.
We used to have at least one machine failure a month that caused significant down time in our once all PC studio, either from virus or other software/hardware problem, but for the past 6 months we have had ZERO downtime in our all new mac studio. That's not to say we don't have hardware failures (the macbook pro is the worst) but there is no downtime, as the TM backup can always be used elsewhere to get the job done.
Cheers,
cooocoo

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mduell
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Jul 29, 2008, 12:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by forumhound View Post
Why we are never going back to Windows:
Try this in windows: Take a backup from a failed machine, any machine make or model, laptop or desktop, and use that to replace the current contents of any machine, any make or model, laptop or desktop or alternatively just take any external drive with a backup from any machine, make or model, laptop or desktop, and boot from that instead of using the harddrive in the failed machine.
Regarding data restoring: Genie Backup Manager or NTI Backup Now can both move your accounts/settings/files from any (recentish... 2000 or better) Windows box to another. And it's not as if Migration Assitant is without issues, particularly for PPC->Intel migrations (kexts, plists, etc causing all sorts of headaches).

Regarding booting: Take a clone of a Core Duo iMac's hard drive and boot a MacBook Air off it. Or a clone of a PowerBook's hard drive and boot the Core Duo iMac off it. Naga-naga-notgonnawork.
So I guess you're never going with OS X either?

I think you should consider the right tool for the job rather than blindly sticking with one option. I've got OS X on my work laptop, Windows on my HTPC/gaming/encoding box, FreeBSD on a server, and I'd put Linux on a netbook if I had one.
     
forumhound
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Jul 29, 2008, 12:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Regarding data restoring: Genie Backup Manager or NTI Backup Now can both move your accounts/settings/files from any (recentish... 2000 or better) Windows box to another. And it's not as if Migration Assitant is without issues, particularly for PPC->Intel migrations (kexts, plists, etc causing all sorts of headaches).

Regarding booting: Take a clone of a Core Duo iMac's hard drive and boot a MacBook Air off it. Or a clone of a PowerBook's hard drive and boot the Core Duo iMac off it. Naga-naga-notgonnawork.
So I guess you're never going with OS X either?
The above does work and I've tested with 1) iMacs in leopard, 2) macbooks in leopard, and 3) macbook pros in leopard, but that's all we have at the moment.

On Genie and other products, they require far more setup afterward then using the above method in OSX, and are flat out a waste of time in XP...believe me we tried. It was far easier back then to just use Acronis for a bit-for-bit image, but if you had to go from a laptop to a desktop, forgettabout that too, it only worked on identical hardware and not even always on that.

So with a little, and I mean little, advanced planning, we have figured out an almost failsafe system of machines that prevent downtime, almost to Zero, that's why we love OSX and are never going back.

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besson3c
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Jul 29, 2008, 01:03 AM
 
I feel thankful that I don't have to buy a product like that to do something as simple as clone my system
     
CharlesS
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Jul 29, 2008, 01:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Regarding booting: Take a clone of a Core Duo iMac's hard drive and boot a MacBook Air off it. Or a clone of a PowerBook's hard drive and boot the Core Duo iMac off it. Naga-naga-notgonnawork.
Actually, those should work fine (as long as the PowerBook is running Leopard).

As weird as it sounds, my MacBook Pro will actually boot from my iMac G5's hard drive - the entire OS seems to be Universal. Going the other direction probably wouldn't work, though, because of the GUID partition format.

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forumhound
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Jul 29, 2008, 02:47 AM
 
I guess that's the heart of it Charles...the universality of of the OS and the hardware as it has evolved (is evolving). - is it by design or just a fluke - having the same company do the hardware as well as the OS has a great benefit in this way. cheers!

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forumhound
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Jul 29, 2008, 02:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I feel thankful that I don't have to buy a product like that to do something as simple as clone my system
which product besson...OSX or the myraid of backup/restore/migrate products for the PC?

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