[mitchell_pgh]

They have to update it sooner... but I'm guessing they are clearing out the older version. I find it strange that they have gone so long without a tiny bump. Even adding RAM or something trivial.

[Krusty]

Originally Posted by TiDual

Sorry, not at all intended to be patronising

I just see the "specs" argument posted a lot here, and it fails to capture a lot of what 12" PB offers. I was surprised at how the PB was notably more compact (especially the height, when open, which is critical on airplanes). Basically, I found it slightly better than the ibook, in a lot of areas ... of course, it cost is a big factor in the decision, then the iBook is still a great machine, and indeed not much worse than a PB in any single factor. Enjoy.

I've been looking at a new 12" iBook for a bit (and trying to wait on an update), but after looking at the PB 12", I am in agreement that there is more than meets the eye with it.

Here's what I was looking at:
12" ibook + $75 for 60gb hd + $50 for internal Bluetooth. = $1124

For $175 more, I could get a refurb PB that has these base requirements built-in (meaning I could actually buy a non-BTO refurb that has the config I wanted already ... I could get a refurb iBook but then I couldn't BTO it to 60gb + internal BT without expensive or warranty-voiding after market work).

After market ram is a bit of sticky issue because you'd have to toss the extra 256 in the PB to upgrade it beyond 512 but it is still worth something over the 256 built-in to the iBook.

But, assuming that you were in the market for a "butched out" iBook 12", the refurb 12" pb can be had for $175 more and would include the following upgrades:
Smaller size and much nicer case.
A core graphics capable video card NOW that can drive larger external monitors better
Real DVI out.
A 25% faster chip over a 25% faster bus with a hard drive that spins >25% faster
BT 2.0 (1.x is the only internal option with current iBooks)

All items other than the case could really "future proof" the PB for at least one more upgrade cycle over the iBook.

In other words, if you need or want more than the base model 12" iBook, then you would do very well to have a look at a refurb PB 12", you may get a lot more for the minimal price difference. Obviously, if you don't need those items, then they are a complete waste of your money.

I'm waiting on an upgrade to one or both of the model lines and will buy whatever makes most sense at that time ... new or refurb. If a new iBook has 64mb graphics and built-in BT 2.0, I'll probably go with it, otherwise I will buy a refurbed 12" PB (it will probably drop a little more in price by then).

[Voch]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

They have to update it sooner... but I'm guessing they are clearing out the older version. I find it strange that they have gone so long without a tiny bump. Even adding RAM or something trivial.

I'm guessing sales of the current models are still fairly strong. My only example to cite for that is my local CompUSA...there were lots of folks buying iBooks/PowerBooks for their soon-to-be-college-student kids (I helped a few with making their Mac choice, too).

Originally Posted by Krusty

But, assuming that you were in the market for a "butched out" iBook 12", the refurb 12" pb can be had for $175 more and would include the following upgrades:

Based on specifications I would be jumping on the 12" PowerBook as my upgrade...it's not that much more cost, especially for a refurbished one. I just can't pull the trigger based on the 12" PB's percieved negatives. Questions like "do they still turn into griddles when doing CPU-intensive stuff?", "does the metal really dent?" and "is the AirPort reception crappy"? I feel I would have to baby it like I've done with my TiBook. Based on specs the 12" PB is perfect for me, but I'm leaning towards the iBook based on fear and that I don't need Bluetooth and DVI...

Voch

[brettcamp]

Originally Posted by Voch

I just can't pull the trigger based on the 12" PB's percieved negatives. Questions like "do they still turn into griddles when doing CPU-intensive stuff?", "does the metal really dent?" and "is the AirPort reception crappy"? I feel I would have to baby it like I've done with my TiBook. Based on specs the 12" PB is perfect for me, but I'm leaning towards the iBook based on fear and that I don't need Bluetooth and DVI...

Voch

As a current very satisfied PB12" owner and former iBook 12" owner, I'd say that if you don't need DVI or the larger HD (or are willing to BTO a 60 gig HD), then you probably can stick with the iBook. I think the PB heat problems have been resolved, although I don't use many CPU intensive apps. Can't speak to the dent issue because mine doesn't have any after 9 months or so, but if durability is important to you (i.e. if you travel with it a lot), the iBook is certainly more robust. Airport reception is a tad worse than my old iBook's, as is battery life. The PB keyboard is a lot better -- best I've ever used, in fact -- but the iBook's is OK. I love my Powerbook, but I'd have stuck with the iBook if I didn't need DVI and a larger HD, and if the price difference had been > the $200 I paid.

[mitchell_pgh]

<still waiting for the upgrade>

It's now a little crazy how overdue it is.

[storer]

It sure is!

[Voch]

Does the rest of the group want be to purchase a 12" iBook/1.2Ghz today? That will assure us an update soon.

Voch

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by Voch

Does the rest of the group want be to purchase a 12" iBook/1.2Ghz today? That will assure us an update soon.

Voch

I keep eyeing the 12" PB... saying "just wait... just wait"... I think this is Apple's tactic. Just another way to sell more PowerBooks. If they released an iBook now, I'm sure PowerBook sales would take a little hit.

Oh well... I wouldn't be surprised if Apple came out with a "new" version (that's $50 cheaper)

[Voch]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

I keep eyeing the 12" PB... saying "just wait... just wait"... I think this is Apple's tactic. Just another way to sell more PowerBooks. If they released an iBook now, I'm sure PowerBook sales would take a little hit.

Oh well... I wouldn't be surprised if Apple came out with a "new" version (that's $50 cheaper)

Again...the 12" PB is PERFECT except for the presumed heat thing and the aluminum case (scratches...would I have to baby it?). My TiBook gets fairly warm but if it were any warmer I'd hate it. Based on specifications I'd have a 12" PowerBook right now...having its specifications in an iBook case would be better...

[Superchicken]

My guess August unveiling... perhaps sept for Apple Expo Paris.

[Krusty]

Originally Posted by Voch

Based on specifications I would be jumping on the 12" PowerBook as my upgrade...it's not that much more cost, especially for a refurbished one. I just can't pull the trigger based on the 12" PB's percieved negatives. Questions like "do they still turn into griddles when doing CPU-intensive stuff?", "does the metal really dent?" and "is the AirPort reception crappy"? I feel I would have to baby it like I've done with my TiBook. Based on specs the 12" PB is perfect for me, but I'm leaning towards the iBook based on fear and that I don't need Bluetooth and DVI...

Voch

Well, to complicate matters, the 12" 1.5 refurb is gone from Apple store now. Instead, the previous gen 1.33 refurb is up there for $1099. At that price it includes a 60gb 4200 rpm, BT 1.1, AE, 64mb graphics card. That machine is actually CHEAPER than a new BTO iBook with the same specs and their 'Learn more' page states they'll throw in 10.4 and iLife '05 ... so no loss there

Barring some outrageous update to the iBook in the very near future, I think this is the way I'm going to go because I do anticipate buying a DVI LCD eventually and built in BT, > 30gb hard drive, and Tiger/Core Graphics support are absolute must-have items for whatever I buy.

[FenderGuy585]

Would it not be expected of Apple to put out a new ibook before september? Students are looking for their computer before school starts.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by FenderGuy585

Would it not be expected of Apple to put out a new ibook before september? Students are looking for their computer before school starts.

It would be expected, but that doesn't mean Apple will do it.

[Ji Eun]

The lack of a recent update bucks the trend to such an extent that it's impossible to say when now.
But in terms of specs for new college students, i don't see the iBook losing its competitive edge versus wintel laptops in the same price range. The current model still has legs if you compare it to other offerings in the mid-end laptop market.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by Voch

Again...the 12" PB is PERFECT except for the presumed heat thing and the aluminum case (scratches...would I have to baby it?). My TiBook gets fairly warm but if it were any warmer I'd hate it. Based on specifications I'd have a 12" PowerBook right now...having its specifications in an iBook case would be better...

I don't think the 12" is perfect for me. I don't need the power or most of the features that make the PB worth the extra money. Plus, I just need the thing to last 2 - 3 years. Then it's an Intel for me.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

It would be expected, but that doesn't mean Apple will do it.

I don't see Apple waiting until September. Mid July at the latest unless they want to lose sales.

[storer]

Let's hope.

[teney7]

I agree with mitchell_pgh

[Voch]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

I don't think the 12" is perfect for me. I don't need the power or most of the features that make the PB worth the extra money. Plus, I just need the thing to last 2 - 3 years. Then it's an Intel for me.

I'd only grab a refurb one, personally. That 5400RPM drive would be nice if not just a placebo.

Voch

[toffe]

In the beginning of this forum, i said that i had ordered my first mac ever.
Well, i haven't received it yet.

At the retailstore they said that the deliverytime is 2-3 weeks because it was a custom iBook.
today it has gone 3 weeks, i called them and it turned out that the state of the order hadn't changed at apple, so it was still not shipping. So they renewed the order as "urgent" and said that it will come within 2 weeks.

And now is closer than ever until an new iBook model will arrive. It feels a bit weird.

[toffe]

Aaaarghh!!!

[MathiasDK]

Originally Posted by toffe

Aaaarghh!!!

Cancel the order! You have waited this long and some say that new iBooks will be launched the 7th of july... Just wait one more week is my advice!

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by MathiasDK

Cancel the order! You have waited this long and some say that new iBooks will be launched the 7th of july... Just wait one more week is my advice!

I would do the same thing. You have waited too long.

What special things did you get?

[theTechyDork]

I totally agree. I am thinking since the iPod Line was refreshed and 4.9 was released, no new iPod will be released on July 7th. On July 7th, there is supposed to be some big thing happen. I am thinking, either a Mac Mini update or the long awaited iBook update. Either one would be nice. Definately wait and see.

[teney7]

Any chance that iBook replaces PB as the marquee line of NB?

[ink]

Maybe the next iBook will be a Pentium-M machine? Hmmm?

[tomocoo]

- iPod Phone is set to be released soon (after the Black RAZR which launched today) this is most likely a part of the July 7 happenings.

- El Reg and a lot of other places have been reporting how asustek got the contract for new widescreen iBooks


Maybe they both get launched on the 7th??? Would Apple do the iPod phone and the iBook at once?

[theTechyDork]

I don't see why they would have a problem doing that. Where did you hear about widescreen iBooks?!

[tomocoo]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/06...en_ibook_deal/

[iDaver]

The phone that's expected is not an iPod phone, it's a Fairplay AAC enabled Motorola phone that will likely hold about a hundred songs. Pretty ho-hum, IMO. I'm guessing we'll see speed bumped iBooks and Mac minis on July 7. Is there any confirmation of where/when this rumored July 7 event is happening?

[tomocoo]

It's going to be branded as an "iTunes phone", as you can clearly see here (real photos of a white phone with iTunes software running that syncs with desktop itunes):
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000887049175/

July 7 happenings:
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1148

[iDaver]

Originally Posted by tomocoo

It's going to be branded as an "iTunes phone", as you can clearly see here (real photos of a white phone with iTunes software running that syncs with desktop itunes):
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000887049175/

July 7 happenings:
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1148

Thanks for the first link. Your second link fails to make anything clearer than mud.

[theTechyDork]

same here, iDaver. the iTunes phone doesn't look so great. like any other cell. so is the iTunes phone released now cause it has a name a pics?

[mitchell_pgh]

You could say the same thing about the iPod... "just like any other MP3 player"

The trick is the iPod has great software... I'm going to say, the amazing thing with the iPhone will be the software interaction.

[alimunnik]

Freescale has announced that the next G4 chip will be ready in October, and will feature a 1.80 GHz speed and a 200 MHz fsb. Assuming that the Intel chip will not yet be ready, this G4 will probably find its way into an upgraded PB. Tis doesn't allow for much of an iBook upgrade; perhaps a 1.5 Ghz PC and 512 RAM and not until autumn.

[Krusty]

Well, if the Powerbook isn't going to turn until October, there's still no reason an iBook can turn to 1.42/ 1.5 in July. The last iBook update in October came about 2.5 months prior to the PB update on Jan 31st and the top speed iBook matched the bottom speed PB (1.33ghz) for that whole time. Besides, Apple would really be shooting itself in the foot, IMHO, to lead into back-to-school season with a 9 month old iBook that doesn't even meet minimum spec for full utilization of Tiger.

Who knows though. Maybe they are just too bunched-up spec-wise to do anything much with it now. Definite bummer

[iDaver]

Originally Posted by Krusty

Who knows though. Maybe they are just too bunched-up spec-wise to do anything much with it now. Definite bummer

Even so, that seems no reason not to have a RAM, HD and GPU bump. iBooks have always been bumped about every six months. It's time...this week.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by iDaver

Even so, that seems no reason not to have a RAM, HD and GPU bump. iBooks have always been bumped about every six months. It's time...this week.

I sure hope... I'm ready to buy.

[Voch]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

I sure hope... I'm ready to buy.

May I ask what hardware you're running now Mac-wise?

I'm almost ready to give up and just add an 802.11g PC card to my TiBook. It's been a fantastic machine but I've had the hardware-upgrade itch for several months now. My concerns with my TiBook are my AppleCare running out in February, wireless reception/speed (WPA slows down the 802.11b to about half of what my cable modem service can do...I know this because when I use an Ethernet cable downloads speed up considerably), and overall speed (the beachball shows up for some tasks...I've been offloading some stuff to my Athlon but, of course, would rather do 'em on my Mac).

If Apple wows me with a iBook with RAM of 512MB default/1.5GB capacity (I have 1GB on my *current* machine, so 1.25GB on the current iBooks isn't much of a bump), a processor speed bump, and a nice video chip upgrade (Radeon 9600) I'd be closer to getting that iBook as an Intel-transition machine...

Voch

[Dr. Awesome]

I need a laptop for school.

PowerBook or iBook, whicher one is the best value after each is refreshed.

Oh... and I don't care about the Intel versions coming out. I'm going to be doing software development in XCode, and fortunately I can compile for both platforms

[mitchell_pgh]

I have a 733 G4 tower at home. I just want a low end portable Mac. I've looked at the PB, and I just don't need the power, extras or added price. I'm fine with the smaller HD, single screen and keyboard (I am one of the few that actually like it).

I plan on maxing out the RAM and calling it a day.

[treebytron]

I'm also waiting for any kind of ibook update. I've been waiting since the spring when there were rumors of updates. I really badly need a new computer (still using g3 imac 500mhz) and I need one for college. uuugghhhh I wish they would just drop the prices.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by treebytron

I'm also waiting for any kind of ibook update. I've been waiting since the spring when there were rumors of updates. I really badly need a new computer (still using g3 imac 500mhz) and I need one for college. uuugghhhh I wish they would just drop the prices.

No kidding... this is CRAZY. Only a fool would buy now... nearly FOUR months over their normal update/change cycle.

Days Since Update: 262 (Average = 158)

[alimunnik]

263 days (and counting) since the last iBook upgrade! A real "American Tragedy", if there ever was one.
You could say that the pigeons have come home to roost. After years of playing Motorola (Freescale) and IBM off against each other, it looks like Steve Jobs is now getting his come-uppance. Recent announcements by both companies illustrate that they can build faster, more power efficient chips, but on their own terms.
Now with a laptop compatible G5 chip appearing almost "Deus ex Machina", the plot thickens even more. Whose chip will appear in what Apple product, and more pertinently, when? I've been meaning to buy a Superdrive iBook and camcorder for my son, but with only 256 RAM and 32 VRAM, he might never speak to me again.
And for all those "faithful followers" who have expressed indifference as to whose chip is installed in their Apples, I have only one word: JUDAS!!!
IBM and Freescale make great products. The G5 is a thing of beauty and the dual core potentiality of the G4 hasn't even been scratched yet. I wouldn't trade my 1.5 GHZ PB or my 2 GHz iMac for ANY PC product reposing out there on retailer's shelves.
The other day I visited a friend who had been singing the praises of his recently acquired "Centrino Inside" laptop. After putting it through its paces for an hour or so it became obvious that it wasn't suitable for anything much more taxing than dispatching e-mails. I stumbled home in a stupor and I shall be sending my unfortunate friend one of those "Deepest Sympathy and Condolences" cards.
I shudder at the thought of taking delivery of a new Apple with one of those abominable "Intel Inside" stickers festooned on the front. All the snob appeal of owning an Apple will be lost. From being the lone wolf prowling the moonlit hills and dales, Apple will become just another bleating Wintel sheep confined to his fold.
Comparing an Apple-IBM duet to an Apple-Intel one will be like comparing Rodgers and Hart to Rodgers and Hammerstein (in other words, there is no comparison, really).
Please, Steve!; - say it ain't so!

[Ji Eun]

erm.... >_>

[brettcamp]

Well, I agree with aliminnuk about rodgers & hart being superior to rodgers & hammerstein, but as for the rest...
This whole judas thing makes it sound like the business/tech decision about which chip to put in a computer is some kind of moral issue. hey, this is capitalism -- morality isn't really part of the deal, short of any allegations of breach of contract or other violation of law or duty. the apple CEO's job is to choose the product and producer that can best accommodate apple's product plans. For some years, that company was Motorola. Then things changed, and IBM was best. Then things changed again, as they always do, and it's SJ's job to figure which company can best do what Apple needs under present and immediate future conditions, not 15 years ago.

"Playing companies off against each other" is what the marketplace is all about -- it's called competition. I'm no Republican (quite the contrary), but we're talking about a business decision made above board and legally, not some kind of deception or betrayal. Apple or any other company is always looking around to see which suppliers can produce the best product at the best price etc etc, whether it's screens or hard drives or keyboards or those little feet that stick on to the bottom of our Powerbooks. why should chips be any different?

I mean, what possible reason could SJ have to pick an inferior producer? Times change and corporate strategies and quality change. Apparently, IBM has decided it's more profitable for it to devote more of its resources to producing chips for gaming etc. That's fine, but it doesn't square with Apple's needs for the next few years. So apple picks a company whose strategy meshes best with its own. that might change again in a few years.

In fact, the best part of all this is apple not being held hostage to a single chip producer beyond the useful life of that alliance. I hope they'll keep compiling OSX for various chip platforms, so that in 2010 or whenever, if AMD or IBM or freescale's plans fit Apple's better, Apple can go with whichever company is best for Apple's consumers. As one of them, I'd consider SJ to be derelict in his duty if he put blind conservatism (i.e. sticking with the status quo) over bringing us better products at cheaper prices.

[Voch]

Well, my cousin from NYC visited the family today and he's still waiting for me to make a decision on selling my TiBook to him (something I mentioned in passing in December). C'mon Apple! Make me a dream iBook! 512MB base RAM, nice speed bump, BTO 5400 RPM HD...hmm...sounds almost like the current 12" PowerBook...

Voch

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by alimunnik

263 days (and counting) since the last iBook upgrade! A real "American Tragedy", if there ever was one.
You could say that the pigeons have come home to roost. After years of playing Motorola (Freescale) and IBM off against each other, it looks like Steve Jobs is now getting his come-uppance. Recent announcements by both companies illustrate that they can build faster, more power efficient chips, but on their own terms.
Now with a laptop compatible G5 chip appearing almost "Deus ex Machina", the plot thickens even more. Whose chip will appear in what Apple product, and more pertinently, when? I've been meaning to buy a Superdrive iBook and camcorder for my son, but with only 256 RAM and 32 VRAM, he might never speak to me again.
And for all those "faithful followers" who have expressed indifference as to whose chip is installed in their Apples, I have only one word: JUDAS!!!
IBM and Freescale make great products. The G5 is a thing of beauty and the dual core potentiality of the G4 hasn't even been scratched yet. I wouldn't trade my 1.5 GHZ PB or my 2 GHz iMac for ANY PC product reposing out there on retailer's shelves.
The other day I visited a friend who had been singing the praises of his recently acquired "Centrino Inside" laptop. After putting it through its paces for an hour or so it became obvious that it wasn't suitable for anything much more taxing than dispatching e-mails. I stumbled home in a stupor and I shall be sending my unfortunate friend one of those "Deepest Sympathy and Condolences" cards.
I shudder at the thought of taking delivery of a new Apple with one of those abominable "Intel Inside" stickers festooned on the front. All the snob appeal of owning an Apple will be lost. From being the lone wolf prowling the moonlit hills and dales, Apple will become just another bleating Wintel sheep confined to his fold.
Comparing an Apple-IBM duet to an Apple-Intel one will be like comparing Rodgers and Hart to Rodgers and Hammerstein (in other words, there is no comparison, really).
Please, Steve!; - say it ain't so!

The simple fact is, PPC hasn't delivered.

Amazing technology and good idea: Yes
Has consistently outperformed Intel/AMD: No

We have had a few times where the top of the line G4/G5 has outperformed an Intel chip, but the middle and lower end Mac systems aren't even in the ballpark of the Intel side.

It's funny that you mentioned the video card of the Mac being low end. With this switch, we should be able to get much higher end graphics cards as they won't need to be designed special for Apple (off the shelf vs. custom ROMs).

I'm not going to bash Mac on Intel until Apple gives me a reason to do so.

[alimunnik]

Atta boy, brettcamp! With Capitalist apologists such as yourself holding the fort in the great North West, the George Bushes and Dick Cheneys of this world should sleep a lot sounder tonight.
But I ask you this: If both your favourite French chefs were temporarily out of Ardennes truffles, would you repair that night to your local McDonald's for your evening repast?
Why should Apple be in some kind of cut throat competition with it's chip suppliers? Why can't they sit down and resolve outstanding issues?
A company like IBM certainly has the capacity to turn out products with the best of them. Perhaps certain individuals need to work on their inter-personnel skills. It seems somewhat childish that big surprises are unleashed at news conferences and we faithful Apple followers are treated to the spectacle of SJ grinning like a Cheshire cat in a ballroom festooned with Intel logos.
In the meantime, while the elephants fight, we are left in the lurch as to the foreseeable future. I desperately need a new laptop, but not one that can barely run the latest OS, and some sceptics see nothing better on the horizon until things are sorted out at HQ. A certain lack of imagination seems at work here.

[iDaver]

alimunnik, you make some good points but imagination doesn't make a faster CPU; money does. It sounds like IBM and Apple were unwilling to invest the money in development of faster PPC chips. Apparently Intel was able to convince Apple it could do better within a year.

I think it's bad that iBooks are stuck where they are. Why Apple can't bump the RAM, hard drive and graphics and call that an upgrade, I don't know. I can only guess they're holding back for something better. Chances are most people will be disappointed with whatever it is.