Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Romney select Paul Ryan

Romney select Paul Ryan
Thread Tools
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 03:45 AM
 
News outlets are reporting Mitt Romney has selected Paul Ryan as his running mate. Rubio, Pawlenty, Christie, and Portman were his short list. MSNBC was too busy with it's usual weekend fare of life in prison shows last night. I always like to see their take on stories. I'm sure Mr Ed and Rachel Madcow will be frothing at the mouth at this choice.
     
Dork.
Professional Poster
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 04:05 AM
 
Maybe things will get more interesting now. "zombie eyed granny starver" already has 20k hits on Google. And the sad thing is, given what the candidates have been slinging lately, that may actually raise the level of discourse in the campaign.
     
kimosABE
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 04:08 AM
 
Good choice from everything I've heard on Fox News and everything I've read on the (right wing) internet news sources.

Dick Morris says Ryan reminds him of Bill Clinton in that Ryan's mind is so agile and quick. Morris said trying to keep up with Ryan almost leaves himintellectually out of breath!

I like that!
     
Dork.
Professional Poster
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 04:22 AM
 
Actually, I think Jack Kemp is the better comparison. Especially since Ryan now has the task of bailing out an extremely, extremely boring Republican Presidential candidate.
     
kimosABE
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 05:35 AM
 
Did anyone else hear Romney introduce Paul Ryan as the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan? I did and I know millions of others did as well. But you heard it here first!
     
Dork.
Professional Poster
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 06:02 AM
 
I am not listening: I was too busy participating in another Epic™ thread.

But the more I think about it, the more I think that this pick is less about the 2012 election. Romney and his friends in the GOP elite must be thinking that, win or lose, they are grooming a young Presidential candidate for 2016 (if Romney loses) and 2020 (if Romney wins in 2012 and runs in 2016). One of the things that was quite clear in this primary season was that Romney won by default: none of the other challengers were really deemed Presidential enough to vote for. Ryan could be that guy going forward.

I distinctly remember the train wreck of a Democratic Convention in 2004, watching John Kerry gain a Presidential nomination by default (and the fact that he was in Vietnam). There was a young State Senator who was running for the US Senate who gave a stirring speech. My wife and I looked at each other and said "Why are we nominating that bozo? This guy is much better". Presidental candidates don't appear overnight, they get groomed for the job.
     
kimosABE
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 06:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dork. View Post
I am not listening: I was too busy participating in another Epic™ thread.
But the more I think about it, the more I think that this pick is less about the 2012 election. Romney and his friends in the GOP elite must be thinking that, win or lose, they are grooming a young Presidential candidate for 2016 (if Romney loses) and 2020 (if Romney wins in 2012 and runs in 2016). One of the things that was quite clear in this primary season was that Romney won by default: none of the other challengers were really deemed Presidential enough to vote for. Ryan could be that guy going forward.
I distinctly remember the train wreck of a Democratic Convention in 2004, watching John Kerry gain a Presidential nomination by default (and the fact that he was in Vietnam). There was a young State Senator who was running for the US Senate who gave a stirring speech. My wife and I looked at each other and said "Why are we nominating that bozo? This guy is much better". Presidental candidates don't appear overnight, they get groomed for the job.
I, too, remember Barack Obama's speech at the convention. But we have learned that just because someone delivers a great speech doesn't mean they are ready or able to lead. How about Brian Williams, Scott Pelley or Anderson Cooper for POTUS?

     
Chongo  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 07:31 AM
 
Ryan at the Obamacare hearings.

[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPxMZ1WdINs[/VIDEO]
     
ebuddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 09:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by kimosABE View Post
Did anyone else hear Romney introduce Paul Ryan as the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan? I did and I know millions of others did as well. But you heard it here first!
I heard him introduce Ryan as the next Vice President of the United States.
ebuddy
     
kimosABE
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 11:35 AM
 
Flashback: Obama Introduces Biden as "Next President"
August 11, 2012


Lefties are chuckling over Mitt Romney's inadvertent introduction of Paul Ryan as "the next President of the United States," only to laughingly and self-deprecatingly correct himself moments later. The great Barack Obama would never make such a silly mistake -- especially at such an important moment -- right? Here's Obama introducing his Vice Presidential selection for the first time in 2008:
http://m.townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2012/08/11/flashback_obama_introduces_biden_as_next_president
     
hyteckit
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 02:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by kimosABE View Post
http://m.townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2012/08/11/flashback_obama_introduces_biden_as_next_president
Difference between night and day.

Pres. Obama correctly himself before even finishing the sentence.
Mitt Romney didn't have a clue until minutes later when someone told him.

That's like catching your own mistaken during an exam and having the exam returned to you with the mistakes corrected by the teacher.

Obama: A
Romney: F
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
kimosABE
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 04:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Difference between night and day.
Pres. Obama correctly himself before even finishing the sentence.
Mitt Romney didn't have a clue until minutes later when someone told him.
That's like catching your own mistaken during an exam and having the exam returned to you with the mistakes corrected by the teacher.
Obama: A
Romney: F
Maybe. But I'm sure you'll agree with me that this is all a tempest in a teapot, right?
     
Wiskedjak
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Calgary
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 04:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I heard him introduce Ryan as the next Vice President of the United States.
I just saw it on the news. Clearly said "President". Whatever, though ... minor flub.
     
kimosABE
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 05:03 PM
 
I was watching the ABC World News With David Muir tonite and they did a short story of how VP candidate, Rep. Paul Ryan tricked the press into thinking he'd gone back inside his home when in reality he'd gone to meet with Gov. Romney in VA. The remarkable thing is when, after dark...and assuming the Ryan's had gone to bed for the night, one of the reporters from the many who had assembled outside the Ryan home to cover his possible choice as Mitt's running mate, knocked on the door. Possibly waking the family up out of a well needed rest.

What jerks.

I would let that guy know something if they'd done that to me!
     
ebuddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 06:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by kimosABE View Post
Did anyone else hear Romney introduce Paul Ryan as the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan? I did and I know millions of others did as well. But you heard it here first!
I missed the first rally, my bad.
ebuddy
     
ebuddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 06:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
I just saw it on the news. Clearly said "President". Whatever, though ... minor flub.
My bad. I missed the first rally.
ebuddy
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Zip, Boom, Bam
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 07:30 PM
 
Not a bad choice.

The well of hatred that's already overflowing from the left tells me that this guy would be good for the country. I wish Romney was right, and the two of them would switch places, Ryan for President, Romney for Vice. It would be infinitely more interesting.
     
kimosABE
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 10:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I missed the first rally, my bad.
I, too, am sorry I couldn't have been there in person, ebuddy. After a day - long session of getting adjusted to him and becoming somewhat versed in paulryania I'm convinced I missed out BIG TIME by not being there.

This guy is a STUD!

He is going to rock our collective worlds.

In a good...no, in a GREAT way!
     
kimosABE
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 11:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
Not a bad choice.
The well of hatred that's already overflowing from the left tells me that this guy would be good for the country. I wish Romney was right, and the two of them would switch places, Ryan for President, Romney for Vice. It would be infinitely more interesting.
A part of me felt that way, too. The Ward & Beaver Cleaver part of me. I know that Beaver was the entertaining one, but I never forget who was banging June every other night and then going to work every day and dispensing sage fatherly wisdom at the dinner table.

Without Hugh Beaumont everything would be messed up.

BTW, when thinking about Mitt and Paul today I got a mental 'whiff' of Gene Kelley & Donald O'Connor.

Anyone else?
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 11:05 PM
 
Abe, tell us more about Ward and Beaver Cleaver please?
     
kimosABE
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 11:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Abe, tell us more about Ward and Beaver Cleaver please? 
Ward loved that boy like nobody's business. As for young Theodore, he pined for the lovely Miss Landers, his school teacher. But, when he rifled through Wally's drawers looking for a Sheik, (which didn't need to be ribbed for her pleasure as Beaver was a real ladies boy), he found nothing.
     
hyteckit
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 11:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by kimosABE View Post
I, too, am sorry I couldn't have been there in person, ebuddy. After a day - long session of getting adjusted to him and becoming somewhat versed in paulryania I'm convinced I missed out BIG TIME by not being there.
This guy is a STUD!
He is going to rock our collective worlds.
In a good...no, in a GREAT way!
Sounds like you are getting a hard on for Paul Ryan.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 11:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by kimosABE View Post

Ward loved that boy like nobody's business. As for young Theodore, he pined for the lovely Miss Landers, his school teacher. But, when he rifled through Wally's drawers looking for a Sheik, (which didn't need to be ribbed for her pleasure as Beaver was a real ladies boy), he found nothing.
You really have a thing for old TV shows, don't you? I'm assuming this is an old TV show, because:


     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 11, 2012, 11:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post


Sounds like you are getting a hard on for Paul Ryan.
He's a STUD!
     
Waragainstsleep
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 03:48 AM
 
That bunny clearly has two pancakes on its head.

Liberals hiding more spending no doubt.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Dork.
Professional Poster
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 05:13 AM
 
The second pancake is really a government handout....
     
Wiskedjak
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Calgary
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 07:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Sounds like you are getting a hard on for Paul Ryan.
It's probably 'cause of his tweets
https://twitter.com/PaulRyanGosling
     
kimosABE
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 07:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Sounds like you are getting a hard on for Paul Ryan.
You are right. He is an expert with the accounting/finance/budget stuff. He's an avid hunter. He's Catholic. He's got a lovely family. And everyone seems to like and respect him.

Heck yeah.
     
kimosABE
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 07:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
You really have a thing for old TV shows, don't you? I'm assuming this is an old TV show, because:

Well, you asked for it.
     
kimosABE
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 07:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
That bunny clearly has two pancakes on its head.
Liberals hiding more spending no doubt.
That's funny!
     
kimosABE
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 07:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dork. View Post
The second pancake is really a government handout....
Hahaha! Or maybe the second pancake is the worst economy since the Great Depression.
     
kimosABE
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 08:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
It's probably 'cause of his tweets
https://twitter.com/PaulRyanGosling
Funny tweets!
     
Atheist
Mac Elite
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Back in the Good Ole US of A
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 08:45 AM
 
I appreciate his fiscal policy but he's about as far right as they come when it comes to social issues. That's a little scary.
     
chabig
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 02:50 PM
 
     
Snow-i
Professional Poster
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 03:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by chabig View Post
Uhh, you are aware that that is the Onion?
     
OldManMac
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: I don't know anymore!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 03:57 PM
 
Great choice! Now it's Obama's election to lose. One thing the Republicans apparently haven't figured out yet is that Americans love their entitlements (even conservative ones), and you tell people that you're going to cut their Social Security (which us baby boomers have paid into for decades), or their Medicaid, and you're going to find out how to lose an election rather handily. Ryan also was for the auto bailouts, and his record on government spending is not something a conservative would brag about! This is awesome! I'm no fan of Obama, but, seeing as how we have once again the choice of a lesser of two evils, Obama's headed back to the White House!
Why is there always money for war, but none for education?
     
lpkmckenna
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 06:10 PM
 
I'd like to congratulate Romney on destroying his own campaign by selecting an ultra-right wing kook for VP.

Only an utter kook would "fix" Social Security by replacing it with vouchers.

EDIT: Mitt Romney has selected a running-mate who wants to reduce capital gains taxes from 14% to ZERO PERCENT. In other words, Romney wants to make those rumours of zero federal taxes paid by himself into verifiable truth! Any hope of seeing Rmoney as anything other than a selfish d0uchebag has been completely erased with this VP-candidate pick.

I can't wait for the Obama campaign ads.
     
Wiskedjak
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Calgary
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 06:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Uhh, you are aware that that is the Onion?
Sure. But has Obama denied it yet?!?!?
     
chabig
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 07:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
Great choice! Now it's Obama's election to lose.
I'm so glad you're willing to blame Obama for his loss. After election day, I expect most Democrats will be looking to place blame elsewhere.
     
chabig
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 07:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Uhh, you are aware that that is the Onion?
The Onion - America's Finest News Source. It says so right in their logo.
     
lpkmckenna
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 07:44 PM
 
I think the Romney/Ryan campaign should adopt the symbol once used by another great American rightwing nut-bar:

4960/width/350/height/700[/IMG]
     
kimosABE
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 08:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
Great choice! Now it's Obama's election to lose. One thing the Republicans apparently haven't figured out yet is that Americans love their entitlements (even conservative ones), and you tell people that you're going to cut their Social Security (which us baby boomers have paid into for decades), or their Medicaid, and you're going to find out how to lose an election rather handily. Ryan also was for the auto bailouts, and his record on government spending is not something a conservative would brag about! This is awesome! I'm no fan of Obama, but, seeing as how we have once again the choice of a lesser of two evils, Obama's headed back to the White House!
Mitt's budget plan is different than Ryan's, if I'm not mistaken, and even Ryan's plan for Medicare reform won't change AT ALL for people over the age of 56 or so. They will get exactly what they were promised and no little old ladies will be dumped off a cliff as the Democrat PAC ad depicts.
     
kimosABE
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 09:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I'd like to congratulate Romney on destroying his own campaign by selecting an ultra-right wing kook for VP.
Only an utter kook would "fix" Social Security by replacing it with vouchers.
EDIT: Mitt Romney has selected a running-mate who wants to reduce capital gains taxes from 14% to ZERO PERCENT. In other words, Romney wants to make those rumours of zero federal taxes paid by himself into verifiable truth! Any hope of seeing Rmoney as anything other than a selfish d0uchebag has been completely erased with this VP-candidate pick.
I can't wait for the Obama campaign ads.
Hahahaha!

Obama has already lost the election and many of his fanboys are going to wake up on Nov. 7th and wonder how it could have happened. Oh, the wailing and gnashing of teeth they will experience! Shades of 2004.

     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 12, 2012, 10:30 PM
 
Eh, now I'm going to be looking at 3rd party candidates... again...
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
ebuddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 13, 2012, 03:17 AM
 
I was hoping for Rubio, but I think Ryan will do fine. At least this way Ryan can address all the demagoguery around his budget plan.

For example, if you're just now worried about the future of Medicare, you've not been paying attention.
ebuddy
     
ironknee
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 1999
Location: New York City
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 13, 2012, 11:09 AM
 
nm
     
ebuddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 13, 2012, 05:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I'd like to congratulate Romney on destroying his own campaign by selecting an ultra-right wing kook for VP.
Only an utter kook would "fix" Social Security by replacing it with vouchers.
EDIT: Mitt Romney has selected a running-mate who wants to reduce capital gains taxes from 14% to ZERO PERCENT. In other words, Romney wants to make those rumours of zero federal taxes paid by himself into verifiable truth! Any hope of seeing Rmoney as anything other than a selfish d0uchebag has been completely erased with this VP-candidate pick.
I can't wait for the Obama campaign ads.
Oh my goodness mckenna, I believe you're coming unhinged here. I'm looking at a list of countries with ZERO PERCENT capital gains taxes and I'm just not seeing kooky. There's also nothing ultra-right wing about means testing social security to skew benefits toward those who need it most while changing zero for retirees and offering all of us the option of accessing funds that produce a much greater rate of return. BTW, the same plan congresspeople are using today managed entirely by an existing Federal agency. I submit to you that if anything damages Obama more than the state of the US economy, it will be his ad campaign. I can't wait to see them either.

Show your work and next time please use a different page for the doodles of bloody, stick-figure Romneys writhing in razor blades.
ebuddy
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Aug 13, 2012, 06:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I'm looking at a list of countries with ZERO PERCENT capital gains taxes and I'm just not seeing kooky.
Looking at that list I'll agree I don't see kooky, but I do see only countries which would fit entirely inside a small US state.

That said, I like the ring of "not kooky for Lichtenstein".
     
ebuddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2012, 03:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Looking at that list I'll agree I don't see kooky, but I do see only countries which would fit entirely inside a small US state.
It is principally aimed at growth yes, but I don't see how a simpler structure is more complicated on a larger scale. In other words, I often use this argument myself with regard to maintaining bureaucracy, but how is less of it necessarily more problematic by virtue of scale?
ebuddy
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Aug 14, 2012, 05:53 AM
 
I can't imagine Romney wanted to announce Ryan now, but it does appear all the tax talk has subsided.


I'm not terrible well-informed on Ryan. I feel like all the Palin 2.0 talk is overblown, and otherwise I'm not sure what I'm supposed to have against him.
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:52 PM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,