[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by peeb 

It astonishes me that people are willing to excuse the current abuses and crimes that Bush is committing on the grounds that someone else in the future might be as bad.

A. I'm not excusing anything. I"m pointing out the inconsistency of the criticism in question.

B. I"m still waiting for "crimes" Bush has committed to be credibly outlined. All I've seen is the usual partisan exaggerations and Bush-Hating.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by peeb 

I'm glad we agree on that, at least.

Using the same sort of standards, Bill and Hillary should be executed for treason based on their selling out the country to foreign interests. They didn't just NOT secure the borders that let crooks in, but they accepted cash in order to get stuff OUT. If you really want to use the "insane wacko" standard.....

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by thunderous_funker 

Never underestimate the stupidty and incompetence of the Democratic party

Seriously, 90% of the leadership of both parties should be rounded up, their organs harvested and their useless husks stuffed with sawdust to used to augment levies to prevent flooding in the south.

Can't really argue with that!

I dunno about so violent a fate, but I'd settle for jail time for the lot of them, for the rampant fraud and corruption most engage in daily.

I find it odd how most of us agree that politicians are mostly slimy crooks- yet some of us seem hellbent on giving them power over our health and wealth. Oh wait, that's right- it's always some future mythical lot of them that magically WON'T be sleazeballs and crooks that should have authority over our health and wealth.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Bush IS horrible and should be impeached and removed from office for failing to secure the borders.

Originally Posted by peeb 

I'm glad we agree on that, at least.

Glad to see we agree on securing the borders.

Bush is horrible, not only has not secured the border, he allowed Congress to spend like drunken democrats. He signed 99.9% of the spending presented to him.


As far as the Clintons are concerned, they have a well known track record of abuse of power all the way back to their days in Arkansas. If you want another 4 years of that, by all means vote for her.

Bill Clinton startled people in his 1992 campaign for the Presidency when he announced that Hillary was going to be a Co-President. Bill explained, "It will be like getting two for the price of one".

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

I find it odd how most of us agree that politicians are mostly slimy crooks- yet some of us seem hellbent on giving them power over our health and wealth. Oh wait, that's right- it's always some future mythical lot of them that magically WON'T be sleazeballs and crooks that should have authority over our health and wealth.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Benjamin Franklin

Collectivists(socialist/communist) believe it has failed only because it had the wrong people in charge. Once it has the right people (Bilary) to run it will work.

[thunderous_funker]

While I'm guilty of taking pot-shots on easy targets like corrupt and incompetent political parties, the truth of that matter is that we really have no one to blame but ourselves.

My support for leftist politics is not based on my belief that government is inherently good, but rather that I do believe that good people can govern themselves well. Or at least should.

The fact that we have a "conservative" party that blatently uses Federal power to batter down any state or community that dares to attempt to limit corporate power all the while spewing rubbish about small government is purely a result of weak and apathetic electorate. The same reason we have a "liberal" party that will do anything Wall Street wants all the while spewing rubbish about social responsibility.

Howard Dean was right about one thing at least before he drank the kool-aid and went to work for the crooks, American elections are a joke because the public discourse is dominated by a handful of ridiculous wedge issues that merely serve to maintain blind loyalties to parties that have long since ceased serving those historical constituencies.

The national leadership of the Republican party has no interest in a small federal government so long as it can be used to defeat populist reforms or democratic uprisings against corporate hegemony. The national leadership of the Democratic party has zero interest in undermining corporate power in the interests of real social justice.

And until American wake up and fire them all (or send them to jail or harvest their organs) we have no one to blame but ourselves.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by thunderous_funker 

While I'm guilty of taking pot-shots on easy targets like corrupt and incompetent political parties, the truth of that matter is that we really have no one to blame but ourselves.

My support for leftist politics is not based on my belief that government is inherently good, but rather that I do believe that good people can govern themselves well. Or at least should.

The fact that we have a "conservative" party that blatently uses Federal power to batter down any state or community that dares to attempt to limit corporate power all the while spewing rubbish about small government is purely a result of weak and apathetic electorate. The same reason we have a "liberal" party that will do anything Wall Street wants all the while spewing rubbish about social responsibility.

Howard Dean was right about one thing at least before he drank the kool-aid and went to work for the crooks, American elections are a joke because the public discourse is dominated by a handful of ridiculous wedge issues that merely serve to maintain blind loyalties to parties that have long since ceased serving those historical constituencies.

The national leadership of the Republican party has no interest in a small federal government so long as it can be used to defeat populist reforms or democratic uprisings against corporate hegemony. The national leadership of the Democratic party has zero interest in undermining corporate power in the interests of real social justice.

And until American wake up and fire them all (or send them to jail or harvest their organs) we have no one to blame but ourselves.

QFT. We get the government we deserve.

[Dawson]

The left-wing nutjobs certainly know how to spread propaganda in a successful way. History will judge Bush as the right man for his time and place.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by thunderous_funker 

The national leadership of the Republican party has no interest in a small federal government so long as it can be used to defeat populist reforms or democratic uprisings against corporate hegemony. The national leadership of the Democratic party has zero interest in undermining corporate power in the interests of real social justice.

If the Dems are in favor of populist reforms, why do they fight tooth and nail to stop school choice?

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Dawson 

The left-wing nutjobs certainly know how to spread propaganda in a successful way. History will judge Bush as the right man for his time and place.

Wow. You're just full of good jokes today, aren't you? I got it; you're a stand-up comic.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

If the Dems are in favor of populist reforms, why do they fight tooth and nail to stop school choice?

You're not reading my posts, are you?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by thunderous_funker 

While I'm guilty of taking pot-shots on easy targets like corrupt and incompetent political parties, the truth of that matter is that we really have no one to blame but ourselves.

Fantastic. The point remains though- I think it's a bit crazy to advocate for either corrupt politicians in control of ones health and wealth OR the blowing with the wind, ill-informed, ignorant, will of the voters picking willy-nilly which corrupt gang of nitwits shall have authority over everyone's health or wealth. Either thing is a form of insanity.

While I agree with what you're saying in principal, all the "we get the government we deserve" stuff, it sounds good, but unfortunately I don't see a lot of folks on the left side of the aisle really espouse the same views. All the stuff like bashing Republicans for not achieving a smaller government, or not cutting spending, is quite frankly, a little laughable coming from the political left.

Now granted, you're RIGHT that Republicans haven't really been interested in creating smaller government, reducing spending, and keeping more power in the hands of the individual and not the government, but let's get for real here for a minute. Leftwingers pointing out things like smaller government, more individual freedom, fiscal responsibility, etc, are merely using these as a battering ram to point out that as goals of conservatives, Republicans haven't even begun to achieve them. But none of those things are even goals of the political left, let alone anything they'd actually achieve, given power.

Lately leftists love to pretend that Republicans not being fiscally responsible = Democrats and leftists being able to claim fiscally responsiblity. And now, I guess you're gonna try and add smaller government to that! What's next? Lower taxes? It's laughable! Just because you wreck your car, that doesn't automagically make ME a good driver.

[thunderous_funker]

Your points are only valid if you deny that things can improve.

There are lots of quality Republicans out there. There are lots of quality Democrats. I don't just mean individuals, I mean actual politicians. Both parties have a pretty big disconnect between their local organizations and national leadership.

The fact that the current crop in Washington is loaded with crooks doesn't deter me from the idea of nationalizing healthcare or believing we could have just tax system. Its just an additional obstacle.

1) Fire the idiots
2) replace them with people who get the job done
3) demand the job get done well

Its really not that complicated. Arguing that we could never have a quality nationalized healthcare system simply because the current Congress and White House are schlubs is pathetic and defeatist.

But instead of firing the idiots, we simply entrench ourselves in wedge politics, call each other names, demonize each other's parties and wallow in the status quo. Which, of course, is the real agenda of those in control.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by thunderous_funker 

1) Fire the idiots
2) replace them with people who get the job done
3) demand the job get done well

...4) realize you've been duped, and your people who promised to "get the job done" are just more idiots who go just as nuts and are just as self-serving when given too much power as anyone else
5) Fire the idiots
6) replace them with more people who get the job done
7)demand the job get done well
8) realize you've been duped, and your people who promised to "get the job done" are just more idiots who go just as nuts and are just as self-serving when given too much power as anyone else
9) finally figure out that putting control over your health and wealth into the hands of politicians and government isn't a very good idea, never has been, never will be.

You're right. It's really not that complicated.
I'd rather just skip right ahead to step 9 right off the bat though, rather than go through a lifetime of cycles 1-8.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

9) finally figure out that putting control over your health and wealth into the hands of politicians and government isn't a very good idea, never has been, never will be.

You're right. It's really not that complicated.
I'd rather just skip right ahead to step 9 right off the bat though, rather than go through a lifetime of cycles 1-8.

LMAO, classic. Ideology always wins over reality every time.

Nearly every industrialized nation in the world has figured out how to deliver quality healthcare to their entire population for less per person than we spend to leave millions with no coverage at all. But I guess Americans are just too stupid or our politicians more evil or something.

I guess we'll just let healthcare continue to be the greatest anchor on our economy for another generation or so. Maybe they'll be smart enough.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by thunderous_funker 

LMAO, classic. Ideology always wins over reality every time.

But first, you have to know what either actually is.

Nearly every industrialized nation in the world has figured out how to deliver quality healthcare to their entire population for less per person than we spend to leave millions with no coverage at all. But I guess Americans are just too stupid or our politicians more evil or something.

Many of those industrialized nations are turning to more and more privatization to avoid long wait lists and provide better care. Oh but wait, American leftists have bought that it's all a panacea.

I guess we'll just let healthcare continue to be the greatest anchor on our economy for another generation or so. Maybe they'll be smart enough.

Yes, because creating a giant government monopoly that controls your HEALTH and INCOME, run by corrupt bureaucrats is just the smartest idea ever! When will people be "smart" enough to stop doing for self, and just surrender their lives to Queen Hillary or Emperor Bill? Clearly, they know best.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

Using the same sort of standards, Bill and Hillary should be executed for treason based on their selling out the country to foreign interests. They didn't just NOT secure the borders that let crooks in, but they accepted cash in order to get stuff OUT. If you really want to use the "insane wacko" standard.....

Not to forget Reagan, who sold out the whole American economy to the Japanese in the 80s...

PB.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

Not to forget Reagan, who sold out the whole American economy to the Japanese in the 80s...

PB.

A. How much did they donate to his election campaign?
B. What did he give them during his term in office that they didn't already have?

Remind me, because I DO forget.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

Not to forget Reagan, who sold out the whole American economy to the Japanese in the 80s...

PB.

Let me guess, you're driving a Nissan? Honda? Toyota? or is it a Mazda?

[Chongo]

Honda exports the Accord from Ohio to Japan

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

Not to forget Reagan, who sold out the whole American economy to the Japanese in the 80s...

PB.

Or the Clintons, who GAVE our missile staging technology to the ChiComs, and when Ron Brown figured out what was happening, they killed him.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Let me guess, you're driving a Nissan? Honda? Toyota? or is it a Mazda?

<OFFTOPIC>Are you crazy, tra1t0r??? As a proud German I drive a proud German car.</OFFTOPIC>

PB.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Or the Clintons, who GAVE our missile staging technology to the ChiComs, and when Ron Brown figured out what was happening, they killed him.

As you are willing to accept the conspiracy theories surrounding President Clinton, I hope you are willing to accept the conspiracy theories surrounding President Bush.

I'll remember this next time you disagree with some outrageous claim made against President Bush. I will fully expect you to accept it like you are willing to accept outrageous claims about President Clinton.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

A. How much did they donate to his election campaign?
B. What did he give them during his term in office that they didn't already have?

He basically surrendered to the "Yellow flood!"
You know like the "Red Flood" only not from the U.S.S.R..

PB.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Honda exports the Accord from Ohio to Japan

Why they're as American as...



well, not apple pie as it were. Of course, my point was the concern over who's selling America out to who was really not a concern to that individual at all.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Honda exports the Accord from Ohio to Japan

I'd like you to say more about this - that statement sounds highly misleading.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by peeb 

I'd like you to say more about this - that statement sounds highly misleading.

The Honda Accord is made in Ohio.
Honda Worldwide | November 1, 2007 "Honda's First U.S. Auto Plant Celebrates 25 Years of Production"

Exterior of Honda's Marysville Auto Plant in Ohio, 2007.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

He basically surrendered to the "Yellow flood!"
You know like the "Red Flood" only not from the U.S.S.R..

PB.

I'm not sure what you mean. Please elaborate or at least answer the questions I asked.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

The Honda Accord is made in Ohio.

Let me take a stab at what I think peeb is getting at.

The original statement made it seem like the only way Honda puts cars on the road in Japan is through American manufacturing might.

As I understand it, the American Accord isn't all that popular in Japan (too big). They're exported from here because that's more economical than building a whole new plant (or refitting an old one) in a market with a tiny demand. The American Accord is massively popular here, so it makes sense to manufacture it here.

This confuses your original statement, since anyone lacking some fairly detailed information about the global auto industry would be pretty much forced to assume that the American Accord is as popular in Japan as it is here, not to mention what Honda calls an "Accord" in Japan is a different car entirely, and is massively popular in Japan.

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

As you are willing to accept the conspiracy theories surrounding President Clinton, I hope you are willing to accept the conspiracy theories surrounding President Bush.

I'll remember this next time you disagree with some outrageous claim made against President Bush. I will fully expect you to accept it like you are willing to accept outrageous claims about President Clinton.

Geez, remove the square knot from your fruit of the looms! Other than the documented staging tech 'gift' the rest was meant to jerk the 'Clinton Worshipers" chains! We'll just forget the 'tears' from Bubba at the funeral.

[ebuddy]

Bush is on his way out of office. Dems are so focused on getting Cheney out of office that they've failed to provide an appropriations bill, an energy bill, a SCHIP bill, or really anything other than a pay increase for teens. We rail on Bush's performance, but little mention of Congress' dismal performance. When Clinton scandals are brought up, including faked questions at townhall meetings, we talk about Bush. When corruption is mentioned regarding the Clintons, someone brings up Bush. So... if Bush is corrupt, this is the new standard?

Bush is on his way out of office. Dems supposedly want change, but they repeatedly compare the Clintons with the Bush Administration. Does not compute. An astounding 30% still approve of Congress' performance!

[besson3c]

ebuddy: to be fair, when corruption of any Republican politician is brought up, many here have brought up Clinton time and time again.

Just more reason to make an effort to be non-partisan. Most Americans are not partisan, they just want **** to get done..

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

ebuddy: to be fair, when corruption of any Republican politician is brought up, many here have brought up Clinton time and time again.

That's exactly my point. It takes all of 5 minutes for someone to pop in and rail on the person for doing so... only for me to turn around days later and see the same thing in reverse and yet nothing is said. I agree with you on the tired antics of the political divide. It's old.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

That's exactly my point. It takes all of 5 minutes for someone to pop in and rail on the person for doing so... only for me to turn around days later and see the same thing in reverse and yet nothing is said. I agree with you on the tired antics of the political divide. It's old.

Agreed. As usual, as is the case with most things in life, our sweet spot is somewhere in the middle of the extreme edges of both parties and both ideologies. Both ends of the political spectrum have some value, and what works best and has always worked best is a balance between both.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

The Honda Accord is made in Ohio.
Honda Worldwide | November 1, 2007 "Honda's First U.S. Auto Plant Celebrates 25 Years of Production"

Exterior of Honda's Marysville Auto Plant in Ohio, 2007.

Yes, but like Toyota's "American" cars, everything about the car is manufactured in Japan, China, Korea, and Mexico, then shipped over here for assembly.

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Just more reason to make an effort to be non-partisan. Most Americans are not partisan, they just want **** to get done..

We should blame ourselves AND those in both houses of congress who we threw our votes away on for not getting anything but partisan bickering. It's easy to see why no competent person wants to be involved with all those political hacks, so our choices get worse and worse.