[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by gradient 

Along the lines of what Spheric said a few posts above, if someone goes out of their way to tell me that they're an atheist that is an open invitation for conversation/debate, imo.

Here's the thing. What I've noticed about this topic, in this thread, is something along these lines:

*reads post about why someone doesn't want kids*
"that's great. but let me tell you why I had kids and why it's so amazing."

There's no hearing the other side. It's like having a conversation with someone who doesn't care about what you're saying and is just nodding their head emphatically as you talk, hoping you'll shut up so they can go back to talking about themselves.

Nobody here who would accept the label of "childfree" has been telling any parents "but my life is SO MUCH BETTER WITHOUT CHILDREN!!!one!". It's only the parents who feel the need to emphatically monologue about how fantastic children have been for them.

For starters, nobody (I hope) would ever rail at you about how you will spend eternity in damnation if you don't have children. That's a mighty big stick to wave around and nobody tends like someone coming at them with a big stick.

Unfortunately, people do that exact thing. That's a big reason why I feel strongly about this matter. I've already damned my soul to hell for eternity about fifty times for other reasons, but I've seen too much of the religiously-fueled opinion that not having children is sinful.

I'm not just talking about the Duggars and Michelle's clown-car vagina, either.

Second, child-bearing is a basic biological function that is hard-wired into our species. Without it, none of us would exist and there is unequivocal proof of this that we all accept. This in itself gives the topic far more credibility than anything religion can bring to the table.

What's really ironic is that this is why I brought up the goddamn topic in the first place.

Culturally, childfreedom has become increasingly acceptable (although it is still highly stigmatized, it's gaining acceptance). What has happened to the biologically hard-wired drive to have children that has changed? How and why has this evolved to the point that we don't see as many childfree women hitting 30 or 35 and suddenly saying MUST HAVE BABY NOW?

Is it that one's upbringing and environment have irreparably stifled what should be a natural, biological drive? Is that people are either born with it or not and, like homosexuality, increasing social acceptance has simply allowed more women to stop ignoring that voice in the back of their head telling them they don't actually want kids, regardless of what their mother-in-law tells them?

[gradient]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Here's the thing. What I've noticed about this topic, in this thread, is something along these lines:

*reads post about why someone doesn't want kids*
"that's great. but let me tell you why I had kids and why it's so amazing."

There's no hearing the other side. It's like having a conversation with someone who doesn't care about what you're saying and is just nodding their head emphatically as you talk, hoping you'll shut up so they can go back to talking about themselves.

I honestly think you're just reading too much into what people have said on the topic here.

Nobody here who would accept the label of "childfree" has been telling any parents "but my life is SO MUCH BETTER WITHOUT CHILDREN!!!one!". It's only the parents who feel the need to emphatically monologue about how fantastic children have been for them.

Because they have no frame of reference to do so and are smart enough to know it. People who have had a wonderful experience raising children should be free to talk about it.

Unfortunately, people do that exact thing. That's a big reason why I feel strongly about this matter. I've already damned my soul to hell for eternity about fifty times for other reasons, but I've seen too much of the religiously-fueled opinion that not having children is sinful.

Well that sucks, and explains a lot. I think you're likely conflating these prior, ridiculous, comments with the much more innocent ones being brought up here.

What's really ironic is that this is why I brought up the goddamn topic in the first place.

Culturally, childfreedom has become increasingly acceptable (although it is still highly stigmatized, it's gaining acceptance). What has happened to the biologically hard-wired drive to have children that has changed? How and why has this evolved to the point that we don't see as many childfree women hitting 30 or 35 and suddenly saying MUST HAVE BABY NOW?

Is it that one's upbringing and environment have irreparably stifled what should be a natural, biological drive? Is that people are either born with it or not and, like homosexuality, increasing social acceptance has simply allowed more women to stop ignoring that voice in the back of their head telling them they don't actually want kids, regardless of what their mother-in-law tells them?

I'll get back to this.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I can be one of your friends? Having an asshole license sounds like fun, plus your militia can protect me from the Russians.

Since this wasn't obvious to shif, I hope you see that this is just intended to be ironic and therefore silly, since I'm making an intentionally asshole comment here.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Sorry, I'm not accepting applications at this time.

Well handled

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

It's only the parents who feel the need to emphatically monologue about how fantastic children have been for them.

Nobody else is quite in the position to explain what it's like, now, are they?

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Unfortunately, people do that exact thing. That's a big reason why I feel strongly about this matter. I've already damned my soul to hell for eternity about fifty times for other reasons, but I've seen too much of the religiously-fueled opinion that not having children is sinful.

STOP MAKING THIS MY PROBLEM.

That's YOUR issue, YOUR past, YOUR family, and YOUR therapy.

I went out of my way to keep my posts in this thread entirely personal, focussed entirely on MY perspective for MY life. I don't normally do that here, which is the reason your response came across all the more as you trying to be a complete asshole.

You're hell-bent (pun intended) on turning

"Here's what happened to me when I had kids"

into

"Y YUO NO HAVE BABBY?"

Stop it. Relax. You're making yourself unhappy.

[Laminar]

No, not having kids is making her unhappy. Pooping out a baby or two would really make her life better, amiright?

[Spheric Harlot]

Lam, please troll elsewhere.

You've done your best to torpedo virtually all conversations with shif over the past week, and frankly, it got annoying real fast, especially in a topic like this one which is obviously personal and at risk of injury.

</armchair mod>

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

You're hell-bent

Well played.

[Laminar]

[Spheric Harlot]

BOOM

shakalaka

[shifuimam]

OH SNAP.

Are we proud of ourselves?

[Laminar]

I thought it worked on a couple different levels.

[pooka]

I gotta admit, it's my knee-jerk anytime I see such announcements on facebook. Well done.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by pooka 

I gotta admit, it's my knee-jerk anytime I see such announcements on facebook. Well done.

My reaction is either "whoo!" or "dear God, a baby is the last thing they can afford right now"...

[subego]

I'm sure I have enough money for kids but it doesn't feel that way.

There are lots of people with much less who are confident in popping them out.

[shifuimam]

Not arguing otherwise.

I knew someone who had a kid at a time when they were tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt, had serious compulsive spending problems, and the wife couldn't hold down a job to save her life. I'm never going to get behind someone like that procreating at such a time in their lives.

[subego]

We've obviously got you rattled.

I was agreeing with you.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

My reaction is either "whoo!" or "dear God, a baby is the last thing they can afford right now"...

See, and that was the surprise.

You make it work. Because you have to.

[shifuimam]

Yeah, I'm not going to get behind someone deliberately getting pregnant when they can't get their shit together enough to be able to afford paying their water bill every month.

If that makes me judgmental, so be it.

[Spheric Harlot]

Revisit my post above about growing the **** up.

(I do see plenty of counter examples that make me want to bang heads against walls — not just mine)

[shifuimam]

I'd rather not tell someone that having a child when they have no money is a good way to become financially responsible.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Revisit my post above about growing the **** up.

(I do see plenty of counter examples that make me want to bang heads against walls — not just mine)

I think you're being a little too PC here, Shif does have a point. Yes, it's not good for us to judge other people, and some people do grow up when they have a baby, but some don't. Some people just *can't* grow up.

Maybe to the people that need a baby to grow up having a baby is a good thing for them (although that baby probably stands a greater chance to be disadvantaged), but not knowing which way things will go I'd tend to agree with Shif that maybe they shouldn't have a baby just to see what happens.

In fact, to those people unless they are willing to give their baby up for adoption and there is a good chance somebody who is fit to be a parent will adopt that baby, I think they would be better off having an abortion, particularly if it can be an early one.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Maybe to the people that need a baby to grow up having a baby is a good thing for them...

The biggest problem I have with this line of thinking is that it puts some kind of onus on the baby before it's even born. Having a baby because you needed to for some reason (your marriage is failing and you think a baby will save it, you got pregnant to keep your partner from leaving you, you hope a baby will force to you to grow up, you're sick of people asking you when you're going to have a baby, etc.) is completely unfair to the baby.

Would you want to start your very first hour of life with people who are already expecting you to enact a miracle change beyond what even an adult is capable of doing for someone else?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

The biggest problem I have with this line of thinking is that it puts some kind of onus on the baby before it's even born. Having a baby because you needed to for some reason (your marriage is failing and you think a baby will save it, you got pregnant to keep your partner from leaving you, you hope a baby will force to you to grow up, you're sick of people asking you when you're going to have a baby, etc.) is completely unfair to the baby.

Would you want to start your very first hour of life with people who are already expecting you to enact a miracle change beyond what even an adult is capable of doing for someone else?

No, I'm also not suggesting that people should have babies just to shake things up and see what happens. People should have babies when they feel like they really want one, and are prepared to be good parents.

Also, they need to be prepared to clean up ponies and rainbows.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I'd rather not tell someone that having a child when they have no money is a good way to become financially responsible.

Probably a good idea.

I think if you told them that, the proper response would be to want to punch you in the face.

[Chongo]

Most of would not be here if our parents "waited until the time was right."

[shifuimam]

I'm okay with that.

[Chongo]

You'd be okay with not being here?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

This wasn't you trying to pull the conversation in that direction, saying that science shows that people with children aren't as happy as those without, that we don't know what we're talking about or how we feel?

Ah, now I get it.

A. I said some studies. Not a indisputable proven fact.

B. That's a study about parents – not a study about you and spheric specifically.

C. I wouldn't presume to tell you how you feel.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

If I'm reading that incorrectly, then I apologize.

I don't know about your reading, but you certainly inferred incorrectly.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

They don't to me.

I didn't decide to have a child for any of these reasons. I decided to have a child because her mother and I knew, were absolutely sure, that it was the right path to take. We haven't questioned that choice, ever.

Well let me whittle the discussion down to the sticking point. In your eyes can someone be "grown the **** up" without having a child?

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

You'd be okay with not being here?

Sure, why not? I'm not some special snowflake whose existence on Earth has any significance.

It's A Wonderful Life is certainly a happy feel-good Christmas story, but it's not exactly accurate.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Well let me whittle the discussion down to the sticking point. In your eyes can someone be "grown the **** up" without having a child?

Of course.

What a stupid question.

(Actually, not: I realize that people needing to read exactly that into what I wrote is the only reason I'm still explaining stuff.)

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Of course.

What a stupid question.

(Actually, not: I realize that people needing to read exactly that into what I wrote is the only reason I'm still explaining stuff.)

I make people spell things out on the internet because ambiguity gets you hung by your toenails.

And on this subject both sides have gotten super defensive.

Thanks for answering.

[shifuimam]

Back on the OP, here's an interesting look at one evolution of sexuality:

Objectophilia, Fetishism and Neo-Sexuality: Falling in Love with Things - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Objectophilia - people who have committed, sexual relationships with objects. There's a guy who's in love with his iBook.

........................................yeah.

[Chongo]

As someone posted earlier, there is nothing new, it just gets a new name. (and a political lobby)

[shifuimam]

That's not going to change the fact that I'm going to make fun of someone who has sex with his car or a computer or the Berlin Wall.

[andi*pandi]

I'm sure in cavemen days, there was a weird caveman that was in love with a rock, and all the other cavemen laughed at him.

[subego]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

I'm sure in cavemen days, there was a weird caveman that was in love with a rock, and all the other cavemen laughed at him.

To be fair, the rock is pretty stacked.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

That's not going to change the fact that I'm going to make fun of someone who has sex with his car or a computer or the Berlin Wall.

Not new

SNL Mercury Mistress commercial 1998 FULL VERSION (1,34 min) - YouTube

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Not new

SNL Mercury Mistress commercial 1998 FULL VERSION (1,34 min) - YouTube

Never said it was. Kinda obvious if you read the article I linked to - the woman mentioned at the beginning was in love with the Berlin Wall.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

That's not going to change the fact that I'm going to make fun of someone who has sex with his car or a computer or the Berlin Wall.

Have you ever tried having sex with the Berlin Wall?

It doesn't hurt to be a little open-minded. You know who else wasn't open-minded? The Nazis.

[subego]

While it may not hurt, rock dust down there is pretty itchy.





Thanks! Try the schnitzel!

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Never said it was. Kinda obvious if you read the article I linked to - the woman mentioned at the beginning was in love with the Berlin Wall.

People will say anything to get attention.

[Chongo]

Don't forget our farm friends
Courtesy of Woody Allen

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

That's not going to change the fact that I'm going to make fun of someone who has sex with his car or a computer or the Berlin Wall.

I heard it was rock hard.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Have you ever tried having sex with the Berlin Wall?

It doesn't hurt to be a little open-minded. You know who else wasn't open-minded? The Nazis.

Well played.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Well played.

So if you're ever near the Berlin Wall you'll try having sex with it?

[The Final Dakar]

Apparently I'd make a good dad

Size may matter, at least when it comes to parenting | Ars Technica

Yep, you read that right—testicles. Testes size has been linked to reproductive effort in several species; big ones generally mean increased sperm production, which increases the likelihood of mating success. Perhaps men with large testicles would be naturally predisposed to sow their seed rather than stay home with the kids. Guys who are less well-endowed, then, might be more likely to be the nurturing sort.

Their hunch was correct; well-endowed men were less likely to play a significant role in their kids’ care, according to their answers to the survey questions. Guys with smaller testes were more likely to take their children to the doctor, give them baths, and wake up in the middle of the night to rock them back to sleep than those with larger ones were. Testosterone levels, too, were correlated with parental investment; men with low testosterone were more nurturing than those that had high levels of testosterone coursing through their bloodstream.

But, of course, maybe these findings are the result of different types of men providing for their kids in different ways. Perhaps guys with hefty testicles and those with high testosterone levels tend to have high-powered careers and can’t spend time at home caring for the kids. Instead of doing the day-to-day care, maybe they are investing in their children by bringing home big salaries.

However, the researchers found that this wasn’t the case. Guys with large testicles or high testosterone didn’t tend to work longer hours or make more money than their smaller-than-average or low testosterone counterparts. Additionally, they didn’t want to invest as much in their children; men with large testicles reported significantly lower desired levels of involvement in their kids’ care.

[Laminar]

At what diameter are they considered "large"?

[subego]

Volleyball or bigger.