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Army: Friendly Fire Likely Killed Tillman
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Face Ache
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May 29, 2004, 10:50 AM
 
Army: Friendly Fire Likely Killed Tillman

By JAY COHEN, Associated Press Writer

FORT BRAGG, N.C. - Former pro football player Pat Tillman was probably killed by friendly fire as he led his team of Army Rangers up a hill during a firefight in Afghanistan (news - web sites) last month, the U.S. Army said Saturday.


Tillman walked away from a $3.6 million NFL contract to join the Army after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. Previous military statements suggested he was killed April 22 under enemy fire.

"While there was no one specific finding of fault, the investigation results indicate that Cpl. Tillman probably died as a result of friendly fire while his unit was engaged in combat with enemy forces," Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensington Jr. said in a brief statement to reporters at the Army Special Operations Command.

Kensington said the firefight took place in "very severe and constricted terrain in impaired light" with 10 to 12 enemy combatants firing on U.S. forces.

An Afghan military official told The Associated Press on Saturday that Tillman died because of a "misunderstanding" when two mixed groups of American and Afghan soldiers began firing wildly in the confusion following an explosion.

The Afghan official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, also contradicted U.S. reports that the American soldiers had come under enemy fire.

Kensington, who heads Army Special Forces, took no questions Saturday morning after reading the statement.

When Tillman was awarded the Silver Star, the Army said he was killed after his platoon was split into two sections for what officials called a ground assault convoy. Tillman was in charge of the lead group.

His group was safely out of the area when the trailing group came under mortar and small arms fire, according to the Army, and he ordered them to return.

"Through the firing, Tillman's voice was heard issuing fire commands to take the fight to the enemy on the dominating high ground," the award announcement said. "Only after his team engaged the well-armed enemy did it appear their fires diminished.

"As a result of his leadership and his team's efforts, the platoon trail section was able to maneuver through the ambush to positions of safety without a single casualty," the announcement said.

Tillman, a member of the elite Ranger unit since 2002, was posthumously promoted from specialist to corporal and also awarded a Purple Heart.

"The result of this investigation in no way diminished the bravery and sacrifice displayed by Cpl. Tillman," said Kensington, who heads Army Special Forces. He took no questions Saturday morning after reading the statement.

A woman who answered the phone late Friday at the home of Tillman's uncle said the family would have no immediate comment.

At a memorial service in his hometown of San Jose earlier this month Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., called him "a most honorable man."

"While many of us will be blessed to live a longer life, few of us will ever live a better one," McCain, who spent 5 1/2 years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, said at Tillman's memorial service.

The friendly fire account was first reported by the Arizona Republic and The Argus of Fremont (Calif.) on Saturday.

"It does seem pretty clear that he was killed by friendly fire," Rep. Trent Franks, R-Ariz., a member of the House Armed Services Committee, told the Republic. Franks said his panel was alerted to the information by the Army's Legislative Liaison Office.

The Afghan official told the AP that two groups of soldiers had drifted some distance apart during the operation in the remote Spera district of Khost province, close to the Pakistani border.

"Suddenly the sound of a mine explosion was heard somewhere between the two groups and the Americans in one group started firing," the official said, citing an account given to him by an Afghan fighter who was part of that group, not Tillman's.

"Nobody knew what it was � a mine, a remote-controlled bomb � or what was going on, or if enemy forces were firing. The situation was very confusing," the official said.

"As the result of this firing, that American was killed and three Afghan soldiers were injured. It was a misunderstanding and afterwards they realized that it was a mine that had exploded and there were no enemy forces."

U.S. military officials in Kabul had no immediate comment.

Tillman's platoon was in the area as part of an effort called Operation Mountain Storm, in which they were charged with rooting out Taliban and al-Qaida fighters.

The Arizona Cardinals safety became the first NFL player to die in combat since the Vietnam War. He was one of about 100 U.S. soldiers to have been killed in Afghanistan since the United States invaded in 2001.
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slow moe
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May 29, 2004, 12:14 PM
 
He's still a hero, and a man among men.
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OreoCookie
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May 29, 2004, 12:42 PM
 
Friendly fire kills a lot of soldiers, that's a fact. But I also agree that it doesn't affect the way his decision should be judged. Although I am not in favor if the war in Iraq, I always respect people who live their convictions, be it protesters that go to jail or people who risk their lives.
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May 29, 2004, 01:47 PM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Although I am not in favor if the war in Iraq, I always respect people who live their convictions, be it protesters that go to jail or people who risk their lives.
Afghanistan and Iraq are two different countries by the way.
Nasrudin sat on a river bank when someone shouted to him from the opposite side: "Hey! how do I get across?" "You are across!" Nasrudin shouted back.
     
Saad
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May 29, 2004, 01:56 PM
 
I'm a little upset that so much is being devoted to Pat Tillman. He certainly made a courageous and hard decision, though. Kind of a bummer.
     
PacHead
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May 29, 2004, 02:02 PM
 
Originally posted by Saad:
I'm a little upset that so much is being devoted to Pat Tillman. He certainly made a courageous and hard decision, though. Kind of a bummer.
I'm more upset that time is being wasted on morons wearing womens panties on their head in Iraqi prisons.

Pat Tillman is a true American hero, and so is every other US soldier who gave their life.

     
OreoCookie
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May 29, 2004, 02:16 PM
 
Originally posted by Developer:
Afghanistan and Iraq are two different countries by the way.
Gomene, I have a test on Monday, so the headlines must suffice
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Saad
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May 29, 2004, 02:21 PM
 
I'm more upset that time is being wasted on morons wearing womens panties on their head in Iraqi prisons.

Pat Tillman is a true American hero, and so is every other US soldier who gave their life.
Correct. I certainly would not have made the same decision Pat Tillman did. He certainly was a man of conviction.
( Last edited by Saad; May 30, 2004 at 09:20 AM. )
     
Atomic Rooster
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May 29, 2004, 04:59 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
Pat Tillman is a true American hero, and so is every other US soldier who gave their life.

Solders do not give their lives. It is taken from them.

I was reading an article just after the U.S. killed all those Canadians in Afghanistan. It was about the casualties of friendly fire and i was amazed at the numbers. I think that's why Canada bowed out of the Iraq invasion and occupation. They weren't sure who they would be fighting...the U.S or Iraqi soldiers.

The number of friendly fire kills in Vietnam was very shocking, almost like the U.S. soldiers were fighting each other. But i guess that's understandable because the grunts were told to shoot anything that moved or they would be probably not survive. The matter of whether it was enemy or not would be sorted out later. Fact was you were most likely to be killed by your own side...so shoot.
     
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May 30, 2004, 08:36 AM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
I'm more upset that time is being wasted on morons wearing womens panties on their head in Iraqi prisons.

Pat Tillman is a true American hero, and so is every other US soldier who gave their life.

1-800-P A T H E T I C ...
I can only hope you are on your way to Iraq or Afghanistan right now or are you a stinking America hating libero pinko lefty only moving your lips???
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Will McGoonigle
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May 30, 2004, 08:44 AM
 
Originally posted by slow moe:
He's still a hero, and a man among men.

Or he could have been a big dufus with no brain and a big flag.

There's this 'I'm taking all the money or I'm going to die poor' attitude that sucks in this country. Those who have the money don't give a ****, those who don't have **** would rather people with money died somewhere as 'heroes'. The people who praise Tillman as a hero come in that group of people looking for an excuse for patriotism but actually enjoying the fact that a potentially rich numbskull died.
     
Dr.HermanG.
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May 30, 2004, 08:48 AM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Friendly fire kills a lot of soldiers, that's a fact. But I also agree that it doesn't affect the way his decision should be judged. Although I am not in favor if the war in Iraq, I always respect people who live their convictions, be it protesters that go to jail or people who risk their lives.
Risking your life for a cause you believe in and going to jail for breaking the law don't even compare.
     
PacHead
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May 30, 2004, 01:56 PM
 
Originally posted by Powerbook:
1-800-P A T H E T I C ...
I can only hope you are on your way to Iraq or Afghanistan right now or are you a stinking America hating libero pinko lefty only moving your lips???
Sounds like you are the hater, with your ridiculous comments. I've been called many things before, but an American hating libero pinko lefty ? LOL
     
slow moe
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May 30, 2004, 02:26 PM
 
Originally posted by Will McGoonigle:
Or he could have been a big dufus with no brain and a big flag.

There's this 'I'm taking all the money or I'm going to die poor' attitude that sucks in this country. Those who have the money don't give a ****, those who don't have **** would rather people with money died somewhere as 'heroes'. The people who praise Tillman as a hero come in that group of people looking for an excuse for patriotism but actually enjoying the fact that a potentially rich numbskull died.
It's people, like yourself, that don't praise heroes like Pat Tillman that are looking for an excuse. Not me pal, I don't need one.
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May 30, 2004, 04:06 PM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Friendly fire kills a lot of soldiers, that's a fact. But I also agree that it doesn't affect the way his decision should be judged. Although I am not in favor if the war in Iraq, I always respect people who live their convictions, be it protesters that go to jail or people who risk their lives.
That's actually a good point.

It's a pretty new thing to look if a soldier was killed by friendly fire. But it is extremely common.

Some military analysts believe as many as 50% of all modern warfare deaths were friendly fire (tons during WWI's trench warfare alone).

"Fog Of War", not "treason" is really the cause.

Thankfully better training, better weapons, and better strategy (don't put men in harms way if it can be avoided) have been lowering the friendly fire death stats....

but it's still quite high.

I'm a bit concerned about this info getting out. The media is playing it almost like someone realized it was Tillman, and killed him when they discuss friendly fire. When looking at the info closer, it appears all it says is 'likely killed by friendly fire'. Nothing about motive or intent.

Sounds to me more like "fog of war".
     
Will McGoonigle
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May 30, 2004, 04:34 PM
 
Originally posted by slow moe:
It's people, like yourself, that don't praise heroes like Pat Tillman that are looking for an excuse. Not me pal, I don't need one.
He's not a hero, he's a victim. Treating him like YOUR matryr makes you no different from an Islamist sending kids to blow themselves up. YOU don't know Tillman, I don't know Tillman. For all we know he might have just wanted to shoot people and be a tough guy. For all we know he might have been a raving rightwing racist. Do you know the thoughts in his head? Does anyone?

So just put it down to another casualty of war. Heroism is something people do when they create life, not take it away. Tillman should have stayed at home, done his career, made his millions and used that money to promote peace and education amongst children. That's a hero. A big guy with a gun running around is not.
     
macvillage.net
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May 30, 2004, 06:09 PM
 
Originally posted by Will McGoonigle:
He's not a hero, he's a victim. Treating him like YOUR matryr makes you no different from an Islamist sending kids to blow themselves up. YOU don't know Tillman, I don't know Tillman. For all we know he might have just wanted to shoot people and be a tough guy. For all we know he might have been a raving rightwing racist. Do you know the thoughts in his head? Does anyone?

So just put it down to another casualty of war. Heroism is something people do when they create life, not take it away. Tillman should have stayed at home, done his career, made his millions and used that money to promote peace and education amongst children. That's a hero. A big guy with a gun running around is not.
That is a good point.

There really isn't much of a difference. One commits sucide, one doesn't. Other than that, we don't know the motivation. We can only guess. I don't think there is anyone who really knows.

Good point.
     
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Dec 6, 2004, 08:34 PM
 
Army Spun Tale Around Ill-Fated Mission By Steve Coll
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, December 6, 2004

Friendly-fire is always a risk, but the Army's distortion about what really happened is disturbing. It was unfair of them to conceal the truth from Tillman's family.

Excerpts
Army records show Tillman fought bravely during his final battle. He followed orders, never wavered and at one stage proposed discarding his heavy body armor, apparently because he wanted to charge a distant ridge occupied by the enemy, an idea his immediate superior rejected, witness statements show.

But the Army's published account not only withheld all evidence of fratricide, but also exaggerated Tillman's role and stripped his actions of their context. Tillman was not one of the senior commanders on the scene -- he directed only himself, one other Ranger and an Afghan militiaman, under supervision from others. And witness statements in the Army's files at the time of the news release describe Tillman's voice ringing out on the battlefield mainly in a desperate effort, joined by other Rangers on his ridge, to warn comrades to stop shooting at their own men.
........
During several weeks of memorials and commemorations that followed Tillman's death, commanders at his 75th Ranger Regiment and their superiors hid the truth about friendly fire from Tillman's brother Kevin, who had fought with Pat in the same platoon, but was not involved in the firing incident and did not know the cause of his brother's death. Commanders also withheld the facts from Tillman's widow, his parents, national politicians and the public, according to records and interviews with sources involved in the case.
     
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Dec 6, 2004, 10:58 PM
 
When I moved to Arizona in 1998 I knew nothing about the Arizona Cardinals football team. Within a year the name, Pat Tillman was familliar to me and not only because of his play but because of the respect everyone seemed to have when referring to him.

Here's a link to a website devoted to his life and memory. I won't paste all the info here, but he was more than a big, dumb jock.

Waaaay more.

http://www.chrisvalentines.com/projects/ptpage.html

I've been a fan of Pat Tillman since the mid-90's when he was playing a large role on the last great ASU Sun Devil football team, a team that fell just short of a national title. He played with wild abandoned ...and with wild hair. I remember being surprised after finding out he was such a fantastic student, and when hearing stories of him meditating from atop the lights at Sun Devil stadium...the image didn't seem to match up with the character. After a few more Tillman stories it was clear that this dude had his own unique operating system.

When he was drafted by the Arizona Cardinals, it gave me some hope that at least somebody in that organization had a clue, but even Pat couldn't turn that ship in the right direction.

For me, Pat's decision to leave his football career to join the Army Rangers speaks volumes beyond his obvious patriotism. It's a demonstration of a life unencumbered by "expectation", "conventionality" or the big one..."fear"! Pat understood, this life is more than just a "read through". You are a "player", so play! Don't just watch.

I've put together a Flash movie tribute. It's a bit sappy and Pat Tillman would gag if he saw it, I'm sure. But it's something I wanted to do as applause for Pat's attitudes, actions and sacrifice. Below are two articles about Pat that were written by Sports Illustrated's Tim Layden. I encourage you to read them before you watch my tribute piece. One is from '97 and the other is from just after the announcement of Pat's death. If you are unfamiliar with Pat's character, Tim Layden does a wonderful job illuminating it's unique and intriguing colors. -Chris Valentine
And I think he was heroic, in death and in life.
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Dec 7, 2004, 03:17 AM
 
Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
And I think he was heroic, in death and in life.
And if he was fighting for any country other than the US he might be alive today.

     
aberdeenwriter
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Dec 7, 2004, 05:18 AM
 
Originally posted by Face Ache:
And if he was fighting for any country other than the US he might be alive today.

He joined the Army as a direct result of his country being attacked on 9/11.

Many of the other nations hit by terrorist attacks have chosen not to respond militarily.

If the President hadn't declared a war on terror the attackers may have mounted more and larger attacks against other nations and some other heroic civillians might have died because of those terror attacks instead of Pat Tillman, on a battlefield.

But that's more difficult to recognize or acknowledge.

For some.
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Dec 7, 2004, 06:22 AM
 
Tillman wasn't only fighting for the United States of America. He was fighting for us all. As were the Canadians and Frenchmen and Germans that have died. The war in Afghanistan was just and it was justly pursued. We owe something to each and every person that lost their lives in that war irrespective of who they were or how they died. I think the war could have been conducted in a better fashion, but that doesn't doesn't reduce the importance of their commitment.
     
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Dec 7, 2004, 06:35 AM
 
Originally posted by Troll:
Tillman wasn't only fighting for the United States of America. He was fighting for us all. As were the Canadians and Frenchmen and Germans that have died. The war in Afghanistan was just and it was justly pursued. We owe something to each and every person that lost their lives in that war irrespective of who they were or how they died. I think the war could have been conducted in a better fashion, but that doesn't doesn't reduce the importance of their commitment.
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Spliff
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Dec 7, 2004, 01:48 PM
 
Isn't anyone disturbed by how the US Army tried to "spin" Pat Tillman's death?
     
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Dec 7, 2004, 10:27 PM
 
Originally posted by Spliff:
Isn't anyone disturbed by how the US Army tried to "spin" Pat Tillman's death?
Um, it's policy to not jump to conclusions (including death by friendly fire) until the entire investigation is complete. In a war, it is just about impossible to complete such an investigation before the memorial service and burial.

Read more of the article you quoted...
Army spokesmen said last week that they followed standard policy in delaying and limiting disclosure of fratricide evidence. "All the services do not prematurely disclose any investigation findings until the investigation is complete," said Lt. Col. Hans Bush, chief of public affairs for the Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg. The Silver Star narrative released on April 30 came from information provided by Ranger commanders in the field, Bush said.

Kensinger's May 29 announcement that fratricide was probable came from an executive summary supplied by Central Command only the night before, he said. Because Kensinger was unfamiliar with the underlying evidence, he felt he could not answer questions, Bush said.

For its part, Central Command, headquartered at MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa, handled the disclosures "in accordance with Department of Defense policies," Lt. Cmdr. Nick Balice, a command spokesman, said in an e-mail on Saturday responding to questions. Asked specifically why Central Command withheld any suggestion of fratricide when Army investigators by April 26 had collected at least 14 witness statements describing the incident, Balice wrote in an e-mail: "The specific details of this incident were not known until the completion of the investigation."
     
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Dec 7, 2004, 11:59 PM
 
John Taylor Gatto earned New York City or New York State Teacher of the Year awards five times and serves on the board of directors of TV-Free America, sponsor of the annual "Turn Off TV Week."

I heard him say something recently which may apply here.

It was to the effect that if you fill the mind with massive amounts of disconnected facts it destroys the ability to think in context.

I'm not sure if he believes TV to be the ONLY 'nozzle' dispensing this flow of disconnected factoids or if the internet might also be suspect.

Maybe both.

Maybe that's what's behind what I call Fuzzy Thinking.

I don't know.
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