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Pol Lounge General News Thread of "This doesn't deserve it's own thread" (Page 19)
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Waragainstsleep
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Jun 7, 2017, 11:06 PM
 
Is there not a distinction between human rights and other rights? Most other rights still apply to humans, its just that human rights are about things we need and fundamentally deserve like clean water and not being tortured.
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Paco500
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Jun 8, 2017, 05:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
It goes in one ear and straight out the other but your armed citizenry has been and always will be a greater danger to itself (each other) and more of a hindrance to law enforcement than it has been a boon.
As a side note, was so please to hear the new(wish) head of the Metropolitan Police, Cressida Dick, coming firmly down on the side of NOT arming all Police. She is precient enough to recognise that the relatively small number of lives that may be saved in these primitive terror attacks would be more than balanced out by creating a arms race with traditional thugs and criminals. When then cops become armed as a matter of course, the criminals will too.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jun 8, 2017, 06:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
When then cops become armed as a matter of course, the criminals will too.
This kind of common sense doesn't wash with most Americans.
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Jun 8, 2017, 07:15 AM
 
You have it backwards though. The cops had to arm themselves to protect themselves from the bad guys. Cause and effect.
     
Doc HM
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Jun 8, 2017, 08:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
You have it backwards though. The cops had to arm themselves to protect themselves from the bad guys. Cause and effect.
You need to make a distinction (I know it's not your strong suit) between the armed anti terrorist police carrying out a distinct (guarding) role and the day to day police who go about policing. The anti terrorist police are indeed armed because the terrorists (almost by definition) are armed, while the police police are the exact opposite as Paco says. Routinely arming the police is a one way trip to armed criminals. We already have armed response units for the rare occasions when the criminals have firearms.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 8, 2017, 11:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Meanwhile our terrorists are forced to resort to kitchen knives while yours can just buy all the guns and ammo they want. The two London attacks took twice as many attackers and twice as many attacks plus the use of two vehicles as weapons to match the fatality rate of your San Bernardino attack.
You already forgot that guns have been used in some of the recent European attacks, despite them being illegal? Really? How convenient for you. You ignorantly ASSume that just because guns are used that more people will die, knives may rarely get stuck, but they certainly don't jam. The frequency with which cheap S-A rifles, like the ones used in most terror attacks, simply stop functioning after the first couple shots is startling (thankfully). A good AR-15 may be expensive, comparatively, but it's a far sight better than an illegal, unreliable clone.

A ruthless person trained with a long knife can be just as efficient, as numerous Chinese and Japanese attacks in the past have shown (read the history of the Boxer rebellion, one man with a saber and knife killed over 60 civilians and soldiers on a ferry in the middle of the night). For taking out many people in close quarters, like in a subway or train station, a pair of sharp hunting knives can be deadlier than anyone with handguns, shotgun, or a S-A rifle. Why? Because in such situations people react like herd animals and panic, becoming unpredictable. Thus simplifying the mode of attack can increase its effectiveness.

At any rate, you're not fixing a damned thing by simply taking guns away, the underlying problem that's causing it all still remains (the twisted, predatory ideology), and there's little that can be done about a well-placed bomb, made with easily obtainable (and legal materials) that fits in a purse or backpack.

It goes in one ear and straight out the other but your armed citizenry has been and always will be a greater danger to itself (each other) and more of a hindrance to law enforcement than it has been a boon.
and now you're just resorting to outright lies. Good job.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 8, 2017, 11:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
This kind of common sense doesn't wash with most Americans.
Common sense? You mean like prosecuting people for mean tweets, further exacerbating anti-Islamic sentiments? Tripling the surveillance state, almost overnight, while trampling civil liberties? For the common man you're now easily one of the most illiberal, authoritarian countries in the West, while your politicians and the wealthy live behind guarded walls in communities that are the least "diversified" in the world. There's a lot that can be said about the UK right now, but being blessed with an excessive amount of common sense isn't one of them.
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Paco500
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Jun 8, 2017, 03:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You already forgot that guns have been used in some of the recent European attacks, despite them being illegal?
Guns are not illegal in France- the laws are much more liberal than the UK, and the French cops are all armed.

So, yeah, the terrorists used guns instead of vans and knives. Just like in America.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jun 8, 2017, 07:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You already forgot that guns have been used in some of the recent European attacks, despite them being illegal? Really? How convenient for you. You ignorantly ASSume that just because guns are used that more people will die, knives may rarely get stuck, but they certainly don't jam. The frequency with which cheap S-A rifles, like the ones used in most terror attacks, simply stop functioning after the first couple shots is startling (thankfully). A good AR-15 may be expensive, comparatively, but it's a far sight better than an illegal, unreliable clone.
How is this a good reason to give terrorists easy access to nice reliable legal assault rifles instead of restricting them to knives? Not sure you've thought it through.



Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
and now you're just resorting to outright lies. Good job.
We all know I'm not. Cue the stat about you being more likely to be shot if you have a gun in your home etc etc.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jun 8, 2017, 07:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Guns are not illegal in France- the laws are much more liberal than the UK, and the French cops are all armed.

So, yeah, the terrorists used guns instead of vans and knives. Just like in America.
Remind me, did they kill more people in Paris with guns than the knife guys did in London?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jun 8, 2017, 07:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
There's a lot that can be said about the UK right now, but being blessed with an excessive amount of common sense isn't one of them.
I might even be inclined to agree with you if you weren't in a country that elected Donald Trump as the "most honest" president of all time.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Jun 8, 2017, 08:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Although it predates the Eu and was drafted by the Uk in large part, it has become conflated with the Eu and Brexit in particular.

After the recent terrorist attacks the Conservatives have discovered that the law and order card has backfired on them since they (and Theresa May in particular as Home Secretary) have cut police numbers by 20,000 in recent years and capped budgets. Unable to trot the Law and Order card out they have rounded on the EHRA as the reason why terrorists find it so easy to operate in the UK.

It was delightful to listen to Boris Johnson on the radio today lamping into Jeremy Corbyn for voting against the 2005 Anti Terrorism legislation, only to be reminded by the interviewer that he voted against it himself.
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
My read is that the Human Rights Act is a bit of a boogeyman alone the lines of Trump's illegal immigrants and their drugs and raping and whatnot.

There have certainly been cases where genuine undesirables were unable to be deported because it was deemed it was a violation on their human rights- either because the country they would be deported to (i.e. Somalia) is a documented purveyor of torture, the death penalty, and general frontier justice. I believe there was another case where a bad guy's deportation was blocked because it would have broken up a family.

At the specific, there are issues. As a general, the Human Rights Act is a 'Good Thing' and protects more good guys than bad. Much like 1st Amendment in the US allows bastards to say bastardly things, but it's far and away a net positive. UKIP and Tory eurosceptics managed to make the boogeyman main stream in the referendum, and here we are.

In my opinion, May comments were a dog whistle to eurosceptics and an outright pandering based on the recent attacks.
Thanks for the replies!

Do the chief bugaboos center around deporting people, or are there other rights in the package pissing people off?
     
subego
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Jun 8, 2017, 08:45 PM
 
BooTED



40 seconds.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 8, 2017, 10:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Guns are not illegal in France- the laws are much more liberal than the UK, and the French cops are all armed.
Where do you get your info? Because it doesn't conform with reality. They aren't strictly illegal in the UK, either. Like in France, they're simply difficult to get permission to own. Illegally acquiring them is simpler in France, however.

So, yeah, the terrorists used guns instead of vans and knives. Just like in America.
It isn't due to laws, it's due to geography.
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Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 8, 2017, 10:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
How is this a good reason to give terrorists easy access to nice reliable legal assault rifles instead of restricting them to knives? Not sure you've thought it through.
Just because you can't follow the conversation doesn't mean I haven't thought something through. As usual, that wasn't my point at all. Go back and try again.

We all know I'm not.
You know nothing.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
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Jun 8, 2017, 10:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Remind me, did they kill more people in Paris with guns than the knife guys did in London?
Remind me, which attack had more attackers?

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I might even be inclined to agree with you if you weren't in a country that elected Donald Trump as the "most honest" president of all time.
Don't ever comment about people bringing up Hillary when the discussion is about Trump. Got it?
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 9, 2017, 12:28 AM
 
Meanwhile in 2009...
     
subego
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Jun 9, 2017, 12:38 AM
 
Obama is elitist, as am I.

The Tribune is a rag.

A good burger needs no condiments.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 9, 2017, 12:41 AM
 
The question is, is using condiments on a good burger impeachable? Dershowitz says no.
     
subego
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Jun 9, 2017, 12:56 AM
 
That's reserved for ketchup on a hot dog.
     
Paco500
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Jun 9, 2017, 02:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Backpedal
You already forgot that guns have been used in some of the recent European attacks, despite them being illegal?
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Guns are not illegal in France- the laws are much more liberal than the UK, and the French cops are all armed.
[QUOTE=Cap'n Backpedal]Where do you get your info? Because it doesn't conform with reality. They aren't strictly illegal in the UK, either. Like in France, they're simply difficult to get permission to own. Illegally acquiring them is simpler in France, however.

Ummm.... not really sure how to respond to that.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 9, 2017, 02:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Ummm.... not really sure how to respond to that.
Just use a different funny name and ignore what I said, it works wonders for you, Pedro. You know, you should be nicer to me Pablo, I'm practically the only person in the PWL who bothers to engage with you anymore.

Now, down to business. What part of "having a gun on you in the UK is illegal, but you can still own one if you jump through hoops" can you not understand? One thing that people aren't considering is that the use of knives was deliberate. Terror attacks are about spreading terror (duh?) and what's scarier than not being able to prevent a deadly attack (since you can't realistically ban vans and kitchen cutlery)? Essentially the Jihadists are saying "no matter what you do, no matter what tools are available, we will get you".
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Waragainstsleep
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Jun 9, 2017, 05:38 AM
 
FYI automatic rifles are not legal in the UK outside police and military use.
I think they actually have to be bolt action. Got a feeling semi-auto is a no-no as well.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Jun 9, 2017, 06:06 AM
 
Full-auto here is highly restricted.

Wiki says in the U.K. semi-auto is only allowed for .22 rifles. Larger calibers can use actions which aren't semi-auto, so lever-action is also okay.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jun 9, 2017, 08:26 AM
 
I wasn't aware that was different. My bad.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Jun 9, 2017, 09:19 AM
 
Bolt action is WWI. Lever action is Wild West.

They also make "revolver" rifles, which would be okay.

Pump action rifles are not okay, but any action with shotguns are fine. More than 2+1 shells though, and there are extra restrictions.

So sayeth the Wiki.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jun 9, 2017, 12:40 PM
 
Yes we are ok with shotguns as long as they aren't sawn off.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 9, 2017, 03:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
FYI automatic rifles are not legal in the UK outside police and military use.
I think they actually have to be bolt action. Got a feeling semi-auto is a no-no as well.
Fully-auto rifles aren't legal here in the US either, except for a very few specific guns (known as pre-ban autos) which are collectors' items and worth a small fortune, or to a select group of people who can buy or manufacture practically anything they want, provided they're willing to allow the feds to crawl up their ass to receive a very rare (and expensive) license.
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Waragainstsleep
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Jun 10, 2017, 12:35 AM
 
What about the smaller submachine guns? Those are totally prohibited here.
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subego
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Jun 10, 2017, 12:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
What about the smaller submachine guns? Those are totally prohibited here.
Like assault rifles, they sell "civilian models", which can only fire semi-automatically.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 10, 2017, 07:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
What about the smaller submachine guns? Those are totally prohibited here.
Illegal too, because they're automatics, and any kind of fully automatic gun has been outlawed, unless you buy one of those very rare ones that costs a fortune (and is tracked like lab-grade plutonium) or you get a license that's about as hard to acquire as a top secret security clearance, during a tax audit and a colonoscopy.
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Waragainstsleep
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Jun 10, 2017, 03:44 PM
 
So no more Terminators buying Uzi 9mms then?
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subego
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Jun 10, 2017, 03:57 PM
 
I think you can get them in civilian models.

They've fallen out of favor though. Stubby assault rifles are considered the best option in most circumstances which used to call for a submachine gun.
     
subego
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Jun 10, 2017, 06:00 PM
 


(Real answer is daughter got a hold of the phone)
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 10, 2017, 07:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think you can get them in civilian models.

They've fallen out of favor though. Stubby assault rifles are considered the best option in most circumstances which used to call for a submachine gun.
One of the best selling firearms right now is actually a revolver, believe it or not. The Taurus Judge, it fires standard .45 Colt and .410 shotshells, without needing to swap cylinders, and is quite comfortable to use.



It seems reliability is making a comeback.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 10, 2017, 07:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
(Real answer is daughter got a hold of the phone)
I assumed butt dial.
     
subego
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Jun 11, 2017, 10:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
One of the best selling firearms right now is actually a revolver, believe it or not. The Taurus Judge, it fires standard .45 Colt and .410 shotshells, without needing to swap cylinders, and is quite comfortable to use.



It seems reliability is making a comeback.
I'm told people like it to defend against carjacking.
     
subego
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Jun 11, 2017, 10:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I assumed butt dial.
Shouldn't people with security clearances have passcodes enabled?
     
subego
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Jun 11, 2017, 10:59 AM
 


No one escapes the long arm of the Leahy.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 12, 2017, 10:57 AM
 
Is any testimony he gives in front of congress automatically under oath?
     
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It's a judgement call by the chair, which can get challenged by committee members and thus voted on by the committee.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 12, 2017, 11:41 AM
 
Ugh. Anyway, he's testifying in open session willingly. My initial reaction is a game is afoot. My second is that he's there to somehow paint Trump as super innocent.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 13, 2017, 10:24 AM
 
Jesus, ton o news this morning
     
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Jun 13, 2017, 11:55 AM
 
Congress trying to ban recording video in capitol hallways.
     
subego
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Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Congress trying to ban recording video in capitol hallways.
My Google-fu finds nothing.
     
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Article on the hill
     
subego
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Jun 13, 2017, 01:09 PM
 
All I could find was an ex-Kingon running for office as Mark Twain.
     
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Don't **** with Martok
     
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Worf has better hair.
     
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It was a weave
     
 
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