[slugslugslug]

And again, pete continues to ignore the fact that we haven't heard how many of the people without broadband would even consider buying a $2800 laptop. That 17% is a useless figure on its own. It doesn't take into account what portion can't afford broadband: those folks aren't affected, since their probably not buying MBPs. It doesn't mention who chooses not to buy broadband: those people, if they can afford this machine, can presumably change their mind. And it doesn't cover folks (like my parents) who can and would pay for broadband, but can't get it where they live: kinda sucks for those people, but again, buying a USB modem will not kill them.

[wtmcgee]

Originally Posted by pete

Just received the latest issue of The Economist which had statistics on broadband subscribers in OECD countries. Only 17% of Americans have broadband, compared to 25% in Korea and 27% in Iceland. The first thing I thought of when I saw that was the Macbook pro and Apple's INSANELY STUPID AND PREMATURE decision to remove the modem from their new portables. Whatever people may say, the vast majority of people throughout the world do not have broadband and Apple should have kept the modem for a few more years.

What were they thinking? Or, rather, why weren't they thinking?

Just a rant.

the 17% of people who have broadband are precisely the people who buy $2000+ laptops.

[pete]

Originally Posted by slugslugslug

And again, pete continues to ignore the fact that we haven't heard how many of the people without broadband would even consider buying a $2800 laptop. That 17% is a useless figure on its own. It doesn't take into account what portion can't afford broadband: those folks aren't affected, since their probably not buying MBPs. It doesn't mention who chooses not to buy broadband: those people, if they can afford this machine, can presumably change their mind. And it doesn't cover folks (like my parents) who can and would pay for broadband, but can't get it where they live: kinda sucks for those people, but again, buying a USB modem will not kill them.

And you're ignoring the fact that while most people who buy macs MIGHT have broadband access at home, they are still not isolated in the wider world which still relies on dial up. The modem is NOT for home use necessarily, but for travel and security when there are no other options. One thing is to exclude a modem from a desktop computer that will be stationary and with one kind of connection all the time, but the whole point of a laptop is to have most options built-in so that when you need something there is no need for extra accessories.

I will eventually get a macbook and when I do, I'll get a modem to bring with me. I don't have a big problem with that. But I still think it was too early to abandon the built-in modem and I wish they hadn't. What I think bothers me more than anything is that it seems Apple took too many steps backward in order to shave a fraction of an inch off the macbooks: took away the modem, took away s-video out, decreased airflow and thus increased heat and decreased the possible angle of the display bezel. All that for a slightly slimmer but wider notebook. I just don't agree with their decision and obsession with thinness.

[Keda]

I voted in the poll, but wanted to voice my opinion here.

I bought my 12" PB three years ago. In that time, I have used never used the built-in modem. When I travel, most hotels have a wireless connection.

Given the trade-off between laptop size & internal modem, I'd gladly give-up the modem. As others have said, those who really NEED the modem should buy the dongle.

[Andy8]

Originally Posted by pete

I'm sorry, but that it simply not true. People who use broadband think that everybody uses it when in fact only a smaller portion of the population uses it. There is a Chinese expression that perfectly describes this thread's perspective: a frog in a well (jing di zhi wa).

Any decent hotel in Asia these days has broadband, wired or wireless. Again, most people that can afford a decent laptop (Apple) can afford a decent hotel. I travel to Beijing, Shanghai, Taipei, Tokyo, Singapore and Bangkok often enough and I have not had to use dailup in years.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by Keda

Given the trade-off between laptop size & internal modem, I'd gladly give-up the modem.

Except for that they got bigger, but yeah, you've got the right idea at least.

[Andy8]

Originally Posted by pete

And you're ignoring the fact that while most people who buy macs MIGHT have broadband access at home, they are still not isolated in the wider world which still relies on dial up. The modem is NOT for home use necessarily, but for travel and security when there are no other options. One thing is to exclude a modem from a desktop computer that will be stationary and with one kind of connection all the time, but the whole point of a laptop is to have most options built-in so that when you need something there is no need for extra accessories.

I will eventually get a macbook and when I do, I'll get a modem to bring with me. I don't have a big problem with that. But I still think it was too early to abandon the built-in modem and I wish they hadn't. What I think bothers me more than anything is that it seems Apple took too many steps backward in order to shave a fraction of an inch off the macbooks: took away the modem, took away s-video out, decreased airflow and thus increased heat and decreased the possible angle of the display bezel. All that for a slightly slimmer but wider notebook. I just don't agree with their decision and obsession with thinness.

If you need a modem, pack a USB modem along with your power supply and travel plug kits - no big deal if you REALLY need one, as you are already carry all this other stuff.

[f1000]

Originally Posted by pete

And you're ignoring the fact that while most people who buy macs MIGHT have broadband access at home, they are still not isolated in the wider world which still relies on dial up. The modem is NOT for home use necessarily, but for travel and security when there are no other options.

1) Get a 2.5G or 3G Bluetooth cellular modem. There's almost no place in the Northeastern U.S. that doesn't have at least 2.5G (which can easily be over twice as fast as a 56K POT modem).

2) Leave "the rest of the world" out of the debate, since most of it consists of people who can't even afford their own cell phone, let alone a MacBook Pro. It's not fair to force all MacBook purchasers, most of whom reside in wealthier industrialized countries, to purchase and therefore subsidize the POT modem needs of a few globe trekkers who might need to occasionally visit Uganda. Not every place in the world has electricity - would you force all MacBook owners to purchase a laptop with a hand-cranked generator?

A laptop should only incorporate those technologies absolutely essential for the vast majority of users: keyboard, screen, hard drive, etc. As much as I would like to see a 3G cellular modem incorporated into future MacBooks, I'm afraid that such a move would lock MacBook purchasers into a particular proprietary technology.

[slugslugslug]

Originally Posted by pete

And you're ignoring the fact that while most people who buy macs MIGHT have broadband access at home, they are still not isolated in the wider world which still relies on dial up…

Okay, but it sure didn't seem like that's what you were ranting about at first.

I will eventually get a macbook and when I do, I'll get a modem to bring with me. I don't have a big problem with that. But I still think it was too early to abandon the built-in modem and I wish they hadn't…

You're reinforcing what someone said earlier: this is like the floppy drive issue. People who need it will spring for the external option, and in a few years, nobody will care..

[tooki]

Again, as I said: Apple's current major markets are (in order, IIRC): USA, Japan, and Europe. And in those 3 places, broadband is widely available. Apple's customers tend to be affluent -- the kind of customer who would use broadband.

And for those customers who live elsewhere, where broadband is scarce, or who travel to places where it's not available, the USB modem is tiny and inexpensive. Seems like a great compromise to me. And, as I and f1000 said, cellular data is widely available (in fact, in many developing countries, cellular service is available where land lines are not!).

tooki

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by tooki

Seems like a great compromise to me.

What are you gaining by losing the modem, though? The MacBooks are bigger than the PowerBooks they're replacing.

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

What are you gaining by losing the modem, though? The MacBooks are bigger than the PowerBooks they're replacing.

Apple is probably saving a few pennies. That is probably the only reason why they did it, on top of the fact that they realized that nobody ever used it. IMHO the MBP is not really a travelling laptop. If I wanna go out in the wild I'll take a smaller form and more rugged laptop, certainly not a MBP. But I agree that it probably did not help much in term of size.

[Commodus]

I'd like to add something else in favour of removing the internal modem: I know one person who had the built-in modem on his laptop break. In order to get that fixed, he would have to take it into a qualified service centre. That's not trivial, especially if you're out of warranty.

It could actually be more practical for a traveller to use USB modems, even if you do have a Mac laptop with a built-in modem. If a USB modem breaks or is lost, just replace it. You can even buy two and have a spare just in case (hopefully in a different bag, so you don't lose both at the same time).

True, this kind of solution isn't cheap, but if you're travelling with an expensive laptop to a place with no viable Internet alternatives, you should be considering backup solutions as a matter of course. The price of remaining in the "dark" on a business trip (or even in a remote location on a personal trip) can be much higher than a $50 USB modem.

[Helmling]

The dangle modem is so frickin' tiny, I literally cannot imagine what all the fuss is about.

[sledsbehave]

this is so similar to when the iMacs didn't have a floppy drive...

it's like deja vu

if i used a modem, and i had to spend an extra $50 for a usb modem, i'd be kinda upset too...

but at some point technology has to move on and apple is usually the first computer company to do these things.

when it comes down to it, it's not a huge deal, because the option for a modem is still there. it's not like the modem no longer exist

[ibook_steve]

Originally Posted by pete

What I think bothers me more than anything is that it seems Apple took too many steps backward in order to shave a fraction of an inch off the macbooks: took away the modem, took away s-video out, decreased airflow and thus increased heat and decreased the possible angle of the display bezel. All that for a slightly slimmer but wider notebook. I just don't agree with their decision and obsession with thinness.

Quick note: s-video was not removed. It was just moved to the DVI-I port as has been done on the other Powerbooks to save space.

And are you forgetting what company we're talking about here? This is Apple, not Dell. Of course they want their machines to look as good as they operate.

I'm not sure why you are continuing this argument. I think everybody here understands your displeasure with the removal of the modem. Just let it go.

Steve

[Gee4orce]

Why didn't they put a floppy drive in ? No - not one of those new fangled 3.5" ones either, I'm talking 5.25"

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by Gee4orce

Why didn't they put a floppy drive in ? No - not one of those new fangled 3.5" ones either, I'm talking 5.25"

And punch cards... and cassette tape readers!

[jasonsRX7]

And ethernet, haha! Oh crap, is that still built in? That old mess needs to go! Hopefully they'll take the ethernet ports out and make the next MacBooks a little bigger.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

What are you gaining by losing the modem, though? The MacBooks are bigger than the PowerBooks they're replacing.

Wrong. The MacBook Pro is smaller. Yes, its footprint is slightly larger. But its total volume is actually about 5.5% smaller.

PowerBook G4 Aluminum 15": 1.1"x13.7"x9.5"=143.165 cubic inches
MacBook Pro 15": 1.0"x14.4"x9.6"=135.36 cubic inches

tooki

P.S. The 17" MacBook Pro is actually 1/5" deeper than the PowerBook G4 17", increasing the total volume by about two cubic inches.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by tooki

P.S. The 17" MacBook Pro is actually 1/5" deeper than the PowerBook G4 17", increasing the total volume by about two cubic inches.

One is bigger by volume and footprint, one is smaller by volume but bigger by footprint. Ok, close enough

[aristotles]

Ok, here is the thing. If you need dialup on the road for business, buy the extra modem and expense it as a business expense to either your employer or your own company as a write off. I do not want/need a modem in my laptop and I do not want to subsidize the niche needs of the few.

Modems are just one more thing that can break on your motherboard and the jacks do tend to wear out from use.

[Markg]

pete: why not just buy the usb modem? Life is sometimes unfair. The people in rural areas will have to do with a usb modem. It's not a big deal. Like other people stated, if you can afford a 3K computer, then you can afford a $50 modem.


To me, not having a modem outweighs the benifits of having a modem inside.

[Dr Reducto]

Originally Posted by Markg

pete: why not just buy the usb modem? Life is sometimes unfair. The people in rural areas will have to do with a usb modem. It's not a big deal. Like other people stated, if you can afford a 3K computer, then you can afford a $50 modem.


To me, not having a modem outweighs the benifits of having a modem inside.

Not to mention that the Airport extreme can share a dialup connection wirelessly, which even if you are stuck with dialup, you can still have the convenience of wireless

[Salty]

holy frick people. If you can afford the 3 thousand dollar laptop. I'm sure you can pony up the cash for the 50 dollar dongle. It's going to in the end cost Apple far less to sell you a couple 50 dollar dongles than to spend as much as they would on the modems for all the MacBook Pros that don't need to have modems! And quite frankly if I could trade the dial up modem in my 12 inch PB that I have NEVER once used, then I'd be fine with that.
Actually to be honest while I don't think dropping the ethernet port on the MacBook Pro is a smart idea... I honestly wouldn't mind. My AirPort express base station is great, and I haven't had to plug in much more than a USB or Power Cable in months!

[slffl]

I'm surprised there are people who use macs and don't have a cellphone to use as a modem.

[analogika]

I fail to see the problem.

Apple once cited a study, IIRC, where over 90% of Powerbook customers were NOT USING their analog modem.

Frankly, I don't know a SINGLE Powerbook owner who doesn't ALSO own a cellphone.

The number of people who really NEED dialup because they are unable to use their cellphone to get online when they travel and don't have broadband at home is tiny enough to warrant that not every single user pay for a built-in extra that pretty much nobody needs or wants.

[wuzup101]

This thread is getting kinda funny. It started with some (probably) factual data showing the percentage of people in the US who had dial-up. However, this is a poor argument for the inclusion of a 56k dial up modem into the new MBPs. First off, if you're a traveler, and you go all over the world and are always using dial up then buy the freggin modem. Please realize however: you are not in the majority of the target demographic that apple is selling to. Sure, powerbook/MBP users travel, and their notebooks are used as true portables in many cases. However, most of them are not traveling to remote areas of the globe every weekend where they need dial-up.

Now, I could see the argument if they took out the ethernet port, but dial up? Come on. I wasn't even aware that my 15" powerbook had a modem until I read this thread. Aparently it was sneaky and has a certain fondness for the power port. I've never come even remotely close to using the damn thing. Even if I had to, I'd have to find myself a cable anyway. Buisness man you say? Please... travel across the US. Most hotels above the class of a crappy motel have atleast wired ethernet access. Most hotels targeted at buisness/economy travel advertise that they have ethernet in all the rooms and wireless in their lobby areas at the minimum. The fact is, most places that you're going to be traveling to on buisness will have ethernet or wireless. Buisnesses don't typically send their employes to remote areas of the globe. Why? Their buisness people... they interact with other buisness people... in areas of higher population... where they have things like hotels/coffee shops/bookstores with wireless internet access, etc... You won't find many important buisness events that require you to travel to a little podunk town of population 500 to do buisness - much less that make you sleep in a tent that only has dial-up.

If you need the modem, buy it!

And as for market demographics. When Porsche engineers a new car/SUV they don't thing "jee we better make this affordable so that the urban single mother of 3 making 30k a year can buy 2." By the same token, Apple doesn't say "jee we better include an internal modem so that the 0.5% of our clients that might use this dial-up modem once a year in their $3000 top end laptop don't have to buy a dongle."

On a further note: http://www.websiteoptimization.com/bw/0502/

The article says that in Jan '05 ~55% of people who had the internet in the US had broadband at home. This trend is growing.... so that 17% actually represents more than half of the people in the US who do have the internet.

[Trygve]

Originally Posted by Andy8

Any decent hotel in Asia these days has broadband, wired or wireless. Again, most people that can afford a decent laptop (Apple) can afford a decent hotel. I travel to Beijing, Shanghai, Taipei, Tokyo, Singapore and Bangkok often enough and I have not had to use dailup in years.

Hmm. Not really the case in Vientiane, Yangoon or other places... only the highly developed capitals, though I did find broadband in Phnom Penh. And once you get out of the capitals, broadband quickly goes away (except in highly developed countries like Japan).

[Trygve]

2) Leave "the rest of the world" out of the debate, since most of it consists of people who can't even afford their own cell phone, let alone a MacBook Pro.

I am constantly shocked by how widespread mobile phones are. Even in D.R. Congo, many (most?) people have mobiles. True, no MBPs there, but mobiles are simply everywhere... more common than land lines in the developing world.

[onlykaria]

i dont think i would ask apple why they didnt put dial up jack on the laptop... i think i would be asking why one is looking into the $2799 laptop when $50 seems like a hardship?

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by pete

We don't need the modem for our own home access. We need it when travelling around domestically and abroad. Of course many of the people who can afford the $2000 of an apple laptop in the US will probably have broadband access, but these people are not isolated from the rest of the world, who, if we are to believe the 17% figure, are in the majority.There are many many situations where a modem would come in handy. Not to mention that Apple is an international company with customers in other parts of the world.

I still think Apple's move was premature.

Quoted for emphasis. My feelings exactly. When I am on the road with my laptop (Mac or PC), I use modem connections all the time. Of course I use also cable broadband and wireless connections all the time, but there are many places without them and I don't like the idea that I have to think of another device (however small or light) that I have to carry with me.

Regards
PB

[jamil5454]

Originally Posted by Trygve

I am constantly shocked by how widespread mobile phones are. Even in D.R. Congo, many (most?) people have mobiles. True, no MBPs there, but mobiles are simply everywhere... more common than land lines in the developing world.

How about the UAE? Just curious. I know my uncle in Abu Dhabi gets broadband in his apartment.

On the other hand, half my family in Lebanon doesn't even use computers, but the ones that do don't have access to broadband. I'd suspect the only place you can get broadband would be Beirut. However, everyone there has a cell phone, so go figure.

As tooki said, these countries would be wasting their time setting up broadband land lines when so many people already have cell phones. It would be much wiser just to put up a few more towers and call it a day.

[tooki]

Yep. In developing nations, it's proven to be far more cost-effective to set up cellular towers and call it a day, since cellular handsets these days are cheap and reliable. Running land lines is extremely costly.

tooki

[Trygve]

Originally Posted by jamil5454

How about the UAE? Just curious. I know my uncle in Abu Dhabi gets broadband in his apartment.

On the other hand, half my family in Lebanon doesn't even use computers, but the ones that do don't have access to broadband. I'd suspect the only place you can get broadband would be Beirut. However, everyone there has a cell phone, so go figure.

As tooki said, these countries would be wasting their time setting up broadband land lines when so many people already have cell phones. It would be much wiser just to put up a few more towers and call it a day.

The UAE has broadband at least in the major cities. In Dubai it is expensive (more than $100 per month for 2mbps)... but everyone... everyone has mobile phones. The internet in the UAE works ok, but as it is all censored, everything flows through a few gateways so it can get slow at busy times (evening). Most cafes that cater to Westerners have WiFi, but overall Dubai is still behind the rest of the developed world in internet. In Prague I get 10mbps for half the cost of 2mbps in Dubai.

[DeeKat]

This thread is getting kinda funny. It started with some (probably) factual data showing the percentage of people in the US who had dial-up. However, this is a poor argument for the inclusion of a 56k dial up modem into the new MBPs. First off, if you're a traveler, and you go all over the world and are always using dial up then buy the freggin modem. Please realize however: you are not in the majority of the target demographic that apple is selling to. Sure, powerbook/MBP users travel, and their notebooks are used as true portables in many cases. However, most of them are not traveling to remote areas of the globe every weekend where they need dial-up.

Now, I could see the argument if they took out the ethernet port, but dial up? Come on. I wasn't even aware that my 15" powerbook had a modem until I read this thread. Aparently it was sneaky and has a certain fondness for the power port. I've never come even remotely close to using the damn thing. Even if I had to, I'd have to find myself a cable anyway. Buisness man you say? Please... travel across the US. Most hotels above the class of a crappy motel have atleast wired ethernet access. Most hotels targeted at buisness/economy travel advertise that they have ethernet in all the rooms and wireless in their lobby areas at the minimum. The fact is, most places that you're going to be traveling to on buisness will have ethernet or wireless. Buisnesses don't typically send their employes to remote areas of the globe. Why? Their buisness people... they interact with other buisness people... in areas of higher population... where they have things like hotels/coffee shops/bookstores with wireless internet access, etc... You won't find many important buisness events that require you to travel to a little podunk town of population 500 to do buisness - much less that make you sleep in a tent that only has dial-up.

If you need the modem, buy it!

And as for market demographics. When Porsche engineers a new car/SUV they don't thing "jee we better make this affordable so that the urban single mother of 3 making 30k a year can buy 2." By the same token, Apple doesn't say "jee we better include an internal modem so that the 0.5% of our clients that might use this dial-up modem once a year in their $3000 top end laptop don't have to buy a dongle."

My thoughts exactly

The Modem dongle is very small. It's not a big deal to lug it around, come on guys!!!