[Superchicken]

I think it is worth noting that when people say homosexual behaviour is a choice they are not saying that people decide daily who they like and who they don't. What they're saying is sex in any sense is a choice you make. And to suggest that someone can not at all control their urges is silly we do it every day, and as a virgin I can say it's entirely possible to do it for a whole 21 years straight

[Warung]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

And to suggest that someone can not at all control their urges is silly we do it every day...

The question of course is, - why should someone control their urges?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I hate to play this card, but it seems necessary: I am gay. I have known a number of guys who have gotten involved in gay relationships because it is exciting to do something "different". When they are done experimenting, they go back to being straight.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that a lot of people will try things simply because they are taboo. Homosexuality is no exception here.

are you a top or a bottom, what do u think of rimming, are you a boi, bear or twink?

[jcadam]

Originally Posted by Warung

The question of course is, - why should someone control their urges?

[Warung]

Originally Posted by jcadam

Thanks for making my point.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by tooki

Yes, it is: having sex with a guy a couple of times doesn't make you gay. Being attracted to someone of the same sex is what makes you gay.

Homosexuality isn't just about sex; heck, it's probably not about sex at all. It's about who you are attracted to.

tooki

yup Ive never had ass sex ever, and my bf is hardly sexual, well with me anyways I love him for him, not the sexual part of it.

[Busemann]

[HawgJawl]

Originally Posted by Warung

The question of course is, - why should someone control their urges?

I feel like shooting grandma today. Should I control my urges?

Lack of self discipline is a major problem on this planet.

Some people claim homosexuality is the biggest spreader of AIDS. It is not.

It's lack of self discipline. No matter what sexual orientation you are.

[Warung]

Originally Posted by HawgJawl

I feel like shooting grandma today. Should I control my urges?

No, go right ahead. And when your done, go back to cleaning your room...

Originally Posted by HawgJawl

Lack of self discipline is a major problem on this planet.

Actually, lack of imagination is a much bigger problem.

Originally Posted by HawgJawl

Some people claim homosexuality is the biggest spreader of AIDS.

No, the white man is. The white man invented AIDS and spread it throughout Africa to keep the Black MAN down!

Originally Posted by HawgJawl

It's lack of self discipline. No matter what sexual orientation you are.

What if the sexual orientation involves diciplining?

[HawgJawl]

Originally Posted by Warung

Actually, lack of imagination is a much bigger problem.

Lack of imagination? I don't think that is the problem.

No, the white man is. The white man invented AIDS and spread it throughout Africa to keep the Black MAN down!

Nevermind. Go back under your rock.

[wolfen]

Originally Posted by Warung

Interesting point. But I think you are confusing two very different aspects here.

One, is how open you actually are to different "ways of having sex" and "willingness to experiment", - the other is "who you are attracted to".

While I would agree that the first is rather "malleable", the second one, dealing with a GENERAL preference is something distinctly different.

Again, I don't know a single person, or have ever heard of a single case, where somebody who had previously not been attracted to a person of the same sex, was all of a sudden coerced, persuaded or forced (unless they were in the slammer) into having homosexual "urges".

That's why "putting your dick in a man's ass", as one poster here so eloquently put it, is NOT the same as doing it with a women.

The only time this could actually play a role is if a person was truly split up the middle (bi-sexual) and wasn't sure which direction to go in (or simply not comfortable with having sex with both men and women). But afaik, most people fall pretty solidly (save the uncertainties from external/societal pressure) into one category or the other.

Well if you read all my posts (which are lengthy, I admit) I covered this.

There is evidence that exposure to sexual experiences (be they pedophilic or not) open doors in kids' development. I know of several women who are gay and looky here -- they were abused by men as children. Likewise I know gay men who were preyed upon as children by men. Men and women don't deal with sexual abuse quite the same way. The wiring is different, but you get the point. Sexual experiences seem to have the ability to affect preferences.

Your statements are an exampe of what I'm trying to address: the malleability of your sexuality is a lot greater than people want to admit. They tie their identity to what makes their body tingle -- which is stupid. You can condition the body to tingle over so many things. Don't do that. Just accept that your body/mind link is full of back doors (ha ha) that people simply don't investigate. That doesn't mean they're not there.

[Warung]

Originally Posted by wolfen

Sexual experiences seem to have the ability to affect preferences.

Well, and then there are those kids who also get "molested" and don't even think about becoming gay. In addition, your sampling rate might also be too small to derive any conclusions from it.

Yes, sexual experiences DO factor into one's sexual preferences, but I highly doubt they are determining. Genetic predispositions play a rather large role. And then there might be some other factors that are involved as well.

Originally Posted by wolfen

You can condition the body to tingle over so many things. Don't do that. Just accept that your body/mind link is full of back doors (ha ha) that people simply don't investigate. That doesn't mean they're not there.

This might very well be the case, BUT then you never have any single determining factors, and you have an ENORMOUS grey area and tons of different factors you have to account for. Much more than would allow for a simplistic "cause and effect" inference like: "Doing this and that will definitely (or even most of the time) turn somebody gay."

Plus, I really don't believe that "accessing" these "back doors" is an easy (or even desireable) goal to achieve. I'm sure it's a lot more complex. So much so, that one can treat genetic predispositions pretty much as genetic determinants.

[jcadam]

Another question:

Why is bisexuality much more common in women than it is in men?

[wolfen]

Originally Posted by Warung

Well, and then there are those kids who also get "molested" and don't even think about becoming gay. In addition, your sampling rate might also be too small to derive any conclusions from it.

Ha! You're mocking MY sample size?

Originally Posted by Warung

Again, I don't know a single person, or have ever heard of a single case,

Yes, sexual experiences DO factor into one's sexual preferences, but I highly doubt they are determining. Genetic predispositions play a rather large role. And then there might be some other factors that are involved as well.

I've already been allowing for genetics. I am not speaking in absolutes. (you are)

Right now, it's your mental model vs. my psychology courses, 12+ sexually abused family members and friends, & my 20+ gay friends and co-workers over the years. I have to respectfully disagree with most of your conclusions. I have a very objective view in all this (my views have shifted substantially over the past 20 years -- changed with new information.)

The point is you're still looking at this thing in terms of absolutes. "Determining" is a word that connotes an absolute. Are you at least hearing me when I say there are few absolutes, and mostly doors that we are more and less willing to open? I'm not saying that the experiences determined that these people would be gay. Only that the experiences pushed hard on doors that might not otherwise have been opened. Certain choices (like engaging in anal sex) are a lot easier to make if you've already been through it. That's a very simplistic example of what I'm talking about...but I believe it extends beyond that into our feelings for members of our sex and the opposite sex.

You can learn to feel a depth of appreciation for the same sex that society at large is unwilling to embrace. Powerful intimate (or abusive) experiences destroy bases of reality. Large chains of re-evaluation occur. The end results are skewed, not determined, by the nature of the experience itself.

And yes, those conclusions and new emotional pathways are going to in part rely upon our existing mental construction, which has its own probabilistic bias. But it's obvious that some of the #'s in that probability chart are going to be altered by the experiences we have in life.

This might very well be the case, BUT then you never have any single determining factors, and you have an ENORMOUS grey area and tons of different factors you have to account for. Much more than would allow for a simplistic "cause and effect" inference like: "Doing this and that will definitely (or even most of the time) turn somebody gay."

Again, the deteriministic, black-and-white "Oh no I'm suddenly gay" logic does not hold in the real world. yes -- lots of grey. that much is true.

Plus, I really don't believe that "accessing" these "back doors" is an easy (or even desireable) goal to achieve. I'm sure it's a lot more complex. So much so, that one can treat genetic predispositions pretty much as genetic determinants.

Easy or desireable? More for some people, less for others. That's the point. As for your gods of genetics : My education, training, and life experience do not support your mental model. In short, I think you're reasoning logically about something you don't have enough data or experience with. You've got a lot of preconceptions clouding your approach to the discussion. Your wanting simple answers. With no judgment at all I request you look at your own motivations for resolving this intellectual exercise. What do you want to find? More importantly, why?

[SVass]

I originally did not bother to respond to this thread because it is a nonsense question akin to asking how many days did it take to create the Earth. Only those who insist that whatever they do is correct and all others must act the same care about the answer. As long as no one else is harmed it makes no difference. Both hererosexual and homosexual activity between adults and children is forbidden by law so that is not an issue. Homosexual activity between consenting adults was criminal in many states until the "privacy" right was recognized. Now some want to use a disparaging term and redefinition. Let us rephrase the question properly.

Is insistence that my way of life is the only way a mental illness? (Or more apropos to this forum, should everyone purchasing a PC instead of a Macintosh be committed for observation?) sam

[budster101]

Every time you post something you prove to me once more what sort of person you are. Thank you.

It seems that only sane people purchase Mac computers, at least where I'm sitting.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by jcadam

Another question:

Why is bisexuality much more common in women than it is in men?

I was just gonna ask the same thing. It sure seems to me that women's sexuality and sexual behavior is a lot more fluid and malleable than men's.

I have gotten the distinct impression that many (not all) lesbians aren't really pro-women; they're just anti-men. Gay men love women (except to, well, love them... you know what i mean), while many lesbians are actively anti-men.

You don't often hear about men having turned gay because of childhood abuse -- yet you hear that a LOT with lesbians.

<pet theory> It seems to me that while men's attraction works additively (base of zero, plus add the gender[s] that he is attracted to), while women's works subtractively (base of everyone, minus everyone she has a reason to not be attracted to). </pet theory>

tooki

[CreepingDeth]

Well, in porn, there are many lesbians because half of them aren't real and are gay-for-pay porn whores. So to answer j's question, bisexuality is more common among women because they're bigger sluts.

Your comment about anti-men feelings among lesbians actually answers a question I've had about the feminist movement. Heh.

All I know is you will never see two men sharing lollipops (not in the porn way, normal way). Or clothes for that matter. Explain that.

[tooki]

Many gay men definitely share clothes.

But you never see men going to the bathroom in groups, the way girls do. (I have a sister, I witnessed this firsthand countless times.)

tooki

[CreepingDeth]

Unless it's like that scene in 'The Sweetest Little Thing', then I don't want know what's going on in there. I mean, what the hell do you do? Give each other pregnancy tests? Or do you need your friend to help you with your bowel movements?

[budster101]

I was eating dinner with the family and the women excused themselves to go to the BR. When they came back I stood up, told everyone I had to go to the can and asked if any of the guys wanted to join me....

They all politely declined. The girls laughed. (Half-heartedly)

[tooki]

Yeah. I've never understood why women need a whole crew for moral support just to go take a piss... I've always been quite content to go on my own.

tooki

[budster101]

The truth behind the group bathroom visit could be any one or all of the following:

1. Women talk like sailors when men are not around and this gives them an excuse to do so.
2. They also chew tobacco, so they share and use the spitoon that is common in all ladies rooms...
3. They like to shoot a game of pool now and then while one takes a crap. Didn't you know? They have pool tables and bars in women's "Bathrooms"...
4. They on occassion but rarely share makeup and other utilities they carry in their purses.
5. Most are secretly lesbiens and have a fetish for wiping each other's butts.
6. Grand make-out sessions in the bathroom... which they film and then put up on their web sites.
7. Gossip, < this is something I know women rarely do, but when given the chance to say a few words about you or some other person's date, they just can't resist and are much too polite to do so at the table so they go and do 1-6 in private politeness as to not offend the menfolk...

Hope this helps.

Did I mention a quick game of Texas Hold'em?

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by Athens

are you a top or a bottom, what do u think of rimming, are you a boi, bear or twink?

top, twink, i rim betwixt

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by tooki

Yeah. I've never understood why women need a whole crew for moral support just to go take a piss... I've always been quite content to go on my own.

tooki

they like to rate each other's solid waste (the dark, foul side of femininity)

[budster101]

Yep, dat dare wuz a big'n. Must've bin abote a foot long. (The bathroom erupts in cheer!)

One girl comments: Yuz da shizzle beotch.
girl replies: Thanks mom.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

i rim betwixt

What does that mean?

(And I always thought you were female for some reason...)

[lavar78]

Originally Posted by jcadam

Why is bisexuality much more common in women than it is in men?

Maybe it isn't? Really, how would we know?

[Superchicken]

One reason why you probably don't hear the reasons for gay men becoming gay is because guys are a lot for the most part less inflective than women are, even gay men. Not to mention have you ever had anything that is perceived as wrong about you? I know growing up I was the fat kid, I played every psychological game on myself to tell myself it was OK and even good cause it didn't make me dumb like the skinny kids. Ultimately I was just fooling myself and trying to make myself feel the best I could in a bad situation.
How many people do you know that are ACTUALLY honest with themselves about who they are when they are that person? Sure people will generally be relatively honest about who they used to be when they are not that person. But who they are is a very guarded thing.
The gay friends I've had you ask them how things were with their dad, they know that you're wondering if they had a distant relationship which would have helped direct them to their current state. That said homosexuality as a genetic condition is for some reason promoted by the gay community, many of the gay men I've known will say that they had a great relationship with their dad, when really they had a crappy one they just haven't accepted that fact.

The fact is asking people to give you the basis for their own psyco-evalution is rarely such a wise thing unless they are a very open and honest person. So in more cases you have to read between the lines and see what they won't tell you upfront. This is one of the reasons this sort of topic is so hard to discuss. That said, of all the gay people I went to high school with, and all the ones I have met offline, I have yet to meet one who I could honestly say had a dad that they could know loved em. Thus I'm inclined to take the more psychological approach to the condition and state that I do think homosexual behaviour is the result from what you could call a psychological disorder.
And by that I mean, homosexuals are psychologically out of common order. That said this shouldn't be taken as anything insulting or condescending. Lots of things in life are the result of disorders. For example white people wouldn't be white if it weren't for a genetic disorder that came about a very long time ago. A disorder is not always a bad thing, and taking offence at the word is stupid.
That said if you do research into something other than uninformed gay activist propaganda there's a lot to support the theory that homosexual behaviour is the result of an internalized love deficiency from their own gender, often resulting from a lack of internalized love from their same sex parent. This doesn't mean a gay guy's dad didn't love him, it means that the child had that perceived love connecting severed and it was never fully and healthily repaired. The fact is, most people suffer from a feeling of not being loved, or not being worth being loved. Homosexual behaviour is just one result of this state.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

حثت وزيرة الخارجية الأميركية كوندوليزا رايس لبنان على تطبيق التزاماته الدولية بحذافيرها" وفرض سلطته على أراضيه "حتى تكون هناك سلطة واحدة".وقالت في مؤتمر صحفي مشترك مع رئيس الوزراء اللبناني فؤاد السنيورة بعد سويعات من وصولها بيروت في زيارة مفاجئة إن لبنان يفهم أنه د لديها التزامات دولية وإنه يجب أن تكون هناك سلطة سياسية واحدة, في إشارة واضح
وقد وصلت رئيسة الدبلوماسية الأميركية بيروت قادمة من إسرائيل -وهو طريق غير معتاد للوفود الزائرة والتي تصل عادة عبر دمشق- بعد لقائها صباح اليوم رئيس الحكومة الإسرائيلية أرييل شارون، وستجتمyada yada yadaع مع الرئيس الفلسطيني محمود عباس غدا في رام الله.سوريا والمقاوم
ويعتقد أن دعم سوريا المقاومة اللبنانية كان في صلب محادثات رايس مع المسؤولين اللبنانيين, لكن رئيس وزراء سوريا استبق نتائج الزيارة أمس بتصريح لصحيفة لبنانية قال فيه إن دمشق لن تتخلى عن دعم المقاومة حتى لا يتحول لبنان ملعبا للموساد ولأن نزع سلاحها يضر بأمن بلاده "وهو الاعتبار الأهم" حسب ما نقلت الصحيفة عنهوكان مثيرا للانتباه أن النائب سعد الحريري كان أول من التقتهم رايس عند وصولها قبل أي مسؤول لبناني, ومن ثم قامت برفقته بزيارة ضريح والده رئيس الوزراء الراحل رفيق الحريري حيث وضعت باقة من الزهور.
وقد حيت رايس الحكومة الجديدة واعتبرتها نابعة من صميم الإرادة اللبنانية الحرة, وقالت في تصريح للصحفيين على متن الطائرة قبل وصولها إن واشنطن تتطلع للتعامل معها وتنظر في الطرق التي يمكن للمجموعة الدولية أن تقدم مساعدتها, بينما وصف مسؤول أميركي لحود بأنة إلى سلاح حزب الله الذي قالت إن الموقف الأميركي لم يتغير منه.م أميركي新华网北京７月２３日电（� �者顾钱江　钱春弦）中国人民银行行� ��周小川２３日接受中央电视台“焦点 访谈”节目专访，详细阐述了人民币� �率机制改革的方针、原则、核心内容� ��及影响。وأضافت رايس أن واشنطن تدعم الإصلاحات السياسية في لبنان، ووصفت الإدارة الأميركية
وقد وصلت رئيسة الدبلوماسية الأميركية بيروت قادمة من إسرائيل -وهو طريق غير معتاد للوفود الزائرة والتي تصل عادة عبر دمشق- بعد لقائها صباح اليوم رئيس الحكومة الإسرائيلية أرييل شارون، وستجتمع مع الرئيس الفلسطيني محمود عباس غدا في رام الله.

سوريا والمقاومة
ويعتقد أن دعم سوريا المقاومة اللبنانية كان في صلب محادثات رايس مع المسؤولين bla bla bla blaاللبنانيين, لكن رئيس وزراء سوريا اسblaتبق نتائج الزيارة أمس بتصريح لصحيفة لبنانية قال فيه إن دمشق لن تتخلى عن دعم المقاومة حتى لا يتحول لبنان ملعبا للموساد ولأن نزع سلاحها يضر بأمن بلاده "وهو الاعتبار الأهم" حسب ما نقلت الصحيفة عن新华网北京７月２３日电（记者顾� ��江　钱春弦）中国人民银行行长周小 川２３日接受中央电视台“焦点访谈� �节目专访，详细阐述了人民币汇率机� ��改革的方针、原则、核心内容以及影 响。ه.وكان مثيرا للانتباه أن النائب سعد الحريري كان أول من التقتهم رايس عند وصولها قبل أي مسؤول لبناني, ومن ثم قامت برفقته بزيارة ضريح والده رئيس الوزراء الراحل رفيق الحريري حيث وضعت باقة من الزهور.وقد حيت رايس الحكومة الجديدة واعتبرتها نابعة من صميم الإرادة اللبنانية الحرة, وقالت في تصريح للصحفيين على متن الطائرة قبل وصولها إن واشنطن تتطلع للتعامل معها وتنظر في الطرق التي يمكن للمجموعة الدولية أن تقدم مساعدتها, بينما وصف مسؤول新华网北京７月２３日电（记� ��顾钱江　钱春弦）中国人民银行行长 周小川２３日接受中央电视台“焦点� �谈”节目专访，详细阐述了人民币汇� ��机制改革的方针、原则、核心内容以 及影响。 أميركي لحود بأنبأنها أحسن شريك له في العملية السياسية التي وصفتها بأنها شأن لبناني.وتوقعت أن تكون ما أسمتها مسيرة لبنان نحو التحرر من التأثير الخارجي طويلة لأنه عانى من التدخلات الخارجية لوقت طويل، في إش

??

[kmkkid]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

One reason why you probably don't hear the reasons for gay men becoming gay is because guys are a lot for the most part less inflective than women are, even gay men. Not to mention have you ever had anything that is perceived as wrong about you? I know growing up I was the fat kid, I played every psychological game on myself to tell myself it was OK and even good cause it didn't make me dumb like the skinny kids. Ultimately I was just fooling myself and trying to make myself feel the best I could in a bad situation.
How many people do you know that are ACTUALLY honest with themselves about who they are when they are that person? Sure people will generally be relatively honest about who they used to be when they are not that person. But who they are is a very guarded thing.
The gay friends I've had you ask them how things were with their dad, they know that you're wondering if they had a distant relationship which would have helped direct them to their current state. That said homosexuality as a genetic condition is for some reason promoted by the gay community, many of the gay men I've known will say that they had a great relationship with their dad, when really they had a crappy one they just haven't accepted that fact.

The fact is asking people to give you the basis for their own psyco-evalution is rarely such a wise thing unless they are a very open and honest person. So in more cases you have to read between the lines and see what they won't tell you upfront. This is one of the reasons this sort of topic is so hard to discuss. That said, of all the gay people I went to high school with, and all the ones I have met offline, I have yet to meet one who I could honestly say had a dad that they could know loved em. Thus I'm inclined to take the more psychological approach to the condition and state that I do think homosexual behaviour is the result from what you could call a psychological disorder.
And by that I mean, homosexuals are psychologically out of common order. That said this shouldn't be taken as anything insulting or condescending. Lots of things in life are the result of disorders. For example white people wouldn't be white if it weren't for a genetic disorder that came about a very long time ago. A disorder is not always a bad thing, and taking offence at the word is stupid.
That said if you do research into something other than uninformed gay activist propaganda there's a lot to support the theory that homosexual behaviour is the result of an internalized love deficiency from their own gender, often resulting from a lack of internalized love from their same sex parent. This doesn't mean a gay guy's dad didn't love him, it means that the child had that perceived love connecting severed and it was never fully and healthily repaired. The fact is, most people suffer from a feeling of not being loved, or not being worth being loved. Homosexual behaviour is just one result of this state.

You have absolutly no idea what you're talking about. kthanx. Take your christian propaganda and shove it.

Oh, and was your relationship rocky with your father, and is that why you're gay?

[AKcrab]

[QUOTE=Superchicken]Thus I'm inclined to take the more psychological approach to the condition and state that I do think homosexual behaviour is the result from what you could call a psychological disorder.
And by that I mean, homosexuals are psychologically out of common order. That said this shouldn't be taken as anything insulting or condescending. Lots of things in life are the result of disorders. For example white people wouldn't be white if it weren't for a genetic disorder that came about a very long time ago. A disorder is not always a bad thing, and taking offence at the word is stupid.[quote]
Look up synonyms for 'disorder'. You get things like 'ailment, illness, disease'... Yep, no reason to get upset with that.

That said if you do research into something other than uninformed gay activist propaganda there's a lot to support the theory that homosexual behaviour is the result of an internalized love deficiency from their own gender, often resulting from a lack of internalized love from their same sex parent. This doesn't mean a gay guy's dad didn't love him, it means that the child had that perceived love connecting severed and it was never fully and healthily repaired. The fact is, most people suffer from a feeling of not being loved, or not being worth being loved. Homosexual behaviour is just one result of this state.

So all the actual real-life homosexuals in this thread are simply in denial, and you (a straight guy) know what they are *really* about?

That's like me trying to tell you all about religion. I can't, cause I don't know much about it, being not very religious myself.

[Superchicken]

I thought you all just assumed I was gay?

Anyway, synonyms often get to be that way because of the connotations of the words. I am not suggesting that homosexuality is a disease or an illness. Honestly I believe that it's the result of certain areas of a person's self image and self understanding being hurt during development. Unless the gay people you know are significantly different than the ones I know you'll see a disproportionate amount of pain, rejection etc in those lives, compared to the average person. Now is this to say that every gay person is gay because of those reasons. No. However I do think that people fitting the bill I described make up a very large chunk of homosexual people in North America. It's also worth noting that in other societies with other social values and what not you will see far fewer numbers of homosexual males, not simply because homosexuality is not an acceptable practice there.
IMHO The North American culture is a great place to raise up a homosexual child, where else can someone feel so alone and unloved?

[kmkkid]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

I thought you all just assumed I was gay?

Anyway, synonyms often get to be that way because of the connotations of the words. I am not suggesting that homosexuality is a disease or an illness. Honestly I believe that it's the result of certain areas of a person's self image and self understanding being hurt during development. Unless the gay people you know are significantly different than the ones I know you'll see a disproportionate amount of pain, rejection etc in those lives, compared to the average person. Now is this to say that every gay person is gay because of those reasons. No. However I do think that people fitting the bill I described make up a very large chunk of homosexual people in North America. It's also worth noting that in other societies with other social values and what not you will see far fewer numbers of homosexual males, not simply because homosexuality is not an acceptable practice there.
IMHO The North American culture is a great place to raise up a homosexual child, where else can someone feel so alone and unloved?

Wow, have you ever thought that the reasons gays go through turmoil is because they are gay, and not the turmoil that makes them gay?

Seems about right to me.

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Unless the gay people you know are significantly different than the ones I know you'll see a disproportionate amount of pain, rejection etc in those lives, compared to the average person.

I worked in a Performing Arts Center Ticket Office for more than 10 years. I met a LOT of homosexual folks, and in fact my boss, and my assistant manager were both homosexual, which often time led to at least half the staff being homosexual. They are well adjusted, happy, and fun loving. Most of them are much more creative than a lot of heterosexual people I know, and much more outgoing.

I'm thinking perhaps that the way you view homosexuality makes you dig for "reasons" and clouds your judgment. Also, the fact that you do so much work counseling youngsters would lead you to the homosexual kids that indeed have problems (probably indirectly related to homosexuality).

[deej5871]

Originally Posted by Oisín

I've known for as long as I can remember that it just would not make any sense in my mind to find women sexually attractive (I have specific memories of being consciously aware of this before the age of 5).

I didn't want to get involved in this thread, but I've gotta call bullsh*t here. Ask any 5 year old boy if they want to even kiss the opposite sex, and I'm sure you'll get an "Ewww...gross". I'm sure in there minds at they time they don't see how anyone could find women attractive, but they do change when they hit puberty. I don't think you having never found women attractive is evidence that gayness wasn't a choice for you. I mean, if we go by the theory from others in this thread that a sexual experience too early will make someone very likely to be gay, then of course it would seem like they never liked the opposite sex. They didn't like them before the experience, and the experience itself made them not like them afterwards, then why would they ever like women?

Not really a big point, just a nitpick. Rant over.

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by kmkkid

Wow, have you ever thought that the reasons gays go through turmoil is because they are gay, and not the turmoil that makes them gay?

Seems about right to me.

I think it often is a bit of a cycle. But if you ask most gay people you know when their life started getting hard it wasn't just when they started feeling feelings for someone else of the same gender, it tends to be before that. My best friend from grade 7 I've found out since that he's come out (I gota go out for coffee with him some time but I keep forgetting to get his current phone # off a mutual friend) and his life was seriously screwed before either of us even knew that women had three holes and guys only had two... or that the drawing of the woman on the sex ed overhead looked just like his mom.

[kmkkid]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

I think it often is a bit of a cycle. But if you ask most gay people you know when their life started getting hard it wasn't just when they started feeling feelings for someone else of the same gender, it tends to be before that. My best friend from grade 7 I've found out since that he's come out (I gota go out for coffee with him some time but I keep forgetting to get his current phone # off a mutual friend) and his life was seriously screwed before either of us even knew that women had three holes and guys only had two... or that the drawing of the woman on the sex ed overhead looked just like his mom.

Try to refrain from saying 'most gays' when it's obvious you dont know that many or that many 'normal' ones at least. I on the otherhand know MANY gays and most have never had family problems.

[budster101]

Bi-post.

[budster101]

That's true. My gay cousin had a great family life, and he's still a psych job.

[Superchicken]

You sure he had a great family life? Most people who come from stable families aren't normally the one's we'd refer to as psych jobs. By the way it's one thing to say someone came from a great family, however who's to say what I think of when I say good family is what you're thinking of?

[wolfen]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

You sure he had a great family life? Most people who come from stable families aren't normally the one's we'd refer to as psych jobs. By the way it's one thing to say someone came from a great family, however who's to say what I think of when I say good family is what you're thinking of?

Superchicken...you're young and I try to leave you alone for that.

I was a mega-jerk for most of my life, and had a lot of ideas that seemed rational to me that were actually representative of an unwillingness to relate to my fellow man. Relating means we see who he really is, not who we reason that he is or must be.

You are in danger of making some of those same mistakes. You should be allowed the freedom to make them. But perhaps you also might also make use of resources I did not have. Namely -- someone like me willing to tell you what you're doing wrong.

Spiritual aptitude can be a beautiful thing. But it is not a substitute for experience. When you're discussing matters with the idea that things must be this or that way, you have lost sight of this fact. When we superimpose our understanding upon a thing we have no personal experience with, we immediately limit our comprehension of what is actually taking place. We limit our ability to see how God truly works because we're entrenched in thoughts of how things must work. In effect, we keep God in a box of our making.

It may be a fancy little jewelry box of exquisite design, but it's still got to go.

[Kerrigan]

Super Chicken, we have to know once and for all:

are you gay or are you straight?

You have dropped thousands of millions of hints that you might be gay, not simply in this thread but in pretty much every over gay-themed thread you have participated in. I think you owe us all a decisive answer!

Don't worry, we aren't going to report you to your Bible college if you're gay!

[HawgJawl]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Super Chicken, we have to know once and for all:

are you gay or are you straight?

You have dropped thousands of millions of hints that you might be gay, not simply in this thread but in pretty much every over gay-themed thread you have participated in. I think you owe us all a decisive answer!

Don't worry, we aren't going to report you to your Bible college if you're gay!

[budster101]

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by HawgJawl

that's what I'm thinking, but we should let him answer

[Superchicken]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Super Chicken, we have to know once and for all:

are you gay or are you straight?

You have dropped thousands of millions of hints that you might be gay, not simply in this thread but in pretty much every over gay-themed thread you have participated in. I think you owe us all a decisive answer!

Don't worry, we aren't going to report you to your Bible college if you're gay!

Now where would the fun be in that? As a rule, I enjoy walking a contradictory line between being completely upfront and honest, yet never giving people enough information to have a clue about me It's pretty fun.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by deej5871

I didn't want to get involved in this thread, but I've gotta call bullsh*t here. Ask any 5 year old boy if they want to even kiss the opposite sex, and I'm sure you'll get an "Ewww...gross". I'm sure in there minds at they time they don't see how anyone could find women attractive, but they do change when they hit puberty. I don't think you having never found women attractive is evidence that gayness wasn't a choice for you. I mean, if we go by the theory from others in this thread that a sexual experience too early will make someone very likely to be gay, then of course it would seem like they never liked the opposite sex. They didn't like them before the experience, and the experience itself made them not like them afterwards, then why would they ever like women?

Not really a big point, just a nitpick. Rant over.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying—I wasn't saying that I had any particularly sexual thoughts at that time (though I was aware of my sexuality very early on). It just didn't make any sense for me that I should ever have any sexual thoughts about women; it made much more sense, even then, that I should (at some point) have sexual thoughts about men. Or not even sexual thoughts, just... y'know...

Hmm... it's hard to explain exactly what I mean...

It was just the basic thing of seeing two people kiss in movies and stuff. I was always wondering why it was always a guy and a girl kissing, never two guys or two girls. Not just wondering for the sake of wondering (like, “Hmm, I wonder why it's like this...”), but more like being dissatisfied with it (like, “Argh, why don't they ever..?”). Sorta...


This barely coherent rant/attempt-at-explanation was brought to you by the disadvantages of being very bad at explaining one's own state of mind, with a special appearance by being hampered by limited access to own state of mind at the age of 5.

[Warung]

Originally Posted by wolfen

I've already been allowing for genetics. I am not speaking in absolutes. (you are)

No, I'm not! But I am speaking about a rather broad spectrum here in terms of genetic PREDISPOSITION, where on one end you have a rather weak (or no inclination at all) to be attracted to the same sex, and in that case, I don't believe that any kind of experience in real life would "turn" you gay, and on the other end you have a pretty strong predisposition, and no matter what you encounter will make you interested in the opposite sex.

Originally Posted by wolfen

Right now, it's your mental model vs. my psychology courses, 12+ sexually abused family members and friends, & my 20+ gay friends and co-workers over the years. I have to respectfully disagree with most of your conclusions. I have a very objective view in all this (my views have shifted substantially over the past 20 years -- changed with new information.)

So do I. I haven't counted all the gay people I have met in my life (at least 1 family member), BUT I have talked to quite a few of them about their "motivations" (bad word, - I don't mean as in "conscious choice" motivation, but more as in "how they found out"...)to become gay, and I must say, not a single one came from an abusive (family) background (or at least they didn't tell me about that part). As a matter of fact they had all different kinds of upbringing, some conservative, some liberal, some single parent some completely intact picture book families...the only thing they all shared is that a rather young age they already felt attracted to the same sex.

I'm not saying that abusive experiences can't play a role in a person's sexual orientation, BUT in regards to the argument that people can actually be turned gay (like so many seem to think by watching the Teletubbies, the media in general or coming in contact with gay people) is completely alarmist, stupid and in the end VERY ignorant.

Originally Posted by wolfen

The point is you're still looking at this thing in terms of absolutes. "Determining" is a word that connotes an absolute.

I already mentioned this above, - in SOME cases you have (I believe) a rather strong predisposition as to almost be able to talk about a "determining" factor.

Originally Posted by wolfen

Are you at least hearing me when I say there are few absolutes, and mostly doors that we are more and less willing to open?

And that's where I think you are wrong, - I DON'T believe it's a conscious choice people make. Again, different grades of pre-dispositions PLUS experiences and maybe some other factors.

Originally Posted by wolfen

I'm not saying that the experiences determined that these people would be gay. Only that the experiences pushed hard on doors that might not otherwise have been opened.

Yes, I agree.

Originally Posted by wolfen

Certain choices (like engaging in anal sex) are a lot easier to make if you've already been through it.

Well, like I (and others) have said before, - it's not about the "sexual" act, it's about who you are "attracted to".

Originally Posted by wolfen

You can learn to feel a depth of appreciation for the same sex that society at large is unwilling to embrace.

Interesting point. I wonder if this is then the same as "really" being gay though...

Originally Posted by wolfen

As for your gods of genetics : My education, training, and life experience do not support your mental model. In short, I think you're reasoning logically about something you don't have enough data or experience with.

That may very well be the case, but so far you are the ONLY person I know who makes these sort of claims (or maybe I'm just not understanding you correctly). Maybe you are simply inferring something here, that really isn't necessarily there, which in turn could be clouding your perception of the issue at hand.

But then I could be completely wrong here, sure...

The topic of this thread though is, wether homosexuality constitutes a "mental DISORDER"(a pathology). I completely disagree with this notion.

The other question is "wether you can actually choose to be gay", and here I would say that for everybody I have known in my life (gay or straight) it wasn't a CONSCIOUS choice. And I believe if a pre-dispositon and attraction is there, it would be UNHEALTHY to go against it.

Originally Posted by wolfen

You've got a lot of preconceptions clouding your approach to the discussion. Your wanting simple answers. With no judgment at all I request you look at your own motivations for resolving this intellectual exercise. What do you want to find? More importantly, why?

I'm actually more interested in psychology, humanism and "anthropology" in general (not that I don't take personal relationships and what people relay to me very seriously, even on an emotional level). Plus, this is part of public discourse in many different societies.

I am a strong believer that somebody else's freedom, is my freedom as well. That's why (unfounded) discrimination doesn't fly with me very well.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Super Chicken, we have to know once and for all:

are you gay or are you straight?

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Now where would the fun be in that? As a rule, I enjoy walking a contradictory line between being completely upfront and honest, yet never giving people enough information to have a clue about me It's pretty fun.

Gayest. Answer. Ever.