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This article kinda offends me
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KeriVit
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Aug 25, 2007, 05:45 PM
 
Apple Cult: Drinking the Kool-Aid

I just don't think I'm like the Mac user the guy describes. Maybe you are?
     
Cold Warrior
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Aug 25, 2007, 06:24 PM
 
He's a fanboy on a site for the Zune. I wouldn't expect any less.
     
C.A.T.S. CEO
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Aug 25, 2007, 06:34 PM
 
Did the article or the comments offend you?
Signature depreciated.
     
KeriVit  (op)
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Aug 25, 2007, 06:54 PM
 
I just don't go tryin to convince people to buy Macs, I don't have back and forth debates about Mac vs Windows, etc.

Not to mention being compared to a cult that killed 900+ people.
     
Chuckit
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Aug 25, 2007, 07:58 PM
 
The dude can't even get his timeline straight (he implies that the QuickTake was released after Jobs' return, around the same time as the iPod!). Is this really somebody whose opinion you value highly enough to be hurt by it?
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alligator
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Aug 25, 2007, 08:45 PM
 
I'm not sure about you, but when I find something better than average, I like to keep it for myself. Yes, when asked, I'll explain to people why Macs are better than an equivalent PC, but in general, if the PC people want to keep drinking the Microsoft "Kool-Aid," then so be it. Those of us who have found the Apple platform better than the alternatives can just keep this to ourselves. Apple is in no danger of going out of business. I like my Macs, and I'll continue to buy them if the quality and performance is there.
     
mitchell_pgh
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Aug 25, 2007, 08:51 PM
 
I was using a Mac when the author was still in diapers.
     
goMac
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Aug 25, 2007, 10:09 PM
 
If you talk to a Macintosh user he or will eventually try to sell you a Mac. They will tell you how superior the Macintosh is over the PC.
Yeah. I just can't help myself.

Stupid egotistical PC users.
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zro
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Aug 25, 2007, 11:21 PM
 
It doesn't offend me. Just another dummy with a half baked preconceived opinion that matches what he's trying to rant about. I do find it unfortunate that he'll undoubtedly be able to spread his FUD far and wide to cheers from the moron gallery. Hell, it got posted here, it's spreading very well already.
     
KeriVit  (op)
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Aug 26, 2007, 12:40 AM
 
Sorry. I don't get out much.


How many people remember the Kool Aid thing?
     
zro
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Aug 26, 2007, 01:41 AM
 
I wasn't trying to wag my finger at you, really. This type of stuff gets posted at Mac sites all the time. Plus it is entertaining in a repulsive kind of way. Kinda like watching a dog eat it's own vomit.
     
highstakes
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Aug 26, 2007, 02:41 AM
 
He talked about the success of the Xbox, but forget to mention the recent $1b loss alone for 360-repair/warranty extension
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Chuckit
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Aug 26, 2007, 02:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by KeriVit View Post
Sorry. I don't get out much.


How many people remember the Kool Aid thing?
Even people who remember the Kool-Aid thing usually aren't thinking about it when they use the saying, and this guy looks like 18.
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Kevin
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Aug 26, 2007, 08:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by alligator View Post
I'm not sure about you, but when I find something better than average, I like to keep it for myself. Yes, when asked, I'll explain to people why Macs are better than an equivalent PC, but in general, if the PC people want to keep drinking the Microsoft "Kool-Aid," then so be it. Those of us who have found the Apple platform better than the alternatives can just keep this to ourselves. Apple is in no danger of going out of business. I like my Macs, and I'll continue to buy them if the quality and performance is there.
Yeah unless someone asks, or someone else is making ridiculously outdated slams on Apple I rarely say anything. I use OS X because it's the best for what I do. If something better/cheaper came out, I would be all over it.

Fanboys usually don't hang out on Apple boards. They hang out in say PC boards and preach the word. PC zealots hang out in Mac boards to the same thing, same with Linux users.

I have no desire to go on a PC board, or Linux board (bored?) and talk about Macs for some reason.

It makes one look zealous and insecure.
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Even people who remember the Kool-Aid thing usually aren't thinking about it when they use the saying, and this guy looks like 18.
He looks like your typical Welcome to Ihateapple.net Forums poster.
     
Super Mario
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Aug 26, 2007, 08:35 AM
 
That type of Mac user was widespread on these boards before MacIntel. It was even worse years ago. We had Macidiots who would argue for ours the merits of co-operative multi-tasking over pre-emptive multi-tasking, how the G4 was five times faster than a Pentium III, and how amazingly stable OS 9 was compared to NT. Much more respect these days between Mac and Windows guys.
( Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:47 PM. )
     
Kevin
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Aug 26, 2007, 09:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Super Mario View Post
That type of Mac user was widespread on these boards before MacIntel.
Huh? Most fanboys have been made fun of for awhile now. WAAY before The Mactel deal.
It was even worse years ago. We had Macidiots who would argue for ours
For your what?
how the G4 was five times faster than a Pentium III,
Those people usually got made fun of in here too.. as I remember.
and how amazingly stable OS 9 was compared to NT. Much more respect these days between Mac and Windows guys.
Stable meaning over-all stableness. OS 9 had less PROBLEMS over all than NT did.

NT was praised as the "Crashless OS" At the time I worked for a company and used both NT and OS 9. They both went down just as much. NT with the blue screens, and OS 9 with the stoopit "restart" window that never worked.
     
Super Mario
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Aug 26, 2007, 10:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
For your what?
LOL. Yeah I lost all rhoticity in my accent so hours has become ours.

Stable meaning over-all stableness. OS 9 had less PROBLEMS over all than NT did.
Nah OS 9 was ****. It was easy to use **** but I couldn't do a damn thing properly except type in it without it crashing. In my NT 4 box the thing was running Premiere, After Effects and Photoshop side by side smoothly without a crash. All the PCI and AGP slots were taken up too. Good days. I had a Matrox Mystique in the AGP, Creative Voodoo 2 SLI in two PCIs, Creative Encore DVD in another PCI, Creative Soundblaster Live! in another PCI, and Creative PCI-TV card in the last PCI. Yeah I really liked Creative in those days. All 5 PCIs taken up and machine was solid stable thanks to Creative NT drivers
( Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:47 PM. )
     
Oisín
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Aug 26, 2007, 10:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Super Mario
LOL. Yeah I lost all rhoticity in my accent so hours has become ours.




(In my experience, NT is very much a hit-and-miss system. For me personally, it was mostly hit—I used it for about two years and it was by far the most stable version of Windows I’d ever used before XP, excepting perhaps 3.1/3.11, which I didn’t use intensely enough to really give much reason to crash—but for others, it seems to have notoriously unstable and flaky. Conversely, 2000 and Me were absolutely horrible for me—Me literally crashed on me within 10 seconds of installing it and rebooting—but they seem to have been the apotheosis of stability for others I know)
     
Super Mario
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Aug 26, 2007, 10:42 AM
 
The 3dfx Glide drivers were really good for gaming on NT 4.0. Much faster than Windows 95/98 or W2K. NT didn't have USB support. That was the only reason I upgraded to W2K...and the cheap price for full OEM version.

Correction. My PCI TV card was by Pinnacle.
( Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:47 PM. )
     
Chuckit
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Aug 26, 2007, 11:18 AM
 
It seems like most Mac users in the OS 9 days would have been comparing it to Windows 98 or Windows ME, not Windows NT.
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Aug 26, 2007, 11:31 AM
 
hehehe "IBM PC or clone." Was this written in the 90s and reposted?

-Owl
     
Kevin
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Aug 27, 2007, 04:48 AM
 
Nah OS 9 was ****. It was easy to use **** but I couldn't do a damn thing properly except type in it without it crashing.
We obviously had different OS 9 boxes. One I used at work up until 2 years ago.
In my NT 4 box the thing was running Premiere, After Effects and Photoshop side by side smoothly without a crash. All the PCI and AGP slots were taken up too. Good days. I had a Matrox Mystique in the AGP, Creative Voodoo 2 SLI in two PCIs, Creative Encore DVD in another PCI, Creative Soundblaster Live! in another PCI, and Creative PCI-TV card in the last PCI. Yeah I really liked Creative in those days. All 5 PCIs taken up and machine was solid stable thanks to Creative NT drivers
What does that have to do with stability? NT went down and blue screened as much as my OS 9 box did.
     
Super Mario
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Aug 27, 2007, 05:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
What does that have to do with stability? NT went down and blue screened as much as my OS 9 box did.
No way. Not for me. OS 9 froze or bombed a few times a week. NT 4 I'm not sure but over a year it might have BSOD twice. Or once. Stable as hell. A typical install was 40MBs before installing apps, drivers and IE4 (which grabbed 20MBs). You can find Virtual PC images of it on the net. If the thing had a firewall, usb support and a modern secure browser it might be the cleanest most stable OS to date despite lacking in modern features. I enjoyed it a lot and look back on it with fondness because it was the only thing available that made me truly productive.
( Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:48 PM. )
     
Kevin
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Aug 27, 2007, 05:58 AM
 
Again it varies. It seems through reading the thread since NT4 was brought up, more people in here had the same experiences with it as I did. It sure didn't like Photoshop all that well.

I also loved how when you dragged the mouse from the "outer windows shell" to the pic it turned from a Windows looking mouse, to a Mac looking one.

at the time Photoshop was still just a horrible port to the Windows side.
     
Super Mario
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Aug 27, 2007, 07:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Again it varies. It seems through reading the thread since NT4 was brought up, more people in here had the same experiences with it as I did. It sure didn't like Photoshop all that well.
I don't know what you mean. I had Photoshop, Premiere and After Effects and all of em ran perfect. Ran better than they would on a Mac at the time because NT4's preemptive multitasking and SMP (I had dual PIIIs) ran circles around Mac OS's cooperative multitasking and crude SMP plugins.
( Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:48 PM. )
     
Kevin
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Aug 27, 2007, 07:30 AM
 
Again, I am just telling you MY experience. I wont even go into how Quark "worked"
     
GuillaumeB
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Aug 27, 2007, 11:34 AM
 
I Just met the author of this article, took out my gun, shot him dead.
My website
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MBP 15" - 4GB RAM
     
lpkmckenna
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Aug 27, 2007, 02:01 PM
 
The Apple Pippin is a fine example of Apple’s failure to enter a market. The Apple Pippin was Apple’s failed attempt to get into the gaming industry in 1995. Apple failed miserably selling only 5,000 consoles. It was so bad that in May 2006, the Apple Pippin was selected as one of the “25 Worst Tech Products of all Time” by PC World Magazine. In 2001, Microsoft successfully entered the gaming market with its launch of the Xbox and is now closing in on 10 million subscribers to its Xbox live internet platform. Again, where Apple’s management failed Microsoft’s management succeeded.
The MS entertainment wing is hemorrhaging billions of dollars. I'm not sure that counts as "succeeded."
     
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Aug 27, 2007, 02:11 PM
 
The cool kids own a Mac and the mindless followers of “Corporate America” own an IBM PC or clone. We are smart you are dumb.
I get this attitude too frequently on MacNN. It's the "if that's the way you want to think, you can just go back to your shitty PC and pretend like Windows is better, loser" attitude that I've absolutely seen here. I honestly doubt that many regulars on this forum are of the "there's room for everyone in the computer world" mindset; it's more about Macs beating Windows and Mac being better than Windows, and WIndows users being stupid or "too scared to convert to Mac".

The average Apple computer cult member believes that they are smarter and more sophisticated than the average Neanderthal that uses an “IBM” style PC.
So you don't think you're smarter or better than Windows users because you "saw the light" and bought a Mac? Just asking...

The perception that Microsoft and IBM are Corporate America and Apple Inc. is “the good guy” fighting Corporate America is silly, but successful marketing on Apple’s part.
I know several die-hard Mac users who truly believe that Steve Jobs has their best interests (not the bottom dollar and the interests of the stockholders) at heart - that he really doesn't want DRM (instead of seeing his "open letter about DRM" as the blatant PR move that it was) and that he really doesn't care about market share and just cares about "bringing good hardware to good people". Apple is just another faceless corporation; they just have an extremely attractive and trendy appearance to their consumers. It's like trying to say that Starbucks is a good guy and not "big business", because of their marketing and the way they train their employees.

The truth is that Apple, Netscape and other corporations where actually the monopoly or leader in their market and Microsoft and other competitors beat them through better management and cheaper products.
Absolutey. Apple developed a UI based on Xerox's prototype before Microsoft did, but Microsoft beat them to the product release and set lower price points, which over time meant that Apple lost extremely valuable market share. You can't exactly deny this..

Apple lost the PC War for two main reasons. First, IBM made a cheaper computer and Bill Gates wrote software that people wanted to use. Second, Apple’s management was at war with each other and made foolish decisions like leaving a cooling fan out of a computer (doh!). There was no evil conspiracy or illegal tactics involved, just bad management.
IIRC Apple's had some serious drama inside the company, especially back in the early days. Bill Gates got out of the starting gate first, and as a result Apple lost momentum, had internal problems, and released too much failed hardware. Again, none of this is opinion. It's just how it happened.

I'm not going to get into the Zune vs. iPod thing. Apple certainly has the hold on the DAP market right now because of the insane success of the iPod, similar to how Sony has had a hold on the gaming market since the release of the PlayStation 2 (which you know must be successful if they're still releasing new games for it). I doubt the Zune will overtake the iPod market, but if Apple moves to iPods that don't have the scroll wheel (like the iPhone's interface), they are absolutely shooting themselves in the collective foot. The scroll wheel is the one thing that sets apart the iPod from the competitors - that and the poor saps who were stupid enough to buy DRM-laced music from iTunes that only plays on Apple's hardware. There are other viable competitors to the iPod - I bought my ex a Sansa e240 for his birthday, and he loves it. It's absolutely as easy to use as an iPod, and has more features and more space for the money. Creative has released some nice players as well. I'm not a fan of the larger Zen Vision, but the smaller ones are easy to use and plenty sexy.

That article isn't offensive at all. It points out sometimes fatal mistakes made by Apple in its history, and rightfully calls out Mac cultists as having an ego complex about what brand of computer they use. The only way to break a stereotype is to not fall into it, and right now the majority of Mac users fall into the "drank the Kool-Aid, now I'm better than you" stereotype that is easily placed on the Mac "community". If I can find a group of Mac users who do not fall back on stereotypical responses like "it's because you're using Windows" or "go back to Windows, loser, OS X is too good for you", then maybe I'll change my opinions. At this point, though, it's just the way things are.

I like my iBook all right, but I'll never fall into the mentality that I'm better than someone because of what hardware I choose to buy, and I'll always respect the fact that there is room for every OS in the computer industry.
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Laminar
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Aug 27, 2007, 02:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
I like my iBook all right, but I'll never fall into the mentality that I'm better than someone because of what hardware I choose to buy, and I'll always respect the fact that there is room for every OS in the computer industry.
But you're fine having the mentality that "I'm better than these poor saps who don't have enough self awareness to realize that they're idiots."
     
shifuimam
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Aug 27, 2007, 02:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
But you're fine having the mentality that "I'm better than these poor saps who don't have enough self awareness to realize that they're idiots."
I'd say that I think I have a slightly less skewed viewpoint on the OS wars - not that I'm particularly better than anyone else. I use OS X, Linux, and Windows. I like them all, and each has certain purposes I use it for. I use Linux to learn how to use a UNIX-based CLI to do work, which is handy when looking into sysadmin type work. I use OS X to work with OS X-only applications and learn how to use the OS (again, to broaden my abilities as an IT-oriented employee). I use Windows to manage my data, like my music and my digital pictures, and I run Photoshop on it (seriously, that's all I use my desktop for anymore - Photoshop and file storage). I'm not "better" than anyone else - in fact, I tend to think that I am better than nobody in anything.

I just think that it's unfortunate that the same people who get offended or upset when someone stereotypes a group are usually the same people who fall into (and thereby openly reinforce) that same stereotype. The same thing can be applied to Mac users, ghetto "thug" black culture, promiscuity in the sorority girl/frat boy crowd, stupidity in jocks, etc.

The only way to break a stereotype is to quit reinforcing it and deliberately go against it. The first part of that article pointed out general Mac user stereotypes that are too frequently fulfilled by the Mac "community". The second part pointed out Apple's shortcomings and mistakes as a corporation. The only part I really disagree with is the third part, where he starts to think that the Zune might overtake the iPod in market share. I'm not dumb enough to agree with that one...
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lpkmckenna
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Aug 27, 2007, 02:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
That article isn't offensive at all.
Actually, your post is more offensive than that article.

I honestly doubt that many regulars on this forum are of the "there's room for everyone in the computer world" mindset.
I'm one of them.

it's more about Macs beating Windows and Mac being better than Windows, and WIndows users being stupid or "too scared to convert to Mac".
I don't think Windows users are stupid, but I do think Macs are better for most things.

I know several die-hard Mac users who truly believe that Steve Jobs has their best interests (not the bottom dollar and the interests of the stockholders) at heart
I think Steve wants Apple to make products they can be proud of, and that customers will want to buy such products.

- that he really doesn't want DRM (instead of seeing his "open letter about DRM" as the blatant PR move that it was)
It wasn't just PR. And Jobs isn't against DRM. He wanted to dump DRM for music so it could compete with CDs. He's not against DRM for movies, because DVDs are also DRM-laden.

Apple is just another faceless corporation.
Apple is the opposite of a faceless corporation.

Absolutey. Apple developed a UI based on Xerox's prototype before Microsoft did, but Microsoft beat them to the product release and set lower price points, which over time meant that Apple lost extremely valuable market share. You can't exactly deny this..
I can deny it when it's not exactly true. You're missing most of the important details.

IIRC Apple's had some serious drama inside the company, especially back in the early days. Bill Gates got out of the starting gate first, and as a result Apple lost momentum, had internal problems, and released too much failed hardware. Again, none of this is opinion. It's just how it happened.
Ok, that's all true. But the fundamental reason that Windows became so successful is that IBM didn't insist on an exclusive license. More than anything else, that fact is the source of Windows' success. You'll notice that this didn't work out too well for IBM.

I doubt the Zune will overtake the iPod market, but if Apple moves to iPods that don't have the scroll wheel (like the iPhone's interface), they are absolutely shooting themselves in the collective foot. The scroll wheel is the one thing that sets apart the iPod from the competitors...
I think you underestimate multi-touch.

- that and the poor saps who were stupid enough to buy DRM-laced music from iTunes that only plays on Apple's hardware.
I'm not a poor sap, and I'm not stupid.

The only way to break a stereotype is to not fall into it, and right now the majority of Mac users fall into the "drank the Kool-Aid, now I'm better than you" stereotype that is easily placed on the Mac "community".
I don't personally know a single Mac user who is like this. Brand loyalty is one thing, drinking the cool-aid is something else.
     
lpkmckenna
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Aug 27, 2007, 02:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
I just think that it's unfortunate that the same people who get offended or upset when someone stereotypes a group are usually the same people who fall into (and thereby openly reinforce) that same stereotype.
Uh, no, not usually.

The same thing can be applied to Mac users, ghetto "thug" black culture, promiscuity in the sorority girl/frat boy crowd, stupidity in jocks, etc.
Try to stay on topic, ok?

The only way to break a stereotype is to quit reinforcing it and deliberately go against it.
Um, so the only way to break a stereotype is for the victims to change?
     
zro
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Aug 27, 2007, 03:21 PM
 
What did I tell you?
     
Kevin
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Aug 27, 2007, 03:38 PM
 
Windows got more accepted because it came on MORE computers. EOMs were given an option to bundle EVERY PC they owned with DOS for a cheap price, or pay a HUGE sum of money for each separate license.

People rarely bought OSs that didn't COME with the computer, therefore MSs DOS was used the most. I think some deals were even shadier than that.. and the GOV put a stop to it in the late 80s early 90s. But by then the damage was done.
     
Super Mario
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Aug 27, 2007, 04:51 PM
 
It is now 1997.

The last ten years did not happen.
You will now carry on a discussion exactly where you left off a decade ago.
The last ten years did not happen.
You are under the power of the all seeing eyes.

It is now 1997.
( Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:49 PM. )
     
KeriVit  (op)
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Aug 27, 2007, 06:30 PM
 
This thread lost me at...

Originally Posted by Super Mario View Post
The 3dfx Glide drivers were really good for gaming on NT 4.0. Much faster than Windows 95/98 or W2K. NT didn't have USB support. That was the only reason I upgraded to W2K...and the cheap price for full OEM version.

Correction. My PCI TV card was by Pinnacle.
I'm so confused now.
     
Kevin
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Aug 28, 2007, 05:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Super Mario View Post
It is now 1997.

The last ten years did not happen.
You will now carry on a discussion exactly where you left off a decade ago.
The last ten years did not happen.
You are under the power of the all seeing eyes.

It is now 1997.
That's MS's Mantra.
     
   
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