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Mallrat · Jan 11, 2006, 04:24 AM

I'm surprised that apple is still selling their "old" powerbooks at the same prices.

I understand still offering them, but how can they keep them at the same price?

What is their reasoning?

uicandrew · Jan 11, 2006, 05:12 AM

because there are no 17 or 12 inch intel macbooks. Also, people are often reluctant to buy the first revision, so they'll buy the "proven" old g4 powerbook. And with the amount of complaining over the new MacBook, some people might actually prefer the more ports that are offered by the old G4 powerbooks

and it is a transition, not a sudden switch.

wowway1 · Jan 11, 2006, 10:32 AM

not to mention the new books aren't even available yet.

mduell · Jan 11, 2006, 03:41 PM

Gives us an idea of the relative cost of G4 and P6 chips.

mduell · Jan 11, 2006, 06:36 PM

D'oh!

Big Mac · Jan 11, 2006, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

Gives us an idea of the relative cost of G4 and P6 chips.

P6? Who's calling it that?

mduell · 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

P6? Who's calling it that?

Everybody.
P5 is the Pentium core. P6 is the Pentium Pro, Pentium II, Pentium !!!, Pentium M, and Core Solo/Duo core. P7 is the Pentium 4/Pentium D core. P8 is the next generation "Intel core" core for Merom/Conroe.

Lateralus · Jan 11, 2006, 10:57 PM

How in the world does this reflect on P6 pricing in the slightest?

mduell · Jan 12, 2006, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by Lateralus

How in the world does this reflect on P6 pricing in the slightest?

A dual 1.66Ghz P6 system is the same price as a single 1.67Ghz G4 system.

Tomchu · Jan 12, 2006, 12:47 AM

There have been many, many architectural changes to the P6 core since the Pentium III. The Centrino stuff was already a huge step forward, combining some of the good technologies from the Pentium 4 into the Pentium III design. The Yonah can be called next-generation, and hence, I wouldn't hesitate to call it a "P8".

mduell · Jan 12, 2006, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by Tomchu

There have been many, many architectural changes to the P6 core since the Pentium III. The Centrino stuff was already a huge step forward, combining some of the good technologies from the Pentium 4 into the Pentium III design. The Yonah can be called next-generation, and hence, I wouldn't hesitate to call it a "P8".

I didn't mean to imply that Core Duo was just a clocked up Pentium Pro, but it would be disingenuous and confusing if you call Yonah a P8; Merom will be P8.

Simon · Jan 12, 2006, 01:41 AM

don't mind

Lateralus · Jan 12, 2006, 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by mduell

A dual 1.66Ghz P6 system is the same price as a single 1.67Ghz G4 system.

1.67GHz 7447As are only around $100 in quantities of 1,000 from Freescale.

Tomchu · Jan 12, 2006, 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by mduell

I didn't mean to imply that Core Duo was just a clocked up Pentium Pro, but it would be disingenuous and confusing if you call Yonah a P8; Merom will be P8.

My reasoning behind this is that a Pentium M is like a P7.5 (P7 being the crappy Pentium 4). The Yonah adds another batch of significant advances over the Pentium M, as well as a second core. This warrants another "0.5" in terms of generation.

Considering how much changed going from P6 --> Pentium M, and how much changed again going from Pentium M --> Yonah, it's silly not to give it a generation bump.

inkhead · Jan 12, 2006, 05:43 AM

For the last time people, get it through your heads, this "intel" mac book just released is a "TRANSITIONAL" machine, it's not meant to replace the powerbook lineup or the ibook lineup just yet

There will be new "mac book pros" before june that officially replace the powerbooks.

This machine is for earlier adapters and to get the ball rolling for the transition. It's not meant to replace a powerbook!!!

Simon · Jan 12, 2006, 06:56 AM

I'm not so sure about that. I wouldn't be surprised to see the new 13.3" widescreen iBook (MacBook) and the 17" Mac Book Pro appear within 4 months and at the same time not one single change done on the current MacBook Pro. This model might well stick around till Q3 when Intel starts shipping the improved Yonahs.

Eriamjh · Jan 12, 2006, 08:13 AM

This MacBook could be the "Kanga" of the Mac-Intel line. Watch support get dropped like a rock from Apple within 3 years. The same could be true of the new iMac.

mduell · Jan 12, 2006, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by Tomchu

My reasoning behind this is that a Pentium M is like a P7.5 (P7 being the crappy Pentium 4). The Yonah adds another batch of significant advances over the Pentium M, as well as a second core. This warrants another "0.5" in terms of generation.

Considering how much changed going from P6 --> Pentium M, and how much changed again going from Pentium M --> Yonah, it's silly not to give it a generation bump.

Calling it P6.5 would be more accurate than P7.5 (Yonah is nothing like NetBurst), but you'd still be the only one doing it.
The differences between Dothan and Yonah are much smaller than the difference between any combination of P6, P7, and P8.

Tomchu · Jan 12, 2006, 10:12 PM

I think you're the only one claiming that Yonah is of the P6 generation. :-/

mduell · Jan 12, 2006, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by Tomchu

I think you're the only one claiming that Yonah is of the P6 generation. :-/

Yonah is based on the P6 core.

Wikipedia agrees.
X-bit labs agrees.
eWeek agrees.
Anandtech agrees.

Kerrigan · Jan 12, 2006, 11:31 PM

ugh am I at PCWorld forums?

wtmcgee · Jan 13, 2006, 12:29 AM

I personally bought a 15" powerbook a few weeks ago and I think a lot of people who work with pro apps that aren't out would much rather stick with what they know works for now.

I use flash, photoshop and after effects every day and until those apps are native, I'm not switching over to the intel based macs. That's why I think the powerbooks are still up (not to mention the fact there are no 12 or 17" yet), and will continue to be up, much like the g4 towers stuck around after the g5 towers came out.

rhashem · Jan 13, 2006, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by mduell

I didn't mean to imply that Core Duo was just a clocked up Pentium Pro, but it would be disingenuous and confusing if you call Yonah a P8; Merom will be P8.

A pump in the "P" rating is usually reserved for completely different cores. The P6 was completely different from the P5, the P7 was completely different from the P6. Yonah has the same basic architecture as the PPro, except heavily modified (new bus, new branch predictor, new cache architecture, lengthened pipeline, etc, but same excecution units, same dispatch arrangement, etc). It's more like a tricked out P6 than a completely different chip.

iomatic · Jan 13, 2006, 12:40 PM

Agree with you here. Until the pro apps are optimized for Intel, I'll make the jump. But for now, I'll suffer through the slightly slower PowerPC performance

ANY benchmarks, real, or mathematical on Photoshop/Flash performance on Rosetta anywhere, anyone?

...

Originally Posted by wtmcgee

I personally bought a 15" powerbook a few weeks ago and I think a lot of people who work with pro apps that aren't out would much rather stick with what they know works for now.

I use flash, photoshop and after effects every day and until those apps are native, I'm not switching over to the intel based macs. That's why I think the powerbooks are still up (not to mention the fact there are no 12 or 17" yet), and will continue to be up, much like the g4 towers stuck around after the g5 towers came out.

Mallrat · Jan 14, 2006, 07:22 PM

so I guess the pricing does make sense... the new powerbooks are "better" if your only interested in using the software apple provides... or is apple software.

so if you need to run photoshop you'll have to use the latest g4 powerbook for a few more years because those will be faster than the rosetta version on the new powerbooks? Is that the reasoning? If those intel books are 4 times faster shouldn't they be at least the same speed running photoshop? It's very confusing.

These next 2 to 3 years will be exciting, but a bit of a pain.

Tomchu · Jan 14, 2006, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

Yonah is based on the P6 core.

Wikipedia agrees.
X-bit labs agrees.
eWeek agrees.
Anandtech agrees.

Three of those articles mention that it's P6-based chip with heavy modifications. That's what I've been saying all along. When you change major components like what a poster after you mentioned, you essentially have almost a new processor, with only a glint remaining of the old architecture.

Calling it a P6 is stupid. Calling it P6-based is justifiable.

mduell · Jan 14, 2006, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by Tomchu

Three of those articles mention that it's P6-based chip with heavy modifications. That's what I've been saying all along. When you change major components like what a poster after you mentioned, you essentially have almost a new processor, with only a glint remaining of the old architecture.

Calling it a P6 is stupid. Calling it P6-based is justifiable.

Yes, and the latest "G4" (7447 or 7448) is a heavily modified version of the original 7400. Does that mean we should call it G6? No.
At the heart of every Yonah is a (well, two) P6 core; the fabrication process has changed, the cache has changed, and the ancilliary parts have changed, but it's still P6. Not P7.5 (a NetBurst derivative? no way!) or P8 (which is already in common use for INGM) as you wanted to call it earlier in this thread.

wtmcgee · Jan 14, 2006, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Mallrat

so I guess the pricing does make sense... the new powerbooks are "better" if your only interested in using the software apple provides... or is apple software.

so if you need to run photoshop you'll have to use the latest g4 powerbook for a few more years because those will be faster than the rosetta version on the new powerbooks? Is that the reasoning? If those intel books are 4 times faster shouldn't they be at least the same speed running photoshop? It's very confusing.

These next 2 to 3 years will be exciting, but a bit of a pain.

Well, that 3-4x faster figure is, as always, marketing hype. I don't think you're going to see a 4x speed difference on a day to day basis. However, you are right - at least until Adobe, Macromedia, Apple and others release pro versions of their apps, a lot of people are going to hang onto the g4/g5 line. But, I have a feeling that by summertime, most of the big boys will be up to speed with universal binaries. So, 'a few years' is a bit much.

You have to remember that we weren't supposed to be using intel chips yet, so the fact that a lot of vendors don't have universal binaries out yet isn't surprising.

Nebrie · Jan 14, 2006, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by Mallrat

I'm surprised that apple is still selling their "old" powerbooks at the same prices.

I understand still offering them, but how can they keep them at the same price?

What is their reasoning?

My local Frys is clearing out their 15" 1.67ghz Powerbooks for $14xx

wtmcgee · Jan 14, 2006, 11:16 PM

Ouch.

While I don't regret buying the latest gen of g4 powerbooks, knowing I could have saved 500 bucks sure hurts

Tomchu · Jan 15, 2006, 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by mduell

Yes, and the latest "G4" (7447 or 7448) is a heavily modified version of the original 7400. Does that mean we should call it G6? No.
At the heart of every Yonah is a (well, two) P6 core; the fabrication process has changed, the cache has changed, and the ancilliary parts have changed, but it's still P6. Not P7.5 (a NetBurst derivative? no way!) or P8 (which is already in common use for INGM) as you wanted to call it earlier in this thread.

You just ... don't get it, so I'm not going to bother any longer. The Yonah derivative contains as much NetBurst technology as it does P6 technology, with a bunch of improvements all across the board.

Learn your chips.