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Is Your Husband GAY? (Page 3)
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Oisín
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Aug 30, 2010, 03:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Do you get offended when other people put you in a little box?
Throw a tantrum when some calls you a "Scandi" or "linguist"?

No, of course not.
No, because I am both a Scandi and a linguist, or at least, I consider myself so.

But I would get offended if someone said that me considering myself fairly apolitical and middle-of-the-road is just wrong, I’m really a Nazi. By their own personal criteria, I may well (for whatever reason) be a Nazi to them; but I sure as hell don’t consider myself a Nazi, and would get offended if someone told me I was one.

Similarly, I’d get a bit offended if someone told me (as someone has actually done on one occasion) that I was straight because I didn’t take it up the bum. Unlike you, I don’t think he defined people’s sexualities by anything they’ve ever done in their lives, but he did only consider guys who are passive to be gay. Yes, I found it offensive to be told by this dweeb that I was quite mistaken in my knowledge of myself, and I was in fact straight. (He also didn’t believe in bisexuality, incidentally, so everyone was either gay or straight. I absconded from the conversation as quickly and deftly as I could manage)
     
Doofy
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Aug 30, 2010, 03:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Oisín View Post
Similarly, I’d get a bit offended if someone told me (as someone has actually done on one occasion) that I was straight because I didn’t take it up the bum. Unlike you, I don’t think he defined people’s sexualities by anything they’ve ever done in their lives, but he did only consider guys who are passive to be gay. Yes, I found it offensive to be told by this dweeb that I was quite mistaken in my knowledge of myself, and I was in fact straight. (He also didn’t believe in bisexuality, incidentally, so everyone was either gay or straight. I absconded from the conversation as quickly and deftly as I could manage)
Difference here is that the guy you mention is an idiot. I'm not.



Using your argument here, do you not think that's it's offensive to straight guys to be told that they're not straight, but they are in fact "less bisexual than blah blah"?
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Aug 30, 2010, 03:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Are you kidding? A poll *here* will determine the correctness of this issue with finality?
Stop making excuses and do it. Since the poll is *here*, the findings should swing in your favour, no?

Make sure it's public so we can see if people are giving BS answers or not.
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screener
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Aug 30, 2010, 03:52 PM
 
What a dumb argument.
Show me a guy that's totally transparent and tells you every thought that goes through their head.

There's always something they hold back, like thinking about sausage. Jesus.
     
Oisín
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Aug 30, 2010, 03:54 PM
 
Using your argument here, do you not think that's it's offensive to straight guys to be told that they're not straight, but they are in fact "less bisexual than blah blah"?
Yes, I do a bit. And it’s exactly what you’re doing. That’s why I usually consider people to be of the sexuality they tell me they consider themselves to be (or otherwise give the impression of being).
     
Doofy
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Aug 30, 2010, 03:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
What a dumb argument.
Show me a guy that's totally transparent and tells you every thought that goes through their head.
You must be confusing guys with gals. Guys are very transparent.
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Aug 30, 2010, 04:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
You must be confusing guys with gals. Guys are very transparent.
     
Doofy
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Aug 30, 2010, 04:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Oisín View Post
Yes, I do a bit. And it’s exactly what you’re doing. That’s why I usually consider people to be of the sexuality they tell me they consider themselves to be (or otherwise give the impression of being).
I could go around telling people I'm an African-American lesbian. Doesn't mean I am one.
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Laminar
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Aug 30, 2010, 04:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Make sure it's public so we can see if people are giving BS answers or not.
Yes, the best way to ensure a survey's results are accurate is to make sure all participants know that their answers will be scrutinized by their peers.
     
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Aug 30, 2010, 04:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I could go around telling people I'm an African-American lesbian. Doesn't mean I am one.
Doesn't mean you aren't.

But who really gives a f*#k.
     
Doofy
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Aug 30, 2010, 04:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Oisín View Post
Yes, I do a bit. And it’s exactly what you’re doing. That’s why I usually consider people to be of the sexuality they tell me they consider themselves to be (or otherwise give the impression of being).
Let's refer back to the OP here. Which is more offensive?

1) My saying that a bisexual guy is bisexual (even though he's told himself he's straight).

2) A bisexual guy f'ing up a woman's life because he told her he's straight when he's not and thus having her marry him under false pretences.

Choose one.
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Doofy
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Aug 30, 2010, 04:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Yes, the best way to ensure a survey's results are accurate is to make sure all participants know that their answers will be scrutinized by their peers.
We already all know who's gay, bi or straight around here. And we already know that if the poll wasn't public, we'd get ******** answers in there trying to skew it.
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Oisín
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Aug 30, 2010, 04:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I could go around telling people I'm an African-American lesbian. Doesn't mean I am one.
Well, no. ’Cause being an African-American is a physical trait that you obviously don’t have, and being a lesbian kind of requires being female, which you’re not. Similarly, you could go around telling people you’re a bicycle, and you wouldn’t be that either. There’s a difference between something that’s purely physical and easily verifiable, and something that’s purely psychological and therefore ultimately unverifiable.

But you could go around saying you identify yourself more as a gay man than a straight man, and I’d defer to your own knowledge of yourself and call you a gay man, whether or not you’ve ever actually slept with a man. As screener said, I have absolutely no way, other than your own words, of knowing whether you’ve ever fantasized about being with a man/woman.

Let's refer back to the OP here. Which is more offensive?

1) My saying that a bisexual guy is bisexual (even though he's told himself he's straight).

2) A bisexual guy f'ing up a woman's life because he told her he's straight when he's not and thus having her marry him under false pretences.

Choose one.
Obviously the latter. But that wasn’t really part of the argument here on page three. If you’d added a third option of Hitler persecuting Jews, that would obviously have been more offensive, too—it just wasn’t really part of the current thread of conversation.

I’m not saying that a guy who knowingly marries a girl despite knowing that he’s gay or bi is not offensive—it is, unless the girl is aware of it and okay with it. But a guy can be completely straight, having never even considered doing anything with another guy, marry his girl, and then somewhere down the line start to have curious thoughts about other men, too. How was he supposed to know he’d turn out bi or bi-curious later on?
( Last edited by Oisín; Aug 30, 2010 at 04:23 PM. )
     
Doofy
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Aug 30, 2010, 04:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by screener View Post
But who really gives a f*#k.
You do, obviously. Else you wouldn't keep returning to this thread.
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Aug 30, 2010, 04:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Oisín View Post
But you could go around saying you identify yourself more as a gay man than a straight man, and I’d defer to your own knowledge of yourself and call you a gay man, whether or not you’ve ever actually slept with a man. As screener said, I have absolutely no way, other than your own words, of knowing whether you’ve ever fantasized about being with a man/woman.
If that attitude was true there would be no such thing as being "in the closet."

<as to the topic> Like doofy, I (am male and) have never given the slightest consideration to man-sex. But unlike doofy, I don't pretend that everyone else is the same on the inside as I am. To each his own.
     
Doofy
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Aug 30, 2010, 04:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Oisín View Post
Well, no. ’Cause being an African-American is a physical trait that you obviously don’t have, and being a lesbian kind of requires being female, which you’re not. Similarly, you could go around telling people you’re a bicycle, and you wouldn’t be that either. There’s a difference between something that’s purely physical and easily verifiable, and something that’s purely psychological and therefore ultimately unverifiable.
Unverifiable until one plays with another's sausage.

So, am I to understand that the state of gayness is purely psychological and not at all physical? So it is a choice, not an inherent trait, then?
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Aug 30, 2010, 04:20 PM
 
Really really bored.
Besides, laughing is good for the soul.
     
Oisín
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Aug 30, 2010, 04:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Unverifiable until one plays with another's sausage.

So, am I to understand that the state of gayness is purely psychological and not at all physical? So it is a choice, not an inherent trait, then?
What? Psychological traits can’t be inherent? Since when? I don’t think anyone’s ever claimed that sexuality is a physical trait—it’s not like you’ll have an extra gay limb growing out of your body if you’re gay.

All right, let’s say ‘internal’ and ‘external’, then. Or just ‘verifiable’ and ‘non-verifiable’. Or whatever.

If that attitude was true there would be no such thing as being "in the closet."
Why not? If someone tells me he’s straight, I’ll generally think of him and refer to him as a straight guy. If later on it turns out he was in the closet and just hiding his real sexuality, that changes accordingly, of course. But as long as his words and actions (at least those that are available to me) peg him as a straight guy, I’ll consider him straight, even if I might also at the same time have my own suspicions that he might just be in the closet.
     
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Aug 30, 2010, 04:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Oisín View Post
Obviously the latter. But that wasn’t really part of the argument here on page three. If you’d added a third option of Hitler persecuting Jews, that would obviously have been more offensive, too—it just wasn’t really part of the current thread of conversation.
The fact that a bisexual bloke tells everyone (and his female fiance) that he's straight is the root of my argument all along.

You may say he's got a right to call himself whatever he wants to.
I say if he's bisexual and calls himself straight he's a lying f**k.

If you're gay, say you're gay. If you're bi, say you're bi. It's really, really simple.
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Doofy
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Aug 30, 2010, 04:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Oisín View Post
What? Psychological traits can’t be inherent?
Inherent traits, by definition, must be physical.
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Oisín
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Aug 30, 2010, 04:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
The fact that a bisexual bloke tells everyone (and his female fiance) that he's straight is the root of my argument all along.

You may say he's got a right to call himself whatever he wants to.
I say if he's bisexual and calls himself straight he's a lying f**k.

If you're gay, say you're gay. If you're bi, say you're bi. It's really, really simple.
I agree—except that our ideas of where the boundary between ‘gay’, ‘bi’, and ‘straight’ goes differs. So there would be people who call themselves, and consider themselves to be, straight that you would consider liars, but I wouldn’t.

And I haven’t been talking about people knowingly hiding or lying about their sexuality until these past two posts, by the way. Only about how people see themselves. That may be a delusion to themselves, true—but if a man lives his entire life convinced (even if only by force) that he’s only sexually interested in women, and he never has any kind of sexual experience with another man, does it really matter if, on a subconscious level, he was attracted to men? And how would you ever find out, if he doesn’t even (consciously) know it himself? Tree in the forest, etc.

Obviously, people who deliberately and knowingly lie about their sexuality and marry people (and have children, even) under false pretences are liars. That kind of goes without saying. But there is such a thing as one’s personality or sexuality changing over the years, and it might not have been a lie at the time.
     
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Aug 30, 2010, 04:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Oisín View Post
Why not? If someone tells me he’s straight, I’ll generally think of him and refer to him as a straight guy.
Because of this part of what you said: "I’d defer to your own knowledge of yourself"
People who are in the closet aren't showing you "their own knowledge of themselves," they're being intentionally deceptive. While it's very considerate of you to indulge their deception, even while you admit you have suspicions, it's still not accurate. It doesn't tell you much about the truth of things.
     
Oisín
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Aug 30, 2010, 04:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Because of this part of what you said: "I’d defer to your own knowledge of yourself"
People who are in the closet aren't showing you "their own knowledge of themselves," they're being intentionally deceptive. While it's very considerate of you to indulge their deception, even while you admit you have suspicions, it's still not accurate. It doesn't tell you much about the truth of things.
Absolutely.

But as sexuality is something that ultimately goes on inside the brain of each individual person, there’s no absolute way to verify what the truth of things really is. As such, I have no better gauge of someone’s real sexuality than their own words and actions, and that’s what I’ll have to go by.

If they’re in the closet, I have no way of knowing for sure that they’re being deceptive about their sexuality (potentially, every person I meet is doing this), and I prefer not to bother making my own truth about the matter for each person around, but to accept their statements and actions on the matter as representing the truth until otherwise proven.
     
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Aug 30, 2010, 05:01 PM
 
Enough people lie about their sexuality (even to themselves), that it's hard to fault doofy for saying you can just ignore their statements entirely and judge them wholly by their actions.

Of course, nobody says you have to judge them at all. Being ambivalent to others is a perfectly acceptable lifestyle choice
     
Oisín
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Aug 30, 2010, 05:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Enough people lie about their sexuality (even to themselves), that it's hard to fault doofy for saying you can just ignore their statements entirely and judge them wholly by their actions.

Of course, nobody says you have to judge them at all. Being ambivalent to others is a perfectly acceptable lifestyle choice
Judging by their actions is no more reliable. Actions are quite easy to hide and lie about, too. When I was in the closet, judging me by my actions wouldn’t have pegged me as gay, since my sex life was just simply nonexistent, but even if it hadn’t been, I obviously wouldn’t have made my actions to belie my words available to those I was trying to keep things from.

(Actually, my words wouldn’t have pegged me as either gay or straight either. My way of remaining in the closet was to be vague and just avoid the topic altogether, though I’d sworn I wouldn’t tell a downright lie about it—first time someone asked me straight out, I told the truth and, as a side effect, came out.)
     
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Aug 30, 2010, 05:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Being ambivalent to others is a perfectly acceptable lifestyle choice
Exactly.
     
Oisín
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Aug 30, 2010, 05:23 PM
 
Of course, nobody says you have to judge them at all. Being ambivalent to others is a perfectly acceptable lifestyle choice
Why would you have to be ambivalent to them, though?

I don’t consider myself as ‘judging’ someone by their sexuality, but whether implicit or explicit, it’s always a natural part of the overall impression of a person, like gender, hair colour, dress style, voice, temper, and so on. In some people, dress style or hair colour are very prominent features, while temper and voice aren’t; in some people, sexuality might be very prominent while other things aren’t; and in yet others, sexuality doesn’t seem to play much of a part at all. But there shouldn’t have to be any ambivalence involved. Either you know (or think you know) someone’s sexuality, and that’s that; or you don’t, and that’ll usually be because you’ve never really given it any thought.
     
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Aug 30, 2010, 07:27 PM
 
My wives are gay?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
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Aug 30, 2010, 09:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
There is no scale. Some things simply are black and white. Allow me to illustrate:

Do you have a penis?
Are you pregnant?
Do you have a pilot's licence?
Have you ever been to Rome?

See? Black and white.
The fact that you libs think that nothing is black and white is utterly moronic.


Actually.....

I've seen a lot of people on the internet that kind of have a penis and kind of don't.
Lot's of girls get pregnant and never know it and it gets reabsorbed etc... so they kindof were.
I have one, but it's just a forged one from a third world country so kindof.
I've been to Rome but just to the airport for a layover and half of it is just outside the city limits.

I know I'm a moron but the world is not all black and white.

Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Yes, it does work on a scale:

- Asexual.
- Straight.
- Bi.
- Gay.

Split the "bisexual" bit into a zillion little subsections if you like - it won't make any difference to the fact that bisexual is bisexual.
Wait you just said it's black and white. Now it's clear and white and black and a zillion shades of grey. Have you ever admitted that your wrong to yourself or just to the whole world?

I love the U.S., but we need some time apart.
     
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Aug 31, 2010, 12:29 AM
 
You know how I know you guys are gay? For arguing about what makes a person gay.
     
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Aug 31, 2010, 01:55 AM
 
What do you guys think of Ellen Degeneres in those vitamin water commercials? Ellen Degeneres is so affable, I would say that if you don't like her you are probably homophobic.
     
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Aug 31, 2010, 07:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
You know how I know you guys are gay? For arguing about what makes a person gay.
Exactly!!! Thank you!

I love the U.S., but we need some time apart.
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 31, 2010, 09:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
You know how I know you guys are gay? For arguing about what makes a person gay.
You know how I know you're gay? Because you use tongue when we kiss.
     
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Aug 31, 2010, 09:45 AM
 
This thread is useless without pictures.
"Faster, faster! 'Till the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." - HST
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 31, 2010, 09:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
This thread is useless without pictures.
I will make you very very sorry if someone decides to fulfill your request.
     
osiris
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Aug 31, 2010, 10:02 AM
 
You couldn't make Moses sorry if he was in a row boat with Christ during Ramadan.
whatever that means.
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Railroader
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Aug 31, 2010, 01:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
You know how I know you're gay? Because you use tongue when we kiss.
You know how I know you're gay? You like Coldplay.
     
 
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