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budster101 · Jul 21, 2005, 12:55 PM

I didn't even know it was recognized as such until 1973...

Is Homosexuality a Choice?

It has been argued through the ages, long before science was ever involved, that homosexuality is merely a choice. Many people state that gays only have homosexual relations because they choose to do so. Others profess that homosexuality is not a choice and due to the societal stigma which is associated with homosexuality very few would consciously choose a homosexual lifestyle and the discrimination that accompanies it.

Some state that simply due to the genetic makeup of the human race it is very unlikely that homosexuality would be anything other than a choice. In An Analysis of Biological Theories of Causation, by Dr. Tahir I jaz, M.D., he states, "Of all animals, human beings are the most genetically indeterminate. In the words of Dr. Joseph Wortis, Department of Psychiatry, State University of New York: 'no complex high-level behavior of the human species can be reduced to genetic endowment, not language, not house building and not sexual behavior.' Preferential and exclusive homosexuality is not naturally found in any infrahuman mammalian species and it would be odd for such behavior in humans to be genetically determined." It is Dr. Tahir's opinion that homosexuality is completely a choice as it is not possible for it to be genetically determined. He further cites various accounts of leading psychologists and psychiatrists, such as Masters and Johnson, Dieber, Barnhouse, Socarides, Cappon, Hadden, Ribinstein and Leif, who have reported very high rates of success in curing individuals of their homosexual tendencies. Tahir does not believe that individuals could be helped if homosexuality were indeed genetic -- just as you would not be able to cure someone of his or her race or gender.

Socarides, who has been successful in reportedly curing gays of their homosexuality, also agreed with Tahir. In an excerpt taken from his article, Homosexuality: Basic Concepts and Psychodynamics, Socarides states, "Homosexuality, the choice of a partner of the same sex for orgiastic satisfaction, is not innate. There is no connection between sexual instinct and the choice of a sexual object. Such an object is learned, acquired behavior, there is no inevitable genetically inborn propensity toward the choice of a partner of either the same or opposite sex." Socarides is very blunt in his assertion that homosexuality is specifically a choice. He completely disagrees with the genetic arguments for homosexuality.

Tahir also points out in his article that the American Medical Association Council on Scientific Affairs supported the idea of homosexuality as a choice. In a report distributed by them in 1981 they stated, "There are some homosexuals who would like to and probably could change their sexual orientation. Because some homosexual groups maintain contrary to the bulk of scientific evidence that preferential or exclusive homosexuality can never be changed, these people may be discouraged from seeking adequate psychiatric consultation. What is more deplorable is that this myth may also be accepted by some physicians... The physician who is not alert to the orientation of the homosexual patient may not challenge the belief in sexual irreversibility and arrange for appropriate referral." Once again, Tahir supports the decision that homosexuality is a choice and that with proper medical attention there can be a cure.

The American Psychological Association takes the exact opposite view on homosexuality. In an APA statement on homosexuality by Bryant Welch, JD, Ph.D., he states, "The research on homosexuality is very clear. Homosexuality is neither mental illness nor moral depravity... Nor is homosexuality a matter of individual choice." Welch then continues to state that efforts to cure homosexuality are little more than "social prejudice garbed in psychological accouterments". He continues that research now indicates that homosexual orientation begins very early in life, perhaps before birth. He further states that there should be no reason to discriminate against gays in the slightest way as they are every bit as productive and as much of an asset as any other member of society.

The APA has in fact taken the general view that homosexual orientation is an innate quality since 1975. It followed the American Psychiatric Association removing homosexuality from the list of official mental and emotional disorders in 1973. This confirmed their belief in the new scientific research in the area of homosexuality. Both associations now promote an ideology designed to help dispel the idea that homosexuality is a mental illness.

In agreement with the APA, and contrary to both Tahir and Socarides, is the belief that therapy to help change homosexuality does absolutely no good. In, Psychology and You: Answers to Your Questions About Homosexuality, produced by the APA Office of Public Affairs, they discuss how conversion therapy often does more harm than good. In the instances where conversions were reported successful, the APA states, "Close scrutiny of their reports indicates several factors that cast doubt: many of the claims come from organizations with an ideological perspective on sexual orientation, rather than from mental health researchers; the treatments and their outcomes are poorly documented; and the length of time that clients are followed up after the treatment is too short." For these reasons the APA states that claims of curing homosexuals must be treated with great scepticism.

The question of whether homosexuality is an innate quality or a choice is at best still up in the air. It would seem that a greater part of the scientific community is beginning to believe that homosexuality is an innate quality, however, others cite increased pressure on the scientific community from special interest groups as well as pressure from homosexual doctors and researchers within the scientific community. More research will have to be made before many will believe that homosexuality is something that many are simply born with.

Discuss.

My personal oppnion based on non-scientific pondering and anecdotal evidence, I would be contrarian to the idea that it is not a mental disorder.

Source

EdGein · Jul 21, 2005, 12:57 PM

From the guy who helped get homosexuality taken off the mental disorder list.

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/narth/spitzer3.html

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Jul 21, 2005, 12:58 PM

Yes, no wait, no.

Whatever

Shaddim · Jul 21, 2005, 01:00 PM

Git-R-Done!!

Oops, wrong thread.

PS. I gotta say, this is a trolling attempt if I ever saw one.

Damn. They're just people, let them live how they want. Ok?

wallinbl · Jul 21, 2005, 01:02 PM

Of course it's a disorder! Who wants to stick their dick in some dude's ass (or worse, have some dude stick his dick in your ass)?

It's not genetic. It's not a chemical imbalance. It's not a mental disorder. It's a lifestyle choice. Why is everyone hung up on why people are gay? Why do people ride roller coasters? Because they like it. Why do people pierce their ears? Because they like it.

EdGein · Jul 21, 2005, 01:02 PM

wallin now that is uncalled for.

budster101 · Jul 21, 2005, 01:03 PM

ROFLMAO... Glad to see the temperature in here drop a few degrees!

It was an obvious and pathetic attempt, and on purpose as I knew y'all would get it!
I mean really, who would seriously think that?

budster101 · Jul 21, 2005, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by wallinbl

Of course it's a disorder! Who wants to stick their dick in some dude's ass (or worse, have some dude stick his dick in your ass)?

It's not genetic. It's not a chemical imbalance. It's not a mental disorder. It's a lifestyle choice. Why is everyone hung up on why people are gay? Why do people ride roller coasters? Because they like it. Why do people pierce their ears? Because they like it.

Hey, hey... don't take this seriously, and no need to attack rollercoaster riders! WE all know that is something you are born with...

EdGein · Jul 21, 2005, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by budster101

Hey, hey... don't take this seriously, and no need to attack rollercoaster riders!

Hugi · Jul 21, 2005, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by budster101

My personal oppnion based on non-scientific pondering and anecdotal evidence, I would be contrarian to the idea that it is not a mental disorder.

I completely fail to disagree with the contrary of your opinion's flip side's opposite.

budster101 · Jul 21, 2005, 01:17 PM

DOh!

RAILhead · Jul 21, 2005, 01:17 PM

AB^2=BCxAC · Jul 21, 2005, 01:18 PM

I think suburban gun ownership constitutes a mental disorder, but the NRA has never challenged 'paranoia' on the APA list, so I could be right.

Shaddim · Jul 21, 2005, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by AB^2=BCxAC

I think suburban gun ownership constitutes a mental disorder, but the NRA has never challenged 'paranoia' on the APA list, so I could be right.

Whew. I'm glad I don't live in the suburbs.

budster101 · Jul 21, 2005, 01:25 PM

Hey no derailing my thread.. this is a gay thread and I want it to stay that way!!! errrrr....

chris v · Jul 21, 2005, 01:29 PM

Is homophobia a mental disorder?

EdGein · Jul 21, 2005, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by chris v

Is homophobia a mental disorder?

Don't know.. but calling those homophobic that aren't might be under "paranoia"

budster101 · Jul 21, 2005, 01:33 PM

I love gay people, they're so happy all teh time.

Just remember, this thread is gay! Keep it that way.

Oisín · Jul 21, 2005, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by budster101

I love gay people, they're so happy all teh time.

Well, yes, if they're gay, they're obviously happy. If they're homosexual, they might be miserable, but they're still gay. Huh. The mind boggles.

Hugi: I cannot not withstand from not stating what is not the opposite of my opinion, namely not that I am not whole-heartedly in complete negative disagreement with the opposed antithetical contradictory opposite of the notion whose opinion's flip side's opposite you did not just claim not to be failing to disagree completely with.

In other words, I have no idea what either yours or Budster's one-liners mean.

chris v · Jul 21, 2005, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by EdGein

Don't know.. but calling those homophobic that aren't might be under "paranoia"

I just asked a question. did it make you uncomfortable or something?

EdGein · Jul 21, 2005, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by chris v

I just asked a question. did it make you uncomfortable or something?

Your projection is a dishonest one.

Go back, try again.

U R TEH LOSE.

Hugi · Jul 21, 2005, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by Oisín

In other words, I have no idea what either yours or Budster's one-liners mean.

Attempt to reach my state of consciusness and you will understand.

What you'll need:

ort888 · Jul 21, 2005, 03:09 PM

It doesn't even matter if it's a choice or not. It doesn't change anything,

wallinbl · Jul 21, 2005, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by ort888

It doesn't even matter if it's a choice or not. It doesn't change anything,

Sure it does. If it is a choice, then people feel comfortable saying that being gay is wrong. If you were born gay, then they can't say that.

Oisín · Jul 21, 2005, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by Hugi

Attempt to reach my state of consciusness and you will understand.

What you'll need:

*Tuborg snip*

Eurgh, argh, blergh, wardgh, Tuborgh. Gross.

Þar að auki drekk ég ekki vínanda

Wiskedjak · Jul 21, 2005, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by RAILhead

img

You're getting alota use out of that pic lately

deomacius · Jul 21, 2005, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by budster101

Hey no derailing my thread.. this is a gay thread and I want it to stay that way!!! errrrr....

Oh don't worry.... It still is.

Oisín · Jul 21, 2005, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by wallinbl

Sure it does. If it is a choice, then people feel comfortable saying that being gay is wrong. If you were born gay, then they can't say that.

Sure you can. There are people saying it's 'wrong' (ie. lower) to be black as well. Doesn't make it any more right, no, but you can say it nonetheless.

Hugi · Jul 21, 2005, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Oisín

Eurgh, argh, blergh, wardgh, Tuborgh. Gross.

Þar að auki drekk ég ekki vínanda

What the.... Talarðu íslensku?! I mean: You speak Icelandic??

And agreeing on the Tuborg - just appealing to your national pride.

mitchell_pgh · Jul 21, 2005, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by wallinbl

Of course it's a disorder! Who wants to stick their dick in some dude's ass (or worse, have some dude stick his dick in your ass)?

It's not genetic. It's not a chemical imbalance. It's not a mental disorder. It's a lifestyle choice. Why is everyone hung up on why people are gay? Why do people ride roller coasters? Because they like it. Why do people pierce their ears? Because they like it.

Wiskedjak · Jul 21, 2005, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by wallinbl

Sure it does. If it is a choice, then people feel comfortable saying that being gay is wrong. If you were born gay, then they can't say that.

Perhaps, but in a country where personal freedoms are paramount ...?

chris v · Jul 21, 2005, 04:11 PM

You know what? This forum is full of insecure, whiney pathetic little people. I recall a time when not every thread here degenerated into name-calling, and horrid displays of ignorance and prejucdice. I miss those days.

I think I'll check out of the lounge for a while.

budster101 · Jul 21, 2005, 04:12 PM

LOL..dude you got me with that one.

Oisín · Jul 21, 2005, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Hugi

What the.... Talarðu íslensku?!

Já, litið, en ekki svo gott. Flesta orðana er ekki svo erfiðra að giska á, en þau eru ennþá marga orð sem að ég ekki get giskað á íslensku, en sem að eg skilja samt. Það erfiðasta er að geta beygingana rétt. Við höfum ekki alla þessa föll, og ég get þau aldrei giskað rétt!

And agreeing on the Tuborg - just appealing to your national pride.

Nah, my national pride doesn't encompass beer. Doesn't encompass much, actually...

tooki · Jul 21, 2005, 04:22 PM

I don't think that homosexuality itself is a disorder. But as a gay dude, I can say that I'll be damned if 99% of the gays I know don't have some kind of mental problems otherwise!!

tooki

Shaddim · Jul 21, 2005, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by tooki

I don't think that homosexuality itself is a disorder. But as a gay dude, I can say that I'll be damned if 99% of the gays I know don't have some kind of mental problems otherwise!!

tooki

Yeah, I didn't want to say it, but there it is. Spot on.

budster101 · Jul 21, 2005, 04:28 PM

Ahhhhhhh-haaaaa. < The ah-ha you hear after Watson finally gets what Holmes new all along, because he read the script first.

or, when Edie Murphy plays that Barbershop dude telling the Jewish joke about the fly in the soup but no spoon in "Coming Too America"... aaaaaccchhhhhaaaaaaaa......

Too eclectic?

UNTeMac · Jul 21, 2005, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by wallinbl

Of course it's a disorder! Who wants to stick their dick in some dude's ass (or worse, have some dude stick his dick in your ass)?

It's not genetic. It's not a chemical imbalance. It's not a mental disorder. It's a lifestyle choice. Why is everyone hung up on why people are gay? Why do people ride roller coasters? Because they like it. Why do people pierce their ears? Because they like it.

It's always the dick in the ass thing with you guys isn't it. Ban the dudes! Film the women!

Hugi · Jul 21, 2005, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by Oisín

Já, litið, en ekki svo gott. Flesta orðana er ekki svo erfiðra að giska á, en þau eru ennþá marga orð sem að ég ekki get giskað á íslensku, en sem að eg skilja samt. Það erfiðasta er að geta beygingana rétt. Við höfum ekki alla þessa föll, og ég get þau aldrei giskað rétt!

Well... bravo, I say! - That was very well done

. And I don't envy you, Icelandic grammar is a killer! But with a vocabulary like that, you could speak to anyone without problems. It's ironic that despite all our grammar, you can seemingly dismiss most of it and still be understood 100%.

Originally Posted by Oisín

Nah, my national pride doesn't encompass beer. Doesn't encompass much, actually...

Well, it should. Denmark is brilliant. I've traveled all over Europe and the US, and I always feel most at home in Denmark. There isn't a nation in the world with a population that's as nice and "ligeglad" (can't find a good translation - "laid back", perhaps?).

Oisín · Jul 21, 2005, 04:33 PM

Well... bravo, I say! - That was very well done . And I don't envy you, Icelandic grammar is a killer! But with a vocabulary like that, you could speak to anyone without problems. It's ironic that despite all our grammar, you can seemingly dismiss most of it and still be understood 100%.

Yeah, except that I never understand more than like 10% when Icelandic people speak to me... Downside of learning a language through Björk and Sigur Rós lyrics, I guess

Originally Posted by Hugi

Well, it should. Denmark is brilliant. I've traveled all over Europe and the US, and I always feel most at home in Denmark. There isn't a nation in the world with a population that's as nice and "ligeglad" (can't find a good translation - "laid back", perhaps?).

Yeah, laid back is probably the best. And yeah, I guess we are that... Don't get me wrong, I like (most) Danes, and I love this city (Copenhagen), and I think Denmark on average is a very nice place to live. Just not much material for national pride, more like national contentment or summat...

tooki · Jul 21, 2005, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Yeah, I didn't want to say it, but there it is. Spot on.

Narcissism has to be #1. Then bipolar disorder. And then a whole bunch I don't know the names of since I've never taken a single psych class. Is there a clinical name for being a slut?

tooki

EdGein · Jul 21, 2005, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by wallinbl

Sure it does. If it is a choice, then people feel comfortable saying that being gay is wrong. If you were born gay, then they can't say that.

Wow what a bizarre rationalization.

That would like me saying that adultery can't be wrong because I was born heterosexual.

Hugi · Jul 21, 2005, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by EdGein

Wow what a bizarre rationalization.

That would like me saying that adultery can't be wrong because I was born heterosexual.

What are you talking about? Care to elaborate?

budster101 · Jul 21, 2005, 04:41 PM

Slut... slut... slut... (thinking out loud on the internet)

Flamer? Oh, wait, that's not really a clinical name for slut is it..

I would have to say, nymp-homo-maniac, a take off the popular term nymphomaniac.

EdGein · Jul 21, 2005, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Hugi

What are you talking about? Care to elaborate?

Just because someone might be born some certain way, doesn't justify the actions that the person does in his or her life.

Take for example, some people claim that pedophiles are born that way as well.

Does that somehow justify their actions? Or make someone be able to say it's ok because they are born that way?

Of course not.

spatterson · Jul 21, 2005, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by tooki

I don't think that homosexuality itself is a disorder. But as a gay dude, I can say that I'll be damned if 99% of the gays I know don't have some kind of mental problems otherwise!!

tooki

I think all mankind qualify for some kind of menal disorder.

As far as homosexuality being a choice... uh no, if that was the case, I wouldn't have endured years and years of rejecting my own feelings, and feeling awful about myself. And the years of people rejecting me, because of their insecurity. Sorry folks, it just doesn't work that way. Being gay is not a choice...

budster101 · Jul 21, 2005, 04:49 PM

Uhm, neither is depression a choice... but I do follow I think, what you are trying to say.

Hugi · Jul 21, 2005, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Oisín

Yeah, except that I never understand more than like 10% when Icelandic people speak to me... Downside of learning a language through Björk and Sigur Rós lyrics, I guess

Well, since their lyrics are mostly incoherent babbling, I'd recommend against that. I always envy the people who can listen to their music without understanding the lyrics. I have to listen to and understand the nonsense.

Originally Posted by Oisín

Yeah, laid back is probably the best. And yeah, I guess we are that... Don't get me wrong, I like (most) Danes, and I love this city (Copenhagen), and I think Denmark on average is a very nice place to live. Just not much material for national pride, more like national contentment or summat...

Blech. "National pride" is usually based on some bizarre misconceptions like "we have the largest army" or "we have the most land space" or "our empire covered the world when we were raping Africa" or whatever. Anyway, the point is, most national pride seems to be based on small penises.

I like Denmark since it produces happy people. What other purpose could there be?

Mrjinglesusa · Jul 21, 2005, 04:51 PM

One of my best friends is gay. People in college always suspected it but never really knew as he didn't tell us. He got married after college (to a woman). He was always in denial about who he truly is. Went to church, prayed, talked to preachers, all with the hope of to denying his homosexuality or at least coming to "terms" with it. Guess what? It didn't work. He is gay and there is nothing he, his pastor, his wife, or ANYONE can do about it.

The point is that if this were a choice he could make, he did EVERYTHING he could do to "choose" being a heterosexual. In the end, he couldn't deny who he was anymore. What's more, fi this were a choice people could make, why would they choose homosexuality? They would be opening their life up to scorn, ridicule, harassment, etc. Much easier to "choose" to be a heterosexual. Anyone who thinks this a choice people either a) don't know nor have ever met and taked to a homosexual or b) are completely ignorant.

Hugi · Jul 21, 2005, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by EdGein

Just because someone might be born some certain way, doesn't justify the actions that the person does in his or her life.

Take for example, some people claim that pedophiles are born that way as well.

Does that somehow justify their actions? Or make someone be able to say it's ok because they are born that way?

Of course not.

So you think Homosexuality and paedophilia are comparable?