[fishguy]

Right now I have a set of Klipsch promedia 2.1 speakers and until my cats got at them they sounded awesome. Good enough to fill the room with music when not sitting at the computer. The only thing I wish they had is optical audio output.

Questions:

Is there a good 2.1 system of comparable quality with optical digital audio out?

Has anyone used a dedicated receiver, or other means, to hook up a nice set of bookshelf speakers and a subwoofer to your computer? (preferably a compact receiver with optical digital audio). After having Klipsch, this is probably overkill for me, but something to think about anyway. I am intrigued by this option.

Does anyone have a good cat recipe??

thanks
fishguy

[the macimum]

I am into audionics, I may be able to help you out.

I love my receiver, the thing is, mine was made in 1993. All receivers now have like 5 or 7 channels, so that won't work very well for 2.1. Unless you want to go professional, Professional receivers are the same in terms of channels but if your looking for 2.1, amps work surprisingly well, can range from very expensive to cheap, and allow you to customize the sound specifically to what you like. When you hook amps up to a computer, there is no need for a pre amp, same goes for the ipod (or anything else you can plug headphones up to).

My order of amps by sound and power, I have owned or studied these myself:

1. Rotel Hifi, Very expensive, but the most sophisticated and powerful sound I have ever heard from a consumer system. (Optical)
2. Sonance, Very powerful, Great sound, I filled my home theater with these for the better price than Rotel and because they work well for a very long time without burning out. (Very Good reliability).
3. Adcom, Used for many concert halls, they make consumer products, I have 3 of these for explosive sound and base.
4. Yamaha, Very cheap to expensive with prices from $150-to $11,000. They are good for hooking one amp up to many things (including computers), and are legendary for some recording studios. (your best bet for with your computer).(Optical, but in their receivers.)
5. Audioaccess, I have had a few problems with these, they are the best for many rooms, but have good concert sound, the base, however, doesn't seem very professional. (Probably not for you).
6. Sony, not as professional as the rest, good prices, powerful. (optical, mostly)

Here is the basic layout in my favorites order, these are all the brands I've either owned or had friends own.

1.Logitech: Powerful sound, good base. Not too pricey for 2.1 systems. (Optical, not for 2.0)
2. JBL creature 2: Surprisingly powerful sound, good price for 2.1, a very compact system. (Optical,not for 2.0)
3. Bose: very smart and sophisticated sound, bass/ power may not be enough for some. Very Expensive, but most say it's worth it. (I'm not sure if they are optical, you may want to check them out)
4. Altec Lansing: Can lack in the power quality, very good sound. Usually are nicely priced.
I have not tried Klipsch, I have heard great things from people like you, so I would like to.

As for bookshelf speakers, you have 2 options for the best consumer quality:

Consumer: Jbl, Sony.

For Sub woofers, I use sony, but thats just for the boom sound it offers compared to the professional choice, boston acoustics.

As you can see, just about all of the 2.0 systems out there, both pro and consumer, don't have optical. To be honest, it's pretty useless when it comes to 2.1. It does improve the sound quality, yes, but not noticeably when it comes to music and movie watching. Optical is mostly for surround sound in movies and a professional approach when it comes to audio editing.
Good luck and try not to think like me (too seriously).

[brassplayersrock²]

will have to bookmark this page.

thank you macimum

Alex

[fishguy]

I'm going to look into a yamaha amp for kicks. So I just plug the speakers and subwoofer directly to the amp and the amp to the optical out on my new Mac Pro (soon!!)? Do you use software to finetune the sound or is it generally not necessary?

Thanks again - big help!

[the macimum]

Yamaha's Receivers are the ones that offer optical, they have multiple channels and are cheaper. Try to research them more, they are available at Pc Richard's Best Buy etc. But like I said before: "As you can see, just about all of the 2.0 systems out there, both pro and consumer, don't have optical. To be honest, it's pretty useless when it comes to 2.1. It does improve the sound quality, yes, but not noticeably when it comes to music and movie watching. Optical is mostly for surround sound in movies and a professional approach when it comes to audio editing.
Good luck and try not to think like me (too seriously)." So If you really want optical, then go for the yamaha. And as slpdLoad says below me, most receivers can be set to a stereo option.

Good Luck!

[slpdLoad]

Most recievers now (all?) that support 5.1/6.1/7.1 can also easily be set to do 2.1. I have a Philips reciever (part of a mid-range home-theater-in-a-box setup) and I'd never go back to having "computer speakers" after all the flexibility of a reciever.

[the macimum]

Philips, eh? Specs?

Model #?
Sound Quality?
Bass Quality?
Quality with syncing with a computer?

So if you have seven speakers hooked up to a receiver, does the same 2 channels come out of all of them, or is it only 2 channels come out of the 2 speakers and sub-woofer , and the other 5 speakers silent?

[slpdLoad]

I couldn't say if it's made anymore. Something similar likely is though. It's 4 or 5 years old.

Model: Philips FR 968 (there were a couple in this range of model number)
Sound Quality: Very good, in my subjective opinion, with the included speakers. I could buy better speakers if I wanted.
Bass Quality: I have to turn down the powered subwoofer to balance it with the speakers. It has a nice crossover with the main speakers.

Syncing with a computer: There are lots of ways to hook it up. Generally through a 1/8" to stereo RCA cable, or through optical (the optical out of an Airport Express is very nice!)

Okay, I see what you mean. If you have seven speakers, and you feed the reciever a stereo signal, the signal will probably only come out of the front two and the sub, leaving the center and surrounds silent. However, some recievers can spread a stereo sound out a little bit, but I don't think it sounds better than stereo.
My comment was referring to the fact that if you have a surround sound reciever, you do not need to buy more than two speakers. The reciever should downmix/upmix the signal however you want to however many speakers you have.

[TFunkadelic]

Macimum, you are wrong. Not only are 2 channel receivers still made, they're easy to find. Here's a Sony from Best Buy.... http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1076628923551

and an Insignia..
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1099394773324

There are 3 more here... http://www.crutchfield.com/S-mvTZ4Ih...up.asp?g=10420


I'm sure one could find more options with a little research.

Secondly, as slpdLoad points out, a multi-channel receiver can be used to drive just two speakers. The little dolby button on the receiver remote/front panel is what you use to turn surround processing on or off. When it's off, you're hearing the stereo mix the source, with NO signal being sent to any other channels, so you are losing nothing.

Many stereo receivers will, however, lack a subwoofer pre-out, but you can use a speaker level connection to accomplish the same thing in most cases (if your subwoofer has the proper inputs).



Also, "audionics" is not a word. You are in to "audio" or "audio equipment."

One who is enthusiastic about audio equipment is an audiophile.

[jebjeb]

Short answer

Look for a decent brand (NAD, Denon etc) 2 channel stereo amp on eBay for $100-150. Grab some bookshelf speakers from someone like B&W, NHT, Kef for $200-300, some alright cable to hook it up and run it from the 3.5mm miniplug output on the Mac. Not much more cash than a set of limiting Altec Lansing 2.1 speakers.

Long answer

Before one just starts sprouting off brands and generalising, one needs to consider what you require.

You have obviously heard that a digital output (be it optical or co-ax) gives better quality than the 3.5mm mini-plug outputs on a Mac. Now, generally, you would be correct. One needs to look at the reasons though.

All a digital output does is send the digital audio signal out to an off board DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter) rather than using the built in DAC in the "sound card" in the Mac. It all depends on the quality of the DAC being used. The macimum is getting close to being correct in that there are not many 2 channel amps or receivers (BTW - the only difference in definition between and amplifier and a receiver is that a receiver is an amp with a radio tuner built in) with built-in DAC's. It is mostly multi-channel amps/receivers that have the DAC's so as to extract and convert a digital multi channel signal (Dolby Digital/DTS etc) down to the individual analogue channel signals to then be amplified (plus that multi-channel amp may do it's processing in the digital arena).

As you are only after a two channel setup (the .1 is obviously the bass side of thing as you well know), there is no real point getting a multi-channel amp unless you will branch out into that arena in the future.

So, it all depends on how much you want to spend. One persons "expensive" is another persons "inexpensive". I will try to map out a path here that will mean you can buy nice gear and upgrade if the bug bites you.

Firstly, lets make sure we rid ourselves on any misconceptions or myths. You may think you need a sub to get decent base and this is generally the case with "computer" speakers as these have small drivers which can not really go that low so they need to be supplemented with a sub-woofer which are actually normally not really even that "sub" due to their small size and in-ability to actually produce true "sub" frequencies.

We have briefly explored the whole digital/analogue connection issue.

I would start out by getting a nice little 2 channel amp, maybe some thing a bit older off of eBay. It is hard to make recommendations in the lower price side without being too specific but there are some generalisms that one can make. NAD makes some nice solid 2-channel stuff. Also some of the Denon gear is good as well. Rotel is a good low/mid price level brand as well. There are 100's of brands out there. The best thing to do is look at some review sites and then search for the products or go the other way around and find something in your price range that looks good and then search for reviews on it. As a nice little beginner system, you should be able to find something between $100-150 which may be a few years old but is still very good. So many people are upgrading to multichannel that there is heaps of good and very in-expensive 2-channel stuff out there.

Then I would look for some nice bookshelf style speakers. I love the British sound (round warm and punchy) and have quite a few pairs (5 at last count!) of B&W speakers in my house. Kef is also very nice. NHT does some great stuff and you should find more of it in the States (I assume that's where you are from). A budget up to $200 will keep things interesting there.

Really try and put these speakers on some stands as a solid platform does wonder for the sound, particularly in the bass department.

I am not going to open the cables debate here as there will be many people from either side of the fence. I for one am a big believer in how much cables (including interconnects [source signal], speaker and mains power cables) influence the sound produced by a system. I have changed cables in some of my systems and most people can tell a difference. I usually spend about 15-20% of the system price on cables.

For now, as long as you hook it up with come decent, solid speaker cable that fixed in firmly to the amp and the speakers, then you can't go wrong.

As for hooking this up to your Mac, start off with just connecting it up to the 3.5mm mini plug output via a 3.5mm-2x RCA cable (again something solid - find something off a hifi cable site on the web as it seems that most places just try to flog some over priced/under performing "Monster" stuff). Run the Mac volume at 70-100% full and use the volume control on the amp to change things.

So here we are talking about a roughly $300 system that will sound great, will have decent bass and have many upgrade opportunities.

Lets talk about those upgrades.

- Signal output - you could look at an inexpensive off-board sound card like an M-Audio Sonica or you could go to an external proper HiFi DAC which you can find on eBay these days for under $100. You could use the optical output on the Mac to go to the external DAC and then use some decent RCA cable to hook it up to the amp.
- Bass - you could go with any sub which has speaker level inputs. Most of the amps you will be looking at at the lower price range will not have either a dedicated sub-output or variable-volume signal outputs to feed the line-level input on the sub. Most subs these days can take a speaker level signal (straight from the speaker cables) and run the sub off that.
- Speakers/amp- of course you can move up to better speakers and/or a better amp in the future.

This basic little system should sound better than a pair of similar priced dedicated computer speakers plus they will have much more "upgradability" so that you can build on your purchase in the future.

[jebjeb]

Just thought I would add what I am running so you can get an idea.

On my G5 Quad I only really have a little system to keep me company as I am tapping away on it. It is a little Sony stereo amp which my brother used to have (Cost about equivilant $100 new) connected to the normal 3.5mm output on the PowerMac. I have some B&W LM1 (they have built in stands) speakers hooked up to that. Total cost (new) of the system is about �260 or $400. You could put something very similar together from used stuff off eBay or a specialist used hifi site for about $200-300.

Forgetting about sources, my Home Theatre has a Denon 3803 multi-channel receiver with 3x B&W 602 large stand mount speakers accross the font (I like to use the exact same type of speaker for the centre as the mains, a pair of B&W 601 for the rears and a pair of B&W tripole surround speakers.

My new two channel system that I have just got is my MacBook Pro (soon to be a dedicated MacMini playing lossless audio files from my server) with an M-Audio Sonica Theatre outputting via digital co-ax to a pair of active Meridian DSP 5000 speakers. These speakers have built in DAC's and each driver has it's own amp which means there is 6x100w amps in the pair. Expensive (at around $5000 new) but when they include the amps for that price it is quite good in the scheme of things.

Not trying to show off but just trying to show the different options you can go for.

[TFunkadelic]

"Not trying to show off but just trying to show the different options you can go for."

Right.....


The radio tuner in a receiver is not all that differentiates it from an amplfier. An integrated amplifier is an amplifier with volume control, and some level of source selection. A receiver goes one step further by adding a radio tuner. While some amplifiers DO have trim pot's these are not true integrated amplifiers, and often have a different knob for each channel which is not suitable for using as a main volume control.


I can assume you are reccommending an integrated amplifier to him. This coupled with small book shelf speakers will make for an alright living room system, but not a great computer system.

As a similarily priced alternative, I would reccommend a pair of active studio monitors. These are meant to be listened to in the near-field, and come with amplifiers tailored to the drivers built in, which means they are compact, but also sound better than a hodge podge of mediocre components.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...tor?sku=602313

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...ors?sku=603203

There are 2 good options at your price point. They price out at $400 and $350 per pair respectively. You would connect these using a 1/8th inch plug to your computer, with stereo 1/4 inch TRS plugs on the other side. Volume would be adjusted on your computer.

These speakers are louder, more accurate, and more detailed than any computer speakers you'll use and sound better than any consumer bookshelf speakers would on your desk. They don't sound bad at all as regular bookshelves though, either.

[fishguy]

I really don't know anything about monitors. Having built-in amps simplifies life. For "near field", I'm assuming means anywhere within an average sized room - where these will go.

How's the bass? I'm not out for bass that overpowers everything else - I liisten to a variety of music and would rather have accurate sound than punched up bass.

Do you put these monitors on the floor, a stand, or what? Do you space them on either side of the computer desk?

Thanks for another option!

[fishguy]

What about Edirol MA-15D Digital Stereo Micro Monitors. They have 2 input sources so I can run my computer into it and another audio source. The only down side is they are lower in power, but maybe 15w/channel is enough?

Is this a good brand?

Any other options if I want to spend up to $750?

Thanks again.

[jebjeb]

Originally Posted by TFunkadelic

The radio tuner in a receiver is not all that differentiates it from an amplfier. An integrated amplifier is an amplifier with volume control, and some level of source selection. A receiver goes one step further by adding a radio tuner. While some amplifiers DO have trim pot's these are not true integrated amplifiers, and often have a different knob for each channel which is not suitable for using as a main volume control.

I can assume you are reccommending an integrated amplifier to him.

I think that it was pretty obvious that is exactly what I was recommending. Obviously not, so I will amend.

A radio tuner is all that differentiates between a receiver and an integrated amplifier.

Over here it basically implied that when one generalises and says "amplifier" then they are talking about an integrated amp otherwise one would refer to them as a pre-amp or power-amp. I have been caught in the trap that is generalising.

Of course, he may be able to find a used pre and power amp in this price range as well.

Agree mostly on the active monitors side. Again, all depends on price. Does cut down on upgrade options though.

Near field, in my opinion, means a listening position within roughly 1.5-2 metres of the speaker. Basically if the speakers were above a mixing desk with the listener sitting at the desk.

Edit - budget question already answered

[jebjeb]

Try looking for some used Meridian M3's or M30's. Should be able to find them for between $450 and $800 on eBay.

As you are spending a decent amount of money, it would certainly be worth going to a few of your local hifi stores, not Best Buy or similar but a place with demo rooms and the like. Let the salesperson know what your criteria is and your budget and they should be able to show you some great stuff. Plus, many shops will have used stuff which has been traded in or ex-demo gear. There will be big savings there.

It is very difficult to recommend gear without the person who is buying it listening to it or to something similar. I know this is basically what I have been trying to do but now knowing your budget, you are certainly in the realm of getting some nice new, or near new, gear.

[the macimum]

Originally Posted by TFunkadelic

Macimum, you are wrong. Not only are 2 channel receivers still made, they're easy to find. Here's a Sony from Best Buy.... http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1076628923551

and an Insignia..
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1099394773324

There are 3 more here... http://www.crutchfield.com/S-mvTZ4Ih...up.asp?g=10420


I'm sure one could find more options with a little research.

Secondly, as slpdLoad points out, a multi-channel receiver can be used to drive just two speakers. The little dolby button on the receiver remote/front panel is what you use to turn surround processing on or off. When it's off, you're hearing the stereo mix the source, with NO signal being sent to any other channels, so you are losing nothing.

Many stereo receivers will, however, lack a subwoofer pre-out, but you can use a speaker level connection to accomplish the same thing in most cases (if your subwoofer has the proper inputs).



Also, "audionics" is not a word. You are in to "audio" or "audio equipment."

One who is enthusiastic about audio equipment is an audiophile.

I was talking about good ones, yamaha, rotel etc. Sony isn't known very well for quality sound or reliability.

[the macimum]

Originally Posted by jebjeb

Try looking for some used Meridian M3's or M30's. Should be able to find them for between $450 and $800 on eBay.

As you are spending a decent amount of money, it would certainly be worth going to a few of your local hifi stores, not Best Buy or similar but a place with demo rooms and the like. Let the salesperson know what your criteria is and your budget and they should be able to show you some great stuff. Plus, many shops will have used stuff which has been traded in or ex-demo gear. There will be big savings there.

It is very difficult to recommend gear without the person who is buying it listening to it or to something similar. I know this is basically what I have been trying to do but now knowing your budget, you are certainly in the realm of getting some nice new, or near new, gear.

Like I said, all the things I have recommended in my first reply I have owned.

[the macimum]

Originally Posted by TFunkadelic

Also, "audionics" is not a word. You are in to "audio" or "audio equipment."

One who is enthusiastic about audio equipment is an audiophile.

I don't need your grammatical assistance, I know I made it up, anyone that is smart enough to enable spell check is smart enough to know that when red lines appear under the word it's either spelled wrong or not real.

And for anyone else that feels like being a hero, the stuff I talked about is the stuff I have owned, just because I'm not talking about it doesn't mean it's bad quality or old, it means I have not owned it.

[TFunkadelic]

Originally Posted by the macimum

I don't need your grammatical assistance.

Maybe so, but you obviously need my help reading. There is a Yamaha stereo receiver on the Crutchfield link that I provided.


...Also, it wasn't a matter of grammar. Semantics studies word meanings and logic, not grammar.

[TFunkadelic]

The 15D-A's would lack bass, as any small speaker like that would. I do, however, think you'd be surprised at how loud they can play at 15 watts a piece. As mentioned above by jebjeb, nearfield monitors are designed to be used close to the listner, for instance, on a desk.

Studio monitors in general are designed with accuracy in mind. Many home speakers accentuate the bass and treble ranges because it is initially more pleasing to the human ear (when you become used to a more neutral frequency response, it becomes preferable). Your concerns about excessive bass are unwarranted, and if anything, you will probably experience the opposite.

There are a number of placement options. They could go on speaker stands like these...

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...air?sku=459520

or you could place them on your desk. They could also be thrown on a bookshelf. Floor placement isn't a good idea because they are small and they would be very far out of the ideal height range.

[jebjeb]

Originally Posted by the macimum

As for bookshelf speakers, you have 2 options for the best consumer quality:

Consumer: Jbl, Sony.

Originally Posted by the macimum

I was talking about good ones, yamaha, rotel etc. Sony isn't known very well for quality sound or reliability.

Sorry mate, not trying to be an ass but you need to be careful with your contradictions. Even if you think that there is a difference between Sony's electronics and their speakers, you would need to make this clear.

Also, I would tend to think it is the other way around in the sense that Sony's consumer audio electronics are alright but their speakers are, generally, not good.

This is the problem with making a all-encompassing statement about a brand. Nearly all brands have example of poor products as well as example of great products. It is just the ratio of these that changes. I would agree that Sony does/has made some poor electronics in the past but if that made one stay away from Sony altogether than they could be missing out on some of the best mid level CD/SACD players ever.

Best for fishguy to go and have a listen to some gear in his budget.

[the macimum]

5 star rant!

+1 point!

[drewcifer]

bose companion 3 - expensive but well worth it.

best sounding in the mac store by far.
best sounding 2.1 computer speakers ive ever heard or owned.

if youre going the hifi route, mcintosh is definitely one of the top in the market (better than rotel IMO)

[fishguy]

I think that I'm going to try the Edirol MA-15Ds first. On paper they seem to be what I want to get started with. After that I'll explore other options when I get a chance to get to some real audio stores.

Question about the Edirols: They have a subwoofer out port. If I want to add a subwoofer in the future, doI need a powered subwoofer, or a passive one? It seems to me that the 15W/ch wouldn't be able to drive one by itself? Any particular recommendations?

Thanks for all your help!

[TFunkadelic]

Whatever you do do not listen to drewcifer. Bose are a waste of your money.

If you were to use a subwoofer with the Edirol's it would have to be powered. I feel it should be stated again that they will be lacking in bass. That is not, however, to say they won't sound good.