[Zoom]

I've got a SCSI 8x Yamaha CDR now, which is fine, but I have lot of trouble with SCSI stuff. I had to buy an adapter card for my G4 so I could use it (along with my SCSI Umax scanner), and I think it's causing lock-ups.

So, I'm looking to go Firewire. This would be my first FW device ever, so I'm a newbie here.

Basically, I'm looking for general buying advice on a new FW CDR drive. Some specific questions follow.

First, what is "burnproof" technology?? How can it possibly work? It's dependent on the data feed from the computer, right, so how can it handle a lack of data? Does it actually stop burning to wait for more data? Does this cause any glitches in the CD?

Second, I'm looking hard at the Formac 24x drive on sale for $250 (see this [URL=http://www.formac.com/html/shopformac.html?cid=shop_rebate_cdrw24]link/URL] - ends Thursday). I called and found out that it has only a 2MB buffer and the mechanism is made by Sanyo. Doesn't sound too good. Anyone have input on that?

But now, in general, what (if anything) do I need to know about a FW CDR drive? I'm used to SCSI. Can I turn the thing on and off at will? I assume I can (unlike SCSI). Will most media handle 24x speed?

In general, where are the best deals on decent FW CDR drives? I'd like 16x for sure, and any more would be a bonus. I don't need it to be portable. I need it to be fast and dependable. Besides this "burnproof" stuff, what other newer features should I be looking for?

Any and all advice will be appreciated.

[Cipher13]

Forget burnproof... its more of a flash word than anything. Its not necessary.

I'd go for the Yamaha CRW2100 - 16*10*40.

Most media will NOT like 24X...

FireWire... well, its nice... turn it on and off and plug/unplug at will.

I have a Yamaha 8424SX-VK (SCSI external), and I'd never go with anything other than Yamaha - but as it is, I hot plug this and turn it on and off... no worries at all...

[Zim]

Yes but what will the future of SCSI be with 10.x?? So far its
lookin kinda lousy, no?

(I'm in the same boat, tryin to figure out if I just need to
sell the SCSI and go Firewire/USB).

Mike

[Zoom]

Cipher13, talk to me about burnproof. What is it and why is it meaningless? Sounds great. Sounds indespensible. Doesn't it allow for background burning in OS 9.x? That alone would be great (for those of us still stuck in (pre-X land).

I would love for someone to explain to be what it really is. I'm a EE who writes realtime software, so lay it on me. Maybe I should post a new topic on this, but let's see what I can get here.

I would love to put my drive in my tower, but Apple screwed me on the second drive bay in my G4/400. That REALLY sucked. Furthermore, the tower didn't come with any sort of SCSI, so I had to buy the card. I have a scanner and a CDR, and I had all sorts of trouble getting good cables that were long enough, and if I turn my CDR on and then off, my system will eventually lock up hard. I hate SCSI. Give me hot swap ports, man!

Anyway, FW drives seem to be coming down in price compared to SCSI, and I think I'll bite.

As for 24 support, I'm assuming that all this means is that 24x is bleeding edge and the Mac driver/SW support just isn't there yet - but it will be in the next few months. Until then, I just burn at 20x or 16x, depending on what my media/drivers/SW supports - right? I'm not dead in the water, I just can't max out. Please confirm.

Anyone have feedback on the Formac drives? I, too, love Yahama. I've had two Yamaha CDRs and loved them both. What are other good Mac-compatible CDR makers? Is Que! good? How about the Sony Spressa drives? There are lots of others, but most seem to be re-brands (OEMs) and it's hard to tell who really makes them.

[AJM]

Hi,
dont know much technicalities, but here is what I read.
Burnproof technology (or equivalent) basically stops the writing head
when there is no more data coming so that it can restart writing from
the exact spot when data is available again. CDR without it made a
coaster if the data stream was interrupted. Buffer underrun error
should not happen with burnproof, hence the smaller size of the buffer
in the newer drives (typically 2MB instead of 4 or 8).
I think it is necessary for burning at high speed, especially if you
plan to have your computer do other things while you are burning.

I have a QPS drive, I think the mechanism inside is a Plextor. Been
happy with it so far.

AJM

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Zoom:
<STRONG>Cipher13, talk to me about burnproof. What is it and why is it meaningless? Sounds great. Sounds indespensible. Doesn't it allow for background burning in OS 9.x? That alone would be great (for those of us still stuck in (pre-X land).

I would love for someone to explain to be what it really is. I'm a EE who writes realtime software, so lay it on me. Maybe I should post a new topic on this, but let's see what I can get here.

I would love to put my drive in my tower, but Apple screwed me on the second drive bay in my G4/400. That REALLY sucked. Furthermore, the tower didn't come with any sort of SCSI, so I had to buy the card. I have a scanner and a CDR, and I had all sorts of trouble getting good cables that were long enough, and if I turn my CDR on and then off, my system will eventually lock up hard. I hate SCSI. Give me hot swap ports, man!

Anyway, FW drives seem to be coming down in price compared to SCSI, and I think I'll bite.

As for 24 support, I'm assuming that all this means is that 24x is bleeding edge and the Mac driver/SW support just isn't there yet - but it will be in the next few months. Until then, I just burn at 20x or 16x, depending on what my media/drivers/SW supports - right? I'm not dead in the water, I just can't max out. Please confirm.

Anyone have feedback on the Formac drives? I, too, love Yahama. I've had two Yamaha CDRs and loved them both. What are other good Mac-compatible CDR makers? Is Que! good? How about the Sony Spressa drives? There are lots of others, but most seem to be re-brands (OEMs) and it's hard to tell who really makes them.</STRONG>

Just make sure you check not only the brand that makes the drive, but the brand that makes the mechanism - thats what counts.

Go FireWire. The only reason you coudln't do 24X is if the media didn't support it - no driver/software issues there.

As for burnproof... well... with large buffers and FireWire, its really not "necessary" - it is indeed nice but I wouldn't base a decision on it.

I still use my system while burning at 8X via SCSI and have no probs unless I do something to stall the computer for a fair few seconds (like 10).

So... yeah, its good to have. But, a lot of drives without "BurnProof�" will have something equivalent anyway...

[Immortal K-Mart Employee]

"Forget burnproof... its more of a flash word than anything. Its not necessary."

"As for burnproof... well... with large buffers and FireWire, its really not "necessary" - it is indeed nice but I wouldn't base a decision on it."

"So... yeah, its good to have. But, a lot of drives without "BurnProof�" will have something equivalent anyway... "

So Cipher13, which one is it. You hate it or love it?

As for me, Burnproof has saved about 10 out of my 100 disks. When I burn from CD to CD at 12x the internal CD cannot keep up, if it wasn't for burnproof they would be toast.

Not to mention when OS9 hangs for seconds at a time for no reason burnproof saves the day again.

I highly recommend burnproof.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Immortal K-Mart Employee:
<STRONG>"Forget burnproof... its more of a flash word than anything. Its not necessary."

"As for burnproof... well... with large buffers and FireWire, its really not "necessary" - it is indeed nice but I wouldn't base a decision on it."

"So... yeah, its good to have. But, a lot of drives without "BurnProof�" will have something equivalent anyway... "

So Cipher13, which one is it. You hate it or love it?

As for me, Burnproof has saved about 10 out of my 100 disks. When I burn from CD to CD at 12x the internal CD cannot keep up, if it wasn't for burnproof they would be toast.

Not to mention when OS9 hangs for seconds at a time for no reason burnproof saves the day again.

I highly recommend burnproof.</STRONG>

Nice but unnecessary.

And as said; most drives without burn proof have a no name, unflaunted equivalent anyway.

I've never really had problems as such - I'll admit I'm more careful with the system when burning, but when it only takes 5 minutes to burn a CD anyway... is it so hard to have a break from the system regardless? I know one shouldn't have to but still.

Burn proof would be more a bonus than anything for me.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Forget thinking in terms of a 'Firewire' CD burner.

All any of them is, is a case, with an IDE CD-RW drive in it.

Get the best IDE CD-RW by itself. Prices for a decent 24x drive are down to $99 these days. 20x-$89. 16x-as low as $65.

Get a Firewire case. (Pyro makes a good one, around $100 or so is standard)

Put the IDE CD-RW in the case, attach cables, power up and you're done.

The best thing about this approach, is you get the CD-RW mechanism of your choice, the features/speed you want, the Firewire chipset and features you want in the case (IE: 911 chipset, USB option etc) and you should also save money if know how to shop components.

That Formac drive honestly is overpriced. That unit should cost around $189. The 'normal' price for it, is outrageous. You're paying for its looks. If that's an important thing, go for it. If you don't care so much about the looks, and want quality hardware (which a Sanyo mechanism most definitely ISN'T) then go the self-assemble route, or buy from a company that does it for you.

By the way, Buffer Underun protection IS a cool thing to have. No matter what they call it (IE: Burn Proof) when you use an app like Toast, under 'Special Features' you'll be able to check Buffer Underun Protection, and be almost guaranteed to never see the likes of a coaster again. Although I never really had too many coaster problems before I got drives with Burn Proof, now I NEVER get coasters. So I can't complain about having the feature! Most new drives have it in some form or another anyway.

Yeah, why would you want something that allows you flexibility in your work?

Me, I'd rather have old technology. Stuff with a big buffer, but not the brains to use it. Something that can't stop doing what it's doing.

Buy something with burnproof, and save yourself some hassle. Owning a Mac isn't about conforming to the machine; it's about the machine conforming to you. Burnproof contributes to that.

Yamaha has stood on their laurels too long, and have fallen behind. There are plenty of good names out there that have licensed Burnproof, and are making great drives.

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by &lt;burnproof&gt;:
<STRONG>Yeah, why would you want something that allows you flexibility in your work?

Me, I'd rather have old technology. Stuff with a big buffer, but not the brains to use it. Something that can't stop doing what it's doing.

Buy something with burnproof, and save yourself some hassle. Owning a Mac isn't about conforming to the machine; it's about the machine conforming to you. Burnproof contributes to that.

Yamaha has stood on their laurels too long, and have fallen behind. There are plenty of good names out there that have licensed Burnproof, and are making great drives.</STRONG>

Yeah, they only make the best burners out there...

As I said, don't let the "Burn Proof" label get you. Most drives that don't have Burn Proof have the EXACT same thing in another form. The feature is nice, but the name... pfft.

When I say "Burn Proof" is nice, its only because you KNOW the burner has that protection. A few seconds effort can tell you whether any other you're looking at has an equivalent.

So stop telling me others have the technology, and tell me who they are and what they have.

To my knowledge there's nothing on the market like it right now. Certainly nothing with support in Toast. That's a requirement for it to matter, you know.

If you're willing to shell out the cash for a premium name, you should be willing to shell out the cash for premium technology instead. The name was built through the technology, not the other way around.

Yamaha's current line is no better than average, and certainly lacks compared to its competitors in terms of useful technology.

Cipher,
Burning at 8x without burnproof with an 8mb buffer might be fine, but double your speed to 16x and see how many coasters you get. My own experience is that at 10x, my burner is fine with a 4 mb buffer, but at 12 - 16, it's pretty iffy without burnproof. It's saved me numerous coasters.

[pobodysnerfect]

well zoom, to answer part of your original question, I own a Formac 16x firewire burner. I love it, have had no problems with it, just plug it in and iTunes and Toast both recognize it right away. I even use it on my win2k box with no problems using nero. I am not going to get into the burnproof debate, but if it comes with it then great, huh? nice to have if it's there...

oh also if your G4 tower is a newer model the Formac will run bus powered...

[Zoom]

I've got a G4/400 AGP - is that new enough for bus-powered FW CDR?

The sale is over now, apparently, so the Formac drive is out.

I know nothing about 911 bridges and chipsets and so on. I mean, I'm a EE by degree, but I just am not up on the lingo and standards. Someone please tell me more about this.

I'm intrigued by crash harddrive's suggestion - it sounds great. Can anyone back this up? Are FW drives nothing more than an EIDE drive with a FW converter chipset and a case? Can you really come out cheaper buying an internal EIDE drive and marrying it to a FW case? If so, tell me how to find good cases/chipsets. I'd be willing to do that to get the mechanism I want., especially if it's cheaper overall. If I go this route, how can I tell if I can form a bus-powered setup? Does it depend on both the FW case and the EIDE drive?

I'm thinking Burnproof sound like A Good Thing (tm). Are the other technologies really the same? What's this about Toast only supporting "Burnproof" but not the other, similar technologies?

And finally, with Burnproof or similar, so you need the larger buffer sizes? The Formac sales rep tried to tell me that you don't need a large buffer when you have Burnproof. True?

Great responses so far, BTW - thanks!!! Keep em coming!

[ColonelSawtooth]

I'm with Cypher on this one. . . Yamaha drives are far superior to any other on the market.

I've had a 6x4x2x, a 24x8x4, and I just ordered a Firewire 40x20x10 (crw2200fez) this morning from Outpost - 314.99 w/ a 30.00 rebate from Yamaha and a free spindle (50) of 24x CD-R's.

As far as the BurnProof technology goes, Yamaha uses the same technology, but calls it SafeBurn. Basically, it allows the CD recorder mechanism to start and stop the laser during the recording process, without causing an underrun error and ruining a disc if the data stream is interrupted. Besides having SafeBurn, it also has a 8MB buffer, and something called CAV (constant angular velocity). The Yamaha site has a better technical definition of CAV than I can muster, so if you interested, take a look.
http://www.yamaha.com/cgi-win/webcgi...0007CRW2200FXZ

I don't have a lot of experience with some of the other brands, but Yamaha is the only one I'd choose.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by Zoom:
[QB]I've got a G4/400 AGP - is that new enough for bus-powered FW CDR?

The sale is over now, apparently, so the Formac drive is out.

I know nothing about 911 bridges and chipsets and so on. I mean, I'm a EE by degree, but I just am not up on the lingo and standards. Someone please tell me more about this.

Basically, if you go with an Oxford 900 or 911 chipset, you're fine. Most of the current Firewire case kits use the Oxford 900 controller, unless otherwise noted. For a CD-RW drive, this chipset is more than fine. You'll get no added benefit from a CD-RW drive using a 911 chipset, although it won't hurt to have it either. The 911 chipset is great for harddrives with ATA66 and 100 interfaces, but not needed for optical drives which still operate at ATA 33 speeds, even with 24x burns.

Are FW drives nothing more than an EIDE drive with a FW converter chipset and a case?

Yup. There aren't really 'Firewire' components like harddives or CD-RWs, just converted IDE devices.

Can you really come out cheaper buying an internal EIDE drive and marrying it to a FW case? If so, tell me how to find good cases/chipsets. I'd be willing to do that to get the mechanism I want., especially if it's cheaper overall. If I go this route, how can I tell if I can form a bus-powered setup? Does it depend on both the FW case and the EIDE drive?

Most certainly you can get a great deal, and have a fantastic external burner for less than buying one 'pre-made'. If you don't care so much about the looks of somthing like the Formac drive, and just want a good, low cost, high quality burner, I'd defintly recommend this option as the way to go.


First thing I'd do, is check Apple's published lists of device mechanisms they recommend for various apps that you know you'll be using. For instance, iTunes compatibility: http://www.apple.com/itunes/compatibility/

Do some research on the drives you like, and find the best price on one. For instance, a Yamaha CDRW2100E 16x10x40 drive. I did just a rudimentary search and found one for $107 here. http://www.computer123.com/specx.asp...040E&compact=1

Add that to a firewire case such as this one for $99: http://www.caloptic.com/cable.html

And you have yourself a very capable Firewire 16x CD-RW for around $207 plus shipping.

You can go much cheaper than that, if you're willing to lessen the brand-name factor of the CD-RW a bit. (Basically $99 is about average for the firewire case though, going up for add-ons like USB and the much coveted 911 chip, which as I said will do virtually nothing for your CD-RW drive.)

Personally, one brand I like, that doesn't get much notice is LiteOn. I've had a LiteOn 12x burner that I've been using practicaly non-stop for several months now, without a single coaster. (I burn about 20 CDs a week or so on average). They are cheap drives (the 12x I have now going for around $50 and the 16x for $65) yet they're good quality, have Burn Proof, are fully Mac compatible (models 12101b and 16101b) and are all around good deals.

But do shop around for the brand you like. Also one thing to watch for: does the drive you want, from the source you get it from, include Mac compatible burn software- such as Toast- when you buy it? I make a point of specifically asking for the Mac software when I buy from non-Mac places. (I often buy drives and other equipment for other people, clients I do work for, friends, family, etc. so I've had a good oportunity to sample a wide range of equipment. I just bought a 20x AOpen brand CD-RW for a friend's system. For a PC of my own I built just this past weekend, I put in a 16x CyberDrive. A litte while ago I bought several Sony 16x CD-RWs for a client. I've really come to see they are all mostly the same, if the brand is even half-way decent, the drive shouldn't produce coasters or have problems.)

And finally, with Burnproof or similar, so you need the larger buffer sizes? The Formac sales rep tried to tell me that you don't need a large buffer when you have Burnproof. True?

I'd say that's an accurate statement. The drives I have with Burn Proof only have 2MB buffers, as opposed to 8MB buffers on drives without. I won't get into the whole Burn Proof vs. large buffer debate, but sufice it to say, I have no complaints using Burn Proof thus far.

Anyway, good luck!

[Zoom]

Excellent responses, crash!! Thanks!

I may just give this a try. It would be very interesting to price out a system both ways and see the difference. For instance, take an internal Yahama CDR + FW case and the equivalent external CDR and see the price savings.

Here's another question, though. I presently have a Yahama 8x CDR in a SCSI case (it came as a single unit). Could I just remove the drive itself and put it in a FW case? That would save me some money right now and I could get a better internal drive later.

Put another way, is this SCSI burner really an EIDE burner in a SCSI case?

Man, if that's true, I can't imagine why this is not how these things are bought and sold.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by Zoom:
Excellent responses, crash!! Thanks!

I may just give this a try. It would be very interesting to price out a system both ways and see the difference. For instance, take an internal Yahama CDR + FW case and the equivalent external CDR and see the price savings.

Here's another question, though. I presently have a Yahama 8x CDR in a SCSI case (it came as a single unit). Could I just remove the drive itself and put it in a FW case? That would save me some money right now and I could get a better internal drive later.

In my own hardware searches, I found this one place that does indeed seem to have a Firewire to SCSI external box, and it's Oxford 911 and only $89.
http://www.zeehoo.com/miva/merchant....ory_Code=cases

I'd call them and make sure though... that's what the specs say! Personally, I've never before heard of Firewire to SCSI external devices, but hey, live and learn!

As I understand it, the real differences between SCSI and IDE at the hardware level are minimal, just a difference in the interface and the controlling chipset.