[pete]

Just received the latest issue of The Economist which had statistics on broadband subscribers in OECD countries. Only 17% of Americans have broadband, compared to 25% in Korea and 27% in Iceland. The first thing I thought of when I saw that was the Macbook pro and Apple's INSANELY STUPID AND PREMATURE decision to remove the modem from their new portables. Whatever people may say, the vast majority of people throughout the world do not have broadband and Apple should have kept the modem for a few more years.

What were they thinking? Or, rather, why weren't they thinking?

Just a rant.

[Kadman]

I think a more relevant statistic would be what percentage of people buying new Apple laptops have broadband. That, added with the percentage that are on a business network could turn out to be a significantly higher number than the 17% you have cited.

[aehaas]

I was looking at that exactly. A 17" could have been the next purchase but it's a no with no modem.

aehaas

[EFFENDI]

The one thing you fail to grasp here is that the majority of notebook users are just that - notebook users. Needing portability and wireless access. The majority of Apple notebook users do not want to be tied down by a wired connection. I'd think it's safe to way at least 17% of the United States has wireless access. Apple has indeed catered to the majority here, not the minority as you are implying. Apple at least - still - offers the USB external for the broadband-deprived. If you are letting something so inconsequential affect your purchase decision, then maybe you need to reconsider the actual options. An external $50.00 USB modem is really nothing when you are purchasing a $3K notebook.

[Dr Reducto]

What percentage of people can afford to spend $2000 on a laptop?

And what percentage of those will buy a modem for $50 if they really need it?

[x user]

Apple sells a cheap tiny USB dongle modem for users that are so inclined. No big deal, it's smaller than their video dongles, it's like $50 or something...

[pete]

We don't need the modem for our own home access. We need it when travelling around domestically and abroad. Of course many of the people who can afford the $2000 of an apple laptop in the US will probably have broadband access, but these people are not isolated from the rest of the world, who, if we are to believe the 17% figure, are in the majority.There are many many situations where a modem would come in handy. Not to mention that Apple is an international company with customers in other parts of the world.

I still think Apple's move was premature.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by pete

We don't need the modem for our own home access. We need it when travelling around domestically and abroad. Of course many of the people who can afford the $2000 of an apple laptop in the US will probably have broadband access, but these people are not isolated from the rest of the world, who, if we are to believe the 17% figure, are in the majority.There are many many situations where a modem would come in handy. Not to mention that Apple is an international company with customers in other parts of the world.

I still think Apple's move was premature.

I agree. I'm hopeful though-- several posters believed that the firewire 800 was gone for good and now its back, at least for now on this 17 incher. Maybe Apple will reverse its decision and put it back on the Macbook Pro line. The biggest joke would be if they included it on the upcoming Macbooks and left it out of the professional line.

[MovieCutter]

You're buying cutting edge tech, get with the times...sorry dude. If you can afford a $3000 notebook, you can afford $15/mo for broadband. And if you live in an area with no broadband...sucks to be you. I think the real rant should be why doesn't MORE of the U.S. have broadband. And WHERE'S MY 3G CELL PHONE SERVICE!!!!

[ibook_steve]

Let me help you understand this from a design perspective. To implement a modem in a laptop what do you need?

RJ-11 port
modem itself (must be a plug-in card because it can't be integrated in main logic board electronics because of regulations and the different regulations and ptotocols in different countries require different modems; smallest microdash modems are still about 2 inches by 1 inch)
connector on main logic board
two wire pigtail cable from modem to RJ-11

Now you tell me if it sounds easy to fit all this into a laptop. Trust me. It's not. Besides the space issues, the regulation issues are a major pain in the a**. We wanted to get to an external USB modem for a long time so we could use the space for more features. A dual, RJ-45/RJ-11 was used a long time ago, but that didn't work very well.

I think sacrificing the modem for an extra USB port and FW800 more than makes up for the loss of it. As already stated, if you really need a modem, $50 for the USB modem is peanuts compared to the price of the laptop.

Steve

[uicandrew]

Originally Posted by Zeeb

The biggest joke would be if they included it on the upcoming Macbooks and left it out of the professional line.

you know what? i can imagine apple putting the modem on the macbook. I know every user is different. (i remember the rants on the massive macbook pro arguing that they were a "professional" and how "their" needs weren't being met) but if you say that there is a division of the product lines, as steve initially pointed out when he came back, there is a consumer and the professional line.

The professional would be more likely to invest in high speed internet access; more so than a consumer. It would be odd for apple to give a feature to the consumer line and withhold it from the professional line, but what about "durability." The ibooks are arguably much more durable than the powerbooks, due to their polycarbonate material.

so yeah, i think it could happen, and it could be justifiable, but only time will tell

[mduell]

Of the 83% remaining, how many have internet service at all?

Now, of the people who have internet service and don't have broadband, how many are likely to buy a $2000-3000 laptop?

[pete]

Originally Posted by ibook_steve

Let me help you understand this from a design perspective. To implement a modem in a laptop what do you need?

RJ-11 port
modem itself (must be a plug-in card because it can't be integrated in main logic board electronics because of regulations and the different regulations and ptotocols in different countries require different modems; smallest microdash modems are still about 2 inches by 1 inch)
connector on main logic board
two wire pigtail cable from modem to RJ-11

Now you tell me if it sounds easy to fit all this into a laptop. Trust me. It's not. Besides the space issues, the regulation issues are a major pain in the a**. We wanted to get to an external USB modem for a long time so we could use the space for more features. A dual, RJ-45/RJ-11 was used a long time ago, but that didn't work very well.

I think sacrificing the modem for an extra USB port and FW800 more than makes up for the loss of it. As already stated, if you really need a modem, $50 for the USB modem is peanuts compared to the price of the laptop.

Steve

I didn't realize the macbooks has an extra USB port beyond what the old powerbooks had? I don't think they do actually. Everybody keeps talking about how people who can afford these laptops can also afford broadband, but if you just need a computer for home (where your expensive broadband connection is, would you really buy a laptop? The whole point of an expensive laptop is completely mobility and flexibility when moving around, be it from your office to home, on domestic and international travel, in remote areas, cheap and expensive hotels and WHEREVER you are, without needing other external equipment. Sure you can buy the USB modem, but if the old powerbooks could fit a modem so can these. Apple made a decisio to cut the thickness of the macbooks by a fraction of an inch, but they also widened it - they should have the space to have a modem. their decision to make it just a little thinner seems to have cost a lot in terms of removed ports and increased heat. I just don't think it was worth it.

[n8236]

If they can't afford broadband, they shouldn't be living in the 21st century If can't afford broadband, how to afford a Mac hehe

[sledsbehave]

the fact that you and one other person are the only ones complaining about the "missing modem" should give you a real life statistic on how many people buying $2700 laptops need a modem.

there are so many things to take into consideration for this "poll" that i don't buy the 17% deal to be an accurate one. such as, what percentage buy are laptop owners? what percentage need a modem for travel only?

maybe we should take a poll for this site, how many people miss the modem from the new macbook pro's

[dndog]

Originally Posted by sledsbehave

maybe we should take a poll for this site, how many people miss the modem from the new macbook pro's

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=293576

Vote away!

[pete]

Originally Posted by sledsbehave

the fact that you and one other person are the only ones complaining about the "missing modem" should give you a real life statistic on how many people buying $2700 laptops need a modem.

there are so many things to take into consideration for this "poll" that i don't buy the 17% deal to be an accurate one. such as, what percentage buy are laptop owners? what percentage need a modem for travel only?

maybe we should take a poll for this site, how many people miss the modem from the new macbook pro's

Whatever. It's not like most mac users in the world visit this forum so a poll here would be pretty meaningless. As always, mac people get so defensive about everything - it's a waste of time to have any discussion that criticises an Apple decision.

[Dr Reducto]

Originally Posted by pete

Whatever. It's not like most mac users in the world visit this forum so a poll here would be pretty meaningless. As always, mac people get so defensive about everything - it's a waste of time to have any discussion that criticises an Apple decision.

Ive heard that before, when Apple dropped all the legacy ports on the iMac for USB.

[tooki]

The thing is, when I travel, I don't use dialup. Everyone I visit already has broadband, and if not, I just go to Panera bread or whatever and use it there. I just don't think it's that big a deal any more. I haven't used dialup in years. My hunch is that Apple did market research on existing PowerBook owners and figured out that few of them use dialup.

tooki

[pete]

Originally Posted by Dr Reducto

Ive heard that before, when Apple dropped all the legacy ports on the iMac for USB.

That's not the same thing and that was the point of my post - that modems are still very useful when travelling, both in the US and elsewhere. The United States is only a very very very tiny part of the world. As I said: whatever.

[tooki]

Right: and the US is lagging behind the rest of the world in broadband. The leaders are, for example, Japan, Korea, and Scandinavia.

And consider that in developing nations, they aren't putting in land lines at all -- they are skipping wireline and just installing cellular towers.

If anything, that just proves the point that dialup is dying. You're either gonna use broadband (via Wi-Fi or ethernet) or cellular data (via USB, Bluetooth, PC Card/ExpressCard, or using a mobile router that converts it to Wi-Fi).

tooki

[pete]

Of course dial up is dying. I am not saying it isn't. I'm just saying it is NOT dead yet and will continue to be a useful way to connect when travelling for a long time still. I just think it's too early to remove it from a laptop. I'll be honest, I seldom use a modem myself, but there have been occasions when I have really been happy that I had one.

[tooki]

I don't know anyone that uses a laptop with dialup. Moving it into an inexpensive and tiny dongle is a great compromise for the few stragglers who do need it.

tooki

[mduell]

I wonder if Apple will follow in the footsteps of Dell/HP/NEC/Fujitsu and add a 3G cellular modem. It woud make a decent forward-looking replacement for the wired modem.

[jasonsRX7]

Business users need it. Try thinking from the perspective of someone who's deploying 1500 laptops all over the country. Do you want to purchase and keep track of 1500 USB modems? If you support traveling users, you never know where they're going to connect from. In fact, you might prefer users dial into a bank of modems in your HQ rather than use public WiFi to VPN.

Last company I worked for had 250 nurses with laptops that were required by the software they used to dial in (no VPN, no wireless) to upload their daily data. It's four years later and they still use that software.

But what makes it not such a big deal in this case is that it's mostly business that have these kind of large scale modem needs, and most businesses don't buy Macs anyway.

[pete]

With all due respect, you don't know most people who use laptops. There are a lot of people all over the world who use modems daily and many who use them when travelling. Not just a 'a few stragglers'. I've needed modems when travelling throughout Asia (China, Taiwan, Malaysia, Thailand) and even in Europe (Sweden, France, Spain) and I've needed them not just for dial-up but for faxing too. It's a convenience I think laptops should have. I'll work around it and that will be fine too, but I'd prefer not to.

I'm stopping here since this is not going anywhere.

[kcmac]

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

Business users need it.

Business is why Vista can't get out of the box and MS having to placate them. Laggards that think what they have now is good enough.

I travel half of the week. I don't see anyone with phone lines anymore. Apple can more easily make decisions like this and it will end up being the timely choice as most think it already is.This thread is just so lame.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by kcmac

I don't see anyone with phone lines anymore

Check it out, I wrote more than one sentence up there.

Originally Posted by kcmac

Laggards that think what they have now is good enough.

And the obtuse can't see beyond what they know. But I don't blame Apple for dropping it really. They don't target the majority of buyers who need modems, they'll make more money, and it's not like their customers would ever question Apple's judgement anyway.

[production_coordinator]

Good lord... you would think Apple just released a version of OS X on this laptop that wouldn't permit you to use dial up!

If you need dial up, go buy the modem dongle... JUST like the people complaining that the iMac didn't have a floppy disk.

IF YOU NEED IT, BUY IT!

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by pete

With all due respect, you don't know most people who use laptops. There are a lot of people all over the world who use modems daily and many who use them when travelling. Not just a 'a few stragglers'. I've needed modems when travelling throughout Asia (China, Taiwan, Malaysia, Thailand) and even in Europe (Sweden, France, Spain) and I've needed them not just for dial-up but for faxing too. It's a convenience I think laptops should have. I'll work around it and that will be fine too, but I'd prefer not to.

I'm stopping here since this is not going anywhere.

Just like those people that said Apple was foolish for dropping the floppy disk... I think history will look back at this move and say "ugh, why didn't they drop dial up long before 2006"

Sure... some need it... but it's not like there aren't options.

[volcano]

Originally Posted by pete

I didn't realize the macbooks has an extra USB port beyond what the old powerbooks had? I don't think they do actually.

Yes they do.

Powerbook G4 specifications page

&

MacBook Pro specifications page

Specifically under "Expansion."
The old 17" Powerbook only had two, whereas the new 17" MacBook Pro has three.
The number of USB ports on the 15" model, however, remained the same.

I'm not surprised that you're fussing about this... I'm sure just as many people complained when the original iMac didn't have a floppy disk drive - and that was back in 1998. Everytime a long-lived technology is dropped, someone complains. Always.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by pete

With all due respect, you don't know most people who use laptops. There are a lot of people all over the world who use modems daily and many who use them when travelling. Not just a 'a few stragglers'. I've needed modems when travelling throughout Asia (China, Taiwan, Malaysia, Thailand) and even in Europe (Sweden, France, Spain) and I've needed them not just for dial-up but for faxing too. It's a convenience I think laptops should have. I'll work around it and that will be fine too, but I'd prefer not to.

I'm stopping here since this is not going anywhere.

MOST Mac users are in the US, Europe, and Japan. That's a fact. And in those three places, laptops are seldom much used with dialup thanks to the omnipresence of Wi-Fi connections to broadband. The numbers of Mac users in the Asian countries you mentioned are, frankly, miniscule in comparison. I am not saying that they're completely unimportant -- I am just saying that in this case, I can understand Apple's decision not to make everyone buy a modem whether they need it or not, especially since one is available for those who need it. It seems like a very democratic solution to me.

And I do believe that the number of laptop users in Apple's biggest markets who rely on dialup is small enough to be called "a few stragglers". (From my experience as a Mac tech, people who use dialup tend to be using desktop machines.)

tooki

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by volcano

Everytime a long-lived technology is dropped, someone complains. Always.

Like the way they replaced pcmcia with pci expresscard? Now there's a solution in search of a problem.

Maybe if we're lucky they'll drop ethernet once 802.11n comes standard. I mean really, that wired stuff is so 1990's. And hey, one less port to blemish our aluminum ornaments.

I bet then they could shave it down to 0.9" thick with a 27" display in a case that's only two feet wide.

I kid, I kid...

[ddma]

I think in Hong Kong we have over 99% home/business users with broadband in any form (at least to connect with Ethernet port). I rarely use Modem only when I have to fax some documents.

[vinster]

I'm taking Pete's side and say Apple should have kept the internal modem in its laptops.

Some reasons: There are plenty of rural computer users here in the US alone that only have the option of dial up or perhaps a latent so-called broadband-via-satellite connection, and many users are happier with dial up in this case. And although wireless is becoming more ubiquitous, there are still many places where the only option for Internet access is via an analog phone line. I still use a static IP dial-up account to access our company's intranet from home occasionally. I have broadband, but it's dynamic IP for the time being.

As mentioned in this thread, the fact that broadband's becoming more commonplace is only part of the reason Apple chose to drop the internal modem. I'd say as big of a factor is engineering a modem into a portable computer takes valuable space and adds a component cost that's unused by many (although those who might unexpectedly need it someday would surely appreciate it's inclusion). I also don't buy the argument that a modem has to be specially manufactured to work worldwide as region commands have been part of the AT command set for many years. You'd still need a country to RJ-11 adapter for foreign use.

The USB modem is an acceptable alternative, and lack of a built-in unit certainly won't stop me from buying a Macbook in the future (although I'll miss the comfort of having it available as an integral part of the machine).

[aristotles]

I don't know of anyone personally that is still on dialup here in Canada.

@vinster: The rural computer user in the backwaters of the US is not the demographic that would buy macs anyway.

Don't whine to us about your country lagging behind everyone else. Blame your damn senators and congressmen for allowing the telco monopolies to drag their feet and blocking access to cable internet in markets they have no presence in.

[vinster]

Originally Posted by aristotles

@vinster: The rural computer user in the backwaters of the US is not the demographic that would buy macs anyway.

Don't whine to us about your country lagging behind everyone else. Blame your damn senators and congressmen for allowing the telco monopolies to drag their feet and blocking access to cable internet in markets they have no presence in.

I didn't know you worked for Apple's market-research division?

Also, It's not just a lack of investment by phone companies or cable operators that prevents people from getting broadband. DSL is a distance-limited technology so those further than a few miles from their central office/phone exchange cannot get it. Coax also doesn't do well over long distances.

And I'm not whining, I'm just stating my position regarding internal modems in laptops.

[aristotles]

Originally Posted by vinster

I didn't know you worked for Apple's market-research division?

Also, It's not just a lack of investment by phone companies or cable operators that prevents people from getting broadband. DSL is a distance-limited technology so those further than a few miles from their central office/phone exchange cannot get it. Coax also doesn't do well over long distances.

And I'm not whining, I'm just stating my position regarding internal modems in laptops.

I don't have anything to do with Apple. I don't want or need a modem in my MBP.

Perhaps you should take a look at a map of Canada. It is larger geographically than the US with most of it's population concentrated within a couple hundred miles of the Canada US boarder and yet we have board band cable as far north as the North West territories. Why? Coax? LOL. We use fiber optics up to the neighbourhood nodes with cable internet and phone exchange locations spread throughout cities. Granted, DSL is not available outside of larger cities but cable has been available for years in places like Fort St. John,BC, Canada.

http://www.internetworldstats.com/am/ca.htm
Cable internet in Yellowknife,NWT in 2000
http://www.nwtel.ca/about/corpProfile/history.jsp
http://www.bbwexchange.com/publicati...e1405-5398.asp

Fort Nelson, BC
http://www.tvnwt.com/internet/rates-fn.htm
http://www.jnweb.com/british-columbia/map-bc.html

[Trygve]

Dialup is still a reality in much of the world. I have used a TiBook or ALBook with dialup in Georgia (the country, not the state), Uganda, Sri Lanka, Turkey, Laos, Poland, Lebanon, New Zealand, Australia and others... *most* of the world does not have broadband everywhere and the US is behind much of Europe (I get better broadband here in Prague than I get in Nevada).

A modem is still needed and of course I would prefer it to be internal.

[dn15]

Another comment from the peanut gallery:
I am a Mac tech who does onsite service and troubleshooting. I have never, ever, ever used the modem in either my work PowerBook or my personal PowerBook. There are very few places I would take my computer that don't have WiFi or Ethernet drops -- clients, friends' houses, coffee shops, bars, etc.* It's time for modems to go the way of the dodo and the floppy disk, and I have no problem with Apple's decision turn them into an optional dongle.

* This is mostly in a city of 140,000. It's not rural, but by no means large either. I've had absolutely no problem finding free wireless in my foreign travels, though that was mostly in larger cities like Paris and Prague.

[Trygve]

I suppose if one stays in their own area and the "West" then finding free wireless is not so difficult. Once you leave that space and go to the other 75% of the world, wifi and broadband become sparse. Even in many places in Scotland outside the major cities, dialup is the norm unless you live there.

[WOPR]

Originally Posted by tooki

I don't know anyone that uses a laptop with dialup. Moving it into an inexpensive and tiny dongle is a great compromise for the few stragglers who do need it.

tooki

Thread should have ended with that sensible comment.

[krillbee]

You people are forgetting something.

All along, apple has been trying to represent 'class'. They want their machines to look like the Lexus' in the computer world. Apple wants consumers to associate "macintosh" with "wealth" and "premium quality"

56k represents the exact opposite of that. 56k represents the internet solution for those families that cannot afford a faster connection, 56k seems very slow to many, 56k is what many people use in poorer countries and places that are less technologically developed.

Granted 56k is still useful, but at first glance it seems 'old and outdated' and something that is used only when a better alternative isnt available.

Apple wants to move away from that image and towards one that is more 'new and fresh'.
Apple is trying to shoot for an image, and thats why they were first to ditch the floppy drive, and now to ditch the 56k modem.

[nJm]

In 3 years I've only used the modem in my iBook once, and that was while staying with a relative who has no internet access themselves. I've taken my iBook around Europe and a few parts of China and I've never had problems using wifi in airports and cafes etc.

[pete]

Originally Posted by ddma

I think in Hong Kong we have over 99% home/business users with broadband in any form (at least to connect with Ethernet port). I rarely use Modem only when I have to fax some documents.

I'm sorry, but that it simply not true. People who use broadband think that everybody uses it when in fact only a smaller portion of the population uses it. There is a Chinese expression that perfectly describes this thread's perspective: a frog in a well (jing di zhi wa).

[threestain]

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7

Last company I worked for had 250 nurses with laptops that were required by the software they used to dial in (no VPN, no wireless) to upload their daily data. It's four years later and they still use that software.

And is that a good solution? No. Is it a solution they use that is outdated, but works and they don't want to change it? Yes. My housemate used to do the IT for one of the biggest hospital trusts in London, and he had to use dial-up with a token. For millions of records. That really worked well, and didn't send him crazy everytime.

[pete]

Originally Posted by nJm

In 3 years I've only used the modem in my iBook once, and that was while staying with a relative who has no internet access themselves. I've taken my iBook around Europe and a few parts of China and I've never had problems using wifi in airports and cafes etc.

As always it's a matter of perspective. Of course if you're only in airports and urban areas in China you'll be able to have access. Try going to smaller towns and rural areas and see if you can find a broadband outlet! There were around 30 million broadband subscribers in China in 2005 out of a population of 1.3 billion.

The reason people on this forum are so stubbornly sticking to the fantasy that most people in the world have broadband or wireless access is that they are basing their opinion on their experience: young, mainly urban and affluent. Sadly, that's not the world.

[Enigmaaron]

It's just the internet people. It is possible to survive without it for a couple days...

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by pete

As always it's a matter of perspective. Of course if you're only in airports and urban areas in China you'll be able to have access. Try going to smaller towns and rural areas and see if you can find a broadband outlet! There were around 30 million broadband subscribers in China in 2005 out of a population of 1.3 billion.

The reason people on this forum are so stubbornly sticking to the fantasy that most people in the world have broadband or wireless access is that they are basing their opinion on their experience: young, mainly urban and affluent. Sadly, that's not the world.

And listening to you you seem to be stubbornly sticking to the fantasy that it is impossible to use dial up with a MBP. Like a lot of sensible said above, just buy the USB external modem and be done with it. I think this thread should be closed. The OP sounds like a troll now.

[pete]

Originally Posted by villalobos

And listening to you you seem to be stubbornly sticking to the fantasy that it is impossible to use dial up with a MBP. Like a lot of sensible said above, just buy the USB external modem and be done with it. I think this thread should be closed. The OP sounds like a troll now.

Yes, close it down because I am expressing an informed opinion that differs from yours. That's very mature, even democratic in the Bush sense of the word.