[Frans]

There have been rather constant rumours of a lightweight, thin Mac laptop. Today finally a new rumour that seems to confirm what I've been lusting for since the moment I ditched my 1,4 kg Vaio for a Powerbook.

Sources confirm plans for a smaller, ultra-thin form factored MacBook Pro | MacosXrumors

So, what kind of specs do we want??? I'll settle for:
- less than 1,5 kilo (3,3 pounds)
- 12 or 13" widescreen 1200 x 800 glossy screen (or at least the option for glossy)
- portable DVD-player (hardly use it, only for installations and on travels to watch DVD)
- 7 hours worktime
- very small and light power adaptor, or even better: an integrated adapter
- possibility of using a bigger battery pack
- a docking station


older rumours & threads:

http://forums.macnn.com/66/ibook-and...ht-on-the-way/

AppleInsider | Analyst updates Intel Mac predictions

"Ultra-thin 12 inch Mac Book Pro" on the way | MacScoop

It would be REALLY great to have it in the ultra cool Pro-design

[slugslugslug]

After seeing MacRumors' link to that story, I was expecting you to revive your previous thread on this. But you done started a new one, so I'll chime in with the same opinion. Seems unlikely, not impossible, but if it happens, I'll probably buy one.

I should note that this guy was told by an Apple employee that the BlackBook was intended as a replacement for the 12" PowerBook. Now Apple's been known to change its mind about things (e.g. Jobs' "iPods don't need video" remark), and an Apple Australia exec is no Jobs or Schiller. But I bet Apple thinks they can do fine without the ultralight market... I'd like to be proven wrong soon, though.

[Frans]

[QUOTE=slugslugslug;3228871]After seeing MacRumors' link to that story, I was expecting you to revive your previous thread on this. But you done started a new one, so I'll chime in with the same opinion. Seems unlikely, not impossible, but if it happens, I'll probably buy one.

:-), it's probably going to be a Pro

[slugslugslug]

Originally Posted by Frans 

:-), it's probably going to be a Pro

I can live with that, if it's light enough. I still think the most likely name would be MacBook mini if they came out with a smaller notebook than the 13-inchers. But they might throw the aluminum case on there to tie it in with the Pro lineup. I'd certainly expect it to be pricey, as the industry trend seems to involve charging a premium for ultra-lightness. FWIW, I like the MB's look way better than the MBP's.

[Simon]

I would like to see a powerful sub-notebook from Apple, but I'm not at all convinced Apple sees large profits in that market. If they actually put out such a product I'd expect a lot of people that now say they would buy a sub-MBP to be disappointed (as always, some here might say).

I for one would love a sub-MBP with the same CPU, clock, GPU and VRAM the MBPs have but without the internal optical drive and the Express Card slot. OTOH I'd like to see a built-in docking station port.

Knowing Apple however, I'd be surprised to see them do away with the internal optical drive or add a docking station port. I'd expect something more along the line of a MB with a lower clocked CPU, smaller screen, lighter/thinner enclosure. And that is something I would certainly have no interest in.

[Podolsky]

It is a logical extension of a very (the best ever?) successful line of portable computers. The current line does not exploit all the advances that have occurred in the last 2 years in flat screens, battery and flash memory modules. In fact, if the price point could be met it would be great if it didn't have a mechanical hard drive and went all flash. I have not read the rumours though.

[solofx7]

I am a big mac fan now, and I am not sure if I see a market for this type of Laptop.
Don't get me wrong, I will love anything that they put out, but i have a macbook pro 17' and am not put off by the weight at all. it is a powerful monster and the weight is fine with me. i think it is alot thinner and lighter than anything on the windows side.
that being said it would be interesting to see what they come up with.
the macbooks are pretty light and powerful, or so i think. they do have the core 2 duo...

[Frans]

Originally Posted by solofx7 

Don't get me wrong, I will love anything that they put out, but i have a macbook pro 17' and am not put off by the weight at all. it is a powerful monster and the weight is fine with me.

You probably don't travel 3 months a year from hotel to business meeting to airport etc. For me, every kilo counts, not to mention the size. But the formfactor of the Macbook is fine, just a little thinner would be great, a kilo off would be wonderful and a keyboard light the finishing touch.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Frans 

For me, every kilo counts, not to mention the size.

I think this is where the trouble starts. I agree there are many people (myself included) that would want a lighter and/or smaller portable Mac. But, the needs are entirely different and hence people are ready to make very different trade-offs.

You want it to be somewhat smaller and ~1kg lighter. That can probably be done by going to 12" and reducing the battery capacity. But then it's either a less powerful CPU or less battery life. Take your pic. Some will be able to live with a GMA950, others will want a more powerful GPU with dedicated VRAM. Some will want it to be even smaller/lighter and will ask for 10". Some will ask for removal of the Express Card, but others will also want to see the internal optical gone. And finally, some will be ready to pay a whole lot of money for a miniature design while others will not be ready to pay more for this than for a full blown 15" MBP.

As you see this is no simple market or product. It is very diverse and requires a lot of trade-offs and optimization. I could well imagine that Apple is somewhat reluctant to take the risk. It's hard to imagine that they find a compromise which will suit everybody and will still be affordable.

[brockley]

I agree with Simon. There is no way you will see a laptop at less than 3.5 lbs with a 7 hour battery life. The battery itself would probably weight at least a lb so you'd be looking at a 12" widescreen laptop weighing 2 lbs including an optical drive? Unless apple can come up with some anti-gravity material to include inside the case then best wishes for that.
If you look at the past, the 12" Powerbook G4 was thicker than the 15" G4 and just a little lighter as well. If I had to guess, I would think it would be a 12" widescreen, 4-4.5 lbs,1.2" thick, 3-4 hours of battery life, integrated video. If they wanted more battery life then theyd add the ULV Core solo 1.2 ghz chip as an option but I don't see Jobs releasing something so underpowered. Maybe in a 12" macbook but definitely not in a Macbook Pro.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by brockley 

I agree with Simon. There is no way you will see a laptop at less than 3.5 lbs with a 7 hour battery life. The battery itself would probably weight at least a lb so you'd be looking at a 12" widescreen laptop weighing 2 lbs including an optical drive? Unless apple can come up with some anti-gravity material to include inside the case then best wishes for that.

Panasonic W5: 3.1lb, 8+ hours, 12" screen, combo drive.
Sony TX: 2.8 lb, 7.5 hours, 11" screen, super drive.
NEC VersaPro VC: 2.1 lb, 7 hours (14.5 with optional additional battery, still under 3.5lb), 12" screen, unclear on optical.

[Simon]

These are good examples for the PC market, but how many Mac buyers would one of these?

Panasonic W5: 3.1lb, 8+ hours, 12" screen, combo drive

Core Solo 1.2 GHz. And oh, it costs north of $2k.

Sony TX: 2.8 lb, 7.5 hours, 11" screen, super drive.

1.2GHz Core Solo. Starts at $2300.

NEC VersaPro VC: 2.1 lb, 7 hours, 12" screen, unclear on optical.

1GHz Core Solo or a Celeron M. Oh, and it's not available in America either. If it were, it would come in starting at about $2k.

So, who here would want a delicate notebook with worse performance than any other Mac around and a tiny screen, but with the price tag of the 15" MBP?

Obviously only those who need to shave off every single inch and ounce. Is it nice to have many options to chose from so even this niche gets covered? Well yes, of course. But does Apple want to take the risk of catering to this comparably small and very diverse market? Probably not. I'm not at all surprised there hasn't been such a system from Apple.

[Frans]

Mmm, I wouldn't mind a severe performance-hit while I'm on battery. So could they come up with a core duo that is running on one core when on battery?

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Simon 

These are good examples for the PC market, but how many Mac buyers would one of these?

Core Solo 1.2 GHz. And oh, it costs north of $2k.

1.2GHz Core Solo. Starts at $2300.

1GHz Core Solo or a Celeron M. Oh, and it's not available in America either. If it were, it would come in starting at about $2k.

Please read the post I was replying to before running your mouth.

[Brien]

Originally Posted by Frans 

Mmm, I wouldn't mind a severe performance-hit while I'm on battery. So could they come up with a core duo that is running on one core when on battery?

That may actually *reduce* battery life, I'm afraid.

[brokenjago]

How So?

[Simon]

It has been reported that a Core Duo with one core shut off uses more power than when it can handle the same tasks with both cores running. Obviously its load management is fairly sophisticated and seems to favor running two cores at moderate load over one core running at high load.

[solofx7]

what happened to battery life?
i thought we were supposed to be seing 5 - 7 hour batteries by now...

[NateEssex]

Originally Posted by Frans 

You probably don't travel 3 months a year from hotel to business meeting to airport etc. For me, every kilo counts, not to mention the size. But the formfactor of the Macbook is fine, just a little thinner would be great, a kilo off would be wonderful and a keyboard light the finishing touch.

I started with a Powerbook G3 and then the 15" PB G4. Now I have a newer 12" PB and I do like traveling light. My big problem is that I would get a Blacbook, but I want a real video card & the illuminated keyboard is a nice plus. Whatever comes out, I, too, hope the keyboard has the illuminated keys.

[Frans]

Originally Posted by Simon 

It has been reported that a Core Duo with one core shut off uses more power than when it can handle the same tasks with both cores running. Obviously its load management is fairly sophisticated and seems to favor running two cores at moderate load over one core running at high load.

so could they tweak the system in any other way so that battery life is much longer in exchange for a performance hit, for instance by bringing down the clock speed? any trick with the screen?

[Goldfinger]

Meh, Apple just look at the ThinkPad X series, design a good case around it, slap an Apple logo on it and there you have your thin subnotebook.

ThinkPad X-series > All subnotebooks.

[Simon]

I'm not so sure how happy most Mac users would be with an X-series with an Apple on its lid.
• 12" screen with 1024x768 - that was the 12" PB, nowadays most would want wide aspect screens and/or higher resolutions
• ≤1.83 GHz C2D or LV CD - that might help keep heat and power down, but compared to Apple's other portables it's going to be a weak performer
• no internal optical - personally I love that, but many Mac users will scream when they hear this thing has a PCMCIA slot rather than an optical drive

OTOH I suppose Apple could iron out little nuisances like VGA rather than DVI, no Trackpad, etc.

Although I like the size/weight of the X series and I'm sure it's a very decent notebook (did I mention I *love* the X series dock?), I doubt many Mac buyers would be interested. Even more so when you consider that these things cost north of $1300 (including holiday rebates) and their performance will at best be on par with the $1099 MB.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Simon 

• 12" screen with 1024x768 - that was the 12" PB, nowadays most would want wide aspect screens and/or higher resolutions
• ≤1.83 GHz C2D or LV CD - that might help keep heat and power down, but compared to Apple's other portables it's going to be a weak performer

1280x800 and 1400x1050 12" displays have been available for years. I don't think the OP was that literal when he said slap an Apple logo on the lid.

1.66-1.83Ghz is only 20-25% slower than 2.16-2.33Ghz. Since performance usually doesn't quite scale with clockrate, the actual impact will be lest. 10-20% less performance for 50% less weight? A lot of people will be very happy with that trade.

[Simon]

You're missing the point.

Of course there are better specs available, but what would Apple charge for those? Lenovo is charging north of $1300 for something with a 12" PB screen and resolution which performs worse than any other portable Mac around. Since the ThinkPad is a quality notebook, you can assume that Apple's pricing wouldn't be that much different. So here's Apple's dilemma:
• either do a similar design at a similar price point and you'll have a bunch of people here asking why pay so much for 'so little' (have you heard of the PM G4 Cube before?) or
• beef up the design (12"/1280x720, dedicated GPU with VRAM, DVI, ExpressCard, etc.) which will likely raise the price tag (close) to the 15" MBP level.

Personally I'd love the latter option and I'd have no problems paying significantly more for a lighter and smaller enclosure. But that's not the way the majority of the market seems to think. This is a niche market and it's no surprise Apple is reluctant to do such a Mac.

[Kamikaze]

My 2 cents. I have a MB, I Iove it for the size power and battery life, I don't like the small screen to work on. My MBP I love the glossy screen and it's size, love the keyboard backlight, hate the battery life. In short a replacement for the old 12" PB and the MBP would be the better deal for my travels and work. The MB is sweet, but having a slightly smaller unit would rock.

[Frans]

So, what about this leak at MacOS rumours...?

Specs of the ultra-thin MacBook are supposed to be:

2.16 or 2.33GHz Core 2 Duo
-1GB RAM (3GB max)
-ATI Radeon Mobility X1600 or Nvidia Go 7600
-8-hour battery life

MacOSrumors: Mac OS Rumors :: The Original Mac Rumor Site, Celebrating 12 Years of Dishing the Latest Dirt!

Gizmodo did a size comparison:
Sizemodo: The Mythical Ultraportable MacBook Pro - Gizmodo

...and doesn't believe it:
Ultraportable MacBook Specs Leaked? - Gizmodo

But well, I would love it if it turns out this way, it's exactly what I've been hoping for....

[slugslugslug]

Mac OS Rumors has been pure fabrication for at least the last 3 years. They're not even good for a laugh anymore. Don't know why Gizmodo mentioned them the other day, but you'd be well-advised to ignore them..

[Frans]

Hi slugslugslug,

I guess you were 100% right there.

By the way, this report in Macnn caught my eye today:

"Intel rolls out new LV Core 2 Duo chips
Intel last week quietly introduced its low voltage (LV) Core 2 Duo, the first designed for ultraportables and other systems that need lower power and heat at desktop level performance: at peak power the new LV chip consumes only 17 watts, about half of that consumed by its desktop counterpart. The new chips, avaialble in 1.33GHz and 1.5GHz speeds, offer similar specs, including 4MB of L2 cache, which shared between their dual 64-bit cores."

Now wouldn't that be a great chip for a Mac subnotebook?

I was really amazed by the iPhone, but wouldn't mind some news on the Mac-front...

[Sub]

I really have to agree with slugslugslug, just watch the site's other predictions and see if a good amount come to be true.

[SierraDragon]

Either a "Macbook Thin" and/or a 13" MBP, which would be thin, meaningfully lighter and more pro than the MBs. There is a big hole in the laptop line and I am convinced Apple will work to fill it with one or both of those new boxes, or perhaps an even a smaller executive 'book; low power lowered performance is fine for folks just running a browser and office apps. Unfortunately I need maximum graphics capability so no small/thin 'books for me.

-Allen Wicks

[Sub]

I'm pretty sure it isn't gonna happen, and that there really isn't a big hole in the laptop line. Apple can be unpredicable, but they have been wise to keep it simple so far.

[Frans]

Mmmm, today another one of those companies who DO think there is a market for subnotebooks brought a new model to the US-market: Fujitsu's P7230.

Boy oh boy:
- 2,6 kg
- DVD built in
- 80 Gb
- 1 Gb memory
- webcam

Less interesting:
- one core 1,2 Ghz
- 10,6 " screen

Mmmm, not to impressed by the specs...

Electronista | Fujitsu brings MacBook-like P7230 ultraportable to US

[Sub]

Sigh, no matter how hard they try, everything down to making the add looking exactly like a Macbook ad, they still can't get it close to the sexiness of the Macbook, or, much less, the stability, price and specs.

[n_lim]

As a former Rev. A 12" PB owner I would definitely have to disagree that there is no market for a smaller powerbook. I am currently at the strange quandry where I have the money and the inclination to buy a new mac portable(mac-less since I sold the 12" earlier this year), but there is nothing in the line-up that meets what I need.

The macbook isn't a replacement for my 12" because it weighs 5.2lbs compared to the 15" at 5.6lbs compared to the 12" that weighed 4.6lbs. That may not seem like much, but the portability meant that I actually brought the laptop with me much more than when I had a Rev. B 15" TiBook. There is little difference between the weight of the MacBook and the MacBook Pro at the moment so.

I am a design professor so I need the horsepower of a pro laptop to run Adobe and 3D modeling/rendering programs, but I want to remain as portable as possible and plug in to a larger monitor when I need a desktop replacement. I am currently waiting for a full-featured light Pro notebook. I figure that I have until March or April at the latest to make a purchase, hopefully it will be the rumored ultra-light MacBook Pro. I had to buy a PC in addition to my mac in the past because I had to run AutoCad, but I loved OSX so much that I dealt with it. Now with the Intel processors and bootcamp the mac will finally be my only main computer, I just wish that they expanded the line-up. I think there is a bigger market among business users for a smaller full-featured laptop than there would be for the 17", but perhaps the economies of being able to charge more for a bigger screen keeps apple away from the small MacBook Pro that so many of us are wanting?

[Frans]

OK, so now AppleInsider claims that the subnotebook is on it's way. Oh boy oh boy oh boy, they have been very reliable, so that could mean it's finally going to happen....
The text is almost lyrical: "So it's almost uncanny that Jobs, nearly ten years from the day the PowerBook 2400 first saw light, will revitalize Apple's footprint in the sub-notebook sector with a petite MacBook that promises to be everything a modern day 2400 should be, and much, much more."
Rumor is that it will have no optical drive (i say yeah!) and on board NAND-flash (yeah!).Target launch date around WWDC (that's june...

AppleInsider | Apple to re-enter the sub-notebook market

[coincopy]

As it stands, Apple has some of the ''sleekest'' laptops around. IMO asking for lighter and smaller is going to compromise much of what we have come to love, power and speed. My 2 cents.

[slugslugslug]

I saw that AI article this morning, and I knew Frans would be bumping this thread. Now it's time to get excited. AppleInsider isn't perfect, but they're among the most reliable. And the amount of space they've devoted to that article makes me think they have really good sources on this one.

Originally Posted by coincopy

As it stands, Apple has some of the ''sleekest'' laptops around. IMO asking for lighter and smaller is going to compromise much of what we have come to love, power and speed. My 2 cents.

What you're forgetting is that many of us who are asking for lighter and smaller are perfectly willing to compromise power and speed. I'm always going around with a ton of textbooks, notebooks, and folders in my bag. The less weight my laptop adds to that pile, the better. I would imagine any current Intel Mac feels at least as fast as my iMac G5, so if Apple puts in a slightly underpowered processor, I won't suffer.

[shabbasuraj]

Apple will not release such a device anytime (i.e., 2-3 years) in the future.

[fisherKing]

Originally Posted by shabbasuraj 

Apple will not release such a device anytime (i.e., 2-3 years) in the future.

16feb2007macnn front page

[SierraDragon]

The 12" PBs were successful.
The Duos with their docks were excellent.
There is a substantial "executive laptop" market segment.
That segment generally does not need max power.

IMO we will see a smaller 'book of some kind.

-Allen Wicks

[MacnnGregor]

What is with so many here asking for a 12" screen subnotebook?!!? A 12" screen is in no way a subnotebook people! That is an iBook.

If you want a subnotebook you want something around 10" screens or less. If you don't want that, then you don't really want a subnotebook, inho.

Regardless I think Apple will do more than merely make a smaller MacBook. They have the technology to make a true ebook, paperback-sized clamshell or tablet with multi-touch and optimized UI and apps to create a better device than the tiny Vaio's.

With flash memory and multi-core, low-wattage processors there really isn't a compromise of size over performance for anything less than PhotoShop and those kinds of apps. There will be a compromise with price, though.

[fisherKing]

all i know is...
my 12" 1.5 powerbook is NEAR perfect; size, weight.
i can run all my apps (most taxing: logic rewired to reason); but ps2, inD2, etc.

i want an intel equivilent; better speed, bigger HD, more ram (and a backlit keyboard would be great).

i'll continue to use my pb for now, but hope a 12" mbp happens...

[mduell]

Originally Posted by MacnnGregor 

What is with so many here asking for a 12" screen subnotebook?!!? A 12" screen is in no way a subnotebook people! That is an iBook.

If you want a subnotebook you want something around 10" screens or less. If you don't want that, then you don't really want a subnotebook, inho.

When it's 3lb and less than an inch thick, I think a laptop can be called a subnotebook even with a 12" screen.

[shabbasuraj]

Originally Posted by fisherKing 

16feb2007macnn front page

vapourware

[Geordiekeith]

All the debate over power and performance is missing something - the people who will want a sub-powerboook, or Mac-notebook, are looking for just that - a notebook. Something to get e-mail, do some surfing, read and write in "Word and Excel" and present with "Powerpoint" (or equivalents), save photos from a digital camera and watch movies on the plane or train. All this needs an adequate processor speed, not the latest fastest cpu - so some sacrifices can be made, for size and battery life. I already do this with my 12" Powerbook, but even that is sometinmes too heavy to take with me.
Someone who is into designing, Photoshopping or processing video will not be satisfied with a small screen notebook anyway.
I was in Bussels last week for a conference involving editors, publishers, writers and scientists. Many had their computers out during the sessions: I saw one iBook, two 12" Powerbooks, a couple of 15" PCs, but a lot of notebook PCs which were the ideal tool for those taking notes, or reading their mails throughout the day, and which were in no danger of falling off the shelf-like lecture hall tables.

Bring it on Apple, I will buy one.

[iowagaian]

How about an enhanced video ipod running the iphone OS? I'm thinking wireless, twice the screen size of the iphone, perhaps both flash and hard drive. If the pricepoint was right, I think they'd sell like hotcakes. Combo video ipod/organizer.

[Frans]

I'm totally with Geordiekeith :-), it's exactly that

[Dan Oblak - MacBigot.com]

...is no reason to think that Apple can't sell a reasonably-priced sub into the consumer market. Keeping in mind that the price-point for these gems has always been $1200 and above ($1800+ for the marginally useful entries), it's no wonder that few fence-sitting consumers have made the leap to a new format.

But the chatter has always been, "bring it, and bring it at a reasonable price, and we'll hop on board!".

The reason prices haven't dropped is that no one has generated a runaway hit that can be manufactured in large numbers (large numbers equate to lower cost-per-unit). Does Apple have the muscle to force the price-point down to a level that will make a smaller form-factor self-sustaining? I'm thinking yes -- but only if they target the machine into the consumer arena, where no one else has tread.

Thinking on previous attempts, I see plenty of great little machines targeted at business travelers -- but without the muscle required to attract long-term love affairs. But if you can get college (and high school?) students, teeny-boppers (you know, all those annoying 12-15-yr-old girls that seem to have had cell phones since they could walk), and doctors offices to take a peek at them, Apple might have a chance.

Just bring it in under $700, and sell the external optical drive as an optional accessory -- and within a couple of years, you'll see dozens of knock-offs made by HP, Toshiba, Sony, et al...

We've been waiting for Apple (or someone) to do this for a long time; and maybe, just maybe, the parts can be cobbled together at a recent price for the first time in today's market.

MacBigot Cached Glances: Dear Steve: THIS is what we want...
MacBigot Cached Glances: OQO growing on me...
MacBigot Cached Glances: What hasn't Apple done for portables (yet) could be right around the corner

[olePigeon]

How about a subnotebook with a swivel top (or fold-back top) and stylus? That'd be cool.

[phoenix78]

It would be very nice to see a smaller offering from apple even though i personally feel that anything smaller than a 13" mb is too small. Unless you have an ultra high res screen and 20/20 vision you will need to be scrolling up/down and also sideways. That would get unbelievably annoying IMO.

As far as weight is concerned i cant imagine the casing getting any thinner. macbooks are already super thin compared to other manufacturers. Going too thin will make the laptop too flimsy regardless of fabrication and also the components need to be able to fit.

But having seen the sony sz which has carbon fibre and LED tech in the screen to make the screen ultra thin, if apple were to use that then you may get some savings in weight/thinness but not by much.

rob.