[budster101]

effgee. Great work.

[andretan]

Actually, with CSS and all that, wouldn't it be easier if we had a jump box thingy at the side that would us to pick whatever design/theme we want to use?

No?

[effgee]

Originally posted by andretan:
Actually, with CSS and all that, wouldn't it be easier if we had a jump box thingy at the side that would us to pick whatever design/theme we want to use? No?

Theoretically - yes.

Practically, and I'm not refering to the stuff I threw together but to a business POV, that would probably be a bad idea. After all, MacNN is a business that needs to generate revenue in order to survive (at least that's my understanding). And part of running a successful business is the development of a consistent brand image - people need to be able to immediately recognize where they are and associate the brand (MacNN) with the product (news, forum, etc.)

Look at it from another perspective - wouldn't you be surprised if one day, you went to the Apple website and there was a drop-down menu from where you could choose a layout/design that you liked best? Same/similar thing with MacNN - only on a smaller scale

Aside from the brand issue, there's also quite a few practical questions why I wouldn't want to touch this issue with a 10ft. pole - how many layouts/designs is enough? Three? Five? Ten?

A different animal is to utilize a style sheet switcher for accessibility purposes - e.g., one full-blown version and another one that is (more or less) text-only. But for a "corporate" site - and no matter how you look at it, that's what we have here - I probably wouldn't recommend going that route, either. There's other ways to automatically satisfy the needs of certain parts of your target audience, like users with disablities, mobile devices, etc.

[andretan]

Oh yeah, and all that.

Can't wait to see one of your designs being put into action! ALL of them look great!

[Turias]

I'm guessing the sudden quiet is because Nick and effgee took this off-boards.

I feel so out of the loop...

[ManOfSteal]

Originally posted by Turias:
I'm guessing the sudden quiet is because Nick and effgee took this off-boards.

I feel so out of the loop...

Haha, no kidding. What's the latest? How much of effgee's design will implemented?

[KeyLimePi]

Don't be in any hurry. As we speak I'm scambling to incorporate as many of eff's design elements as I can into my site. If I finish mine first, I can claim it as 'the original.'

[Oisín]

Originally posted by KeyLimePi:
Don't be in any hurry. As we speak I'm scambling to incorporate as many of eff's design elements as I can into my site. If I finish mine first, I can claim it as 'the original.'

Bah, my stolen effgee design site's already been online for almost a week!

[TheIceMan]

It's been 3 months, any word on this "proposed MacNN redesign" Nick? everyday, I stop by hoping that you guys have adopted effgee's designs.

[OwlBoy]

Originally Posted by TheIceMan

It's been 3 months, any word on this "proposed MacNN redesign" Nick? everyday, I stop by hoping that you guys have adopted effgee's designs.

I agree! whats going on!?

-Owl

[Superchicken]

I think they realized just how much work goes into designing a layout... hahaha... by the way this is MacNN remember you don't have to worry about IE compatability!

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Superchicken

I think they realized just how much work goes into designing a layout... hahaha... by the way this is MacNN remember you don't have to worry about IE compatability!

Ya u do, 90% of the time im on here with IE, and what about switchers that are looking for information before buying, they will prob be on IE too.

[Eynstyn]

Leave it the way it is. There's a thing called, 'too much tampering.' Just cuz some fancy assed designer is tryin to make a name for himself or justify his position doesn't mean smarter, wiser heads have to buy into it. It ain't broke. Don't "fix" it.

[:XI:]

Originally Posted by Eynstyn

Leave it the way it is. There's a thing called, 'too much tampering.' Just cuz some fancy assed designer is tryin to make a name for himself or justify his position doesn't mean smarter, wiser heads have to buy into it. It ain't broke. Don't "fix" it.

Yeah, while we're at it, let's not make things better either.

Idiot.

[Eynstyn]

Originally Posted by :XI:

Yeah, while we're at it, let's not make things better either.

Idiot.

You are just pissed because you were one of ONLY 17 people to like New Coke but thought everybody else was stoopid for not loving it!

"But what about PROGRESS!!!???!!! Don't you IDIOTS understand progress??? It's all about making Coke BETTER!!!!! Oh, you FOOLS! "

Hawwwwwww!!!!! Arghfuhhhhaawwwwww! lololololololol

Maybe you are the fancy assed designer? Ooops, sorry. I didn't mean to pee on your corn flakes. But change for the sake of change is like a hand job after you just got off. Who needs it? Only the prostitute who needs a 'trick.'

You? Hahaha! There must be some websites that would LOVE to have a spiffy new design. Sites that REALLY need it. It would still count on your resume if you re-designed a site that was actually shiity.

Well, go out and find a real client!

Try nrg.com (ugh). Their content, the products they manufacture and sell, is confined in a crappy little space about a third of the page. The rest of the page is for static link buttons and stuff.

Idiot.

[xi_hyperon]

Originally Posted by Athens

Ya u do, 90% of the time im on here with IE, and what about switchers that are looking for information before buying, they will prob be on IE too.

Agreed. It's sometimes time-consuming to make workarounds for Internet Exploder, but it's better to do that than limit accessibility to Mac users and Firefox on PC users.

[:XI:]

Originally Posted by Eynstyn

You are just pissed because you were one of ONLY 17 people to like New Coke but thought everybody else was stoopid for not loving it!

"But what about PROGRESS!!!???!!! Don't you IDIOTS understand progress??? It's all about making Coke BETTER!!!!! Oh, you FOOLS! "

Hawwwwwww!!!!! Arghfuhhhhaawwwwww! lololololololol

Maybe you are the fancy assed designer? Ooops, sorry. I didn't mean to pee on your corn flakes. But change for the sake of change is like a hand job after you just got off. Who needs it? Only the prostitute who needs a 'trick.'

You? Hahaha! There must be some websites that would LOVE to have a spiffy new design. Sites that REALLY need it. It would still count on your resume if you re-designed a site that was actually shiity.

Well, go out and find a real client!

Try nrg.com (ugh). Their content, the products they manufacture and sell, is confined in a crappy little space about a third of the page. The rest of the page is for static link buttons and stuff.

Idiot.

I don't drink coke. Old or new.

I'm not a designer. Fancy assed or otherwise.

I put milk on my corn flakes.

I agree, change for the sake of change is pointless. But a refesh every once in a while to prevent things becoming stale or dated is a good thing.

I'm not making any money from this. MacNN is not my client.

Does it really matter to you if the people behind MacNN want to give the place a make over?

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" but if it's dated, update it.

The designs are done and the implementation is well underway.

[d.fine]

me wanna see, it's gonna be a kickass forum !

[KeyLimePi]

Originally Posted by KeyLimePi

Don't be in any hurry. As we speak I'm scambling to incorporate as many of eff's design elements as I can into my site.

Wow, I guess I better hurry up and finish my FJ Cruiser site, which is pretty much a complete rip-off of effgee's MacNN design (I'm not proud of it, mind you, but it didn't look like MacNN was gonna use it. And I hated to see such a clean design go to waste).

It doesn't look like that.

[timmerk]

Mind showing us a peak of the final layout? I can't wait! :-)

[TheIceMan]

Oh no, not another teaser shot!

[SomeToast]

Originally Posted by Nick

It doesn't look like that.

So it's not going to be a fixed-width layout? ::whew!:: Thank god -- close call!

[Eynstyn]

Originally Posted by :XI:

I don't drink coke. Old or new.

I'm not a designer. Fancy assed or otherwise.

I put milk on my corn flakes.

I agree, change for the sake of change is pointless. But a refesh every once in a while to prevent things becoming stale or dated is a good thing.

I'm not making any money from this. MacNN is not my client.

Does it really matter to you if the people behind MacNN want to give the place a make over?

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" but if it's dated, update it.

Only in principle.

However, in the past I HAVE become personally affected by this, "if it's dated, update it" philosophy.

In the 1980's I became a fan of the Oral B toothbrush. They were plain, no nonsense, straightforward and they worked well. They fit any bathroom toothbrush holder. They fit the hand and mouth. They reminded me of what my Social Studies teacher said about ancient Greek architecture, it was very practical and could be summed up with the description, form followed function. There was no ornamentation except where function could be made beautiful...or appreciated for it's simplicity.

Well, the other day I went to the store looking for an Oral B and there were none. Well, actually there were, but they had changed. They had a wild and crazy, funny new packaging and the handles were now bent and widened. The wouldn't fit my travelling toothbrush holder. They wouldn't fit my bathroom toothbrush holder. They didn't fit my hand or mouth any better than they did before. But they were changed.

So, I was faced with the option of replacing my holders and buying the new fangled brush just to be a slave to 'fashion' or I could stand my ground on principle.

Guess which route I took?

Right!

It's been 3 weeks since I brushed my teeth and the smell isn't as bad as you might think. The only thing is that my clients are acting differently towards me lately. But that's a small price to pay for a principle! My gums are starting to bleed, also. Kinda like the scene in "Fight Club" where Edward Norton exposes his teeth and gums in a bloody grin to his prick of a boss.

But back to the issue at hand...

There are two kinds of people in the world: Fashionable people and those who don't live at the mercy of fashion. (I could elaborate but just decided not to.)

In advertising, there's a well established rule of thumb that you don't change an ad campaign that is producing results. Yet, every day, young (or maybe not so young) fashionables persuade their bosses to update their company's (or client's) venerable but still effective ad campaigns merely for the sake of updating it/them.

Only a few times (and usually by luck rather than by skill or smarts) does the subsequent campaign produce as well as the one it replaced.

(Any advertising or marketing people want to jump in here?)

The desire to change or update or refresh something is a purely emotional desire. When you are re-arranging your living room and your "mover" doesn't mind (or the happy hubby doesn't complain TOO much) then re-arrange away! Knock yourself out. Why not try a new coat of paint while you're at it?

But, when you are dealing with a marketing decision, you have to have more reason to make a change than it just seems like it would be nice to make a change.

Again, I am principally opposed to making a change simply because something is "dated."

However, I'd bet interior design would be a good place to use that line. I think it would go over well.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" but if it's dated, update it. Ha! That's pretty damn good. It shouldn't apply in this case, but it's a good line!

[Eynstyn]

Originally Posted by Nick

The designs are done and the implementation is well underway.

Just curious. Was there a problem with the old design? Did you do any research? Assemble any focus groups? What will the new design accomplish? Have you tested it yet?

Wouldn't it be funny if, even if it is pleasant to look at, the new design actually results in fewer sales?

[Mediaman_12]

Originally Posted by Eynstyn

Just curious. Was there a problem with the old design? Did you do any research? Assemble any focus groups? What will the new design accomplish? Have you tested it yet?

Wouldn't it be funny if, even if it is pleasant to look at, the new design actually results in fewer sales?

Just look at the HTML source of both the front page, and these forums. They are constructed in an 'Turn of the millennium' HTML code hack fashion with loads of embedded tables bloating the page code to control the layout. Non of the pages conform to any HTML standard. There may be no problem with the old 'design' (as in the look of the pages), but there certainly is with the implementation.
So as the pages needed a total rebuild anyway, it makes sense to update the look.
To use your interior design metaphor. If all four walls of a room need re-plastering, you may as well use it as an opportunity to try a different colour scheme (maybe there is a new paint colour available that wasn't last time you did the walls).

[himself]

Originally Posted by Turias

I'm guessing the sudden quiet is because Nick and effgee took this off-boards.

I feel so out of the loop...

I think its a good thing he took it down and didn't leave it open to public input — Design By Comittee® is rarely a good thing.

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Anyone who would letterspace lowercase would steal sheep.

[himself]

Oh yeah, I look forward to seeing the new design, and hopefully soon.

Originally Posted by Eynstyn

Just curious. Was there a problem with the old design?

No one ever loved the current design. It was "acceptable" to most, but never looked great. The same basic design has been around since 2000. There have been various revisions, but it has never been redone.

Originally Posted by Eynstyn

Did you do any research? Assemble any focus groups? What will the new design accomplish? Have you tested it yet?

All I can say is everyone who has seen the new design has had a very favorable reaction to it.

The current design is not "professional" enough to compete today. A professional looking design attracts new readers more effectively than an amateur design.

Also, we need a new uniform design that will work for all 3-4 'nn sites.

[himself]

Originally Posted by Eynstyn

Only in principle.

However, in the past I HAVE become personally affected by this, "if it's dated, update it" philosophy.

...

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" but if it's dated, update it. Ha! That's pretty damn good. It shouldn't apply in this case, but it's a good line!

Change is inevitable. That said, any organization that wants to stay "on top of things" must constantly gauge what it's audience is receptive to. Audience tastes and the audiences themselves are in a constant state of flux, and any organization that doesn't take that into account is risking falling into obscurity.

it may seem logical that sticking to a working formula indefinitely (often for nostalgic reasons alone) is a good plan, but in reality it almost ensures that your current audience will decline, as new potential customers often can't relate to the nostalgia of an old image, and current audience members leave, for one reason or another. It is about constantly making your existence and your product relevant to those who don't know of you as well as to those who do. If the substance is there (and in the case of MacNN, I believe that it is, for the most part), a thoroughly considered "re-freshening" can't hurt. Also, it is a good idea to undertake a change such as this if there is an opportunity to take advantage of. Obviously, it wouldn't be smart for any organization to sit by with its current roadmap if a lucrative opening suddenly became available.

I do believe in the "if it ain't broke..." adage, but I also believe that if you can improve on what you currently have, there are few reasons not to do so. So far, I think what has been proposed is, on balance, an improvement on what is currently up.

[Eynstyn]

Originally Posted by himself

Change is inevitable. That said, any organization that wants to stay "on top of things" must constantly gauge what it's audience is receptive to. Audience tastes and the audiences themselves are in a constant state of flux, and any organization that doesn't take that into account is risking falling into obscurity.

it may seem logical that sticking to a working formula indefinitely (often for nostalgic reasons alone) is a good plan, but in reality it almost ensures that your current audience will decline, as new potential customers often can't relate to the nostalgia of an old image, and current audience members leave, for one reason or another. It is about constantly making your existence and your product relevant to those who don't know of you as well as to those who do. If the substance is there (and in the case of MacNN, I believe that it is, for the most part), a thoroughly considered "re-freshening" can't hurt. Also, it is a good idea to undertake a change such as this if there is an opportunity to take advantage of. Obviously, it wouldn't be smart for any organization to sit by with its current roadmap if a lucrative opening suddenly became available.

I do believe in the "if it ain't broke..." adage, but I also believe that if you can improve on what you currently have, there are few reasons not to do so. So far, I think what has been proposed is, on balance, an improvement on what is currently up.

Just remember this. People make decisions emotionally and AFTER the fact look for logical and practical reasons to JUSTIFY or support those emotional decisions.

ONE more story to make a point. My mother liked to keep a beautiful home. Very dramatic use of color and textures gave you a strange mixture of feelings. Relaxation and comfort but also provocotive and exciting.

This is just one example of how she sometimes sacrificed practicality for the sake of fashion or comfort.

On the kitchen floor, a place subject to sticky, greasy and bacteria laden food spills, she installed dark grey colored FABRIC textured floor tiles because they looked different and because they FELT good when she was padding around the house in her bare feet.

Every time I walked in her kitchen I automatically suspended the '2 second rule.'

ANY FOOD that hit the floor was considered toxic IMMEDIATELY!!! Contaminated by years of food buried in a liliputian jungle where at least some food particles would escape being vacuumed and PineSol could never adequately disinfect.

Emotion based decisionmaking is not to be trusted unless you can live with the ramifications.

If you make a decision based primarily on emotion and the worst case scenario comes to pass if you can live with the results and laugh and no one is hurt and the $$ loss (if any) won't make or break you and it won't prevent you from keeping your house neat and clean, then go for it.

If you guys are all hepped up (I intentionally use an archaic term here to position myself as older and wiser in your minds than the young wise ass you might suppose me to be.) on the NEED to change the design at least I've provided you a dissenting opinion.

Good luck.

[tikki]

Originally Posted by Nick

No one ever loved the current design. It was "acceptable" to most, but never looked great. The same basic design has been around since 2000. There have been various revisions, but it has never been redone.

It took three years to figure that out? :-P

Even more than a new design, I hope there is more original content on the front page. Getting rehashes of stuff I have already read on MacMinute sucks (and vice versa for that matter).

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Eynstyn

In the 1980's I became a fan of the Oral B toothbrush. They were plain, no nonsense, straightforward and they worked well.
...

Well, the other day I went to the store looking for an Oral B and there were none. Well, actually there were, but they had changed. They had a wild and crazy, funny new packaging and the handles were now bent and widened.

So it's not just me who's pissed at the disappearance of the good old square toothbrush? I stocked up on the old model brush when I saw the new ones coming out, but that stash didn't last forever.

I have discovered that the grocery store has a store-brand brush that is a reasonable facsimile of the old-fashioned Oral B. And they're 99¢ a piece!

tooki

[brapper]

Originally Posted by Nick

Also, we need a new uniform design that will work for all 3-4 'nn sites.

now we're up to 4???
macnn, ipodnn, ______, ________?

[himself]

Originally Posted by Eynstyn

Just remember this. People make decisions emotionally and AFTER the fact look for logical and practical reasons to JUSTIFY or support those emotional decisions.

ONE more story to make a point. My mother liked to keep a beautiful home. Very dramatic use of color and textures gave you a strange mixture of feelings. Relaxation and comfort but also provocotive and exciting.

This is just one example of how she sometimes sacrificed practicality for the sake of fashion or comfort.

On the kitchen floor, a place subject to sticky, greasy and bacteria laden food spills, she installed dark grey colored FABRIC textured floor tiles because they looked different and because they FELT good when she was padding around the house in her bare feet.

Every time I walked in her kitchen I automatically suspended the '2 second rule.'

ANY FOOD that hit the floor was considered toxic IMMEDIATELY!!! Contaminated by years of food buried in a liliputian jungle where at least some food particles would escape being vacuumed and PineSol could never adequately disinfect.

Emotion based decisionmaking is not to be trusted unless you can live with the ramifications.

If you make a decision based primarily on emotion and the worst case scenario comes to pass if you can live with the results and laugh and no one is hurt and the $$ loss (if any) won't make or break you and it won't prevent you from keeping your house neat and clean, then go for it.

If you guys are all hepped up (I intentionally use an archaic term here to position myself as older and wiser in your minds than the young wise ass you might suppose me to be.) on the NEED to change the design at least I've provided you a dissenting opinion.

Good luck.

I understand the point you're trying to make... but in your example, the decision your mother made was purely based on sentiment (how it felt when walking barefoot), with no consideration to function. If she had employed the help of, say, a professional interior designer (or did some research into the topic of kitchen remodeling/redecorating), she would have quickly found out that fabric surfaces in kitchen areas is a big no-no.

As I mentioned in my previous post, these decisions must be thoroughly considered before making the move. That would mean for example, considering the consequences of using a fabric surface material in a kitchen. I assume that this redesign decision has been well thought out, since it hasn't been rushed (and it shouldn't be rushed if it is to be done right), and there has been consultation with at least one design professional (who seems to know what he is doing) and the rest of the MacNN staff.

Change is going to come eventually. It has to. This change is not going to please everyone (no change ever does), but it shouldn't aim to. If the result is a good one, just about everyone will adapt soon afterwards anyway.

[Eynstyn]

Originally Posted by tooki

So it's not just me who's pissed at the disappearance of the good old square toothbrush? I stocked up on the old model brush when I saw the new ones coming out, but that stash didn't last forever.

I have discovered that the grocery store has a store-brand brush that is a reasonable facsimile of the old-fashioned Oral B. And they're 99¢ a piece!

tooki

You can't imagine what strange feelings your post evokes in me. Eynstyn never expects to find common ground with anyone at macnn.

And until now never dreamed he MIGHT not hate it.

Eynstyn must think this through.

Note to self: Visit dollar stores for good toothbrushes.

Is, "tooki," inspired by George of the Jungle?



#JW25 - Jay Ward - 'GEORGE OF THE JUNGLE', 1967. This is a very rare original drawing from the MAIN TITLE SEQUENCE of 'GEORGE OF THE JUNGLE' (ABC TV SHOW).

The drawing shows a very distressed LION feeling good after eating the TOOKI TOOKI BIRD, rendered in graphite, red and blue pencil.

The drawing is on a full sheet with image area measureing 9.00' X 7.00', bearing production number 24 - SC1 GEO OPEN 60. Drawing has minor stains, bearing blue animator notes.

*$205

[macaddict0001]

I think that the "jump to forum" menu and the "go" button need custom designs so that the poor souls living in a windows world have something nice to look at. Other than that I really like effgee's designs.

[- - e r i k - -]

So, now that ipodnn has been a test-bed for a while, how long until we see it on regular news?

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Eynstyn

You can't imagine what strange feelings your post evokes in me. Eynstyn never expects to find common ground with anyone at macnn.

And until now never dreamed he MIGHT not hate it.

Eynstyn must think this through.

Note to self: Visit dollar stores for good toothbrushes.

Is, "tooki," inspired by George of the Jungle?



#JW25 - Jay Ward - 'GEORGE OF THE JUNGLE', 1967. This is a very rare original drawing from the MAIN TITLE SEQUENCE of 'GEORGE OF THE JUNGLE' (ABC TV SHOW).

The drawing shows a very distressed LION feeling good after eating the TOOKI TOOKI BIRD, rendered in graphite, red and blue pencil.

The drawing is on a full sheet with image area measureing 9.00' X 7.00', bearing production number 24 - SC1 GEO OPEN 60. Drawing has minor stains, bearing blue animator notes.

*$205

Hehe, sorry to crack the cynicism mirror!

If there's one thing I've learned, it's that no matter how weird or obscure a thought or interest or idea I've had, someone else has had it, too. :sigh:

Don't get dollar-store toothbrushes, those are awful -- the bristles are much too hard. But the generic brushes at the grocery store work great.

As for "tooki" -- you're the first person to nail the connection. I love toucans (those, and polar bears), and tooki makes a great screen name. Just don't tell anyone, I wanna keep it a secret!

tooki

Originally Posted by tikki

It took three years to figure that out? :-P

Even more than a new design, I hope there is more original content on the front page. Getting rehashes of stuff I have already read on MacMinute sucks (and vice versa for that matter).

The problem is that you're talking about two sites that are basically doing the same thing. What draws people to MacNN over the competition is that you have the core content, plus several other layers of usefulness.

Currently, the second big thing MacNN has is the community. We have a great forums and that can't be easily recreated. We're also introducing blogs, which are a further extension of the community.

We've also increased the amount of reviews, and that should slowly become an enjoyable aspect of the site for readers.

Now with iPodNN, iPod enthusiasts don't have to go far to get the latest iPod news.

The two new sites will round out the complete package, meaning MacNN will eventually be a one-stop reliable source for Apple news. This is where you may see some "new types of content." There's a few things we're going to do differently than the competition.

The new design will create a greater sense of integration between all these components. We're also going to work to better integrate the forums with the rest of the content.

[brapper]

Originally Posted by Nick

snippy

aah....so, MacNN, iPodNN, blogs.MacNN.com, _______ (one more to figure out...)

Actually, blogs, reviews, and featured reports will be sub sections of MacNN and iPodNN. They will not be branded individually. At first we will just launch macnn, ipodnn, and forums with the new design. Then we'll get the other sites up.

[macaddict0001]

Originally Posted by brapper

aah....so, MacNN, iPodNN, blogs.MacNN.com, _______ (one more to figure out...)

You forgot about the irc channel link.

[brapper]

Originally Posted by Nick

Actually, blogs, reviews, and featured reports will be sub sections of MacNN and iPodNN. They will not be branded individually. At first we will just launch macnn, ipodnn, and forums with the new design. Then we'll get the other sites up.

that's not much of a hint...

[Eynstyn]

Originally Posted by tooki

Hehe, sorry to crack the cynicism mirror!

Seeing as how we've never (at least not to my knowledge ) had any interaction before this thread I am willing to take a few tentative steps along this path -- what might be called -- "my walk on the mild side."

If there's one thing I've learned, it's that no matter how weird or obscure a thought or interest or idea I've had, someone else has had it, too. :sigh:

I have an idea NO ONE has done anything with yet.

It's such an OBVIOUS and OBVIOUSLY SIMPLE and SIMPLY BRILLIANT idea I refuse to allow myself to become too enthused over it because I have no way of protecting such an idea.

So, I just wait for someone else to eventually come along with the $$ and the guts and the smarts and they will become legends in their own time...bigger than Gates, more respected than Jobs and wealthier than them both.

When that day comes I will say to you, "tooki, that was the idea I was talking about."

It will be THE next big idea. A worldwide, life changing concept with a scope that is breathtaking to behold and a humbling simplicity.

Yes, someone will become rich from this idea. God grants provisional patents and conditional copyrights only.

Don't get dollar-store toothbrushes, those are awful -- the bristles are much too hard. But the generic brushes at the grocery store work great.

Yes, I tried a $ store model and the bristles aren't polished. Oww and bloody gums, yuck. It is my local grocer who stopped stocking the normal brushes! I may have to go the on-line route.

As for "tooki" -- you're the first person to nail the connection. I love toucans (those, and polar bears), and tooki makes a great screen name. Just don't tell anyone, I wanna keep it a secret!

tooki

But, of course I would nail it and by the same 'tooken' keep it under my hat!

For I am Eynstyn.

[TheIceMan]

Nick: Updates please.

[Demonhood]

i haven't had time to touch it recently. there is a lot to update. and by a lot, i mean a metric ton.
it's pretty close to one of effgee's old mockups. so all new colors, all new graphics, and a very spiffy menu system for all the NN sites.

[TheIceMan]

Thanks for the heads up.

[doucy2]

umm i like it
but the old style is just fine with me