[JKT]

I think I have seen this mentioned in threads elsewhere, but it hasn't been posted separately... has it occurred to people that the new unified look has the potential to make using OS X more difficult? In particular, I am thinking of Exposé. In 10.3 and 10.4, the visual difference between the windows of differing apps makes it easy to quickly identify which windows belong to which app, especially when you are exposing several windows at once (where the scaling is much higher so they become less visually clear as to their contents). With a grand unified theme, this is no longer going to be the case. All windows are now going to look very similar with (potentially) only e.g. icons in toolbars to differentiate them.

Anyone with experience of Leopard care to comment (assuming that this wouldn't be a violation of your NDA)?

[Chuckit]

Do you really use a lot of identical apps with only the the color of the titlebar and the contents of their toolbars to distinguish one from the others?

[- - e r i k - -]

I have used for a couple of years and have never had that problem. I usually run between 10-20 apps at the time with lots and lots of Windows open on two monitors. Using Exposé isn't really a problem at all.

[JKT]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Do you really use a lot of identical apps with only the the color of the titlebar and the contents of their toolbars to distinguish one from the others?

Not at the moment I don't, but that is my point - come Leopard I might. E.g. is an iTunes window going to look drastically different from a Finder window (if both are in List or Cover Flow view)? Is an OmniOutliner window going to look drastically different from a Mail window, etc?

At the moment the difference is night and day. For example if I expose all my application windows right now, of the four apps that I have open, each window style is totally different to the other. Even though they are all the same size, I can see what I want immediately. I'm not saying this is going to be dreadful under Leopard, but is it going to be harder to find what I want straight away?

[Luca Rescigno]

I love the unified look. Basically, it's brushed metal without the brushed metal. I like being able to drag the window from anywhere, not just the title bar. The other looks (aqua/pinstripes and brushed metal) are distracting and busy. Unified is just a smooth, gray gradient.

[JKT]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

I have used for a couple of years and have never had that problem. I usually run between 10-20 apps at the time with lots and lots of Windows open on two monitors. Using Exposé isn't really a problem at all.

Well, for starters you have 2 monitors and presumably a fairly high combined resolution - what about those of us on a relatively low resolution single monitor. As it is at the moment, it is easy enough to distinguish between the windows of individual apps, but not so easy between the windows of the same app. What is it going to be like when all the apps look the same as well?

[JKT]

Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno 

I love the unified look. Basically, it's brushed metal without the brushed metal. I like being able to drag the window from anywhere, not just the title bar. The other looks (aqua/pinstripes and brushed metal) are distracting and busy. Unified is just a smooth, gray gradient.

...which has very, very little to do with my question.

Edit: I see why you posted that now - I am not talking about the theme itself, I am talking about the unification of all windowing themes to be the same for all apps.

Edit 2: FWIW, I find the unified theme deathly dull. It is by far and away the most boring, uninteresting theme that Apple has produced for the OS since System 7.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by JKT 

Not at the moment I don't, but that is my point - come Leopard I might. E.g. is an iTunes window going to look drastically different from a Finder window (if both are in List or Cover Flow view)?

Probably not, as Finder is now modeled after iTunes. That would be true regardless of any systemwide unification, however.

Originally Posted by JKT 

Is an OmniOutliner window going to look drastically different from a Mail window, etc?

As much as it does now, yes. In fact, there will be no difference except that they'll both be a little darker, as they're both already unified.

Originally Posted by JKT 

At the moment the difference is night and day. For example if I expose all my application windows right now, of the four apps that I have open, each window style is totally different to the other. Even though they are all the same size, I can see what I want immediately. I'm not saying this is going to be dreadful under Leopard, but is it going to be harder to find what I want straight away?

I don't think so. All the apps I use do different things, and thus have fairly different interfaces. Even intentionally similar apps that use the same theme like NetNewsWire and Mail are usually different enough that I don't find myself getting confused, though I think that particular case is pushing it.

[OreoCookie]

I don't think that's going to be a problem (I use UNO, yeah ). Honestly, Apple's idea of working with your computer is document-centric. And my TextMate document looks very different from the PDF in TeXShop that is opened alongside. Even if the Finder looks like iTunes, you still have a similar situation when you use UNO: Adress Book and Finder windows are (on my system) of similar size shape and the content might look similar on first glance. I have never had a problem distinguishing the two. I think Apple might even be able to do away with iTunes and we all use the Finder for playing songs … (I'm just dreaming of course.)

I also think that the `New Finder' will be a first iteration on what is to come. You note that there was no mention of meta data as the next-best thing and I think it's wise to take several steps towards that goal (if Apple will do that is sheer speculation on my part). I don't think they'll present any revolutions in the next few years, it'll be rather evolutions on a very capable base. I kinda like their ansatz: toy with some things like Core Animation and Core Video in some apps (say, Keynote) and then -- once it has matured -- make it system-wide. Same with different UIs, I mean, you see queues of the `new' interface everywhere, particularly iTunes seems to have been the test bed of how the users would react towards it.

[JKT]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

As much as it does now, yes. In fact, there will be no difference except that they'll both be a little darker, as they're both already unified.

Nope - OmniOutliner uses a drawer, Mail uses a sidebar. If OmniOutliner is to be a good Leopard citizen it will also have to adopt the sidebar and drop the drawer (ooer missus). As will every other app out there that currently uses a drawer in place of a sidebar.

Oreocookie - I am not talking about Windows viewed at full size, I'm talking about when they are scaled down (where the content is no longer crisp and fully legible) and randomly distributed during Exposé. When the windows are a fraction of the size they are beforehand, will I still be able to identify which windows belong to which app immediately, as I can do now or won't I. My worry is that it is going to be a lot more difficult once all the windows from every app start looking very similar.

[lpkmckenna]

I use UNO now. I don't have any problem finding windows in Expose, but my windows are shaped very differently for each app. (Safari is large and square, iTunes is small and square, Finder is thin and tall, Mail and iCal are wide and short...)

[OreoCookie]

Well, seems to work for me. I often have several tens of windows open at the same time and I still haven't found any problems distinguishing apps with similar window layouts. Finding the right window within an app is a bigger problem, e. g. when I have to choose between different TextMate or Finder Windows. But even there, Exposé is useful: I just select the right app and then the right window (I have hot corners, so it takes less than a second).

But I see where you are coming from, because it already `is' a problem when choosing between windows of the same app at least. However, personally, I find it much easier if you have one type of interface (which still hasn't happened yet, unless Pro Apps also get the same new look) and then have developers design their apps such that they are easily distinguished from others. It doesn't always work (`The Finder now works like iTunes'), but I still think a unified look has more advantages than disadvantages

[JKT]

It has just occurred to me that, unless Apple and/or other developers break the UI rules, Shiira, OmniWeb, Firefox, Camino and Safari are all going to look very similar to each other, except for their toolbar icons. Doesn't that also strike people as being really, really dumb?

[peeb]

I wouldn't worry too much about this - since when does anyone get that anal about the UI guidelines? The idea that every major app would actually look like every other app seems a little far fetched, even if this is what Apple asked for.

[JKT]

Since so many people have clamoured for a single window appearance since day one of OS X, and since Apple is going to force the look on developers (any alternative appearances will have to be hand coded from now on) it is far more likely that developers are going to adopt the UI guidelines this time around, not necessarily by choice, but because they have no easy means of not doing so.

OK, I'm probably worrying too much, but (especially with my browser example) it does strike me as a strong possibility that there could be some problems with this unification of the window appearance.

[besson3c]

This is a good point. A basic usability lesson is that if you want to be distinguished from other items, you don't look just like all the other items. This means a different color/texture, size, or shape. Naturally, the windows will have different sizes, but I'm not sure if this will be enough to go by.

Then again, Exposé is an advanced courtesy feature, maybe the advantages of this approach outweigh the benefits in improving Exposé thusly.

[Chuckit]

Once again: Most apps already use one of three themes (aqua, metal and unified). If you have more than three apps open and can distinguish between them now, you should be able to distinguish between them later.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Once again: Most apps already use one of three themes (aqua, metal and unified). If you have more than three apps open and can distinguish between them now, you should be able to distinguish between them later.

"Should" is the operative word here.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

"Should" is the operative word here.

I don't know. I mean, there's always the possibility of brain damage or some kind of neurosis that inhibits your basic recognition skills, but it does seem reasonable to assume you'll still be able to distinguish between similar apps just as easily after you've bought Leopard as before.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I don't know. I mean, there's always the possibility of brain damage or some kind of neurosis that inhibits your basic recognition skills, but it does seem reasonable to assume you'll still be able to distinguish between similar apps just as easily after you've bought Leopard as before.

You make too many assumptions.

There is a distinct possibility that with fewer differing window styles that recognition will be harder and slowed. Your point about how if you have more than three windows open this idea is irrelevant is flawed based on the idea that recognition is only possible if each window has a different theme. Each window is set to one of three different styles which are used to differentiate them from one another. There is more differentiation, this is the point.

[JLL]

The unified look is for toolbars, bottom bars and perhaps source lists.

You should be able to tell windows from each other because of their different content.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by JLL 

The unified look is for toolbars, bottom bars and perhaps source lists.

You should be able to tell windows from each other because of their different content.

Most likely, but this will require adequate usability testing to prove. That's all I'm saying. It's not a given, usability testing can reveal unexpected things.

[JKT]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Once again: Most apps already use one of three themes (aqua, metal and unified). If you have more than three apps open and can distinguish between them now, you should be able to distinguish between them later.

And once again it isn't just the theme. There are other visual cues such as drawers or sidebars, different style sidebars (e.g. Finder versus Safari), etc that help distinguish between apps which currently have the same theme. All of this is going, not just the different themes. The whole shebang.

And once again it isn't about being able to distinguish between objects, it is about how rapidly we can distinguish between objects. At the moment, I can do it instantaneously for different apps. Will that be true in Leopard or is their going to be a significant enough delay caused by an absence of strong differentiation that renders Exposé a pain to use (and, therefore, useless if it makes people avoid it)? This is important to me, because Exposé is easily one of the top 5 features of OS X that makes it the most usable OS around.

JLL - what about browsers where the content (though different for each site) is of the same kind? Am I going to be able to easily tell the difference between e.g. a Safari window, an OmniWeb window and a Firefox window when I am testing them on the same pages or site(s)? Or the Finder and iTunes (and other apps) where the content is just lists of text (or has Cover Flow in view)?

Given that people keep mentioning the advantages that a unified appearance will bring, just what are they? Off the top of my head:

People will know what to expect with every type of window they use - all should behave the same. (Score +1 for usability, though this is of most benefit to new users - old hands are used to the quirks each interface theme has).

There will be no confusion for developers as to which theme to use for their app. (Score +1 for consistency).

The distinctiveness of active versus inactive windows will be the same throughout (Score +1 for usability, although it isn't 100% clear how Apple is going to do this yet - from the demos it seems that they have increased the depth of the shadow of the uppermost window making it look a lot higher in the plane, as well as fading the background windows more, but is there anything else done?)

Perhaps (and this is somewhat unlikely) it'll allow Apple to include more than one theme with the OS as changing it will apply to all apps rather than a proportion of them.

It'll finally bring to an end the "brushed metal sucks" howls of outrage, both irrational and rational. (Score +10E99 for reducing PITA commentary every time an app is released in brushed metal).


Are there others, or is that it?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by JKT 

And once again it isn't just the theme. There are other visual cues such as drawers or sidebars, different style sidebars (e.g. Finder versus Safari), etc that help distinguish between apps which currently have the same theme. All of this is going, not just the different themes. The whole shebang.

Um, source?

Originally Posted by JKT 

And once again it isn't about being able to distinguish between objects, it is about how rapidly we can distinguish between objects. At the moment, I can do it instantaneously for different apps. Will that be true in Leopard or is their going to be a significant enough delay caused by an absence of strong differentiation that renders Exposé a pain to use (and, therefore, useless if it makes people avoid it)?

Well, nobody seems to see a problem. That's all I can really say. I can't speak for you, but most people seem all right with it. Personally, I have trouble remembering people's names while they have no trouble remembering mine, so obviously different people have differing mental abilities.

Originally Posted by JKT 

Are there others, or is that it?

The benefits of consistency: It's logical and easy to learn.

The benefits of inconsistency: Erm…can you repeat the question?

[- - e r i k - -]

Unless your workflow is all text, the differing content will visually overshadow any kind of window border.

First you notice colour, then shape, then size. Borders hardly register.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Although most people won't have any trouble recognizing the differences between windows (I look at content and don't pay any attention to the window border...besides, everything from Apple is brushed metal with the exception of Mail so there's no way to get confused), I can understand that there might be difficulties recognizing the difference between Finder and iTunes come Leopard.

And because of this, I still think Apple should put an app icon stamp on the Exposé windows.

[mdc]

iTunes
Finder
Mail
Safari
iPhoto

While the borders look alike, the content and 'internals' are always different.
With the exception of the Finder all of my applications look like that currently. I use a UNO-type ShapeShifter theme and I haven't had any trouble with Expose, on my 17" PowerBook, with lots of windows open.
I don't think I have ever looked at the title bar of an application to tell me which application it is, even before 'unoing' my system.
Firstly, content is what I use to identify which window is which. For example, if I'm using iPhoto and I need to get to Safari to go to a link, I know that once I initiate Expose I'm going to be looking for a rectangle with web content in it. You get the idea.

Uno your system and try it out. It's not as bad as it seems

Horsepoo!!!, the idea of an icon stamp in Expose is actually quite smart. When you mouseover the window it currently has the name, an icon above the name could work nicely.
I hope there are some additions to Expose. Drop shadows would be nice.