[Jaey]

Okay, so I'm required to take this crappy social studies class in my highschool. Right now we're studying "civic virtues". We had a quiz today with a question like this:

"A citizen who shows a willingness to join the army after being drafted is displaying:

a) Patriotism
b) Open-mindedness.."
c and d were similar to a and b.

I don't want to start an argument about the draft, but it is my opinion that questions forcing political opinions should not be asked by teachers, especially on tests.

[TubaMuffins]

yea, that seems kind of propagandaish, especially in this time of war. What answer did you put?

[Millennium]

What were C and D? Honest question. The only answer that really matters is whichever one the teacher considered to be correct.

If indeed it was A or B or something like them, then you have a breach of what's called "professional political ethics": namely, that teachers ought make no attempt to recruit students to your cause, and they certainly don't base grades or assignments off of their own political opinions. If this was the teacher's intent, then he (she?) is in serious trouble.

On the other hand, A and B may have simply been there as a trap; something to snag students who hadn't studied their definitions properly. Was the question in fact trying to force a political opinion? Without knowing all four answers we can't be sure. Although this is something of a dirty trick regardless, it's not an ethical breach if the teacher wasn't attempting to force anything, and that all depends on what the "correct" answer was supposed to be.

Talk with your teacher about this, and get an explanation. You may not even have to talk with the teacher; it's entirely possible that he or she has scheduled a talk with the class about it. Either way, if you think it's still a breach after getting such an explanation, you may end up having to go to the administration about it as well.

[Jaey]

Originally posted by TubaMuffins:
yea, that seems kind of propagandaish, especially in this time of war. What answer did you put?

I wrote that I refused to answer the question.

Millenium: I don't remember what c & d were, but I'm pretty sure she meant the correct answer to be patriotism. I'll see when I get the quiz back...

[Zimmerman]

Keep us updated. This is kinda interesting.

[CMYKid]

Originally posted by TubaMuffins:
yea, that seems kind of propagandaish, especially in this time of war. What answer did you put?

yes...and your sig inspires me to be trusting of your impartiality...

politics aside, thats nothing more than a textbook definition.

patriotism
n : love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it

i.e. you may or may not believe in war, draft and conscription, etc. Thats where the sacrifice comes in.

[TubaMuffins]

the def doesn't matter, a question like this does not belong in a classroom, it's innapropriate. It's not like I don't support the war, I just don't support Bush. The post is about the question, not politcs specifically.

[turtle777]

Originally posted by Jaey:
"A citizen who shows a willingness to join the army after being drafted is displaying:

e) lack of options

-t

[CMYKid]

Originally posted by TubaMuffins:
the def doesn't matter, a question like this does not belong in a classroom, it's innapropriate. It's not like I don't support the war, I just don't support Bush. The post is about the question, not politcs specifically.

...anything you dont agree with doesnt belong in the classroom.

ya see, that argument only works when it's something YOU don't like, not when someone from the opposite end of the spectrum is the one offended.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by TubaMuffins:
the def doesn't matter, a question like this does not belong in a classroom, it's innapropriate.

There, I will have to disagree. It's important to know what patriotism is and is not, and that is, in and of itself, patriotism, and that definition is quite politically neutral. The same goes for open-mindedness.

In any case, let's see what happens when the quiz comes back.

[Ganesha]

As an instructor I regularly ask questions where I give them a selection of 'answers' to encourage critical thinking skills. I chose questions where there is no one right answer. You can get full credit for any one the answers, so as long as you some train of logic when defending your answer. Sometimes I even have students who chose to defend different answers debate each other to see how their thinking process is working.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Ganesha:
As an instructor I regularly ask questions where I give them a selection of 'answers' to encourage critical thinking skills. I chose questions where there is no one right answer. You can get full credit for any one the answers, so as long as you some train of logic when defending your answer. Sometimes I even have students who chose to defend different answers debate each other to see how their thinking process is working.

You can do that with essay questions, but this was a multiple-choice test. No room for defense or refutation.

[DeathToWindows]

Scan the test when you get it back...

[Jaey]

Originally posted by DeathToWindows:
Scan the test when you get it back...

If I had a scanner...

[tooki]

The problem with this question is that there is no one answer to "What is patriotism?"

I think the best definition of patriotism is "to stand up for the best interests of your country", while most of America believes patriotism to be "blind following of the leader, plus ample flag-waving".

So if the government of the country in question were, say, an evil dictatorship, then signing up for the army may be (by my definition) an exceptional display of unpatriotism, since it's not in the country's best interest to go with its leader.

(In fact, my personal beliefs right now tell me that going with our current leader is highly contrary to this country's best interests.)

So my point is that the same exact individual act may be highly patriotic or unpatriotic, depending on the circumstances.

tooki

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by tooki:
I think the best definition of patriotism is "to stand up for the best interests of your country", while most of America believes patriotism to be "blind following of the leader, plus ample flag-waving".

Really? Most of American believes that? I'd like to see some facts to back that up. I don't know anyone that thinks blindly following anything = patriotism.

[tooki]

I think the overall American response to 9/11 proved it... what'd people do? They put up a billion flags to wag around, and then attacked anyone who criticized the president or his ideas. On these forums, even, I have been attacked for being "unpatriotic" because I disagree with the prez.

tooki

[CMYKid]

Originally posted by tooki:
I think the best definition of patriotism is "to stand up for the best interests of your country"...

well, that might be how you define it, but thats not necessarily the definition, and certainly not the one the dictionary contains, nor the one the test question was framed around.

sure, there's not necessarily one answer, but defining it as something thats rather subjective is not really gonna make things less complicated.

[ObiWan Flanders]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Really? Most of American believes that? I'd like to see some facts to back that up. I don't know anyone that thinks blindly following anything = patriotism. [/B]

Wow, you should check out Idaho sometime. I don't know if anyone can show facts to back this up, or the opposite for that matter, they can only report personal experience and observations. Anyway I'm strongly inclined to agree with tooki, where I'm living right now, if someone lets out an independent though they are labeled a terrorist loving communist sympathiser

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Jaey:
If I had a scanner...

I'd scan it in the morning...
I'd scan it in the evening...
All over this land...

[historylme]

[TailsToo]

Originally posted by Jaey:
If I had a scanner...

Check the Sunday papers - it seems like they're all like $10 after rebates nowadays.

[Komisar]

Originally posted by Jaey:
If I had a scanner...

How bout a digital camera?

[realitybath]

Originally posted by turtle777:
e) lack of options

-t

turtle shows exactly whats wrong with the question/answer combo(if c and d are actually like a and b).

what if you are against the draft(in a specific situation) and believe that it is being instituted under what could be essentially uncivic-minded principles.

edit: as to teachers asking questions that 'force' political answers.. i'd agree if you mean forcing specific political answers, but having students give political answers (their real stance, or one they are hypothesizing) is part of what education is about.

[Zimphire]

He probably did it so he could easily spot the drama-queens in the class.

[Jaey]

Originally posted by Komisar:
How bout a digital camera?

Not one that will give high enough quality pictures... I could borrow a friend's though, if you're really that interested.

Originally posted by realitybath:
edit: as to teachers asking questions that 'force' political answers.. i'd agree if you mean forcing specific political answers, but having students give political answers (their real stance, or one they are hypothesizing) is part of what education is about.

Oh, I agree completely. It's just that if patriotism is really the "correct" answer, I would feel like I'm being forced to hold certain political views.



Oh, I might add that I know for a fact that this teacher is extremely conservative. Her husband has a picture of Bush on his desk...

[ambush]

Originally posted by Jaey:
Oh, I might add that I know for a fact that this teacher is extremely conservative. Her husband has a picture of Bush on his desk...

Why are the evil conservative trying to influence HS kids....

[Rev-O]

Originally posted by Jaey:
I wrote that I refused to answer the question.
<snip>

Unless you plan on going into politics, I'm afraid you'll not not get much mileage out of that response in the corporate world.

"Jaey, did you get that report done?"
"So, Jaey, did you land the Nelson account?"
"We need that precis pronto Jaey, you about done with it?"

"I refuse to answer the question."


Actually, I'm not trying to be a dick here. Just amused, and amused at how often I'd like to use that line myself!

[turtle777]

Originally posted by ambush:
Why are the evil conservative trying to influence HS kids....

Are you seriously wondering ?

-t

[Turnpike]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
He probably did it so he could easily spot the drama-queens in the class.

because anyone who has a different political opinion and doesn't want to be graded on their opinions is, obviously, a drama queen.



I'm sure if the question had been something like "A citizen who shows support for a national health care system is showing:

A) Compassion
B) Intelligence
C) Patriotism
... et cetera"

you would have felt that it was horribly biased and obviously shouldn't have been asked in a public institution that shouldn't be trying to give kids their political values... I mean, it is fairly obvious that you didn't look at this from any viewpoint besides your own. Maybe you personally aren't offended when people try to get you to agree with them politically, or get your kids to agree with them politically, without showing a full spectrum of options, but some people are offended. The question is unnecessary. I don't see why unnecessary questions should be asked, if they are potentially divisive.

[Rev-O]

Originally posted by ambush:
Why are the evil conservative trying to influence HS kids....

This may not be entirely germane to the discussion at hand, but Satan's political affiliation may have something to do with it...

[t6hawk]

I would like to know the answer from the test as well. Question sounds a little one sided with just the two of four answers provided.

And for CMYKid, Tooki was correct in his definition.

The definition of patriotism that is in the Webster's dictionary and dates back to 1913 is:
Patriotism, n. Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country. --Berkley.


And the definition worth mentioning:
� Virtuous citizens display a devotion to their country in words and deeds, including devotion to the fundamental values and principles upon which it depends


And by far the most in depth with discussions including ethics and section on Patriotism and recent U.S. history:
http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/patriotism

[CMYKid]

Originally posted by Jaey:
Oh, I agree completely. It's just that if patriotism is really the "correct" answer, I would feel like I'm being forced to hold certain political views.

I guess there's a slight bit of poetry in that the tables are a bit turned. There are plenty of university settings in which students are required to parrot back ultra-liberal views held by their teachers in order to pass the class, yet people only kick about it when the shoe's on the other foot.

[Eriamjh]

E.) A desire not to go to jail.

[Logic]

IMO it seems like many Americans today are confusing Patriotism with Nationalism.

pa�tri�ot�ism
Pronunciation: 'pA-trE-&-"ti-z&m, chiefly British 'pa-
Function: noun
: love for or devotion to one's country

na�tion�al�ism
Pronunciation: 'nash-n&-"li-z&m, 'na-sh&-n&l-"i-z&m
Function: noun
: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups


But that's just my humble opinion.

[dcolton]

What if one of the answers was responsibility?

A citizen who shows a willingness to join the army after being drafted is displaying:

I don't think patriotism could be the right answer, considering it asks about after being drafted. Throw patriotism out the door at that point...you are going to war...it is your responsibility as a viable American citizen.

[djohnson]

No matter what the correct answer was, I am guessing you got it wrong! You cant answer, "I refuse to answer the question" on a test and expect to get it right!!!

[phantomdragonz]

Originally posted by djohnson:
No matter what the correct answer was, I am guessing you got it wrong! You cant answer, "I refuse to answer the question" on a test and expect to get it right!!!

actually a lot of my teachers, especially history and the like would give you points back if you argued your answer with the class, or sometimes even just with the teacher.. this might also show the teacher that the question was stupid and not count it on any tests for the whole class....

i have had teachers do all of those things on more then one occasion...

Zach

[ObiWan Flanders]

Originally posted by Logic:
IMO it seems like many Americans today are confusing Patriotism with Nationalism.

Quoted for emphasis

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by ambush:
Why are the evil conservative trying to influence HS kids....

LAWL you have to be kidding. It's usually the evil liberals that try to influence not only HS kids, but College kids as well.


I don't know HOW many College kids I have ran into that have had their beliefs molded by a professor.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Turnpike:
because anyone who has a different political opinion and doesn't want to be graded on their opinions is, obviously, a drama queen.

No anyone that makes such a big deal out of it is. And I'd like to see solid proof that he was being graded on his political leaning.

[dcolton]

We need to know what the other options are.

[york28]

Originally posted by Logic:
IMO it seems like many Americans today are confusing Patriotism with Nationalism.

Re-quoted for emphasis.

(On a side note, any time that someone says "evil liberals" or "evil conservatives" they immediately disqualify themselves from intellectual discourse.)

[malvolio]

A citizen who shows a willingness to join the army after being drafted is displaying:

How about e) Pragmatism. Since unwillingness to join the army after being drafted is likely to land him in jail.

[djohnson]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
LAWL you have to be kidding. It's usually the evil liberals that try to influence not only HS kids, but College kids as well.


I don't know HOW many College kids I have ran into that have had their beliefs molded by a professor.

True here. When I was getting my undergrad degree, there were not many professors who were not liberals. I even see them putting stupid bumper stickers on their ancient Japanese cars. Very funny.

Oh and I know of a professor that would not let you into Medical School unless you agreed with him on the theory of evolution...

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by djohnson:
Oh and I know of a professor that would not let you into Medical School unless you agreed with him on the theory of evolution...

Most professors I have run into are very self important.

[Jaey]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
And I'd like to see solid proof that he was being graded on his political leaning.

We'll see when I get it back (probably tomorrow)

Maybe you're right.

[Logic]

Originally posted by djohnson:
Oh and I know of a professor that would not let you into Medical School unless you agreed with him on the theory of evolution...

If it is the agreed upon theory of evolution then of course he shouldn't let students in. Medical School is about science, not beliefs. If you don't believe in the theory of evolution you have no business in Medical school. It should be obvious.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Logic:
If it is the agreed upon theory of evolution then of course he shouldn't let students in. Medical School is about science, not beliefs. If you don't believe in the theory of evolution you have no business in Medical school. It should be obvious.

You got to be kidding. Right?

I mean I believe there is a theory called evolution.

[djohnson]

Originally posted by Logic:
If it is the agreed upon theory of evolution then of course he shouldn't let students in. Medical School is about science, not beliefs. If you don't believe in the theory of evolution you have no business in Medical school. It should be obvious.

Theory does not equal fact. I have never heard of a theorum of evolution, just theory of evolution. Requiring someone to believe in something that has not been proven true is wrong.