[cpac]

THIS, would blow my mind:
----------------------------------------------------

Stevenote 2010:

"Today we're going to reveal to you how Mac OS X 11.0 will get you back to the simple basics that made a computer a useful tool.

---clip showing people complaining about how needing lots of applications and learning lots of interfaces is just becoming too much to deal with; confusing the hell out of them---

"We've been thinking about this long and hard and we think we have the solution for you:"

---clicks to wake up screen, showing pristing space with four icons: magnifying glass, tv screen, pen, and printer.

"In 11.0 there will be only 4 applications....

------------------

[i'm done writing dialog, Anyway:

As basic computer tools, you'd have:

-A "finder"
-A "Viewer"
-An "Editor"
-An "Outputter"

The "finder" uses some optimal combination of metadata searching to help you locate whatever content it is you look for.

The "viewer" allows one to see/here/watch the content of the data in a non-creative and non-destructive way.

The "editor" allows one to edit data (of whatever variety).

The "outputter" allows one to print, or burn a disk, or email, or post to the web.

----------------

Now, I know it basically sounds a lot like Open Doc which just failed completely, and that making this sort of thing is impossible given the way the industry is organized, etc.

BUT WE'RE CLOSER TO THIS THAN YOU'D THINK.

We've already got Core Image, Core Video, and Core Audio. WebCore. Arguably we've got the equivalent of Core Text. We're also starting to see the power of these as Apple and others leverage their power in new applications.

As these "core" components become more and more powerful, Applications will become more and more like thin plug-ins for different data types, and then eventually simple data manipulation tools...

Anyway, that'd be the sort of fundamental change that really would blow my mind.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by wataru

Search is worthless if you don't already know what you're looking for. There will always be a need for visual browsing of file hierarchies.

Smart folders can easily show all files that were created today or in the past week. The finder should show you this information without you having to tell it to.

[T-Maaz]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

... If you're looking for Rock music, it'll find all your Rock music. If you're looking for Beatles music, it'll find all your Beatles music...

The key word here for most of us that are shunning Spotlight to replace Finder is all.

This, in and of itself, is the biggest reason why Spotlight will remain Spotlight, and the Finder will remain the de facto navigation tool.

When I need to open something, and I know what or where it is, I don't want to search for it (and in the process, find everything that's even remotely related to it) -- I simply go to the Finder, click a couple of times, and it's open in a matter of seconds.

When I don't know where something is, or I want to find everything that could possibly be related to it, then I hit Spotlight.

My biggest issue with Spotlight is the results of a search; you ask for something, and it gives you way too much feedback as a result.

In the Finder, within 1-6 clicks, I can get to pretty much anything I could possibly need, and in a matter of seconds. With spotlight, I have to type in the request, wait for it to find it... and then I have to dig through 4,000 items to find the one item that I needed.

Either that, or I need to spend the next 6 months adding metadata to my ginormous file collection.

So I guess there are two ways to approach it:

1) Spend a lot of time writing detailed metadata tags
2) Spend a lot of time organizing the files

Either way, the system will require that the user is either good at writing lots of similar metadata, or fairly decent at folder organization... and at that point, it simply comes down to a matter of preference of the individual: typing or moving.

Just my two cents on the whole thing... I may be wrong.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

Smart folders can easily show all files that were created today or in the past week. The finder should show you this information without you having to tell it to.

It will still require visual navigation in some way. For example, if I have a folder in the Dock to music videos, all someone needs to see is to mouse over it and see "music videos" appear above it (or recognize a well chosen icon). With all this talk of smart folders and whatnot, the likelyhood is that people will still have to organize and deal with the Finder in a visual fashion. So, suppose I had a folder showing files created in the past week and someone wanted to find a music video, it would still require visual navigation to get to that folder. If they used the search method and type in ".mov" a list may show up containing a bunch of .movs, but not necessarily the one(s) they were looking for. They navigate to one of them and low and behold, it's not what they were expecting since it's just clips used by a video game for cut scenes. They then have to refine their search instead of just having a folder

As someone already stated, you first have to know what you're looking for if all you are doing is a search. Smart folders do not necessarily eliminate the problem of having two (or more) files with the same name.

A much better example would be in education. We have it setup at work and at the schools so that there are four different folders for children to navigate to. They're both in the Dock and the sidebar of the Finder windows. For example, it's easy to teach grade 4 students to click on the "C Folder" and the applications that they will be using will be located in there, instead of getting twenty-five 9 year olds to manually type in "Reading Rabbit" or something. And even if it's the case that there's a smart folder setup, it is going to need some form of setup similar to what one would be doing with a well-organized folder in the Finder.

*edit* The best option, as others have advocated, and also to my view, is that coexistence between a fast and reliable search with options such as Spotlight and Automator alongside a good Finder. I guess I've never understood the hassles of file organizatoin as I was quite happy to ditch the Finder of the classic systems for the options available for file navigation in OS X.

[johnhood]

I'd like a 3D interface which pre-empts favourite applications and media files. Or, a Finder the... works!

[ValkRaider]

Originally Posted by Maflynn

Perhaps I'm in the minority but 10.5 is so far off in the future, I'm not even thinking about it. being so much time between now and the release any GUI design is bound to be changed before we see the final product.

No kidding!

Why are we talking about 10.5? Where is the dang 10.4.3 that was supposed to be out mid September?


Maybe *it* will have the "new finder" that actually works as advertised? (try making a burn folder or a folder with a 500 aliases... Nope - can't do it. See Apple discussions....)

[Scandalous Ion Cannon]

Originally Posted by ValkRaider

No kidding!

Why are we talking about 10.5?

Because 10.4.3 won't have any major interface changes to counter Vista for one.

[ValkRaider]

Originally Posted by wataru

Search is worthless if you don't already know what you're looking for. There will always be a need for visual browsing of file hierarchies.

Thank you.

Try Googleing for something like

"That one movie I saw with my friends that I really liked and had that bomb on the bus with the and I think starred Keanu Reeves but I can't remember anything else about - wallpaper, trailers, and trivia"

Or, go to IMDB and browse
"Keanu Reeves" and see all the movie titles he was in and "Speed" rings a bell, and you can click on it and say "THATS IT!", then from there you can go get wallpapers and trailers and trivia.

But if you can't make the initial connection - search tools and metadata don't help much.

Does this mean Google sucks and does not have it's place? No. But Google does not know what is in your head, and never will. Google cannot "connect the dots" in your brain so to speak. To use Google you already have to have the majority of the dots. Additionally, a search tool like Google can help you *find* the starting point (say search for "movie trivia" or something)

Otherwise you need to browse something, where you have a general starting point and you can narrow it down from there based on recollection or establishing previously unmade connections.

[Scandalous Ion Cannon]

Originally Posted by ValkRaider

Otherwise you need to browse something, where you have a general starting point and you can narrow it down from there based on recollection or establishing previously unmade connections.

Fine, but right now the Mac lets you save crap anywhere. A cluttered desktop makes inserted media impossible to find.

The Finder should also have a recent documents area.

[cpac]

Originally Posted by ValkRaider

Try Googleing for something like

"That one movie I saw with my friends that I really liked and had that bomb on the bus with the and I think starred Keanu Reeves but I can't remember anything else about - wallpaper, trailers, and trivia"

Acutally, if you google for "bomb bus movie" the first hit you get is Speed - you don't even have to remember keanu reeves or how to spell it.

The web is proof that we can get along with a primarily search based file system. Sure bookmarks are nice and helpful - and they could have their eqivalent in a search based file system too: it's just that we'd switch the emphasis from navigation/organization to searching.

[cpac]

Originally Posted by Scandalous Ion Cannon

The Finder should also have a recent documents area.

How 'bout putting it somewhere universal? Like, say, the Apple menu? That might work...

[Scandalous Ion Cannon]

Originally Posted by cpac

How 'bout putting it somewhere universal? Like, say, the Apple menu? That might work...

No because the Apple menu is TINY and unless you click on it and dig though it you wouldn't know it was there. Also the Apple menu offers nothing but the file name. Many new users think it is just a logo.

It should be that clicking on the finder icon in the dock hides all document windows and has a finder window open with takes that you commonly do.

The OS should also watch and learn your patterns.

[cpac]

Originally Posted by Scandalous Ion Cannon

No because the Apple menu is TINY and unless you click on it and dig though it you wouldn't know it was there. Also the Apple menu offers nothing but the file name. Many new users think it is just a logo.

It should be that clicking on the finder icon in the dock hides all document windows and has a finder window open with takes that you commonly do.

The OS should also watch and learn your patterns.

You're kidding right?

(1) the corner of the screen is just about the BIGGEST thing you can click on, since it's impossible to overshoot it in 2 directions (i.e. it's infinitely large in 2 directions).

(2) Assuming you mean "tasks", how is a Finder window supposed to enclose "tasks"? One could hold recent files, but then, you can just create a smart folder in the doc to hold recent files....

(3) The OS will always be LOUSY at watching and learning your patterns. The biggest problem is that it means the OS will be constantly changing its behavior. (So just when you got used to something, it changes how it works...). Microsoft has tried to do this with "Smart menus" and similar - they end up just being super annoying.

[Scandalous Ion Cannon]

Originally Posted by cpac

You're kidding right?

(1) the corner of the screen is just about the BIGGEST thing you can click on, since it's impossible to overshoot it in 2 directions (i.e. it's infinitely large in 2 directions).

Riiiiight. And that tiny blue dot just screams recent items.

[cpac]

Originally Posted by Scandalous Ion Cannon

Riiiiight. And that tiny blue dot just screams recent items.

I didn't say it did scream recent items, but the point is it's there. Moreover, you can put a recent items folder in the dock too. Or on the desktop itself.

The point is you can create a "recent documents area" anywhere in the Finder you want.

PS - there's also the "recent" item in the "File" menu of most every application - makes it pretty damn easy.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Wow...so much FUD in this thread I don't know where to start.

Let's start with el Chewbacca over here:

what if you forget the meta data names you gave the files so you cant type it in to search for it. I don't know the names of all my folders, I just recognize them when browsing then think "oh yea I think what I need is in here".

That's the beauty of metadata browsing. Maybe today is a good time for you to try iTunes out.

On to wataru:

Search is worthless if you don't already know what you're looking for. There will always be a need for visual browsing of file hierarchies.

If you don't know what you're looking for, then you're not looking for anything specific. So you're not really looking for anything. Right?

Besides, you can always browse with metadata...again, today is a good time for you to try out iTunes. It's really good...really.

On to T-Maaz with his Comedy Gold™:

The key word here for most of us that are shunning Spotlight to replace Finder is all.

This, in and of itself, is the biggest reason why Spotlight will remain Spotlight, and the Finder will remain the de facto navigation tool.

When I need to open something, and I know what or where it is, I don't want to search for it (and in the process, find everything that's even remotely related to it) -- I simply go to the Finder, click a couple of times, and it's open in a matter of seconds.

No...the keyword isn't 'all'...the keyword is whatever you want it to be...'all' being the current default until you narrow your query. You can do a very broad search, or a very narrow search.

Apple only needs to change the Finder around to allow users to navigate metadata keywords to narrow the search right away.

Again, try iTunes.

I take it back now...T-Maaz comes second to ValkRaider:

Thank you.

Try Googleing for something like

"That one movie I saw with my friends that I really liked and had that bomb on the bus with the and I think starred Keanu Reeves but I can't remember anything else about - wallpaper, trailers, and trivia"

Or, go to IMDB and browse
"Keanu Reeves" and see all the movie titles he was in and "Speed" rings a bell, and you can click on it and say "THATS IT!", then from there you can go get wallpapers and trailers and trivia.

Did you forget that Keanu Reeves is a piece of metadata? And searching for Keanu Reeves in IMDB (the DB stands for database BTW...so you're definitely querying as opposed to navigating a hierarchy) and out pops all the movies Keanu has been in.

What does this mean? Hierarchical browsing of metadata is possible. Use iTunes.

I'm disappointed in some of you. Some of you can't seem to grasp the concept behind Spotlight. Some of you even narrow Spotlight down to 'the tool in the top-right corner that does global searches like Google'. That's not really what Spotlight's about (it's a part of Spotlight's functionality).

Spotlight is a database of metadata. The top-right corner tool does a global Google-like search which annoys a lot of people. The Finder's Spotlight lets you do a global search which can rapidly be narrowed down to 'Servers', the 'Computer', your 'Home' folder, the 'Folder' you're in, and 'Others...'...it then allows you to add criteria to your search to narrow it down further. Spotlight lets you create Smart Folders.

The only Apple needs to do now is flip the Spotlight implementation in the Finder around...let the user browse by metadata (file-type, project, etc.) like iTunes and then narrow the search with a typed word.

[:dragonflypro:]

As long as there is an internet as it is today there will be hierarchal data structures.

As a developer my life is organized directories & paths.

I love Spotlight, but it is not a 100% solution. (but is has saved the bacon more than once)

Anyway, arguing it is immaterial, the Finder and Spotlight will become synonymous, regardless of what the UI warrior caste chooses to split hairs over.

And as for Leopard, you can bet the Finder will get a serious overhaul. Tiger introduced the Spotlight concept. I expect 10.5 to redefine the OS UI as a whole.

Aperture is a nifty little technology demo, but specifically targeted at an industry. 10.5 will gain a lot of the metaphors, etc (stacks, meta entry info, draggable meta keyword data and so on).

Mark it. It will come to pass.

Z

[MPMoriarty]

Ok, here's my two cents...

Typing strings into a search box and the search box displaying results based on this search string isn't going to replace the Finder or its hierarchal file system anytime soon. Maybe never.

But Spotlight and what it is capable of its going to replace a lot of ways we are used to browsing our file system. Everybody relates Spotlight as being just a search box. But it is capable of so much more. If you want an example of what Spotlight can do with files just look at iPhoto or iTunes. Yes, I know they don't use Spotlight, but they do use a database backend like Spotlight to work with files manually organized on your file system.

So here's what I think fully merging Spotlight and the Finder will do...

- Being able to browse your file system similar to the meta-browse feature in iTunes. You use a column view interface that allows you to browse the files on your system by Author, keywords, kind, date, etc. The whole metadata browser updates according to the new data Spotlight indexes.

- Being able to go into a folder and being able to hide/show items with certain attributes. Think of the new search bar in iTunes except you don't have to search to make it visible. For example, I go into a folder that I manually save all my articles I download from Internet (note that I am still manually organizing my file system here). The Finder will allow me by clicking a few buttons to only show the PDF's, text files, or HTML files I have saved in this folder.

- Spotlight could help you browse files you have saved in folders by allowing you to group related files together in a sorta on-the-fly smart folder. Let's say you have a folder with a lot of PDFs in it. The Finder could allow you to group all of the files in this folder by author, date, keywords, etc. by clicking a button.

All of these things are non-destructive to the way we currently manage our files on our computers. It just provides a NEW view on how we see the files on our computer.

All of these things are capable now with Spotlight. Nobody has taken the time to implement it using Spotlight.

This is the future of Spotlight. Not search boxes, but guided browsing based on the metadata of the files on your computer. Microsoft is doing something very similar with Vista and it's not using WinFS to create it's virtual folders or stacks. Apple could do this and do it in a much cleaner more user friendly way.

[oni]

I dont know if any one has mentioned this but a good way to see how a meta-data finder would work should look at gmail. There is no folders just "labels", and mail can easily be found and searched.

This seems perfectly fine, and will also introduce many others into this method of storing files

[monkeybrain]

Originally Posted by Scandalous Ion Cannon

Also the Apple menu offers nothing but the file name. Many new users think it is just a logo.

If these new users think the Apple menu is just an icon how the hell are they turning their Macs off? Just pulling the plug?

[Pao|o]

The ability to run Windows apps natively on OS X aka "Red Box". If you thought Marklar was a rumor...

[dcmacdaddy]

What I would like to see is a global meta-data addition function.

Every save window should have a "key words" box where I can type in 5 or 6 terms I associate with that file.

**If it's a word document it might be the name of the author I am studying for class, or the topic of the paper, or the name of the professor.
**If I am in iPhoto I could add the names of the subjects, or generic identification terms (family, vacation, sunsets).
**When bookmarking a site in Safari I should be given the option to add keywords to the bookmark (reason for search, comments on the results, name of person who sent me link, etc.).

And the search function, as in Spotlight, ought to give me a way to create lists of keywords or categories of keywords OR edit already existing keywords. So, I could either create keywords pre-emptively and apply them as I am working or the metadata system will add new keywords I use to the existing inventory of keyword terms.

Right now, the only way I have of finding all the pictures of my family is by organizing them in the file structure with a thematic-based naming system (i.e.: "~\Pictures\family\sister\niece\birthday"). I want to put the photos I took of my family on vacation in my vacation folder but be able to apply the metadata tag "family" to them when they are imported. So, I can search for "family" and "photos" and Spotlight returns everything with the keyword family assigned to it and the file extension .jpg.

What I want is variability in how I organize my files but structure in how I find them--Someone else might want the exact opposite of this--and the current combination of finder navigation and Spotlight searching doesn't provide this capability.

What I want is a VERY robust user-defineable/user-editable metadata system that is accessible both from within the navigational system (Finder) and the search system (Spotlight).

[Scandalous Ion Cannon]

Originally Posted by monkeybrain

If these new users think the Apple menu is just an icon how the hell are they turning their Macs off? Just pulling the plug?

The button

[sworthy]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

What I would like to see is a global meta-data addition function.

Every save window should have a "key words" box where I can type in 5 or 6 terms I associate with that file.

**If it's a word document it might be the name of the author I am studying for class, or the topic of the paper, or the name of the professor.
**If I am in iPhoto I could add the names of the subjects, or generic identification terms (family, vacation, sunsets).
**When bookmarking a site in Safari I should be given the option to add keywords to the bookmark (reason for search, comments on the results, name of person who sent me link, etc.).

Exactly what I'm waiting for.

[ajbaker]

I dont necessarily agree or disagree with any of the above. I do have confidence in Apple to bring us something intuitive, even though it will not meet everyones requirements.

However, my thoughts...

Metadata is the most important aspect of file navigation, searching etc. (Remember directory location is metadata.) People are lazy. We will not add our own metadata manually; that takes time and does not provide instant gratification. Therefore we will not do it.

As a result, in order to have a useful interface to replace the Finder, everything we store will HAVE to have useful and comprehensive metadata automatically stored about it. This is harder to achieve for some files than it is others.

Think about it. Music is easy: we have two sources - online or copied CDs - both have useful metdata stored when we acquire them. This makes the iTunes interface worthwhile. Photos are a little harder - we have EXIF data which is all but useless to the casual user. The only useful metadata is date and the image or preview itself (no filenames, and only labels if we have the forethought to add them when importing.) This makes the iPhoto interface are lot harder to make useful.

So what does this mean? Apple are probably working on ways of gathering or applying useful metadata to files (they started this with Spotlight). This is the most important thing. Once this is in place, more than one interface can be created, both by Apple and third party developers - each one filling a need for different people.

The interface is less important than the usefulness of automatic metadata and the ease of which we can add our own.

[ajbaker]

On a related note, but a different post because I dont necessarily think this will be a really useful concept...

How about a GUI version of 'touch'? Manually applying metadata is a laborious task. So how about having an alphabetical list of keywords in a 'dock' or tray to one side of the screen. As you hover over a particular letter (A for example) its size increases revealing the most common keywords on your computer beginning with that letter. (B would be below, slightly smaller, with fewer common keywords. C even smaller etc.) All you have to do is drag a file (by icon, remember the small icon that appears in the top window bar) over a keyword for it be automatically applied. No dropping. Just dragging.

Drag over again to remove that keyword.

Thoughts?

[monkeybrain]

Originally Posted by Scandalous Ion Cannon

The button

That sleeps a Mac.

[khufuu]

Originally Posted by ajbaker

On a related note, but a different post because I dont necessarily think this will be a really useful concept...

How about a GUI version of 'touch'? Manually applying metadata is a laborious task. So how about having an alphabetical list of keywords in a 'dock' or tray to one side of the screen. As you hover over a particular letter (A for example) its size increases revealing the most common keywords on your computer beginning with that letter. (B would be below, slightly smaller, with fewer common keywords. C even smaller etc.) All you have to do is drag a file (by icon, remember the small icon that appears in the top window bar) over a keyword for it be automatically applied. No dropping. Just dragging.

Drag over again to remove that keyword.

Thoughts?

Personally, I would find entering all my keywords WAY too laborious with this method. As horsepoo keeps talking about, what if you could do an iTunes thing when you fill out your information.

When I go in to update the 'Artist' field in iTunes, and I start entering the word 'John', the system is scanning my previously entered artists that start with John. As soon as I hit my next letter (lets say a L), I might get John Lennon instead of John Berry or John Mellencamp.

The only other way I can think of to make it easier would be to speak the words into the meta-data capture screen. But that's another ball o' wax completely.

[khufuu]

Originally Posted by monkeybrain

That sleeps a Mac.

Actually, on my 10.3.9 system, I get the choice to restart, sleep, or shutdown.

[Fonzie]

Just to break away from the talk of search. Because I couldn't care less about Spotlight. I think that we'll see more of a redesign of the standard OS X icons and themes. I remember that they hired Mike Matas to do design interface thingies. Let's just hope that the icons get an overhaul.

[jmgriff]

Personally I've been "tagging" many of my files with spotlight comments so that I can keep trak of projects via smart folders. Being able to search for custom tags improves spotlights reliability significantly for me ... with hundreds(+) pdfs on my computer a fairly long list of keywords in spotlight will result in the paper I want appearing in the top hits only 50% of the time. That is why I'm skeptical that spotlight could completely replace hierarchical folders. Since I know where most of my stuff is on the computer I often find Quicksilver *much* faster then spotlight if I know what I want ... maybe that should be the model for the next Finder

[Telusman]

[QUOTE=Severed Hand of Skywalker]The desktop metaphor is way way way to dated. Think of all the computers you see with cluttered as hell desktops, downloading a new file or inserting a CD makes you shuffle though all that mess to find what you are looking for. God help you if you don't know the file name of the CD or what you just downloaded.


This is what should never happen if you have good file organization. People shouldn't be downloading something if they don't know what it is, and if they don't know the name of what they just downloaded, do you think they know what it is? Probably not, at least in my thinking. I really liked the OS 9 finder, but i love column view a great deal, i guess i want my cake and to eat it too. I have a pretty well organized filesystem that i love to keep going, i do not have a mess on my disk and my desktop is empty because i categorize things very well. Spotlight works in a pinch for finding an mp3 in your 5000 collection but most times i'd browse to it just as fast. I think i'd be crushed if Spotlight took over what i'd prefer to do myself. I don't think there is a 100% seemless way to have spotlight replace the finder unless apple were to build the two applications together... but doing so in an efficent manner would be a difficult task.

As for interface style, iTunes 6 style for *all* brushed metal apps.... pro apps are close enough to iTunes 6 in a way... I honestly hope Apple doesn't wait till Leopard if they are going to introduce the it6 interface, show me the iApps with it now... replace the finder resources in a 10.4.x upgrade.... i've even been tempted to buy shapeshifter so i can use the them I hate brushed metal.

[Mediaman_12]

As long as they don't force you to use a 'search only' file system which relays of 'Smart' folders. I wont really care. As a Web developer being able to see, access and use the REAL directory structure is invaluable to me as the web servers I upload the sites to relay on the same structure. I also don't want a whole load of extra data being arbitrarily added to files. I can also see a problem by the OS creating an enormous database indicating the locations and meta info for all your files, sounds to much like the (?application Database thing?) on Windows, one bit of corruption and BANG! no more finding ANY of your files on the (flat) HD structure.

[Scandalous Ion Cannon]

Apple should definitely take some interface elements from the Newton OS which is the best OS i have ever used.

[Randman]

Apple should do a better job of offering tutorials of some of the different features in Tiger. The deeper one delves into Smart Folders, Kind:Searches and other things, the more amazing of an OS, it becomes.

[MPMoriarty]

Originally Posted by Scandalous Ion Cannon

Apple should definitely take some interface elements from the Newton OS which is the best OS i have ever used.

Why do you say this?

I never used a Newton so I don't know what the interface was like.

[DoctorGonzo]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

IThis came to me after watching the demo's of Apples new Aperture app. It makes great use of core image and expose. The magnifier is also incredible. The whole finder should be based on Expose and Core image.

It would be nice if Apple would get on the ball with making sure every new Mac could fully-support Core Image.

I was pretty disappointed when the brand-new iBook I bought in July of '02 was unsupported by Core Image in the version of OS X that was released 3 months later. I couldn't imagine buying a Mac Mini 3 years later and finding out that it wasn't powerful enough to handle Core Image either.

One of Apple's strengths has always been ensuring hardware/software compatibility, which makes their handling of Core Image rather embarrassing. No one should buy a Mac only to find out that one of the basic features of the OS update released a matter of weeks later is too much for their machine. And no one should buy a new Mac only to find out that an OS feature introduced 3 years earlier is too much for their hardware to handle.

[Scandalous Ion Cannon]

Originally Posted by MPMoriarty

Why do you say this?

I never used a Newton so I don't know what the interface was like.

The Dock was much like OSX's now. It was also impossible to crash, and as easy to use and intuitive as the ipod. Its file management also forced people to be tidy, another cool thing was that you never had to save documents (just like Aperture)

[Randman]

I still think stability should trump interface. As great as Tiger is, there are problems. Safari's memory leak, for instance.

Consistency between apps (iTunes, Aperture are quite different than others, for example. And to reduce memory lags (reduce the SPoD as much as possible).

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by wataru

Search is worthless if you don't already know what you're looking for. There will always be a need for visual browsing of file hierarchies.

I agree completely with wataru. He has hit the nail on the head. The current form of the Finder will be there for a long time to come. As much as I admire Steve Jobs I can tell when he's talking out of his ass and he is when he says Spotlight will replace the Finder. It will complement it for sure but nothing more. It *is* a search engine. Even by adding features it still will be a search engine and as such you *have* to know what you are searching for to find it. You have to be able to describe it with names or letter. The GUI Finder is for finding Files you can visualize the path to, recognize when you see them (i.e. with icons or previews) or logical resoning. I'd say those three things are there to stay.

cheers

W-Y

[Scandalous Ion Cannon]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

The GUI Finder is for finding Files you can visualize the path to, recognize when you see them (i.e. with icons or previews) or logical resoning. I'd say those three things are there to stay.

cheers

W-Y

Yes, they will be. But even the way it is implemented now it very flawed. I don't want spotlight to replace the finder either but the finder in it's current form is totally messed and hard to use.

[Kristoff]

Originally Posted by Randman

I think iTunes will replace every app, including the Finder.

Hahahahha!



Again:



Hahahah!

[technohedz]

OT, I really would be happy if Apple updated the UI significantly. As far as I'm concerned, the appearance has not changed significantly since the public beta. Really...a lot of people will say 'yes, we got unified toolbar', 'what about metal', blah blah words words; these are probably the same people that think a 'slight increase in transparency of pinstripes' or 'flatter and marginally less transparent buttons' represent a mindblowing update to the user interface.

I could throw out a long wish list, but I actually want Apple to be so innovative that I'm surprised. This thread seems like a bunch of different debates and a few serious comments on the interface.

Why not dispense with some junk now. The OS 9 finder had customization in the Apple menu, this is mostly the dock now. You got your labels but I guess it's just going to take that little extra 'pop-up windows' to make you completely happy. Sure...it looks a bit different, but basically the OS X finder can work in exactly the same way the OS 9 one did with the exception of Application switching and the previously mentioned apple menu. The Dock isn't even a great improvement because the data is better handled through the property lists.

Want to open that URL you dragged into the dock in a different browser? Can you just drag anything there onto an Application in the dock? I'd hope to see things like that fixed in 10.4.3 and changes made to Applications parsing property lists actually effecting changes to the file structure and metadata.

9 whatever. Spotlight v Finder, Searching v Navigation??? Those both work. They are different. Count the clicks to get to what you want. The speed is still missing, but it's getting there. Underneath all that transparent eye candy is a highly capable filesystem so how about we get at it with speed in any method.

Where's my 3D file manipulation and VR? Where are docks where files or icons for anything but applications can do something other than be clicked or removed? Not really listing here btw..just a momentary slip.

I think yes, the interface will blow many peoples minds because people who spent years working in 6.5.0.4 or 'System 7' or 9 or whatever still think that the general way things are done is so different in OS X. I'm also hoping that it is a major improvement and even revolutionary.

Oh yeah...as to the competing with Vista comment. Vista will be great...5 months after release....and when the price of a decent machine to run it in quality drops...otherwise it looks like 'cheap current hardware' at release v top of the line hardware will essentially be the difference between quartz jaguar and quartz + buzzwords in tiger. Basically, it's cool that it comes with a new pc and all that, but I'm not actually paying money for a box of it. That shared graphics memory in almost all cheap pc laptops is gonna be a dealbreaker for a lot of people right there. Does Apple have anything to worry about from Vista? Considering it's not even a rewrite and M$ can't do that because of legacy support I'd say that the Public Beta was 5 years ahead of what M$ is coming out with. Just keep adding body kits and more audio components to the yugo...paint it here and there...vista a worry? What-X-Ever.

[abrody]

After seeing the demo of Frontrow I think that the Finder could be replaced by it. I've seen one similar file system already on 3DOSX:

http://www.acm.uiuc.edu/macwarriors/projects/3dosx/

Granted some commands may not be obvious, but 3DOX does show a way the future could be built.

[Eug Wanker]

10.5 Leopard's biggest visible change - Overhauled Finder <-- I hope this doesn't mean another round inexplicable Finder bugs and crashes.

10.5 Leopard's biggest invisible change - Full 64-bit support

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

This came to me after watching the demo's of Apples new Aperture app. It makes great use of core image and expose. The magnifier is also incredible. The whole finder should be based on Expose and Core image.

I doubt they'll leave the hordes of Mac mini switchers (and recent iBook/eMac/iMac buyers) out in the cold like that.

[Salty]

The big feature for 10.5 should be Sync. Or at least that should be one of the big features. The ability to walk anywhere and have a list of Macs that when you're near a file will sync to. Say you're at work and you want to have one folder with the work you'd like your boss to have. As soon as you put that in a folder, the next time you're within air port range of your boss's comp it'll be there.
Though I think this should be big partly because I'm planning on soon having a laptop and desktop.
Regardless, should Apple continue to develop spotlight? Of course. Should they replace the Finder with it? Of course not.

That said they SHOULD overhaul the interface. Something more like Aperture. I'd actually love for the mini windows and pallets to begin to be replaced by the type in Motion and iPhoto's adjust pallet.

[hanxu]

Originally Posted by abrody

After seeing the demo of Frontrow I think that the Finder could be replaced by it. I've seen one similar file system already on 3DOSX:

http://www.acm.uiuc.edu/macwarriors/projects/3dosx/

Granted some commands may not be obvious, but 3DOX does show a way the future could be built.

Actually, I had my HCI (human computer interface) lecture, and it was about 3D operating system, we discussed if it will be possible in the future...

Then anwser is yes, but very far future, operating system is not just marketing home users, also business, and the most important thing for business is efficient, with a 3D desktop, you just can't do efficient, imagine, when you are using word, the words actually flowing in the air.... And software companies like Microsoft and Apple, they won't spend lots of money to develop a completely different and revolutionary os just for home users.

In the very far future, when computer can understand people more, can think for ppl (instead of only taking order for ppl), then that will be the day for 3D desktop, I think it won't happen for at least 30-50 years (or sooner, you never know)

[hanxu]

I think the new OS should have more consideration for user, for example, with finder, less clicking, less typing and you can get to where ever you want to go, and you can get where ever you want to go.... and it should be more intelligent, like garbage collections, automatically clear out garbage folder/files...

As the UI, I have to admit, the vista glass UI really blow my mind away, and the minimize feature is really cool too, but none of these are from Microsoft, the glass UI is a copy of konfabulator (just compare those two), and the minimizing is copy of Sun's solaris 10 (can't remember the exact version number).

As Mac OS 10 -> 10.1, Aqua was introduced, 10.2->10.3 brush metal was introduced, 10.4 unified look and feel was introduced, I think Apple certainly won't follow Microsoft, so maybe something you see in dashboard (widget UI?), and I hope it will be more tweakable, or Apple will introduce its own glass UI, well you never know

[vri2i]

What is Vista, some kind of scenic overlook
Is it real software running today on real computers ?

Locating an actual file of a photograph in iPhoto is damn near impossible.
I certainly don't want an OS that work anything like iPhoto.
Aperture looks intriguing, even more interesting is that some people want to base the entire operating system on it, considering it hasn't shipped yet.

It would be nice if Apple would get on the ball with making sure every new Mac could fully-support Core Image.

I was pretty disappointed when the brand-new iBook I bought in July of '02 was unsupported by Core Image in the version of OS X that was released 3 months later. I couldn't imagine buying a Mac Mini 3 years later and finding out that it wasn't powerful enough to handle Core Image either.

One of Apple's strengths has always been ensuring hardware/software compatibility, which makes their handling of Core Image rather embarrassing. No one should buy a Mac only to find out that one of the basic features of the OS update released a matter of weeks later is too much for their machine. And no one should buy a new Mac only to find out that an OS feature introduced 3 years earlier is too much for their hardware to handle.

This comment really hits home !
I think Apple would rather blow our wallets than our minds.

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