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ShotgunEd · Jan 24, 2003, 09:26 AM

I like the dock, don't get me wrong but it hasn't been updated in a long while. I'd like to see MIP back, I'd like to see minimised windows update of their own accord, and I'd like MIP to be a bit more customisable, maybe allow you to have the mini icons at desktop level rather than floating. It'd be nice if apple could build in virtual desktops into the dock, it wouldn't take up much space and would be hella handy.

mrfrost · Jan 24, 2003, 09:29 AM

Don't forget "spring loaded folders" in the dock.

ShotgunEd · Jan 24, 2003, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by Mr_Frost:
Don't forget "spring loaded folders" in the dock.

Good point. Perhaps we should make this a "Submit your ideas for the dock and we'll send to Apple as feedback" thread. We'll except without the long title.

haffar · Jan 24, 2003, 12:54 PM

This is one feature I would like.... right now if you have a window minimized in the dock, and you click on it to restore the window, the next time you minimize it, it gets placed at the end of the Dock and not in the place it was before! This is maddening behavior!

I want the minimized windows to stay in the same position whether I restore/minimize them or not (a la Windoze/Linux/CDE approach). This way you "know" where a window is, without having to hunt for it all the time when they get cycled all around. This should be basic Human interface guidelines! The current implementation is vey counter-intuitive. Imagine having the Finder cycle the icons on your desktop every few seconds. You would never know where your apps icons are! You would have to hunt for them every time. I dont know why the dock does this...

Anyone have any ideas/utilities which would fix this?

[APi]TheMan · 01:24 PM

Originally posted by haffar:
This is one feature I would like.... right now if you have a window minimized in the dock, and you click on it to restore the window, the next time you minimize it, it gets placed at the end of the Dock and not in the place it was before! This is maddening behavior!

Maddening behavior, eh? I didn't ever notice it until you mentioned it. I guess I'm not that picky

I would like to see spring loaded folders in the dock, though.

[edit: I haven't tried this MIP (minimize in place) hack yet, but it might allow you to keep your windows minimized with less "maddening behavior...]

ckohler · Jan 24, 2003, 01:28 PM

Not to sound condescending Haffar, but is it really that hard to remember the last window you minimized?

Lets say I have no minimized windows. Then I minimize Window A. Then I restore Window A. Then I minimize Window B. Are you suggesting that when I re-minimize Window A it should appear to the left of Window B in the dock? How is that any more logical?

I can envision a very complicated scenario of many previously minimized windows and many other yet to be minimized windows all minimizing into a strange order of seeming chaos.

Apple's "listed from left to right in order of minimization" is a much more sane approach, I think.

haffar · Jan 24, 2003, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by [APi]TheMan:
Maddening behavior, eh? I didn't ever notice it until you mentioned it. I guess I'm not that picky

I would like to see spring loaded folders in the dock, though.

[edit: I haven't tried this MIP (minimize in place) hack yet, but it might allow you to keep your windows minimized with less "maddening behavior...]

Actually you are right, MIP could solve this for me.... I have not tried the hack either.

So MIP and Virtual desktops? Anyone....anyone

mitchell_pgh · Jan 24, 2003, 01:46 PM

Other then spring loaded folders, I would have to say, keep the dock the way it is.

If we keep changing things, people that don't use OSX all that much will start to hate OS X because "It keeps changing"

One nice thing about OS 6-9 is that most things didn't move around all that much... Yes, things changed, but it wasn't like night and day...

I love the idea of MIP, but it is a little too PRO for many... maybe something that is OFF by standard...

Sarc · Jan 24, 2003, 02:21 PM

MIP is awesome and I encourage anyone thats a little Terminal saavy to try it. Really.

the weatherman · Jan 24, 2003, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Sarc:
MIP is awesome and I encourage anyone thats a little Terminal saavy to try it. Really.

Care to show us the way?

Thanks

Peter · Jan 24, 2003, 02:29 PM

there is a simple installer on the net somewhere ...

GoGoReggieXPowars · Jan 24, 2003, 02:30 PM

MIP needs the dock from the beta builds. I have it somewhere, but never tried it.

Sarc · Jan 24, 2003, 02:36 PM

Coming straigh from the Jaguar 6C48 build, please welcome ....

The "Minimize In Place" Hack

Instructions included.

Webscreamer · Jan 24, 2003, 02:41 PM

I ALWAYS though if you grab a window in the Dock and pull it somewhere on your desktop it should expand in the spot you drop it. Right now it is worthless unless you click it.

Good idea I think and it wouldn't hurt anyone!

Sven G · Jan 24, 2003, 02:51 PM

A question that rises spontaneously is: should the Dock and the Menu Bar remain separate (approximately Classic-Mac-style), or should the Dock become the main referent, maybe with the menus in each window and/or in powerful contextual menus (Linux-, NeXTSTEP- and Windows-style)?

It's quite obvious that the Dock needs more power (see user-definable separators, and so on) - but, IMO, there should also (complementarily) be more customisability on the Menu Bar front (see Dock/Taskbar-like drag and drop repositioning of the bar, multiple rows/columns, etc.)...

dfiler · 03:57 PM

[EDIT: My Dock ideas as submitted to apple.]

I would like to see minimized window positioning given much more thought. The current implementation is merely OK. Maximizing and then minimizing a window changes its location in the dock. Minimize in place is nice but has baggage as well.

However, the suggestion detailed below seems to fit nicely with the current interface and dock ideology.

Dock Suggestion
--------------------
Minimized windows could be placed immediately to the right of their parent app in the dock. The app and its minimized windows could have a translucent rounded rectangle background to subtlety link the related icons. These groups could be repositioned by dragging them to the new desired location.

Thus, users would subconsciously build a motor-memory reflex, speeding up mouse traversal to a desired app and its windows. No longer would windows appear in drastically different places in the dock after every use. Instead they would be put back in their app-group in the order that they were spawned.

Magnification would be done on a per app/window group rather than on a per icon basis. This could be quite beneficial. Users would mouse over the app's region in the dock and immediately get a stable/static region for improved mouse accuracy and window selection.

While this description is a bit complicated, i think users would immediately recognize and benefit from such dock functionality.

Anomalous · Jan 24, 2003, 07:01 PM

How about shift-clicking the Dock to open a program in the background?

ApeInTheShell · Jan 25, 2003, 01:14 AM

How about instead of turning this into another "i want a new dock" we gather all the previous posts about the dock and it's problems and eliminate the impractical idea's and consider what would fit with the dock realistically?

Since OS X is both a professional and consumer os rolled up into one. There should be preferences for these special features.

So as not to confuse the average user it should continue to be the location where you access thing such as the hard drive.

For if we keep reverting back to os 9 idea's all the time than what is the point of having a successor to an older os?

you will probably ignore my posts as i'm guessing alot of people do anyway.
*shrug*

bborofka · Jan 25, 2003, 03:19 AM

One thing I miss about A-Dock when I used it in OS 9 was how it shadowed the frontmost app. Yeah yeah, you can always just glance at the menu bar and see what app is the frontmost, but it'd be nice to have graphical feedback on the Dock as well... like darken the space behind the frontmost app.

I still don't like how the Dock is centered on the screen. It'd be nice to have an option to add a flexible space where the divider is so apps are anchored on one end, everything else on the other end (the dock would expand to the full width/height of the screen). Sure, there will be some empty space in the middle, but, I'd rather have that than having icons jump around every time I open an app or minimize a window.

I agree with haffar about the ordering of minimized windows. If I minimize windows, I'd like them to stay relative to each other, so I can access them quicker with muscle memory.

Hiding an application seems futile in OS X now with window minimization. I think instead of hiding, Apple should replace the function with "minimize all windows to Dock". It makes more sense, because when you Hide an app, you just really want to get the app's windows off the screen (because that was the only way to do it in 9 and earlier), but now minimization does the same thing, and you still have access to your windows.

Dragging a minimized window to the trash should close the window.

I think the big bounce an open app makes when it needs your attention is too distracting. It forces you to switch to the app because it's simply impossible to do any work when the app is bouncing like a ball an inch above the dock. I think it should be subdued to just a little jiggle, or a warning icon on top of the app's icon.

Wevah · Jan 25, 2003, 03:52 AM

Originally posted by eVo:
Hiding an application seems futile in OS X now with window minimization. I think instead of hiding, Apple should replace the function with "minimize all windows to Dock". It makes more sense, because when you Hide an app, you just really want to get the app's windows off the screen (because that was the only way to do it in 9 and earlier), but now minimization does the same thing, and you still have access to your windows.

I think that would suck. Imagine, if you will, that I have about 20 BBEdit windows open (which does happen often). Now, if I only want to hide the app, suddenly I have to watch 20 windows slide into my Dock, which also renders the icons in the dock much smaller...

Blegh.

As an option, though, I would tolerate it.

Gelfling · Jan 25, 2003, 04:15 AM

Hi all,

For the person who wanted to be able to minimise all windows at once. This can be done if you option-minimise an application.

And... with four to five windows open in an app, it gets pretty chunky minimising them all at once on my mac.

Gelfling

Fallout · Jan 25, 2003, 07:23 PM

MIP would be nice, but what I really want is the ablility to right click on a minimized window and close it in that fashion.

Chuckit · Jan 25, 2003, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by haffar:
This is one feature I would like.... right now if you have a window minimized in the dock, and you click on it to restore the window, the next time you minimize it, it gets placed at the end of the Dock and not in the place it was before! This is maddening behavior!

I want the minimized windows to stay in the same position whether I restore/minimize them or not (a la Windoze/Linux/CDE approach). This way you "know" where a window is, without having to hunt for it all the time when they get cycled all around. This should be basic Human interface guidelines! The current implementation is vey counter-intuitive. Imagine having the Finder cycle the icons on your desktop every few seconds. You would never know where your apps icons are! You would have to hunt for them every time. I dont know why the dock does this...

Actually, the behavior is analogous. If you take a minimized window out of the Dock and then put it back in, it will go to the default location where newly minimized windows go. Likewise, if you take an item out of a folder and then put it back in, it will go into the same slot any other file would.

As for ordering minimized windows, I can't imagine how that would work. Minimize three windows, bring the middle one back up, minimize another and stick it in the middle. What happens when I minimize the old middle one? The area it previously occupied is now taken by something else.

It's just not practical to maintain an arbitrary sort order for a constantly-changing set of data.

ApeInTheShell · Jan 25, 2003, 08:30 PM

eVo......were you not aware that you can turn the animations off and a pulsing arrow appears beside the application?

SvenG....i would go with how it is now. If you start up WindowsXP and look at the taskbar and an open app such as photoshop you get the app inside of a window. This is the downside because only so many windows can be stacked until you run out of space to place them.

Applications made for Mac OS X have largely gone back to using the menu bar for navigation so it is a good balance between the two forms of user interface.

juanvaldes · Jan 25, 2003, 08:32 PM

ability to close a minimized window in the dock via right click.

cpac · Jan 25, 2003, 08:41 PM

I find that "Hide Application" serves my minimizing needs, and since it's almost always command-H (except for Arobat, grr!) it's easy to do...

That said, up at the top "update windows in the dock" was requested.

Call me crazy, but my OmniWeb windows already *do* update themselves in the dock.

Big Mac · Jan 26, 2003, 03:26 AM

The Dock is far too simplistic for professionals in its current manifestation. While the default appearance and behavior should remain as it is today, the Dock should be far more customizable. If not, Apple should open the API to other developers (which is what probably should be done anyway). I saw an innovative product that did cool things; it's too bad that Apple stifles creativity in this manner.

I like the idea about clustering minimized windows with their parent applications. And of course the Dock should allow custom classes and separators. There should, for instance, be a way to separate the docked folders and files zone from the minimized windows zone. The dock position should be flexible, and there should be a way to pin it on the corners, as many others have said. There are many other great ideas, but these are the ones that stand out in my mind.

altimac · Jan 26, 2003, 05:23 AM

i hate the fact that when you copy something to the dock (option - drag n drop in the Finder), the little green "+" near the cursor disseapears when you arrive in the dock region (same for alias little arrow etc...)

the file is copied in the dock folder, but it seems inconsistent behaviour to me...

i've already submitted a bug to apple and they answer it's "correct behaviour"... but i suppose i badly express myself.... should be easioer in French ;-)

Simon · Jan 26, 2003, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by ApeInTheShell:
eVo......were you not aware that you can turn the animations off and a pulsing arrow appears beside the application?

I didn't know there was such a thing. I'd prefer that behavior. Could you tell us how to "hack" the dock to get this behavior? I suppose it's just a line in the terminal or a line in some plist file...

haffar · Jan 26, 2003, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by ckohler:
Not to sound condescending Haffar, but is it really that hard to remember the last window you minimized?

Lets say I have no minimized windows. Then I minimize Window A. Then I restore Window A. Then I minimize Window B. Are you suggesting that when I re-minimize Window A it should appear to the left of Window B in the dock? How is that any more logical?

I can envision a very complicated scenario of many previously minimized windows and many other yet to be minimized windows all minimizing into a strange order of seeming chaos.

Apple's "listed from left to right in order of minimization" is a much more sane approach, I think.

Actually what you are describing is almost exactly like how I want this to function, except for one small detail. Let me give you an example.

Lets say you have two windows in the dock (Window A, Window B). Restore window B, and I think you should get (Window A, SPACE FOR WINDOW B), but you currently get (Window A).
Now in my opinion, if you minimize Window B again, you should get (Window A, Window B), but right now you get (Window B, Window A).

Why is the current dock implementation confusing? Imagine my example with 20 windows minimized (especially if they are from the same application). Every time you restore one of them, the order changes in the dock, so you never "know" where any of the windows are. You can never develop "motor" memory. They all look the same, so you will have to search through all of them to find any particular window.

Dale Sorel · Jan 27, 2003, 12:16 AM

Originally posted by Sarc:
Coming straigh from the Jaguar 6C48 build, please welcome ....

The "Minimize In Place" Hack

Instructions included.

Very cool

gorickey · Jan 27, 2003, 12:28 AM

I think I'll wait for Unsanity's version of "MIP" built into the next revision of "WindowShade X"....they'll make it seamless and more useful then Apple probably anyway.