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Blu-ray/HD DVD... Who is winning? (Page 55)
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Now let's talk HD-DVD sales. errr
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Originally Posted by PaperNotes 
I have stated twice on this page alone that with the 4.1 update there is output to HD-DVD discs. My position was that Apple also uses HD DVD as a loose term for any HD output to optical discs (it can record h.264 to Blu-ray too if you have drivers for the recording device). Your position was that Apple doesn't use it as a loose term and that HD DVD only means the format.
Ok. Do you PERSONALLY use Final Cut Studio ever? You can get video from Final Cut Studio to a Bluray disc if you use Compressor.app. But if you go the DVD Studio Pro route you cannot burn to a Bluray disc.
The DVD Studio 4 release notes clearly state that the HD DVD burning burns to the HD DVD 1.0 specification. Which HD DVD 1.0 specification do you think they're talking about?
Originally Posted by PaperNotes
Care to show anyone in the world a HD-DVD player that makes use of a Quicktime .mov extension? Of course you can't.
Are you just trying to be stupid? HD-DVD uses .mov files for it's H.264 content.
Originally Posted by PaperNotes
Talking to you is like talking to a stupid woman who can't shut her mouth when she knows she's wrong and can't understand a thing that a man tells her. Are you a woman by any chance?
Whoa. No I'm not a woman. But uhhhhh... I wouldn't be talking like that around the ladies.
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Originally Posted by goMac
Ok. Do you PERSONALLY use Final Cut Studio ever? You can get video from Final Cut Studio to a Bluray disc if you use Compressor.app. But if you go the DVD Studio Pro route you cannot burn to a Bluray disc.
Jeez. That's now what I said. I was correcting your position that the app doesn't use HD DVD as a loose term.
Urgh, one month ago I told you that the Finder would be used to burn h.264 to Blu-ray. Fecking hell you are too vain and purposely forgetful to talk to.
This is too much stupidity for me to deal with.
You all can go back to talking about how badly Blu-ray sales are beating HD-DVD without me. 2:1 to 3:1 in the last week now.
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Originally Posted by goMac
Whoa... uhhhhh... I wouldn't be talking like that around the ladies.
You forget, we're on the internet.
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Originally Posted by PaperNotes
Urgh, one month ago I told you that the Finder would be used to burn h.264 to Blu-ray. Fecking hell you are too vain and purposely forgetful to talk to.
These discs won't work on standalone Blu-ray players... which is what we already said to you back then.
I'm surprised you're repeating this junk. Oh wait. I'm not.
Eug: 2) DVD Studio Pro cannot burn Blu-ray discs.
PaperNotes: It can output h.264 which can be burned on a Blu-ray recordable and played back in a Blu-ray player.
Perhaps if it were a PS3. However, if true that would be because the PS3 has explicit H.264 support. DVD Studio Pro cannot burn hi-def discs playable in standalone Blu-ray players.
Eug: 5) Standalone HD DVD players (which don't understand QuickTime at all), can play the official spec HD DVD discs burned by DVD Studio Pro.
PaperNotes: And any Blu-ray player will play h.264 output burned on to a Blu-ray or DVD too.
Wrong again.
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Last edited by Eug; Aug 24, 2007 at 03:54 PM.
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Originally Posted by PaperNotes
Talking to you is like talking to a stupid woman who can't shut her mouth when she knows she's wrong and can't understand a thing that a man tells her. Are you a woman by any chance?
PaperNotes, if I can be so bold as to speak on behalf of other Blu-ray supporters, we'll no longer be needing your support. Thanks.
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Originally Posted by Eug
Perhaps if it were a PS3. However, if true that would be because the PS3 has explicit H.264 support. DVD Studio Pro cannot burn hi-def discs playable in standalone Blu-ray players.
But even then the PS3 will only play the H.264 file, it won't play any content actually created in DVD Studio Pro (i.e. the menus).
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That's all nice and all but Look at the Sales figures released today.
71:29 in favor of blu-ray and the top 10 is dominated by Blu-ray.
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Originally Posted by aristotles
That's all nice and all but Look at the Sales figures released today.
71:29 in favor of blu-ray and the top 10 is dominated by Blu-ray.
Yes, I saw. I'm waiting to see what happens when Paramount's exclusives start to arrive, considering they have a few releases coming soon.
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As expected, Warner is staying neutral (at least for the time being).
WHV spokesman Jim Noonan said that Nickerson’s leaving doesn’t suggest an upcoming shift in the studio’s high-def operations. With Paramount Home Entertainment and DreamWorks Animation now HD DVD-exclusive, WHV is the only major studio to produce high-def titles in both HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc.
Over the next month, Nickerson will help Marticorena transition to her new gig. She joined WHV as director of marketing, kids entertainment, in 2001.
“I look forward to immediately collaborating with my domestic and international colleagues in this new role and doing all that is necessary to ensure success of the high-definition format in their markets as quickly as possible,” she said.
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Originally Posted by goMac
Yes, I saw. I'm waiting to see what happens when Paramount's exclusives start to arrive, considering they have a few releases coming soon.
What of the newly announced Fox and Disney blu-ray exclusive titles?
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Originally Posted by aristotles
Do you guys remember this story from 120 days ago about cheap HD Media players being ordered by Wal-mart? Do you remember how some dismissed mention of a Blue DVD player as being either Blu-ray or HD DVD? I think some of you forgot that they mentioned it would read 50GB discs.
Just for posterity's sake... aristotles' source "article" is just too funny.
N4G.com: Chinese Development recieved order for Blu-ray Players
Chinese Development recieved order for Blu-ray Players
deep - contributor
Published: 121 days 15 hours ago | News | Tech
Info Report
26
Taiwan has a glorious technological industry for the country. The latest invention of the Blue DVD players, high-quality images, high-capacity. Traditional DVD machines can only read 4.7 GB discs, but Blue DVD can read as much as 50G, that is over 12 traditional movie discs!
There has been an order from the United States for Blue-DVD players, of an estimated value of up to 10.1 billion.
  
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Why will Blu-ray extend their lead even more soon?
Because the premium PS3 titles are on their way that gamers have been waiting for. Some gorgeousity trailers.....
Metal Gear Solid.......really solid!
PS3 News: GC: Kojima frees new MGS4 trailer - ComputerAndVideoGames.com
Gran Turismo 5 Prologue!!!!! Jeesus this is gonna be awesome!!!!
News: GC: New GT 5 Prologue trailer - ComputerAndVideoGames.com
Grand Theft Auto and Unreal Tournament 3 will also be larger games due to the Blu-ray format according to the makers. More maps, characters and sharper textures.
That is four of the best selling hardcore gaming franchises all coming soon that will boost PS3 sales and Blu-ray movies. By May 2008 we'll see Blu-ray beating HD-DVD movie sales by a factor of 5 to 1. Quote me on that because it is going to happen. I'll bring up this page of this discussion again in May so the doubters (all three of them hahaha) can look like fools.
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Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:53 PM.
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Yes, with a grand total of 2 exclusive AAA titles I bet the PS3 will really start to fly off the shelves. 
Out of the dual platform games that have been on both the 360 and the PS3, the 360 version has looked better every time. And the PS3 version of Grand Theft Auto has been running late. Not to mention ID software has been trashing the PS3's low amount of memory as causing issues with running larger levels.
But that's a separate topic.
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Originally Posted by goMac
Yes, with a grand total of 2 exclusive AAA titles I bet the PS3 will really start to fly off the shelves.
Out of the dual platform games that have been on both the 360 and the PS3, the 360 version has looked better every time. And the PS3 version of Grand Theft Auto has been running late. Not to mention ID software has been trashing the PS3's low amount of memory as causing issues with running larger levels.
LOL
Give us more, goMac!!! Please we need another 55 pages of fortune telling from you.
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Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:53 PM.
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Originally Posted by Super Mario
That is four of the best selling hardcore gaming franchises all coming soon that will boost PS3 sales and Blu-ray movies. By May 2008 we'll see Blu-ray beating HD-DVD movie sales by a factor of 5 to 1. Quote me on that because it is going to happen. I'll bring up this page of this discussion again in May so the doubters (all three of them hahaha) can look like fools.
Originally Posted by Super Mario
Give us more, goMac!!! Please we need another 55 pages of fortune telling from you.
Quoted for irony.
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Originally Posted by goMac
Whoa. No I'm not a woman. But uhhhhh... I wouldn't be talking like that around the ladies.
No worries. A guy who says something like this PaperNotes guy has just proven to me that there are always people who are so incredibly dense that it's sadistically fun watching them argue. Stupidity can be fun. That kind of ignorance and stupidity is just arousingly irritating, especially when reading with your first coffee. Saves me from vomiting onto PaperNotes beautiful insults. Just like that.
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Originally Posted by Eug
Quoted for irony.
Hey wait a mo. I wasn't the one who posted 55 pages and a year's worth of posts to support for HD-DVD only to see them losing by 3 to 1 in sales.
Ah ok. I see the irony. Not me.
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Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:54 PM.
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Originally Posted by Eug
Just for posterity's sake... aristotles' source "article" is just too funny.
N4G.com: Chinese Development recieved order for Blu-ray Players
Chinese Development recieved order for Blu-ray Players
deep - contributor
Published: 121 days 15 hours ago | News | Tech
Info Report
26
Taiwan has a glorious technological industry for the country. The latest invention of the Blue DVD players, high-quality images, high-capacity. Traditional DVD machines can only read 4.7 GB discs, but Blue DVD can read as much as 50G, that is over 12 traditional movie discs!
There has been an order from the United States for Blue-DVD players, of an estimated value of up to 10.1 billion.
Rather than using smilies, why don't you tell us what you are laughing about using some "grown up" words. This should be good.
Many people refer to Blu-ray as Blu-DVD or Blu-ray DVD as erroneous as it might be. Mind you, I don't consider HD DVD to be an honest marketing name since HD DVD will not play in a DVD player and It's codecs are the same as Blu-ray (but with lower bitrates). Considering that the mentioned capacity is 50GB and no 50 GB HD DVD discs exist and that Blu-ray discs come in a Blue case, I would have to say they are talking about Blu-ray, not HD DVD light the engadget folks tried to spin it as.
The 10.1 Billion? If this report is coming out of Taiwan, I think it is safe to assume that it would be 10.1 Billion TWD = 306,057,471.32 USD which is roughly 306 million USD as an upper limit estimate.
So crunching the numbers, lets say the cost price was roughly 125 USD per unit sold at the final price of 199.00. That would be a total shipment of roughly 2.5 million units which is hardly an unreasonable number for wal-mart on such a low price item.
Do you still have a smile on your face?
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Circuit City is selling the Toshiba A2 for $279 US
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Originally Posted by Chongo
Circuit City is selling the Toshiba A2 for $279 US
That's an OK, but not great price. Amazon has it for $227.
BTW, the Toshiba HD-A2 is now #1 in all of Consumer Electronics at Amazon.com. Impressive.
#2 is a Garmin GPS
#3 is a $1.13 HDMI cable
#4 is a Canon camera
#5 is a $20 2.0GB SD card
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Only 1 HD-DVD in the current Amazon high def Top 5 and it's a TV series not a movie.
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Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:49 PM.
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Originally Posted by Super Mario
Only 1 HD-DVD in the current Amazon high def Top 5 and it's a TV series not a movie.
And it's #1. It's $70 too, vs. ~ $25 for a movie.
Also, if you look at the top 10, 25, and 50, HD DVD is leading, leading, and tied respectively. (BD is leading for the top 100.)
This is likely just transient, but since you brought up Amazon hi-def software sales... 
EDIT:
I just checked again, and now of the top 5, three are HD DVD:
1) 300
2) 300
3) Heroes
4) The Departed
5) POTC: The Curse of the Black Pearl
6) Casino Royal
7) POTC: Dead Man's Chest
8) Shaun of the Dead
9) The Fifth Element (Remastered)
10) Happy Feet
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Damn list keeps changing every minute though because it is a live feed thedvdwars.com has an RSS feed from Amazon parsed into HTML
The Product Wars fought on Amazon.com
In the last hour the HD-DVD version of 300 jumped into top place from way down the chart.
Top 5 is now
1 300, HD-DVD
2 300, Blu-ray
3 Heroes, HD-DVD
4 Pirates of the Caribbean - The Curse of the Black Pearl, Blu-ray
5 Casino Royale, Blu-ray
There's more Blu-ray in the top 100 than HD-DVD as usual. HD-DVD has only been better recently in price but still losing by between 2:1 and 3:1.
Look at the "Who's On Top" time line
The Product Wars fought on Amazon.com
It's Blu-ray winning right across 90% of the board according to Amazon data
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Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:40 PM.
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Venturer HD DVD Player to Ship in Time for 2007 Holiday Sales 8/28/2007
Venturer Electronics today announced the launch of its first HD DVD player for the North American market. Responding to strong consumer demand for high definition video playback devices, Venturer will introduce the SHD7000 that offers the superior HD movie experience as defined by the DVD Forum. Featuring 1080i video output and an HDMI connection, the SHD7000 is designed to be compatible with the vast majority of HDTVs already in North American consumers' homes. With Ethernet connectivity to the network , the SHD7000 also allows users to access bonus features from movie studio web servers and unlock special prerecorded content on some HD DVD discs. Dolby TrueHD rounds out the high definition experience by presenting the HD DVD disc soundtrack as it was meant to be heard, virtually equal to the studio master. In addition to its HD DVD playback capability, the SHD7000 will upconvert standard DVDs to near HD picture quality via its HDMI connection, allowing a consumer's existing library of DVDs to look better than ever. CD playback is also supported. The SHD7000 will be distributed in North America by Venturer Electronics of Markham, Ontario, and sold through national retailers with retail prices expected to be one of the lowest among entry-level HD DVD players. Venturer Electronics, headquartered in Markham, Ontario, offers a wide selection of value-priced, high quality consumer electronics products. Since 1988, Venturer has focused on making the latest echnologies affordable to North American consumers.
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Originally Posted by Montezuma58
Amazon is having a buy 2 get 1 free sale on select HD DVD and Blu-Ray titles.
I don't see how that could influence the battle between the formats in any way.
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No wonder their chart is changing every minute.
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Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:40 PM.
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Originally Posted by TETENAL
I don't see how that could influence the battle between the formats in any way.
It can't much but it is an indication. The real war is fought in brick and mortar stores where HD-DVD is losing more and more shelf space. Retail property is too expensive per square foot to give lots of space to a losing format.
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Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:40 PM.
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Originally Posted by TETENAL
I don't see how that could influence the battle between the formats in any way.
I don't either But it's still a good deal.
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Originally Posted by Montezuma58
Thanks for mentioning this. I just placed a couple of orders. This is a great deal for people like me who have a 10% discount on all Blu-ray and HD-DVD movies at Amazon. (Apparently I get it because I bought my PS3 through Barnes & Noble's web site, even though it was actually from Gamestop -- it says "BN discount" in my cart). It's especially good since they deduct 10% of the total price of the three movies (including the free one).
300, Hellboy, and A Scanner Darkly for $37.51 shipped.
Casino Royale, Apocalypto, and Pirates of the Caribbean 1 for $40.91 shipped. Not bad.
I also wanted to get Layer Cake and 2 other $14.95 movies, but something about Layer Cake shipping in 1-2 weeks throws off their promotion and the discount doesn't show up.
As for how this affects the format war, it's interesting that there are about twice as many BR titles available for this sale as HD-DVD titles. Also, I just bought 6 Blu-ray movies that I wasn't originally planning to buy, and I'm considering more.
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Last edited by icruise; Aug 28, 2007 at 06:33 PM.
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P.S. As for the Chinese HD DVD player that Venturer announced (see my post above):
Wal-Mart sells Venturer products.
Furthermore, the player is made by Alco, which makes stuff for Wal-Mart's own Durabrand line.
Originally Posted by icruise
As for how this affects the format war, it's interesting that there are about twice as many BR titles available for this sale as HD-DVD titles. Also, I just bought 6 Blu-ray movies that I wasn't originally planning to buy, and I'm considering more.
The weird part is right now HD DVD disc sales are outrunning Blu-ray disc sales at Amazon. I would have expected this deal to affect both formats similarly, but it seems to have helped HD DVD more. Perhaps it's because of the Paramount/Dreamworks announcement and the cheap Toshiba players at Amazon too.
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Originally Posted by Eug
The weird part is right now HD DVD disc sales are outrunning Blu-ray disc sales at Amazon. I would have expected this deal to affect both formats similarly, but it seems to have helped HD DVD more. Perhaps it's because of the Paramount/Dreamworks announcement and the cheap Toshiba players at Amazon too.
They are also giving 3 discs with the purchase of an HD DVD player. I think they also have a similar deal with Blu-Ray players but I'm not sure about that. Anyways they've been selling the HD-A2 for $210. In other words its really difficult to assign any meaning to the current Amazon sales figures.
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Yeah, I just bought an A2 from Amazon last night with 300, Serenity, and Batman Begins. $218 shipped. I really didn't want to pick a side, but I'm tired of waiting. I'm also cheap.
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nice.. good choice of titles, too 
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Please do. That would make your championing of HD-DVD in this discussion make a little more sense.
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Originally Posted by Super Mario
Grand Theft Auto and Unreal Tournament 3 will also be larger games due to the Blu-ray format according to the makers. More maps, characters and sharper textures.
I don't get this sentence regarding GTA. It's clearly going to be a bigger game on the 360 with it's exclusive downloadable content. Other than that it will be identical graphics.
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Originally Posted by icruise
Please do. That would make your championing of HD-DVD in this discussion make a little more sense.
I'm rooting for online distribution as I've said. But in the optical format war I prefer HD-DVD.
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -
I don't get this sentence regarding GTA. It's clearly going to be a bigger game on the 360 with it's exclusive downloadable content. Other than that it will be identical graphics.
Yeah, actually now that you point it out, GTA is actually going to be bigger on the 360.
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8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Originally Posted by goMac
I'm rooting for online distribution as I've said. But in the optical format war I prefer HD-DVD.
Only because you made it clear over the last year that you lurve your Nintendos so much that it makes you feel insecure to see Sony successful at anything, as if that somehow ruins your enjoyment of DS and Wii games. You equate Blu-ray success with PS3 success. Your whole reason to attack Blu-ray is to attack a console. Kinda fanboyish and dumb. Makes you look even more foolish when sales of Blu-ray movies are racing ahead of the format you do support.
Yeah, actually now that you point it out, GTA is actually going to be bigger on the 360.
If you have proof of play that would be nice to see. Why would it be bigger on the X Box when it was the Playstation that made the franchise as big as it is? As for Unreal 3, the makers said it was going to be bigger on the PS3.
Hope you enjoy your purchase of the external HD-DVD for the X Box 360 that you say to have. It's so nice to have external disc drives dangling from a console.
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Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:41 PM.
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Originally Posted by Eug
The weird part is right now HD DVD disc sales are outrunning Blu-ray disc sales at Amazon.
Yeah for a day or two by a fraction
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Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:41 PM.
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Originally Posted by Super Mario
Why would it be bigger on the X Box when it was the Playstation that made the franchise as big as it is?
$50 million
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -
Ah so they're getting paid for that content. It's not like the 360 was getting it because of some technological advantage. Are the Unreal guys getting paid for extra PS3 content or are they doing it like they said because Blu-ray allows them to add more material?
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Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:41 PM.
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Single layer Blu-ray discs are being filled up with the next gen games. How long before most games will require 50GBs of disc space?
News: Heavenly Sword not possible on DVD - ComputerAndVideoGames.com
The benefits of the higher storage capacity of Sony's Blu-Ray discs have once again been pulled into the spotlight as Heavenly Sword chief development 'Ninja', Nina Kristensen, tells CVG that the game would simply not be possible on DVD.
"We have jam-packed the Blu-Ray disc absolutely full," declared Kristensen, as she confirmed rumours that the audio alone was allocated 10GB of space on the 25GB Blu-Ray discs.
That's more than an entire dual-layer DVD game, which holds a total of 8.5GB.
We wandered if this meant compression methods usually used to squeeze content onto normal DVDs had not been used, but Kristensen insisted otherwise: "We used compression all over the place. We had to be really judicious at the end with what was going on the disc and what wasn't.
"I think it's one of those things - if you give us the space we're going to fill it with stuff. It means the audio can be of a higher quality and stuff like that. It all adds to the quality of the package," she told CVG.
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Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:41 PM.
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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While no one is denying that the PS3 has a slight technological advantage, it doesn't help when it's harder to program for and less people buy it.
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -
While no one is denying that the PS3 has a slight technological advantage, it doesn't help when it's harder to program for and less people buy it.
Pro game developers don't care about that hard to program for shill. They just put in the effort. That's why Killzone 2, GTA, Unreal 3, Heavenly Sword, GT:HD and GT Prologue look and play the way they do. McCormack said Rage looks and plays exactly the same on PC, 360 and PS3 and there was no delay in development time due to "PS3 is hard to program for". Pro developers aren't bouyed by goMac style theories of programming.
The PS3 is no more expensive than a fully kitted X Box 360 with HD-DVD drive. There's a $20-30 dollar difference and you don't get optical discs attached to USB. It's one unit. No hassle. Easily rechargeable controllers etc.
Stop bringing up old invalid arguments that were beaten to death a year ago. As soon as games require something like 50GB discs there will be a lot of 360 owners scratching their heads wondering why their consoles have paltry DVD drives and are going to be told by game companies they have to go out and buy an external drive to play the latest games. They might as well have bought the PS3 in the first place.
On the bright side the X Box 360 isn't tied to HD-DVD and can be attached to a Blu-ray drive when the time comes that HD-DVD won't have the capacity.
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Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:41 PM.
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Originally Posted by Eug
The weird part is right now HD DVD disc sales are outrunning Blu-ray disc sales at Amazon.
Since fan boys on both sides have been FReeping Amazon with coordinated buys in the past, I wouldn't put a lot of stock on what's happening with its sales on any given day.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
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Originally Posted by *TL
Since fan boys on both sides have been FReeping Amazon with coordinated buys in the past, I wouldn't put a lot of stock on what's happening with its sales on any given day.
There is currently no coordinated buy, on either format.
However, there are 3 for 2 sales on both HD DVDs and Blu-ray discs right now. There are also deals for Blu-ray and HD DVD players where extra discs are thrown in. After looking at the stats, it would seem to me that HD DVD is winning in terms of disc sales right now because a lot more people are buying HD DVD players. In fact, the Toshiba HD-A2 is #1 in all of Electronics at Amazon. Right now, in the DVD player/recorder section at Amazon, the three Toshiba players are in the top 5. In the overall Electronics category, the three Toshiba players are #1, #18, and #77.
The top Blu-ray standalone is the Sony, at #15 in the DVD player/recorder section, or #416 in Electronics.
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Registered User
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Originally Posted by *TL
Since fan boys on both sides have been FReeping Amazon with coordinated buys in the past, I wouldn't put a lot of stock on what's happening with its sales on any given day.
That's so true. Amazon doesn't count for much compared to brick and mortar retail anyway so they can FReep away on Amazon all they want until their wallets run out.
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Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:41 PM.
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Originally Posted by Eug
It would seem to me that HD DVD is winning in terms of disc sales right now...
The salesrank top 100 is still owned by Blu-ray.
because a lot more people are buying HD DVD players. In fact, the Toshiba HD-A2 is #1 in all of Electronics at Amazon.
Same ol' story for how long? Stand alone HD-DVDs blah blah blah. Still can't beat Blu-ray disc retail sales.
Aside from blowing undisclosed amounts of cash on movie execs Toshiba is desperately flogging their crap at low cost now. Combined HD-DVD playback devices still won't match combined Blu-ray devices being shipped as standalones, in PCs (ratio is 7:2) and with consoles
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Last edited by Super Mario; Jan 10, 2018 at 02:41 PM.
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