[Big Mac]

Israeli scientists have apparently made a breakthrough in cancer research: Israelis find key to containing cancer

It is called simply p53, a short name that belies its starring role in halting the spread of cancer.

Israeli scientists already knew that when it is activated, the p53 gene produces a protein that can halt and even kill cancerous cells. Now, a team headed by Prof. Yinon Ben-Neriah and Dr. Eli Pikarsky of the Institute for Medical Research Israel-Canada at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem have discovered that p53 also governs a mechanism that keeps those deadly cells from invading healthy epithelial tissue lining the cavities and surfaces of many internal organs.

As the researchers described in the February issue of the journal Nature, the ability to "turn on" p53 could be a critical means of protection against colorectal and other epithelial forms of cancer.

Israel has a leading role in bio-tech despite its size, with the third highest number of bio-tech startups per capita. Education is prized in Israel. Israelis develop technology that the modern world benefits from considerably. If Israelis truly do have a cancer breakthrough here, I want all Israel-haters to vow never to seek the benefits of that research. I want guys like Athens to promise never to get any form of treatment available as a result of this development. Those who hate Israel can be consistent in their hatred and not benefit from the fruits of Israeli genius. They can go look for cutting edge microchips and medical breakthroughs from the Arab/Islamic terrorist groups and terrorist countries whose driving aspiration - destroying Israel - they so strongly sympathize with. You know, the kinds of creatures in the streets protesting the death of Bin Laden (YM"SH).

[subego]

4/10.

Needs more cowbell.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

If Israelis truly do have a cancer breakthrough here, I want all Israel-haters to vow never to seek the benefits of that research. I want guys like Athens to promise never to get any form of treatment available as a result of this development.

Once again, you completely misunderstand and insist on painting people critical of the Israeli *government* with an overly large brush. It is possible to be critical of the decisions made by the of a group of people without hating everyone in that group of people.

[Big Mac]

Thanks but no. You're the one who doesn't get it. Equating Israel with Nazi Germany isn't merely being critical of the Israeli government. That's rabidly anti-Israel sentiment that speaks to underlying pathological hatred of Jews (aside from being one of the most insulting things to write in a debate with any normal Jew). I'm just asking for consistently applied hatred, applied across the board. A person who so hates the Jewish state he could make such a provocatively offensive analogy shouldn't derive benefits from Israeli technology.

[imitchellg5]

Wow, it didn't take long for old Godwin to rear his head here.

Who here hates Israel for their medical achievements or denies them? Israel is pretty well-respected internationally for having some of the best doctors and medical institutions in the world. However, I always feel like cancer research, especially that done in Israel or Germany, will never make it to the US thanks to pharmaceuticals here.

But this thread is already off-topic, so...

[The Final Dakar]

Politicizing cancer treatment. Didn't think it was possible. I was mistaken.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Great idea.

I think you should work with government in Israel to come out with an official state policy: "If You Don't Like Us Being Here, We Won't Cure Your Cancer."

It's fair, and it's firm. I think everyone will accept this decision and you will come out smelling like roses and this would probably be a major step on the way to reducing both Middle Eastern conflict and antisemitism around the globe.

[SpaceMonkey]

[Wiskedjak]

Big Mac, I hope you don't use any of the following technologies, either directly or indirectly:
-television
-jet-propelled aircraft
-guided missiles
-electronic computers
-the electron microscope
-ultracentrifuge
-atomic fission

[Jawbone54]

Personally, I'd love to have my own guided missiles...

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Big Mac, I hope you don't use any of the following technologies, either directly or indirectly:
-television
-jet-propelled aircraft
-guided missiles
-electronic computers
-the electron microscope
-ultracentrifuge
-atomic fission

TV: multiple iterations, mostly mechanical, were developed before Philo Farnsworth patented is all electron beam system.
Jet propulsion:Multiple methods by different countries.
The V1 and V2 were point and shoot.
-electronic computers we'll give you that one.
-ultracentrifuge Sweden gets that one
-atomic fission- US, Japan, USSR were also working on it.

[Wiskedjak]

All I'm saying is that there were many contributions to current technologies made from Germany while the Nazis were in power. There's even debate about their contributions to medical science, including cancer research. I'm also wondering if Big Mac has ever ridden in a Volkswagon or Audi ...

[Athens]

Yes, because it does not matter how many cures for Cancer they find. What matters is they stop doing the things that cause people to hate them. If a bully decides one day to help a old lady across a street but yet still continues to be a bully afterwards, is he a bully or a saint. Actions speak louder then words, deeds speak for themselves. When Israel changes its approach to dealing with things, mainly stops using terror to fight terror and starts handling the situation in a more humane way their image will improve vastly.

PS, Yes I will still use the drugs, and any technology. I will also continue to be friends with my Jewish friends some of which hate Israel more then me. During the Bush years I did not stop watching American TV, using American goods, and still continued to seek out Made in North America products over Asian made products for the economic and environmental benefits of buying more local. Being at odds with a political establishment and condemning national policies does not require avoidance of products, services and people.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

The V1 and V2 were point and shoot.

For the V-1, I don't know what you mean by "point and shoot" except in the more general sense that would apply to any missile. It had a simple inertial guidance system (odometer and timer) and autopilot. The V-2, by contrast, was ballistic and operated in free-fall after setting a launch trajectory.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Big Mac, you're blowing this press release way out of proportion. There is nothing ground-breaking here. These results simply corroborate what has been believed by everyone world-wide in this field for decades: p53 is good. They didn't invent any new way to boost p53. What they did was the opposite, they removed p53 and things got worse. Well... duh. It's a good experiment, no doubt about that, but so are hundreds done every day. The "brave new world" tone you detect is from the publicist, not the science.

Just FYI

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Big Mac, I hope you don't use any of the following technologies, either directly or indirectly:
-television
-jet-propelled aircraft
-guided missiles
-electronic computers
-the electron microscope
-ultracentrifuge
-atomic fission

Bah, forget about these.

The AUTOBAHN is all I need

-t

[Chongo]

Don't drive A Subaru either.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

For the V-1, I don't know what you mean by "point and shoot" except in the more general sense that would apply to any missile. It had a simple inertial guidance system (odometer and timer) and autopilot. The V-2, by contrast, was ballistic and operated in free-fall after setting a launch trajectory.

Both were aimed in the general direction and hoped they hit their intended target. The V-2 was more accurate. The later versions were closer to what we know today.
V-2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The V-2 was guided by four external rudders on the tail fins, and four internal graphite vanes at the exit of the motor. The LEV-3 guidance system consisted of two free gyroscopes (a horizon and a vertical) for lateral stabilization, and a PIGA accelerometer to control engine cutoff at a specified velocity.
Some later V-2s used "guide beams" (radio signals transmitted from the ground) to keep the missile on course, but the first models used a simple analog computer that adjusted the azimuth for the rocket, and the flying distance was controlled by the timing of the engine cut-off, "Brennschluss", ground controlled by a Doppler system or by different types of on-board integrating accelerometers. The rocket stopped accelerating and soon reached the top of the (approximately parabolic) flight curve.

The "guide beams " could be jammed.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

All I'm saying is that there were many contributions to current technologies made from Germany while the Nazis were in power. There's even debate about their contributions to medical science, including cancer research. I'm also wondering if Big Mac has ever ridden in a Volkswagon or Audi ...

It's probably safe to say that a lot of countries that experience turmoil are technological innovators. A lot of the technologies that we have today in computers and phones is thanks to US military research in the '80s and '90s. A lot of the progress in the automobile (especially design) was made by Germany in the '30s and '40s. For Britain, the same can be said of aerospace design. War dictates a need for innovation, and it makes sense that Israel would be medical innovators.

[Athens]

Try 50's, 60's. It only made its way to the public in the 70's and 80s. The foundation for a lot of our technology today came from WW2

[finboy]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

For the V-1, I don't know what you mean by "point and shoot" except in the more general sense that would apply to any missile. It had a simple inertial guidance system (odometer and timer) and autopilot. The V-2, by contrast, was ballistic and operated in free-fall after setting a launch trajectory.

Correct. Both were random, pointless weapons with no real guidance system as we know it today. If the V2 had been made in quantity a year or so earlier, though, it may have changed the war. The V2 effort contributed to the development of missile tech after the war, etc.

Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is ludicrous, but I understand why people do it - they have no understanding of history and they believe what they are told to believe and repeat the Kool Aid Talking Point of the Week (Month, Year)... ad nauseum.

Maybe Israel's ENEMIES should be compared to Nazi Germany?

[The Final Dakar]

Glad the OP has come back to this thread.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Glad the OP has come back to this thread.

Huh? Where's Big Mac?

I think the original question can be answered thus (I forgot last post): Israel will always be hated. It makes no difference if Israeli medicine cures cancer or solves hunger, etc. There will always be those who are predisposed through their religion or tradition to hate Jews. Some of those people are Muslim, some are of other religions.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by finboy 

Correct. Both were random, pointless weapons with no real guidance system as we know it today. If the V2 had been made in quantity a year or so earlier, though, it may have changed the war. The V2 effort contributed to the development of missile tech after the war, etc.

Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is ludicrous, but I understand why people do it - they have no understanding of history and they believe what they are told to believe and repeat the Kool Aid Talking Point of the Week (Month, Year)... ad nauseum.

Maybe Israel's ENEMIES should be compared to Nazi Germany?

Or maybe they should stop taking play's out of the Nazi game book. That would go a lot further in ending the comparisons. Israel has said it many times, fight fear with fear, fight terror with terror.

Originally Posted by finboy 

Huh? Where's Big Mac?

I think the original question can be answered thus (I forgot last post): Israel will always be hated. It makes no difference if Israeli medicine cures cancer or solves hunger, etc. There will always be those who are predisposed through their religion or tradition to hate Jews. Some of those people are Muslim, some are of other religions.

And others are just responding to current and on going brutality and provocation who are not religious or predisposed to anything but just reacting to Israel over reactions. I think the largest group of Israel haters fall into this last group. Stop the war crimes so we can move beyond this current ugliness and move forward.

[besson3c]

I'm cool with Israel, but I absolutely *hate* Azrael... I mean, just look at this stupid cat:

[brassplayersrock²]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I'm cool with Israel, but I absolutely *hate* Azrael... I mean, just look at this stupid cat:

post of the year goes to

[imitchellg5]

Oh gosh, now besson is going to parade around calling himself "2011 Post of the Year Winner."

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Wow, it didn't take long for old Godwin to rear his head here.

Who here hates Israel for their medical achievements or denies them? Israel is pretty well-respected internationally for having some of the best doctors and medical institutions in the world. However, I always feel like cancer research, especially that done in Israel or Germany, will never make it to the US thanks to pharmaceuticals here.

But this thread is already off-topic, so...

You breeze past the mountainous terrain of red tape and regulation necessary to bring new treatments to the US market to arrive at pharmaceuticals being the culprit of a delay?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Or maybe they should stop taking play's out of the Nazi game book. That would go a lot further in ending the comparisons. Israel has said it many times, fight fear with fear, fight terror with terror.

Source of Israel saying many times; "fight fear with fear" and "terror with terror" please?

And others are just responding to current and on going brutality and provocation who are not religious or predisposed to anything but just reacting to Israel over reactions. I think the largest group of Israel haters fall into this last group. Stop the war crimes so we can move beyond this current ugliness and move forward.

So... the leadership of a portion of a sliver of land the size of New Jersey, source of endless conflict; is interested in provoking the hostility that both infiltrates it and flanks it? It's no wonder a great many Israelis have tired of fruitless appeasement policies.

[Athens]

You don't need appeasement policies. What you do need is to stop building settlements and to stop kicking Palestinians out of homes and to stop bulldozing homes. What you do need is more investigative fact/proof based arrest policies and proper and fair trials of accused terrorists not just rounding up people at random. A more police approach vs military approach.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

On a totally random note, do you think Big Mac needs to get laid? He's single, right? And devoutly religious, which I take to mean "isn't getting any"? Because everytime I see this thread title on the main page I ask myself, "who uses the phrase 'bears fruit' unless they're not getting laid"?

It's a valid question.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

You breeze past the mountainous terrain of red tape and regulation necessary to bring new treatments to the US market to arrive at pharmaceuticals being the culprit of a delay?

Uh, yes, since pharmaceuticals are the largest lobbies in the US (apart from Israel itself).

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

On a totally random note, do you think Big Mac needs to get laid? He's single, right? And devoutly religious, which I take to mean "isn't getting any"? Because everytime I see this thread title on the main page I ask myself, "who uses the phrase 'bears fruit' unless they're not getting laid"?

It's a valid question.

Seriously?

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Athens 

You don't need appeasement policies. What you do need is to stop building settlements and to stop kicking Palestinians out of homes and to stop bulldozing homes. What you do need is more investigative fact/proof based arrest policies and proper and fair trials of accused terrorists not just rounding up people at random. A more police approach vs military approach.

That's much too logical.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Athens 

... stop building settlements and to stop kicking Palestinians out of homes and to stop bulldozing homes.

... more investigative fact/proof based arrest policies and proper and fair trials of accused terrorists not just rounding up people at random.

= appeasement

[finboy]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Stop the war crimes so we can move beyond this current ugliness and move forward.

But Israel doesn't really have any control over Hamas.

Nor do they control Israel is portrayed by biased folks in the media and at the UN. You know, Goldstone has come out against the abuse of the Goldstone report by the anti-Israel crowd. That must be a big deal if he's willing to come out against it - maybe it was wrong to start with.

When Israel is again allowed to control its ports and borders, we'll be able to "get beyond" and actually see solutions. This latest round of crap is just more of the continuing story.

[Big Mac]

I guess Athens thinks the US committed "war crimes" because it invaded the house of Bin Laden in Pakistan and put a bullet in his head (allegedly). But Athens doesn't care about the actual war crimes committed by Hamas/PA (they're publicly one in the same again as they were under Arafat, YM"SH, so it certainly makes no sense to keep up the charade of distinguishing between them). War crimes like heinous suicide bombings, hundreds of rocket attacks per year on bordering Israeli towns (including firing of rockets in civilian areas and using civilians as human shields to make Israeli reprisals look bad), kidnapping and illegal detainment of soldiers. Athens has no problems with those war crimes, I can see.

No, but Israeli defense in any form is unconscionable. Israel, in actuality, has been kinder to its enemies than any other country I can think of. Israel concedes constantly in the hopes of fostering peace (serving only to embolden its enemies). It even warns its enemies after they strike that reprisals are going to come in the form of lightly bombing evacuated enemy buildings. That's not a sufficient amount of kindness toward one's foes for Athens, though. I'm sure in his mind, Israel should completely disarm itself, withdraw to 10 mile radius of land and pray for compassion from their new Arab overlords, right?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Israel should completely disarm itself, withdraw to 10 mile radius of land and pray for compassion from their new Arab overlords, right?

So am I correct in assuming that you do not think this action would bear fruit?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I guess Athens thinks the US committed "war crimes" because it invaded the house of Bin Laden in Pakistan and put a bullet in his head (allegedly).

You haven't read any of my posts, I think he died of natural causes and they did a body recovery and was already dead. But assume he was captured alive, and he was executed on the spot, your dam right im against it and would consider it a war crime, or a crime against humanity. Just like Gitmo is. Don't for a second think I paint the US as a sweet innocent angle.

But Athens doesn't care about the actual war crimes committed by Hamas/PA (they're publicly one in the same again as they were under Arafat, YM"SH, so it certainly makes no sense to keep up the charade of distinguishing between them).

Actually I do, have you ever asked me? Either Israel or some other agency can do this but its simple. You interview witnesses, you review video surveillance, you track down those responsible and you arrest them, take them to court. Give them a fair trial. Convict them and put them in Jail. You don't blow up buildings and shoot at people randomly as a response.

War crimes like heinous suicide bombings, hundreds of rocket attacks per year on bordering Israeli towns (including firing of rockets in civilian areas and using civilians as human shields to make Israeli reprisals look bad), kidnapping and illegal detainment of soldiers. Athens has no problems with those war crimes, I can see.

Then your blind. And you said it best, reprisals. Forget about justice and order and civilized way of doing things. Reprisals are better. Who has the army, the tanks, the jets, the ships vs what Rocks, sticks machine guns and rockets. When was the last time Palestinians created a colony in Israel by first kicking Israelis out of homes then bulldozing them to the ground to make way for new Palestinian homes. Wait that doesn't happen. Honestly I would like to be really blunt with you about what I think with your perspective of things but I don't actually want to be banned.

No, but Israeli defense in any form is unconscionable. Israel, in actuality, has been kinder to its enemies than any other country I can think of. Israel concedes constantly in the hopes of fostering peace (serving only to embolden its enemies). It even warns its enemies after they strike that reprisals are going to come in the form of lightly bombing evacuated enemy buildings. That's not a sufficient amount of kindness toward one's foes for Athens, though.

This isn't defense this is retribution, retaliation and terror. Figure out the difference. Not other place on this planet operates likes this. Not the British and IRA, not the Kerds and Turkey, not the Chechen rebels and Russia and not even the Chinese and Tibet. You did not see on going provocation, relocation, terror and destruction. The British employed investigative Technics to the bombings and captured accused, and gave them fair trials. They didn't bomb North Ireland indiscriminately cutting off everything and subjecting the people into poverty as a punishment. The British didn't colonize part of Northern Ireland forcing people out of homes. Turkey has not done these things with the Kerds and the most violent and bloody of all of them the Chechen conflict, which was more a war between armies did not mirror what goes on between Israel and Palestine. Gronzy was the most destroyed city ever since WW2 (nicely rebuilt today) during the campaign and the Russians still did a better job dealing with Chechen rebels that lasted for years after the conflict. Not in ways I approve of they didn't provide fair trials but they didn't carpet boom innocent people either. They still used tactics against rebels I would consider war crimes but it was still better then what goes on with Israel today.

I'm sure in his mind, Israel should completely disarm itself, withdraw to 10 mile radius of land and pray for compassion from their new Arab overlords, right?

No not at all. Just stop the settlements, stop bulldozing homes and stop shooting randomly over peoples heads, or randomly picking up people with out cause and trial people in a fair justice system not summery conviction by generals and commanders. Is it really to much to ask? See a guy with a gun or a rocket sniper his ass. Thats a combatant. Its no use trying to reason with you, you see them as dogs, non humans and don't care.

The entire area needs to be wiped off the map. Israel, and Palestine, all has to go. All of it.

[Athens]

BTW Big Mac, why do you care so much about it. Are you American or Israeli?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Athens 

BTW Big Mac, why do you care so much about it. Are you American or Israeli?

Wow, you don't get Judaism at all.

*facepalm*

-t

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

The entire area needs to be wiped off the map. Israel, and Palestine, all has to go. All of it.

But...it won't go. None of it. It's all staying, right where it is.

That always ****s up people who have ideas that don't actually work in the "real world." You one of them?

[Big Mac]

Yeah, it's somewhat amazing that a person like Athens would call for the destruction of the entire region. He advocates for a second Holocaust against my people because they have the nerve to want to live in their ancestral homeland. Because they are part of the fulfillment of the prophesied restoration of Israel. But it's not surprising that people so far removed from the conflict are still so troubled by it that they would call for such a despicable thing. After all, it is prophesied:

"It shall come to pass on that day that I will make Jerusalem a stone of burden for all peoples; all who bear it shall be gashed, and all the nations of the earth shall gather about it" (Zechariah 12:3).

Who would have thought a people nearly annihilated by a systematic campaign of genocide would rise to restored sovereignty over their homeland, against all odds? Who would have thought they would have prospered despite so many dedicated powers vowing and attempting repeatedly to annihilate them again, to push them to the sea? But it's all been foreseen including the ultimate outcome, and yet still people today persist in wanting to ignore that truth and instead irrationally vilify and seek to destroy the Jewish people for existing and being free. It's amazing how much free will we get to exercise as human beings that some people can choose the clearly evil, clearly losing side, like Athens. Others have clearly chosen good, and I'm very thankful for that. Very soon, it seems to me, it will again be demonstrated how outlandishly wrong the Jew/Israel haters are.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Wow, you don't get Judaism at all.

*facepalm*

-t

Or I get it and reject the notion of hating on Israel means hating on all Jews. Its not my problem some Jewish faith people can't distinguish a difference between a religion and a country while most non Jewish people can and do. Israel is a f*ing country and can and will be criticised as such for its deeds like any other. I will never accept that makes me a automatic Jew hater. I have no problem with Jewish people as I don't have any problem with Muslim people and American people or any other peoples. I still hate on the US for lots of stuff it does and I absolutely hate on a lot of Muslim countries. THANK GOD that many Muslims know the difference between hating on IRAN and being Anti Muslim. Until this notion can be understood by BIG MAC im never going to quit referring back to it.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

But...it won't go. None of it. It's all staying, right where it is.

That always ****s up people who have ideas that don't actually work in the "real world." You one of them?

I was not being literal, but that region will be the cause of WW3 and It would not shock me if at the end of it, nothing was left.

Real world solution would be for the world to disarm both sides and put both sides under a police/peace keeping force and do away with any independence from any side. These are the rules, live by them, if you don't you spend time in jail. The region is to volatile due to 3 major religions so take governance away from any one religion and let the religions do there thing together as equals and govern it all under one set of rules by a secular international government. Thats my real solution.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Yeah, it's somewhat amazing that a person like Athens would call for the destruction of the entire region. He advocates for a second Holocaust against my people. But it's not surprising that people so far removed from the conflict are still so troubled by it that they would call for such a despicable thing. After all, it is prophesied:

"It shall come to pass on that day that I will make Jerusalem a stone of burden for all peoples; all who bear it shall be gashed, and all the nations of the earth shall gather about it." (Zechariah 12:3).

How ignorant of you, im calling for the destruction of everything in that area and you spin it off as in a Jewish centric way. This is not inclusive of only Israel. Not a systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of a single religious group. All of it. Christians, Atheists, Muslims, whites, blacks asisns I don't care. And im not talking about wiping out the people per say, don't care if they stayed or left. But the land itself like a Asteroid smacking dead centre creating a new ocean where land once was or 10 000 Nukes. No holy sites no holy wars. No land for people to fight over because of religious beliefs. That location has to much blood for it to ever be peaceful.

Who would have thought a people nearly annihilated by a systematic campaign of genocide would rise to restored sovereignty over their homeland, against all odds? Who would have thought they would have prospered despite so many dedicated powers vowing and attempting repeatedly to annihilate them again, to push them to the sea? But it's all been foreseen including the ultimate outcome, and yet still people today persist in wanting to ignore that truth and instead irrationally vilify and seek to destroy the Jewish people for existing and being free. It's amazing how much free will we get to exercise as human beings that some people can choose the clearly evil, clearly losing side, like Athens. Others have clearly chosen good, and I'm very thankful for that. Very soon, it seems to me, it will again be demonstrated how outlandishly wrong the Jew/Israel haters are.

Dude the homeland is some place middle Africa, its where people evolved from. And what side have I sided with? Im on no ones side. Im on the side of good not murder and terror. Your the one siding with murder and terror. Your just all false propaganda. And there your go again mixing criticism of Israel with hating Jews. Your so full of yourself im actually afraid you believe in that bullshit. What do you call some one who hates on Iran, a Muslim hater?

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

But Athens doesn't care about the actual war crimes committed by Hamas/PA (they're publicly one in the same again as they were under Arafat, YM"SH, so it certainly makes no sense to keep up the charade of distinguishing between them). War crimes like heinous suicide bombings, hundreds of rocket attacks per year on bordering Israeli towns (including firing of rockets in civilian areas and using civilians as human shields to make Israeli reprisals look bad), kidnapping and illegal detainment of soldiers. Athens has no problems with those war crimes, I can see.

Neither do you apparently, because Mossad does all of those quite frequently (and admits it). They especially like car bombs. Israel has committed international war crimes as well, including having the same illegal nuclear weapons that the UN searched Iraq for and continues to search for in Pakistan, India, and Iran. But, it's okay, because Uncle Sam and Israel are BFFs. BTW, Mossad itself on their website say that the conflict started when the UN, an outside player with no idea about the region founded the state of Israel. They're right.

Nobody has clean hands here.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Athens 

How ignorant of you, im calling for the destruction of everything in that area and you spin it off as in a Jewish centric way. This is not inclusive of only Israel. Not a systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of a single religious group. All of it. Christians, Atheists, Muslims, whites, blacks asisns I don't care. And im not talking about wiping out the people per say, don't care if they stayed or left. But the land itself like a Asteroid smacking dead centre creating a new ocean where land once was or 10 000 Nukes. No holy sites no holy wars. No land for people to fight over because of religious beliefs. That location has to much blood for it to ever be peaceful.

I hope you're joking, because that is the most obscene thing I have ever heard. You talk about "war crimes" yet you're parading destroying millions upon millions of innocent men, women and children? Plus, the Middle East has literally had a millenium of peace as well. The area was quite peaceful under the Greek, Roman, and Ottoman Empires. Religious beliefs were accommodated, Muslims and Jews lived side-by-side in the region (Just as 99% of them do today, BTW), trade flourished, and innovation was occurring at a rate that is quite impressive even by today's standards.

[Athens]

Its a god thing the Canadian Government didn't respond to FLQ terrorist the same way Israel responds to Palestinian terrorists. Quebec would be a ruined land with broken people no economy, poverty a wall around the territory lots of deaths through out the country and tens of thousands of dead Quebecors. A breeding ground for continued violence. World condemnation against Canada. Could have been like that when the British took over and instead of a distinct society and the allowing of them to keep their culture they could have attempted to cleanse them and force the British way of life on the land. Had events played out differently 250 years ago it could be very different here. Im pretty thankful the government didn't try to bomb the FLQ into submission 35 years ago because many of my relatives could be dead now if they had.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I hope you're joking, because that is the most obscene thing I have ever heard. You talk about "war crimes" yet you're parading destroying millions upon millions of innocent men, women and children? Plus, the Middle East has literally had a millenium of peace as well. The area was quite peaceful under the Greek, Roman, and Ottoman Empires. Religious beliefs were accommodated, Muslims and Jews lived side-by-side in the region (Just as 99% of them do today, BTW), trade flourished, and innovation was occurring at a rate that is quite impressive even by today's standards.

Of course im not serious, im just playing pages out of Big Macs "how do be a dick for idiots book." I am serious about the region being disarmed and over seen by a international governance with all sides being treated the same.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Neither do you apparently, because Mossad does all of those quite frequently (and admits it). They especially like car bombs.

That's a quite a ridiculously large disparity you're attempting to ignore through moral equivalence, and it's not endearing. How many car bombs does the Mossad execute per year versus the number of rockets Hamas launches per year? I think the numbers are overwhelmingly against your simple moral equivalence. Additionally, would you rather the Mossad not act, allow a terrorist to perpetrate a mega-attack against Israel and thereby ensure many more Arab deaths in the general war Israel would be forced into as a reprisal?

Israel has committed international war crimes as well, including having the same illegal nuclear weapons that the UN searched Iraq for and continues to search for in Pakistan, India, and Iran. But, it's okay, because Uncle Sam and Israel are BFFs.

Illegal? Depends on what standard you want to recognize, I suppose. I'm skeptical of international law that contravenes sovereign nation-state authority, especially on core matters of national defense. Every sovereign country on earth has the right to self-defense and the obligation to defend its citizens, and the nuclear deterrent Israel possess is a huge part of its self-defense regime. And with Israel's nukes you never have to worry about proliferation to unfriendly countries or terrorists. It would be an illegal abrogation of the defense of Israel's citizenry for Israel not to have nuclear deterrence, in my opinion at least. But you can villify Israel's ability to defend itself as much as you wish. I don't find it to be a credible argument at all, and I sleep better at night as an American Jew knowing Israel is so armed. (You should also take note of the fact that the argument you put forth in trying to condemn Israel's nuclear arsenal as illegal is the very same argument that middle eastern tyrants like Ahmadinejad often resort to in order to deflect attacks on them. You put yourself in league with some very despicable people with that insipid argument.)

Nobody has clean hands here.

Israel's hands aren't entirely, clean, no. No country has an entirely clean record. For Israel's part, the country has allowed for more bloodshed on both sides by giving in to left-wing forces that have had it concede land and strengthen the position of its enemies who have consistently sought to destroy it and persist in that endeavor to this day. Israel is far from perfect, certainly, but my greatest criticism of the country is on the polar opposite from where your criticism emanates. For example, I argue Israel is far more restrained and kind to its enemies than any other country I can think of. But your attempt at moral equivalence is a stretch way too far and gross in my book. With that said, you're still far better than the likes of Athens at least.