[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Do you really think that they should go changing around the OS at the whim of the loudest complainers? What should the response have been?

"Thank you for your comments about SO X Leopard which has been out for a whole several hours. We will get to changing stacks to your liking right away! Love, Apple."

You assume that the complaining about this feature has only started last night. This would be an incorrect assumption - it's only lately that we're able to complain about it in public.

[dfbennett]

[QUOTE=Kevin;3516458]

Originally Posted by MOTHERWELL 

I can't believe I didn't know about this:


I've been doing that since 10.0
It was my Apple menu replacement. Didn't require any hacks either.

same here, now it's forcing me to rethink how to organize the aliases to commonly used apps. I've been using a system like that since my first Mac in 99 running 8.5. Hopefully someone will find a better way. to stacks

[Tom C]

Has anyone tried installing the 10.4 dock on 10.5? Maybe somebody who already has 10.5 is willing to be a guinea pig. Try saving /System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app from 10.4 and dropping it into 10.5. Let us know what happens.

I liked docked folders as they were. I thought they were better than the classic Apple menu; you could have more than one of them, and if you wanted to modify a docked folder's contents, you just clicked on the folder instead of burrowing into the system folder like you did for the Apple menu in the classic OS. Putting a folder on the desktop is no substitute because it isn't always on top and easy to get to.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7 

Now we get our version of it with Stacks, 3D docks, and translucent menu bars.

I love stacks and the look of the 3D dock. You can say and complain that you do not like them, but saying that 10.5 is anything like vista is .. well going a bit overboard.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by Tom C 

Has anyone tried installing the 10.4 dock on 10.5? Maybe somebody who already has 10.5 is willing to be a guinea pig. Try saving /System/Library/CoreServices/Dock.app from 10.4 and dropping it into 10.5. Let us know what happens.

I tried it, but it won't let you overwrite it. Maybe it would in single user mode, but I doubt it would work anyway.

I did find that you can get around stacks by making an alias to a folder and putting the alias in the dock. It won't give you a hierarchal view, and it opens in the Finder, but at least it won't open in a stack and it doesn't mess up the folder icon.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Geobunny 

Why not? They change it around at the whim of some designer. I'm not saying for one second they shouldn't have done stacks, all I'm saying is they shouldn't have removed existing (and well-used) features on a whim.

Because it costs them money, it takes up time and resources that could be and SHOULD BE working on more important things, sales and publicity are more important to them and until either of these start to go into the negative all the whining means nothing, and you can't make everyone happy. Especially Mac users.

Actually, it is. They removed previously existing features thereby breaking some usability of the OS.

So there's no way to access these folders without the hierarchal menus? Removing a feature does not equate to "breaking usability"

If they hadn't changed the "little thing" (which to me and others here is not so little) in the first place, then we wouldn't be screaming about it now and asking them to change it back.

Mac users whine about every single new iteration of the OS. Then they get over it, find a new way to work within the new system and move on. Expecting Apple to give in every time they hear some complaining is unreasonable and silly.

Actually, we're trying to use it in exactly the way it was designed. Apple even told us, way back when, that we were to use hierarchical folders in the Dock as a replacement for the Apple menu. It is they who have changed the design, we're not trying to use it any differently.

I was referring to the Dock itself and all the initial knee-jerk reactions to it. Not the hierarchal folders thing.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Mac users whine about every single new iteration of the OS. Then they get over it, find a new way to work within the new system and move on. Expecting Apple to give in every time they hear some complaining is unreasonable and silly.

I started using Macs with 10.2, and have loved every single version up until Leopard. Being uphappy that they changed the way the old stacks worked, without offering a comparable substitute, is justified.

Not only did I use the old stacks (and I call them stacks since that's what Apple calls them now) extensively myself, but it also really helped me when I switched Windows users to OS X, since it offered a very familiar way for them to access their Applications without putting them all in the Dock. They can still get to their Applications with the new stacks, but it looks terrible in comparison.

And now I find out that Time Machine corrupts Aperture databases, it's down to Spaces and iChat's screen sharing as Leopards last two redeeming qualities.

[Geobunny]

Oh dear, it gets worse. I've got 103 items in my Applications folder, yet only 80 show up in the silly stack display. This was never an issue with the hierarchical menu.

[MartiNZ]

[QUOTE=dfbennett;3516557]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

same here, now it's forcing me to rethink how to organize the aliases to commonly used apps. I've been using a system like that since my first Mac in 99 running 8.5. Hopefully someone will find a better way. to stacks

Therein lies my main issue. Stacks are fine, it's just the FORCED paradigm shift rather than an on/off option a la spaces, that gets my goat ... or guts the cat maybe in this case.

I have put aliases of a subset of my games in a stack, only 7 so that they still fan out on my 12", because I find that prettier than the grid. That seems to work well. I've now put a subset of the folders in my Home folder in a stack, thinking I would be able to spring-load files into folders in the stack - and yet it seems not. THAT would be useful, just like the old functionality of Stacks - what I guess we would have got if they had released on time in May!

[0157988944]

Is it true that you cannot make stacks out a a few selected icons any more, but must instead drag a folder to the dock?

[CharlesS]

Yes.

[0157988944]

Why would they take that out? Wasn't it working fine in dev builds? AHHHH!

[CharlesS]

They did it after "considerable deliberation". Beats me why.

[0157988944]

So now, thanks to their deliberation, I have to create a useless folder with the things that I want in my stack just so I can drag it to the dock and have it behave the exact same frigging way as a selection.

THANKS, Apple. I was looking forward to having a little apps repository there, but that's going to be annoying to do now.

[Toyin]

Jeez what a bunch of whining.

I'm sorry but hierarchal menus in the dock is one of the MOST inefficient ways to do half of the things people are whining about.

Guess what? There might be more efficient ways to accomplish what you're doing now. Why not experiment and try different work flows. If this was 10.1 I may have agreed with a lot of you.

The 2 major complaints seem to be no Heirarchical menus destroys easy access to nested files and quickly launching applications.

Navigating Nested Folders. A Finder window in column view is WAY more efficient then drilling through hierarchical menus. Not only can you quickly drill through a bunch of folders, you can edit names and move files. Not only that you don't loose your window if you accidently stray off the windows like can happen with menus. I have one finder window open at all times and it's one click away, just like dock menus. You also have the sidebar which gives you customizable start points.

Application launching? From hierarchical menus? How 90s. I can launch ANY of my 100+ applications in less then 6-7 key strokes. I used Quicksilver before Leopard, but the new Spotlight is damn fast and learns quickly. My commonly used apps take 3 keystrokes (including [return]). That's less time then it takes for a large hierarchical menu to even appear.

I'm not saying that stacks is the be all and end all, but it's actually the 1st time I've used the dock for anything other then dragging temporary items to it or using it to launch specific items. I've always used the dock to keep track of what apps I'm running. I never use the dock for launching. The only application that stays in my dock is the Finder.

[.Neo]

I definitely agree with you on the Spotlight part.

[Geobunny]

Originally Posted by Toyin 

Guess what? There might be more efficient ways to accomplish what you're doing now. Why not experiment and try different work flows.

I have been trying, believe me. I've been running each pre-release version of 10.5 on my machine at work as my full-time OS and (among many other issues which already have their own threads) stacks are quite simply much LESS efficient than hierarchical dock menus. I've not found anything which comes close to replacing the lost efficiency.

Navigating Nested Folders. A Finder window in column view is WAY more efficient then drilling through hierarchical menus. Not only can you quickly drill through a bunch of folders, you can edit names and move files.

Be honest now, once you've named and placed them, how often do you actually edit names and move files? I would have to say very rarely.

As for navigating nested folders, let's play a little game called count the mouse clicks. We're going to navigate a real folder hierarchy all the way down to opening an actual file which I currently have sitting on my machine inside ~/Documents/Coding/WebStuff/AjaX/Testing/index.html The Documents folder is in my Dock.

Now, with hierarchical menus in 10.0-10.4's Dock, opening this document takes a grand total of TWO mouse clicks: first is a right-click on the Dock tile and then move the mouse through each folder in turn (none of which you have to click on) and the second click is once I've got the document.

Now, with 10.5's dock it takes eight :
Click dock tile
Click Coding
New Finder window has just opened, move eyes from far right of screen to centre.
Click WebStuff
Click Ajax
Click Testing
DOUBLE-Click index.html
Click to close the unnecessary Finder window (admittedly you can take the count down to seven by holding the option key as you double click, but still it's a helluva lot more than two)

Now can you honestly sit there and tell me that the new way is more efficient? For what it's worth, I chose index.html to emphasise the fact that Spotlight would be no help here whatsoever; I have literally hundreds of files called index.html on my hard disk.

Not only that you don't loose your window if you accidently stray off the windows like can happen with menus.

Again, I have to say that happens very rarely. If you accidentally stray off, you just simply wander back on as the menu stays open.

I have one finder window open at all times and it's one click away.

Not if your one Finder window is on a different space - you'll be whisked off to some forgotten land with nary a second thought and you're left wondering WTF happened to the stuff you were just looking at. This, however, is the subject of another thread, I was just using it to back up my argument. If you're responding to this comment, can you do it in that thread please to keep this on on topic. Ta.

Application launching? From hierarchical menus? How 90s.

Maybe so, but there's a lot of mileage in the old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

I can launch ANY of my 100+ applications in less then 6-7 key strokes. I used Quicksilver before Leopard, but the new Spotlight is damn fast and learns quickly. My commonly used apps take 3 keystrokes (including [return]). That's less time then it takes for a large hierarchical menu to even appear.

I use Quicksilver too and my commonly used apps take two keystrokes (or one if you don't count the modifier key separately). The less commonly used ones used to be a quick right-click left-click in the dock but now some of them don't even bloody well show up any more and I'm left with a silly wee arrow saying "24 Mo...Finder". My utilities folder is one of said 24 items which means I've now got to dedicate another space on the Dock to it.

[Toyin]

Originally Posted by Geobunny 

I have been trying, believe me. I've been running each pre-release version of 10.5 on my machine at work as my full-time OS and (among many other issues which already have their own threads) stacks are quite simply much LESS efficient than hierarchical dock menus. I've not found anything which comes close to replacing the lost efficiency.

If at 1st you don't succeed...

Originally Posted by Geobunny 

Be honest now, once you've named and placed them, how often do you actually edit names and move files? I would have to say very rarely.

Actually since I had issues with my iPhone syncing videos, I've been moving and renaming files quiet a lot recently. Even without that issue, I download and read medical articles frequently and rename and move them regularly.

Originally Posted by Geobunny 

As for navigating nested folders, let's play a little game called count the mouse clicks. We're going to navigate a real folder hierarchy all the way down to opening an actual file which I currently have sitting on my machine inside ~/Documents/Coding/WebStuff/AjaX/Testing/index.html The Documents folder is in my Dock.

Now, with hierarchical menus in 10.0-10.4's Dock, opening this document takes a grand total of TWO mouse clicks: first is a right-click on the Dock tile and then move the mouse through each folder in turn (none of which you have to click on) and the second click is once I've got the document.

Now, with 10.5's dock it takes eight :
Click dock tile
Click Coding
New Finder window has just opened, move eyes from far right of screen to centre.
Click WebStuff
Click Ajax
Click Testing
DOUBLE-Click index.html
Click to close the unnecessary Finder window (admittedly you can take the count down to seven by holding the option key as you double click, but still it's a helluva lot more than two)

Now can you honestly sit there and tell me that the new way is more efficient? For what it's worth, I chose index.html to emphasise the fact that Spotlight would be no help here whatsoever; I have literally hundreds of files called index.html on my hard disk.

Most definitely YES. This is not a matter of clicks, but a matter of time, target size and muscle memory.

For me your example doesn't work. One Click gives me a finder window in column view. Clicking each folder would be faster for me because that's what I'm used to. Loosing the menu happens enough to be annoying. So does over/under shooting your target which usually causes another delay as you wait for the next menu to appear.

It's all muscle memory. You're used to menus, I'm used to Column view.

But let's go a little further, say after you launched your document you now want to open a file in your Ajax folder. With your method, you have to go back to the Dock and start the process over. With column view it's either one click or command+[ to return to the previous directory.

Originally Posted by Geobunny 

Maybe so, but there's a lot of mileage in the old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Since you no longer have hierarchical menus in the dock, your system is most definitely 'broke'.

Originally Posted by Geobunny 

I use Quicksilver too and my commonly used apps take two keystrokes (or one if you don't count the modifier key separately). The less commonly used ones used to be a quick right-click left-click in the dock but now some of them don't even bloody well show up any more and I'm left with a silly wee arrow saying "24 Mo...Finder". My utilities folder is one of said 24 items which means I've now got to dedicate another space on the Dock to it.

You simplify the process. Your quick right click then left click is actually:
1. Take hand off keyboard and reach for mouse
2. Move arrow down or over to the dock
3. Right click and wait a fraction of a second for menu to appear
4. Search for item in menu
5. Move mouse arrow to item
6. Left click item

Quicksilver/Spotlight
1. Command Space
2. Type S
3. Press Enter
Safari is launched

For giggles I just decided to try an application I haven't used yet, Migration Assistant
1. Command Space
2. Type Migr
3. Press Enter

Wow this new spotlight is freaking quick!

Anywho, got to go, the World Series is starting.

[jaefde58]

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7 

I tried it, but it won't let you overwrite it. Maybe it would in single user mode, but I doubt it would work anyway.

I did find that you can get around stacks by making an alias to a folder and putting the alias in the dock. It won't give you a hierarchal view, and it opens in the Finder, but at least it won't open in a stack and it doesn't mess up the folder icon.

This is a great tip. It may lessen the stacks pain that lots of us are feeling.

Create an alias of your applications or documents folder.
Place it in the dock
Set the find window to "no toolbar" , "show path"
Use the view options, dialog to set "always open in list view" or "always open in cover flow"
Move and resize the window so that it hovers near the dock icon.

When you click on it, it will open a finder window, that you can navigate via mouse, scroll wheel, keyboard.
Use Command up/down/left/right to reveal items.
You can also switch views to temporarily between list, or column view.
When you are finished, just close the window. The next time you click on the dock the window settings will be restored back to their original settings.

If you are using spaces, you may get switched into a different space. I set my finder to always open in space 1, so I know that when I click on the dock item, I am on a journey to space 1.

Here is screen shot of what I am talking about:
.Mac Web Gallery

[Geobunny]

Originally Posted by Toyin 

If at 1st you don't succeed...

Cute, but you're forgetting that the introduction of Stacks to ADC members happened quite a long time ago. I can assure you that I didn't give up after the first attempt.

Since you no longer have hierarchical menus in the dock, your system is most definitely 'broke'.

Which is what I've been saying all along; it wasn't 'broke' and now it is. Glad we can agree.

[arcticmac]

For me, the whole thing of hierarchical navigation is part of the thought process. For example, say I want to launch an app. It's almost more of a "let see, I want to edit a photo. Okay, here's a list of graphics editors I can choose from. hm... preview or photoshop... hm... okay, photoshop". That's the idea at least. And it works pretty well on a context menu, which I like because you can click, (and I usually just keep holding down) and just drag and release on your app of choice. Sweet and fast.

Why not spotlight? Well, see, for my math homework I have a bunch of files called hw01.tex, hw02.tex... etc. However, none of them actually contains the word homework, because it happens that it's in an external header that they all include. So, go to spotlight, type "math homework". 10 seconds later, it's finished its search, and there's no sign of the file I'm after. The compiled pdf is there, but not the tex source. damn. so, try again. "Math set" and "math hw" both fail to pull up the tex source. ****. Now I have to go to the finder and pull it up there. So, spotlight fails. Maybe for application launching it'd be a good thing, but not for finding/opening files quickly.

Now, what about your solution of finder windows in column view... let's take the *whole* process, not just the actual navigating:

My way:
1. mouse to bottom of screen at approximate location of apps folder in dock (actually, I had a folder with some subfolders with just a subset of my apps, but the idea is the same)
2. dock pops up and I correct position slightly
3. I right click and drag up the menu
4. I select the category of app I want (or, say, the class I want) and hover for about .1 seconds while the submenu pops up
5. I mouse right and head for the app or file I'm after and click on it

Your way
1. Okay, I need a finder window. Let's see. three ways. Apple-tab (move hand to keyboard, since it's usually more on the mouse when thinking about what to do next; hit apple-tab; oh ****, the finder's hidden at the bottom of the app stack, so I have to press tab another six or seven times, and then wait to make sure I landed in the right place for letting go. Or I could use the mouse, but if I've just done apple-tab, my hand is on the keyboard, not the mouse) or expose (first I hit f10, discover it's the wrong one, then hit f9, then have to hunt through half a dozen windows to find the finder window, assuming it's even there, which it may not be if I've either accidentally closed it or have hidden the finder, and in that case, you either have to go to the mouse from the keyboard again (even worse because it's normal to use the *right* hand for f9, which is the same one I use for the mouse), or hit an arrow key a bunch of times to select the window I'm after) or I could just click on it in the dock and wait to be dropped into a new finder environment, which, I should mention is already the first half of my process anyway - go to the dock.
2. OK, now I've got a finder window. Great. Move the mouse to it, or move your hands back to the keyboard and prepare to do keyboard navigation
3. click on the starting point in the sidebar
4. move to and click on the subfolder of apps
5. double click on the app you want to launch
6. attempt to predict what method you'd like to use in #1 next time, and, if not expose, then either hide the finder or close the winodw to keep the screen clean.

I dunno, my process sounds simpler to me.

The good news is that the dock still has a file in it (DockMenus.plist) which has an item "folder" which sounds more like the old way of doing things, as opposed to the item "directory" which is clearly the new "folder stack" way. Also, note that there's a "filestack" item as well, so hopefully that feature will be back as well.

PS. I just did some more research on that last statement. "folder" mode works, but doesn't enable the context menu. In fact, when the dock reads it, it changes the type to "file" and then, on the next launch, sees that it has a folder incorrectly listed as a file and sets it back to being a "directory". "filestack" didn't work, at least, not by just changing the type of an already present item.

[smacintush]

Good posts Toyin, you're right on the mark.

Hierarchal folders are only really useful (IMO) if you are only going one or two levels deep. Anything more and they are not worth a crap. How '90's indeed.

Oh well, if Apple ever gives in to the whining it'll be long enough that most of you will actually have learned to use other features of your system and it won't be in issue anymore.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Geobunny 

Which is what I've been saying all along; it wasn't 'broke' and now it is. Glad we can agree.

I think that since you can't adapt, maybe YOU are the one who is broke.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by arcticmac 

For me, the whole thing of hierarchical navigation is part of the thought process. For example, say I want to launch an app. It's almost more of a "let see, I want to edit a photo. Okay, here's a list of graphics editors I can choose from. hm... preview or photoshop... hm... okay, photoshop". That's the idea at least. And it works pretty well on a context menu, which I like because you can click, (and I usually just keep holding down) and just drag and release on your app of choice. Sweet and fast.

Why not spotlight? Well, see, for my math homework I have a bunch of files called hw01.tex, hw02.tex... etc. However, none of them actually contains the word homework, because it happens that it's in an external header that they all include. So, go to spotlight, type "math homework". 10 seconds later, it's finished its search, and there's no sign of the file I'm after. The compiled pdf is there, but not the tex source. damn. so, try again. "Math set" and "math hw" both fail to pull up the tex source. ****. Now I have to go to the finder and pull it up there. So, spotlight fails. Maybe for application launching it'd be a good thing, but not for finding/opening files quickly.

Now, what about your solution of finder windows in column view... let's take the *whole* process, not just the actual navigating:

My way:
1. mouse to bottom of screen at approximate location of apps folder in dock (actually, I had a folder with some subfolders with just a subset of my apps, but the idea is the same)
2. dock pops up and I correct position slightly
3. I right click and drag up the menu
4. I select the category of app I want (or, say, the class I want) and hover for about .1 seconds while the submenu pops up
5. I mouse right and head for the app or file I'm after and click on it

Your way
1. Okay, I need a finder window. Let's see. three ways. Apple-tab (move hand to keyboard, since it's usually more on the mouse when thinking about what to do next; hit apple-tab; oh ****, the finder's hidden at the bottom of the app stack, so I have to press tab another six or seven times, and then wait to make sure I landed in the right place for letting go. Or I could use the mouse, but if I've just done apple-tab, my hand is on the keyboard, not the mouse) or expose (first I hit f10, discover it's the wrong one, then hit f9, then have to hunt through half a dozen windows to find the finder window, assuming it's even there, which it may not be if I've either accidentally closed it or have hidden the finder, and in that case, you either have to go to the mouse from the keyboard again (even worse because it's normal to use the *right* hand for f9, which is the same one I use for the mouse), or hit an arrow key a bunch of times to select the window I'm after) or I could just click on it in the dock and wait to be dropped into a new finder environment, which, I should mention is already the first half of my process anyway - go to the dock.
2. OK, now I've got a finder window. Great. Move the mouse to it, or move your hands back to the keyboard and prepare to do keyboard navigation
3. click on the starting point in the sidebar
4. move to and click on the subfolder of apps
5. double click on the app you want to launch
6. attempt to predict what method you'd like to use in #1 next time, and, if not expose, then either hide the finder or close the winodw to keep the screen clean.

I dunno, my process sounds simpler to me.

The good news is that the dock still has a file in it (DockMenus.plist) which has an item "folder" which sounds more like the old way of doing things, as opposed to the item "directory" which is clearly the new "folder stack" way. Also, note that there's a "filestack" item as well, so hopefully that feature will be back as well.

PS. I just did some more research on that last statement. "folder" mode works, but doesn't enable the context menu. In fact, when the dock reads it, it changes the type to "file" and then, on the next launch, sees that it has a folder incorrectly listed as a file and sets it back to being a "directory". "filestack" didn't work, at least, not by just changing the type of an already present item.

Way to go deliberately making the process of opening a finder window and navigating through it sound as complicated and convoluted as possible.

[Geobunny]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

I think that since you can't adapt, maybe YOU are the one who is broke.

Why should I have to adapt and change the way I work just because someone at Apple thinks it's not the best way to do things? We've proven quite well, just within this thread, that's there are a number of different ways to do stuff and a number of different opinions. No one of them is better than the other, yet one has been removed for no good reason.

How would you feel if Apple decided in 10.6 that column view actually wasn't such a good idea after all and removed it completely? Would you be upset and vocal or would you just take it lying down and 'adapt'?

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Toyin 

Navigating Nested Folders. A Finder window in column view is WAY more efficient then drilling through hierarchical menus. Not only can you quickly drill through a bunch of folders, you can edit names and move files. Not only that you don't loose your window if you accidently stray off the windows like can happen with menus. I have one finder window open at all times and it's one click away, just like dock menus. You also have the sidebar which gives you customizable start points.

I agree with you. Both the older docked folders and the new Stacks are more awkward than just keeping a Finder window open.

I think Stacks will be better as a "Dock extender," but not much else. Stacks for your games or office apps or "current projects" can make the Dock less cluttered, but Stacks of all your documents or pictures just doesn't scale. I've got dozens of apps, but thousands of documents and photos. Of course, docked folders were equally lousy for documents or photos.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Geobunny 

Why should I have to adapt and change the way I work just because someone at Apple thinks it's not the best way to do things?

Because it's not Geobunny Mac OS X, it's Apple Mac OS X. Why do you and so many others feels as if you are "entitled" to certain features? Apple has their reasons to abandon things they did in the past. Most of the time they do this and it's for the better. Sometimes it's not.

no good reason.

Says who? YOU? Who are you to say?

How would you feel if Apple decided in 10.6 that column view actually wasn't such a good idea after all and removed it completely? Would you be upset and vocal or would you just take it lying down and 'adapt'?

Lie down and adapt? You make it sound as if our rights are being taken away!

It's just an OS, I would do the same thing I did when they took away the tabbed windows that I used everyday, and windowshade, and when they broke the spatial finder, and when they (for a time) took away spring-loaded folders and made applescript nearly useless, and when they gave me a dock that is totally mediocre…I will learn a new way to do the things I want to and I will get over it. It's just an OS fer Jebus' sakes.

[Big Mac]

It's unfair to say this is just a Geobunny issue - a major portion of us are in complete agreement that this is a terrible choice on Apple's part. And it's unfair to compare the losses going from OS 9 to OS X. This isn't a completely different OS we're talking about - this is an OS X upgrade. This marks the first time Apple has ever completely taken away core functionality that existed in all previous versions of the OS. Don't be an Apple apologist just for the sake of it.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

It's unfair to say this is just a Geobunny issue - a major portion of us are in complete agreement that this is a terrible choice on Apple's part. And it's unfair to compare the losses going from OS 9 to OS X. This isn't a completely different OS we're talking about - this is an OS X upgrade. This marks the first time Apple has ever completely taken away core functionality that existed in all previous versions of the OS.

All previous versions? You sure about that? I don't remember hierarchal folders in the early incarnations of OS X. Then again maybe I just wasn't using them until later.

Don't be an Apple apologist just for the sake of it.

I've never been an Apple apologist. I've been here long enough to show that. I don't have a problem with people not liking something Apple has done. I just think it's idiotic that so many act as if Apple OWES THEM SOMETHING and something like this is the end of the world. There are things in OS X that have been there from the start that I don't like and there are changes that have been made that I don't like. I just don't go behaving as if it's the end of my computing world or as if Apple should give in to everything I want. Stacks obviously has some problems that need to be addressed and once they do that the bitching will probably go away. Even without the hierarchal folders.

If Leopard is good enough to use then use it, if it's not then don't. If it really, REALLY sucks then go buy Windows or a Windows machine. Really it's as simple as that.

[mjankor]

This hurts me to say it but a few of you are "Diehard Apple Apologists" As Geobunny said, what would you do if Apple pulled column view from the Finder?

My main issue with stacks is that they do not achieve anything more than what was available through docked folders in Tiger but they remove some of that functionality.

Here's something I wrote on the Mactalk forums

I was hoping for a lot more from Stacks. I've had a think about it and this is what I've come up with.

The main problem with stacks is that it gives us nothing more than a proxy to a folder view. This is no different to what was available in Tiger. The only differences between Stacks and placing folders in the dock in Tiger are that:

We now get a shiny proxy of a folder view rather than a real folder view
We lose heirarchic right click folder lists
We get to see the top most icon in the dock
As you can see there's no significant benefits to the Stacks and one significant loss (hierarchic folder listings).

What I was hoping for was the retention in Leopard of the current Tiger feature, that of browsing folders dropped into the dock, as well as Stacks. I was also hoping Stacks would:
Be created from folders or documents dragged to the dock. If you dragged 5 documents to the dock they would form a stack.
Be able to stack files from many places, not just one folder.
Be able to add new documents to a stack.
What would be cool would be to use the Stacks feature to tie a list of otherwise separate documents together for short term use. If I want to work on a handle of documents for a project I would just drop them in my current project stack to have immediate access to them, irrespective of where they are on the hard drive.

Stacks have to augment and work alongside folders, not replace them. Currently Stacks are Leopards Flip 3D feature. Pretty to look at but a waste of space. However at least Apple can improve on them. I just hope they do.

Now, just because you have a workflow that doesn't use the heirarchic menus doesn't mean your workflow will work for others. Spotlight is awesome but in some cases, such as mine, where I have many project files all with very similar names, it won't work.
Column view is nice and very fast for navigation, but I typically require list view to identify project files. It's also quite a few more clicks than a heirarchic menu.

Smacintosh, for you it may be "just an OS" but for me it's a production tool. If you like stacks so much, then explain why it's better than the docked folders approach of Tiger. If stacks means nothing to you, then stop apologising for Apple.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by Geobunny 

How would you feel if Apple decided in 10.6 that column view actually wasn't such a good idea after all and removed it completely?

It would be ok because there's Spotlight! After all, everyone knows the exact name of every file they could ever want to open at any given time, and no one ever has more than a couple of files with the same name.

Besides, it would be perfectly OK for him to use Column View up until Apple decides it is no longer necessary, at which point he would consider himself wrong for having used it up until then.

[jbg232]

I just registered for an account because I believe so strongly in this issue as you can see from my forum post at macrumors:

Stacks will kill your dock productivity - Read this if you use folders in your dock! - Mac Forums

Basically, this is not just about Application productivity. I use three folders in the dock - applications, documents, and photos. The last two are organized by date and it is very convenient to navigate them through the dock. Could I do it with finder? Yes, I could. Is it more functional for me? No, the way I use my computer it is not. I think the main problem that we "Ctrl-Click-Folder-In-Dock-Lovers" are saying is that they have replaced something that used to be functional with something that really is not to us without even giving an option to disable it. We CAN all adapt, but using a computer should also be enjoyable and easy.

The best example I can give is the qwerty keyboard... Briefly, the history of the qwerty keyboard is that it was designed to be as inefficient as possible so that the keys didn't jam in the first typewriters. The newer keyboard layout design (dvorak), once you learn how to use it markedly improves typing efficiency but at the cost of a learning curve to use it. If apple suddenly changed the keyboard layout to dvorak keys, yes we COULD all adapt, but would we really want to? Given, this is a much less extreme version but the same point is true, we CAN adapt, but why should we if what we're doing now is what we're comfortable and efficient with? In the end it is just the fact that apple didn't allow a backwards compatibility option that makes most of us upset.

One more thing... Apple has been deleting posts off of their website that address this issue. It's almost as if they are afraid that would be upgraders won't upgrade because they've realized their mistake. All the major mac forums have views and posts in the thousands regarding this issue. It is not small and easily overcome because it is at the heart of user-friendly computing.

If you would like apple to change stacks back or at least give an option to disable it please send them feedback at:

Apple - Mac OS X - Feedback

[mjankor]

Try to find a faster way to do this.
Open a projects folder on a server
navigate to jobs
navigate to a job folder
navigate to reports folder
choose the report you need

I can do that with 2 clicks, how many do you need.
No matter which approach you take you'll have to move the mouse a fair way. The only way to not move the mouse is through keyboard navigation.

[CharlesS]

Or: (again)

http://bugreport.apple.com

[mjankor]

Originally Posted by jasonsRX7 

It would be ok because there's Spotlight! After all, everyone knows the exact name of every file they could ever want to open at any given time, and no one ever has more than a couple of files with the same name.

Besides, it would be perfectly OK for him to use Column View up until Apple decides it is no longer necessary, at which point he would consider himself wrong for having used it up until then.

hehe

[swiz]

It would be different if stacks were a new option, but they aren't, they are the new replacement for something that wasn't broke; it is function following form and thats just backwards.

I could understand Apple not leaving us the option to continue using folder hierarchy in the dock IF it were bloating the OS but thats not the case.

I only use column view and if Apple removed it... I don't want to think about that...

Stacks are here and they aren't going to make or break my computing so I'll adapt... now how about the new Mail I love it.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by mjankor 

If you like stacks so much, then explain why it's better than the docked folders approach of Tiger. If stacks means nothing to you, then stop apologising for Apple.

I never said I like stacks so much. I said that it's OK and that hierarchal folders aren't too great either.

And where did I apologize for Apple? Why is it that if I disagree with the whiners then I am an apologist? Is this how it is played? I get labeled and pigeon-holed as an apologist for not jumping on the bandwagon? For trying to inject some reason?

I don't really care if it is a production tool for you. This doesn't ruin the OS. Anyone who tries to convince me that it does is either being dishonest or is delusional.

But that's OK, you guys will likely whine enough for Apple to throw you a bone and shut you up. Meanwhile others like me will have moved on.

[mjankor]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

I never said I like stacks so much. I said that it's OK and that hierarchal folders aren't too great either.

And where did I apologize for Apple? Why is it that if I disagree with the whiners then I am an apologist? Is this how it is played? I get labeled and pigeon-holed as an apologist for not jumping on the bandwagon? For trying to inject some reason?

I don't really care if it is a production tool for you. This doesn't ruin the OS. Anyone who tries to convince me that it does is either being dishonest or is delusional.

But that's OK, you guys will likely whine enough for Apple to throw you a bone and shut you up. Meanwhile others like me will have moved on.

So you're trying to tell me, that replacing a feature in Tiger, that a lot of people made use of, with a similar feature in Leopard that looks prettier but is far worse in terms of usability is a good idea?

That sure sounds like a great injection of reason to me. Care to explain the thought process for all us irrational thinkers?

[CharlesS]

If something doesn't cause a problem for me, it doesn't cause a problem for anyone, because everyone else works exactly the same way that I do. If I didn't use a feature, then that feature is therefore worthless and anyone who did use and appreciate it is a whiny malcontent.

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

I get labeled and pigeon-holed as an apologist for not jumping on the bandwagon?

No, you get labeled as a douche for referring to people with legitimate complaints as "whiners."

[Big Mac]

I suggest everyone pile into this Apple Support thread before it gets closed:

Apple - Support - Discussions - Applications Folder in Dock - Icon ...

[Elly]

Besides using folders in the dock to navigate through a hierarchy, I use them in a way I heard a small mention of here, and is not satisfied by app launcher alternatives.

I use a folder containing project folders, where I right click then choose one to open in list view as that folder is previously arranged.

This is huge for my workflow, and I've written Apple feedback, as I encourage everyone on this thread to do. http://www.apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

[Stelex]

I'm going to try something with Dock, but I am unable to save changes in /system/library/core services/dock I have tried with cmnd-I and changed permissions there,but still no go. Any idea how Ican get access to this ? Thanks

[tuqqer]

Agreed. I've yet to find anyone that prefers Stacks over the Tiger version.

I look forward to someone writing a hack that brings the Dock back to Tiger.

[Hal Itosis]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Good posts Toyin, you're right on the mark.
Hierarchal folders are only really useful (IMO) if you are only going one or two levels deep.
Anything more and they are not worth a crap. How '90's indeed.

 
Oh I see. So you're saying:
-> if we need to go more than 2 levels deep <-
then *Stacks* offers superior navigation. :

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by tuqqer 

Agreed. I've yet to find anyone that prefers Stacks over the Tiger version.

Hi.

[Kees]

Originally Posted by tuqqer 

Agreed. I've yet to find anyone that prefers Stacks over the Tiger version.

I look forward to someone writing a hack that brings the Dock back to Tiger.

I do, because the content pops up much quicker.

Way back in the OS 9 days, I was a heavy BeHiearchic user, but with the advent of OS X and column view I quickly left that behind.
I too am very organized, and have my active projects in the side-bar I navigate column view with the keyboard (arrow keys + typing first few letters of file name) I much prefer it that way, because I can quickly manipulate data while browsing, something a hierarchical menu won't let you do.
Now that Leopard lets me sort columns by date modified, it'll be even quicker.
I also like the fact that I can drag something from the downloads stack straight into the trash or one of my project folders (spring-loaded folders and column view are the best...)
I'm not saying stacks can't be improved, because they should. The transparent background makes it difficult to read, expanded stacks take up way more space than they should, and I would like to be able to right-click on items in there, but the fact that I can get at the stuff in there quicker than before is a big plus for me.

[Geobunny]

Originally Posted by Kees 

I also like the fact that I can drag something from the downloads stack straight into the trash

Wow! You've just brought up a major UI inconsistency here which I hadn't noticed before. If you drag something from the Dock to the trash all it does is remove the icon from the Dock. That's fine, that's how it has worked for years. If, however, you open a stack and drag an icon from there to the trash it actually removes it from the folder?! That can only end in tears for people who don't routinely check the trash before emptying.

Sorry folks, but now I really have to ask WTF Apple?

[kman42]

I came here looking to see if there really was no way to view hierarchical folders with Stacks, and it appears I'm somewhat late to the party. I do find this really annoying as it was my primary means of getting to Applications/Utilities. I'll try using Spotlights app launching abilities and see if that works for me. Spotlight is WAY faster now.

kman

[jasonsRX7]

Originally Posted by kman42 

I'll try using Spotlights app launching abilities and see if that works for me. Spotlight is WAY faster now.

Spotlight IS a lot faster, but it still can't hold a candle to Quicksilver.