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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > We're all anti-Semites.

We're all anti-Semites.
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Spheric Harlot
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Nov 24, 2003, 11:47 AM
 
Yes, all of Europe is a festering pool of anti-Semitism.

Because Scharon says so.

Background: There was a Europe-wide poll in which 59% cited Israel as the greatest danger to World Peace.

The good and decent (since unconvicted) war-criminal Ariel has now gone on record as accusing all of Europe of "collective anti-Semitism".

http://www.tagesschau.de/aktuell/mel...F1_BAB,00.html
Link in German, couldn't find the story on BBC, so you'll have to babelfish it for now:
http://babelfish.altavista.com/

Yes, folks, as in the small microcosm of MacNN, thus it is in the real world:

It is impossible to voice concerns or criticism over assholes if those assholes coincidentally happen to be Jewish.

True equality, apparently, does not include the right to equal criticism.

FWIW, we're anti-American and anti-Arab, and anti-slanteyes, too. Yep, that's Europe for ya.

[Edit: I should note that babelfish does a pretty good job at translation, but the translated link won't accept referrals.

A relevant passage:
Scharon rejected it to draw a dividing line between criticism on the State of Israel and anti-Semitic expressions. "we talk about collective Antisemitismus. The State of Israel is a Jewish state and afterwards arranges itself also the attitude opposite Israel."]

-s*
( Last edited by Spheric Harlot; Nov 24, 2003 at 12:00 PM. )
     
lokjah
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Nov 24, 2003, 12:10 PM
 
im not sure what true equality has to do with criticism.

the truth needs no defense.



løk
iron sharpens iron
     
Spheric Harlot  (op)
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Nov 24, 2003, 12:20 PM
 
Originally posted by lokjah:
im not sure what true equality has to do with criticism.

the truth needs no defense.
The idea that assholes who happen to be Jewish are exempt from criticism because they can invariably pull the "You're an anti-Semite" card to *very* effectively destroy any critics' credibility - or at least drive any discussion into pointless debate about anti-Semitism as a phenomenon - is, in effect, nothing other than passive-aggressive racism.

IMHO.

-s*
     
theolein
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Nov 24, 2003, 12:27 PM
 
Yup, terrible! My Jewish father must be turning over in his grave, seeing what an anti-semite I've become.

I wouldn't place too much value on what Sharon or Israeli officialdom say on Europe, since they seem to do it with monotonous regularity. I remember last year after the Jenin raids, when much of the world was up in arms over what Israel was allegedly doing there, and Germany decided to stop the supply of tank parts to Israel. It took all of 1 hour and the Israeli media was doing the old "Germans are all a bunch of Nazi holocaust supporters" trip, once again, as they have done every single time Germany has made one critical remark of Israel in the past.

I can understand German politicians getting damn frustrated with that, even if I think the occasional German attempts to get rid of the burden of guilt by way of twisted logic are somewhat ludicrous. (Ref. There was a German local politician recently who posted an essay on his website trying to explain that many jews had been involved in the mass executions of White Russians during the Russian revolution in 1917 and were therefore also guilty of persecution. The guy got kicked out of office because of that essay, but I don't think we've heard the last of that)

I suppose most nations have and need their national prejudices. I know a lot of Serbs and you will not find one, truly not one, that will accept or admit that what happened in Kosovo was any of their fault. If you want a nation that truly hates the USA and Nato, you don't have to go to some Arab backwater, Serbia will do. They have all manner of excuses and twisted conspiracies to explain the 77 day bombing of Serbia and Kosovo in 1999. There was even a film about some Bosnian Serbs trying to blow up the UN with a nuclear weapon starring Clooney and Kidman, so perhaps the US was worried that some of them would actually do something like that, a sort of 1914 revisited.

The last Israeli I met was recently in the course I did, and the guy sat in a room full of Swiss people making utterly tasteless jokes about how the whole Swiss nation should spend some time in a psychiatric institution. I just thought that, considering that the course was about getting jobs, his chances of getting one with his attitude were pretty slim. So, are all israelis like that? No, thank god, but you can imagine what a prejudiced anti-semite could do with such wonderful PR.

Sometimes, I think it is truly a miracle that mankind even made it this far.
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NYCFarmboy
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Nov 24, 2003, 12:54 PM
 
Being an anti-semite is being anti-human.
     
voodoo
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Nov 24, 2003, 01:06 PM
 
Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
Being an anti-semite is being anti-human.
woooooooosh!

that was the sound of THE POINT going WAY over your head.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
theolein
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Nov 24, 2003, 01:26 PM
 
Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
Being an anti-semite is being anti-human.
I presume you meant that in the vein of being against any race, creed or religion is being against humanity, which would be certainly noble, if you meant it that way.

The simple logic of your sentence though, makes it sound as anti-semite = anti-human therefore semite = human. The obvious question would then be, what about the rest of us? black = human? or moslem = human? or christian = human?
weird wabbit
     
Spheric Harlot  (op)
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Nov 24, 2003, 01:48 PM
 
Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
Being an anti-semite is being anti-human.
...and being a beef sausage is being meat.

Relevance?
     
daimoni
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Nov 24, 2003, 01:57 PM
 
.
( Last edited by daimoni; Sep 7, 2004 at 07:22 PM. )
     
Spheric Harlot  (op)
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Nov 24, 2003, 02:01 PM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
I wouldn't place too much value on what Sharon or Israeli officialdom say on Europe, since they seem to do it with monotonous regularity. I remember last year after the Jenin raids, when much of the world was up in arms over what Israel was allegedly doing there, and Germany decided to stop the supply of tank parts to Israel.
It being the head of state who made these remarks is enough to make it somewhat of an outrage, though.

Not to mention front-page news.

Ref. There was a German local politician recently who posted an essay on his website trying to explain that many jews had been involved in the mass executions of White Russians during the Russian revolution in 1917 and were therefore also guilty of persecution. The guy got kicked out of office because of that essay, but I don't think we've heard the last of that
It was a little more touchy than that. He talked of "Opfervolk" and "Tätervolk" (a victimized people and a victimizing people), and how Germans were not just a "Tätervolk" but also victims of horrific atrocities during the bomb war, and how Jews - as a people - were also "Tätervolk" due to their involvement in the October Revolution.

That hit uncomfortably close to home, was tactless at best, and drew applause from the wrong people, including a general, who was then immediately sacked.

-s*
     
Spheric Harlot  (op)
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Nov 24, 2003, 02:06 PM
 
Originally posted by daimoni:
Hold on a sec.

Since when have such tactics been *very* effective, or credible for that matter?

I'd just tell people like that to **** off.
Just see what happens every time Zimphire or Big Mac or whoever labels someone an "anti-Semite" on these boards.

The same thing happens in German politics all the time, where sensitivities are so touchy that often enough, the mere accusation ends most reasonable discussion.

-s*
     
BRussell
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Nov 24, 2003, 02:22 PM
 
In related news, the EU has stopped a report from coming out that detailed anti-semitism in Europe, even though they commissioned the report. Turns out they didn't like the findings.
The research was ordered in response to fears that anti-Semitism was on the rise across Europe - and apparently confirmed the truth of the claims. However, the centre - which is the EU's official racism watchdog - was unnerved by its results.
     
voodoo
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Nov 24, 2003, 03:25 PM
 
Sharon should tread carefully. If he equates anti semitism (hatred of Jews) with hating his ugly guts then he'll find far more anti semites than actually exist.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
Wiskedjak
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Nov 24, 2003, 03:40 PM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
The idea that assholes who happen to be Jewish are exempt from criticism because they can invariably pull the "You're an anti-Semite" card to *very* effectively destroy any critics' credibility -
The "anti-Semite" card is getting harder to pull.
     
eklipse
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Nov 24, 2003, 03:54 PM
 
Not anti-Semitic, just anti-Sharonic.

     
The Ayatollah
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Nov 24, 2003, 04:00 PM
 
Regardless of Sharon's comments, it is widely accepted that Europe is by and large anti-semitic and anti-immigrant (non-white, non-European immigrants).

You, spheric, need to stop and smell the extremist daisies. The anti-immigrant, anti-semitic groups in Europe have wide undercurrent acceptance among the populace, even if you don't swing that way yourself.

Life in a theocracy is all good for nobody.
My mullahs, we da last ones left.
     
einmakom
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Nov 24, 2003, 04:08 PM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:
In related news, the EU has stopped a report from coming out that detailed anti-semitism in Europe, even though they commissioned the report. Turns out they didn't like the findings.
This deserves re-emphasis. Too many posters of this board would like to believe that such a problem doesn't even exist.

Indeed, one poster in this thread had to resort to bringing up the username BigMac, who hasn't posted here in nearly a year.

Most of us will see the footage on television of the bombings of synagogues in Turkey, the latest anti-Semitic outrages in France, or even read about the snubs of Israeli scholars in Britain and cluck sympathetically.

We will see pictures of terror attacks in Israel and read the stories of the victims' suffering with appropriate horror.

Some of will even hear about the hate for Jews and Israel that is being promulgated in the Arab and Muslim world, and shake our heads in dismay. We will wonder how so many could allow themselves to be diverted from the serious problems created by their own undemocratic governments by the drumbeat of hate against Jews.

But then we turn away, and sink complacently back into our own lives without wondering what any of this means for us. The alarm bells about worldwide anti-Semitism should be sounding loud and clear.

It's time to put these events in some coherent perspective. Far from isolated examples of extremism, the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe is part of the same problem as the nonstop incitement against Jews in the Arab world. Just as Nazi propaganda led to the violence of the Holocaust, the current wave of anti-Jewish violence is direct result of incitement that has spread from Arab countries to European capitals. The delegitimization of Israel has spread from the back alleys of Cairo to the boulevards of Paris and Brussels. And the result is a rise in attacks on anything that bears the label "Jew."

There are those who prefer to believe that the calumnies against Jews and the State of Israel are merely the byproduct of incorrect policies. These rationalizers of anti-Semitism, such as New York Times columnist Paul Krugman and billionaire financier George Soros, prefer to think that it is all the fault of the current government of Israel and the Bush administration.

But this point of view gets it backward.

Earlier this year Beate Winkler, the director of the EUMC, said that anti-Semitism was on the rise across Europe and was now happening "on a large scale" in France, Germany, Sweden and the Netherlands. The French president, Jacques Chirac, called a cabinet meeting last week to discuss attacks on synagogues and schools in France.

Ms Winkler said that the study was rejected as it was considered as being unrepresentative because the period it covered - May and June 2002 - was too short to reach a full conclusion. Instead the EUMC will use it as part of another survey next year.
Yet, if the period it covered included acts on a large scale, it seems an admission to the problem is in order. Instead, the report was scuttled. It seems Sharon has simply announced the truth that no one wants to hear.

Blaming the messenger instead of admitting the problem helps no one.
     
eklipse
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Nov 24, 2003, 04:19 PM
 
Perhaps Judaism has the same PR problem Islam supposedly has.

Perhaps if more Jews were to speak out against the acts of terrorism committed in the name of a Jewish state, people wouldn't blame them so much.
     
einmakom
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Nov 24, 2003, 04:30 PM
 
So, you want to deny the events in the EU's own report that show Europe to be widely anti-semitic?

PR Problem, huh? You couch your words so that Islam 'supposedly' has a PR problem to show that you don't believe it does, but suggest that Judaism clearly does. I think you have what is known as a 'reality gap.'

The same sources of hate for Jews are creating the abuse of America that causes too many in the Muslim world to cheer events such as the Sept. 11 terror attacks. Even more importantly, we need to realize that this war on Jews is not separate from the terrorist war against America that is symbolized by those attacks. The anger at Bush and Sharon stems not from their supposed "aggression" against Muslims, but from the fact that both have come to symbolize resistance against the terror that world produced.

As much as some in this country would like to pretend that we can fight Al Qaeda without also confronting those who would destroy Israel, the truth is, that is impossible. So, too, is it impossible for us to separate the rise of anti-Semitism from the hate bubbling up against America.

In the United States, we currently have a government that is, in contrast to our "allies" in Europe, not interested in appeasing an ideology of hate.

You don't have to agree with everything U.S. President George W. Bush or Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon stand for to understand that the war on terror that they are both waging is essential to our survival. The forces responsible for the terror of 9/11, the attacks in Turkey, in Paris and, yes, on the streets of Jerusalem, are, for all intents and purposes, one and the same. And if a lack of resolution on the part of America ever leads to new triumphs for the forces of terrorism, then all our lives will truly be in jeopardy.
     
eklipse
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Nov 24, 2003, 04:40 PM
 
Originally posted by einmakom:
So, you want to deny the events in the EU's own report that show Europe to be widely anti-semitic?
I denied nothing.
PR Problem, huh? You couch your words so that Islam 'supposedly' has a PR problem to show that you don't believe it does, but suggest that Judaism clearly does. I think you have what is known as a 'reality gap.'
I said 'perhaps'. Why so touchy?
You don't have to agree with everything U.S. President George W. Bush or Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon stand for to understand that the war on terror that they are both waging is essential to our survival.


Thanks for that - that was quite funny.
     
theolein
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Nov 24, 2003, 05:13 PM
 
Originally posted by einmakom:
...
Some of will even hear about the hate for Jews and Israel that is being promulgated in the Arab and Muslim world, and shake our heads in dismay. We will wonder how so many could allow themselves to be diverted from the serious problems created by their own undemocratic governments by the drumbeat of hate against Jews.

...

It's time to put these events in some coherent perspective. Far from isolated examples of extremism, the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe is part of the same problem as the nonstop incitement against Jews in the Arab world. Just as Nazi propaganda led to the violence of the Holocaust, the current wave of anti-Jewish violence is direct result of incitement that has spread from Arab countries to European capitals. The delegitimization of Israel has spread from the back alleys of Cairo to the boulevards of Paris and Brussels. And the result is a rise in attacks on anything that bears the label "Jew."

There are those who prefer to believe that the calumnies against Jews and the State of Israel are merely the byproduct of incorrect policies. These rationalizers of anti-Semitism, such as New York Times columnist Paul Krugman and billionaire financier George Soros, prefer to think that it is all the fault of the current government of Israel and the Bush administration.

...

Blaming the messenger instead of admitting the problem helps no one.
I appreciate the angst and feelings of persecution that Jews have. I had a Jewish father and grew up with books on the Holocaust and the vague feeling that Israel was somehow the good guy.

Nowadays I don't see it that simply any more.

I personally think your idea of rising anti-semitism across europe is over hysterical and perhaps somewhat typical. Is it so difficult to understand that many people simply feel that Israel is not exactly being constructive in its dealings with it neighbours and the palestinians. This doesn't mean that hatred of Israel and the Jews isn't endemic in the Arab press and that it is a convenient valve for the very undemocratic failings of their own societies.

But I'll say this: Comments like Sharon's accusing Europeans collectively of anti-Semitism is as much an insult as anything else and is almost guaranteed to raise tensions. If his intentions are making new enemies, he's doing a fantastic job.

I am getting almost as sick of Jews pontificating about persecution as an excuse to do any fucking thing they want to as I am of Moslems blaming the West for everything from back pain to poverty.

Sometimes I get so tired of this crap that I think that it would be best just to blow the fucking lot of them to hell, from Marakesh via Tel Aviv to Jakarta.

That's an expression of the frustration I feel when I see and read all the venom that manages to raise its ugly head in the name of religions.
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Wiskedjak
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Nov 24, 2003, 05:32 PM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
I appreciate the angst and feelings of persecution that Jews have.
I could appreciate the angst and feelings of persecution that Jews have if they weren't causing angst and persecuting others.
     
lil'babykitten
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Nov 24, 2003, 05:33 PM
 
Originally posted by einmakom:
The same sources of hate for Jews are creating the abuse of America that causes too many in the Muslim world to cheer events such as the Sept. 11 terror attacks.
Excuse me? 'too many in the muslim world'? wtf are you talking about? I don't recall any Muslims cheering 9/11-extremists groups maybe but there is a difference.
Funny how you managed to turn this around to an anti-muslim perspective.

Originally posted by einmakom:
The anger at Bush and Sharon stems not from their supposed "aggression" against Muslims, but from the fact that both have come to symbolize resistance against the terror that world produced.
You see that stance right there is another source of the worlds problems. Whilst it is not of your opinion that Bush and Sharon have been aggressive toward Muslims in general, the fact is many Muslims believe the opposite. What does anyone do about that? nothing accept deny it, which doesn't really solve the problem.

Originally posted by einmakom:
And if a lack of resolution on the part of America ever leads to new triumphs for the forces of terrorism, then all our lives will truly be in jeopardy.
-good one.

Lets see now, a rise in anti-Semitism-sad but not surprising. See the earlier trend was anti-muslim why? because after 9/11 the ignorant shouted 'Blame the Muslims' and it took hold. Now after the Israel-Palestine conflict has grabbed so many headlines, the ignorant shout 'Blame the Jews' and that too is taking hold. Nothing new there.

Noticing a problem and then commenting on how outrageous it is doesn't actually help the situation. The recent sentiments coming out are along the lines of 'Europe is anti-Semitic'-now this is BS to begin with, what a gross, ignorant and stupid generalisation. All this does is fuel more hatred.

We need a solution. This is not the sort of thing that will EVER be solved with the use of violent action. One thing I'm pretty sure of however is that if the 'War on Terror' continues along the lines it has been, it's going to be a long time before this intense religious hatred dies down and an even longer time before we are free from terrorism.
     
BRussell
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Nov 24, 2003, 05:50 PM
 
Originally posted by eklipse:
Perhaps if more Jews were to speak out against the acts of terrorism committed in the name of a Jewish state, people wouldn't blame them so much.
You're joking? Many Jews, at least in the US, are among the biggest critics of Israeli policies. And in Israel itself, they have something called a democracy - yeah, you may not have heard of it if you look at the Middle East as a whole.

Of course, Europeans in general don't have much exposure to Jews, largely because they murdered most of them 60 years ago.

But anti-Semitism? Not in Europe. No way!
     
einmakom
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Nov 24, 2003, 05:51 PM
 
Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Excuse me? 'too many in the muslim world'? wtf are you talking about? I don't recall any Muslims cheering 9/11-extremists groups maybe but there is a difference.
Funny how you managed to turn this around to an anti-muslim perspective.


Then you weren't paying attention. There were people in the streets cheering. These are the same people who coincidentally were depressed that Saddam Hussein fell so quickly. Will you attempt again to tell me that they just don't exist? Willful ignorance on your part if you do.

Lets see now, a rise in anti-Semitism-sad but not surprising.

You admit here that it's true.

The recent sentiments coming out are along the lines of 'Europe is anti-Semitic'-now this is BS to begin with, what a gross, ignorant and stupid generalisation. All this does is fuel more hatred.
Then you deny the truth.

Then you want a solution- but to have a solution you first must admit you have a problem.

The EU's own report acknowledges the problem, yet you deny it willfully.
     
BRussell
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Nov 24, 2003, 05:53 PM
 
Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Excuse me? 'too many in the muslim world'? wtf are you talking about? I don't recall any Muslims cheering 9/11-extremists groups maybe but there is a difference.
Then you weren't looking. Palestinians cheered in the streets, and it was broadcast on CNN before the Palestinian authority censored it.

And guess what name is now the most popular for male babies in some parts of the Muslim world?
     
petehammer
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Nov 24, 2003, 05:58 PM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:
And guess what name is now the most popular for male babies in some parts of the Muslim world?
Tom?
If after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say ["You're right, we were wrong -- good job"] -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush."
-moki, 04/16/03 (Props to Spheric Harlot)
     
lil'babykitten
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Nov 24, 2003, 06:04 PM
 
Originally posted by einmakom:
Then you weren't paying attention. There were people in the streets cheering.
Originally posted by BRussell:
Then you weren't looking. Palestinians cheered in the streets, and it was broadcast on CNN before the Palestinian authority censored it.
I am so sick of hearing this BS.
I remember CNN display pictures of Palestinians cheering in the streets with sweets and the rest of it. It was later revealed that those celebrations had absolutely no connections with 9/11-they were celebrating the festival of Eid from months before.
     
lil'babykitten
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Nov 24, 2003, 06:09 PM
 
Originally posted by einmakom:
Then you deny the truth.
No. If you seriously believe that EUROPE AS A WHOLE-as in all Europeans- are anti-semitic, then you really are ignorant.

Better nuke Europe, just to be safe.
     
BRussell
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Nov 24, 2003, 06:13 PM
 
Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
I am so sick of hearing this BS.
I remember CNN display pictures of Palestinians cheering in the streets with sweets and the rest of it. It was later revealed that those celebrations had absolutely no connections with 9/11-they were celebrating the festival of Eid from months before.
Nope. See here for the facts. The footage was exactly what it appeared to be, not some conspiracy put together by CNN and Reuters moments after the attacks took place to make Palestinians falsely look like they hate the US.
     
Wiskedjak
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Nov 24, 2003, 06:17 PM
 
Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
I am so sick of hearing this BS.
I remember CNN display pictures of Palestinians cheering in the streets with sweets and the rest of it. It was later revealed that those celebrations had absolutely no connections with 9/11-they were celebrating the festival of Eid from months before.
But, it was on CNN! It must be true! I mean, they wouldn't twist the news just for ratings, would they?
     
theolein
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Nov 24, 2003, 06:23 PM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:
You're joking? Many Jews, at least in the US, are among the biggest critics of Israeli policies. And in Israel itself, they have something called a democracy - yeah, you may not have heard of it if you look at the Middle East as a whole.

Of course, Europeans in general don't have much exposure to Jews, largely because they murdered most of them 60 years ago.

But anti-Semitism? Not in Europe. No way!
Como? Now all Europeans were Nazis 60 years ago? That doesn't sound more like a US prejudice to you?

Sigh...

What do you want to hear? That all Europeans hate the Jews and would love to see the the rest of them burning in ovens? Would that make you feel better? Would it then satisfy your prejudices about "Europeans" (which ones of course you don't say)

But wait, what about the American Indians? Why are all you Americans so happy and quiet about the injustices done to them that continue to this day? Do a google about the lawsuit against the US government for abusing native American trust funds.

OK, you don't think it's the same. I give up. We're all racist Jew haters here in Europe, and we haven't finished yet with our Aryan mission. Not only that but we're all supporters of Osama's football club as well. There's a poster of Osama in all European homes just next to the one of Hitler and there's a little Swastika on each door in place of a Mezuzah and we now have Hakenkreuz shaped candleholders and got rid of our Menorahs. In addition to that the Horst Wessel song is now top of the pops and the latest fashion for men is to wear small bookmaker moustaches when we go to party rallies. And I'm sorry to inform you of this but in future you're going to have to refer to me and Spheric by our ranks, which means he gets to be Oberscharführer and I get to be Sturmbahnführer, and we'd appreciate proper salutes as well, thank you.

Heil Osama etc,

Your truly
SS Sturmbahnführer Theolein

Edit to add: I forgot to mention that all we Europeans are over 6 feet tall, have blond hair and blue eyes and look good in black uniforms and jack boots.

P.S. I actually had no idea that people still believed that hoax about the 9/11 tapes being old material. The Snopes article is good except for one little thing: It claims that Israel is 6 time zones away from New York. It isn't, it's 7 time zones away.
( Last edited by theolein; Nov 24, 2003 at 06:45 PM. )
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voodoo
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Nov 24, 2003, 06:23 PM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:
You're joking? Many Jews, at least in the US, are among the biggest critics of Israeli policies. And in Israel itself, they have something called a democracy - yeah, you may not have heard of it if you look at the Middle East as a whole.

Of course, Europeans in general don't have much exposure to Jews, largely because they murdered most of them 60 years ago.

But anti-Semitism? Not in Europe. No way!
You sir are an asshole.
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Demonhood
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Nov 24, 2003, 06:33 PM
 
Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
I am so sick of hearing this BS.
I remember CNN display pictures of Palestinians cheering in the streets with sweets and the rest of it. It was later revealed that those celebrations had absolutely no connections with 9/11-they were celebrating the festival of Eid from months before.
ahem

voodoo, keep it civil or don't post. that goes for the rest of you folks too.
     
thunderous_funker
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Nov 24, 2003, 06:49 PM
 
Holy Sweeping Generalizations, Batman!!!

Some clarification might be in order:

Sharon, Israel, IDF, Security Fence, Transfer and State Policy are not synonyms of "Jew".

Statistics on "anti-semitism" in Europe are probably about as meaningful as statistics on "anti-americanism".

Not only that, but the more supporters of Israel insist on blurring the distinctions between Jews, Israelis and State Policy, the more they create the very problem they wish to solve. If Israel's supporters insist on telling me that right thinking Jews support Sharon and Jews that don't are "self-hating", the more I am tempted to resent all of them rather than merely the very few who actually deserve my scorn.

Oh, and here is the perfunctory comment on the simple fact that Jews and Semites are also not synonyms. Not all Semites are Jews, and not all Jews are Semites.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
eklipse
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Nov 24, 2003, 06:56 PM
 
Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
I could appreciate the angst and feelings of persecution that Jews have if they weren't causing angst and persecuting others.
This is slightly misleading.

Israel accounts for an approximately 38% minority of the world's Jewish population - of that, an even smaller percentage can be considered engaged in actions against the Palestinian people or the politics that supports such actions.
     
eklipse
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Nov 24, 2003, 07:01 PM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:
You're joking?
Perhaps.
Many Jews, at least in the US, are among the biggest critics of Israeli policies. And in Israel itself, they have something called a democracy - yeah, you may not have heard of it if you look at the Middle East as a whole.
I don't remember seeing too many Rabbis condemning Israel's actions in the West Bank and Gaza strip.
     
BRussell
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Nov 24, 2003, 07:04 PM
 
Originally posted by theolein:
What do you want to hear? That all Europeans hate the Jews and would love to see the the rest of them burning in ovens? Would that make you feel better? Would it then satisfy your prejudices about "Europeans" (which ones of course you don't say)

But wait, what about the American Indians? Why are all you Americans so happy and quiet about the injustices done to them that continue to this day? Do a google about the lawsuit against the US government for abusing native American trust funds.
I live in an area heavy populated by Native Americans. The holocaust perpetrated on Native Americans is at the top of every discussion of relations between Indians and Whites. The concept of ethnic and inter-group conflict and discrimination and the historical atrocities committed against Native Americans and African Americans are widely discussed and there is a deep shame about it.

I know there is deep shame about the European treatment of Jews in the last century. Right? Or is there denial - "are you saying all Europeans did it?" Well, I didn't do anything to Africans or Native American here in the US, and not all Americans did those things either. And yet if someone brought up that despicable history, I certainly wouldn't deny that that could possibly play any role in contemporary US social relations.

If there is social conflict between Whites and Native Americans or African Americans in the US, that historical context is of course part of the discussion. If you denied it played a role or suggested it was irrelevant, you'd be out of mainstream American life.

What's happening in Europe seems different to me. When there is conflict between Jews and other Europeans, say, attacks on synagogues, it is said to be wrong, sure, but ultimately the result of Israeli policies, and any links to historical anti-semitism are strongly denied, even by European liberals. Perhaps especially by European liberals. This is very different from the US.

And if you bring up the holocaust, which, let's face it, is the very reason that anti-semitism is brought up, you're an asshole. How could traditional European anti-semitism possibly have anything whatsoever to do with current popular attitudes toward Jews and Israel. How ridiculous! Absurd!
     
lil'babykitten
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Nov 24, 2003, 07:07 PM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:
Nope. See here for the facts. The footage was exactly what it appeared to be, not some conspiracy put together by CNN and Reuters moments after the attacks took place to make Palestinians falsely look like they hate the US.
Ah ok, it appears you're right. Oh well if there are any nukes (and people) left after we're done with all those anti-semitic Europeans, better go after the Palestinians too.
Then I'm sure the world will be peaceful.
     
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Nov 24, 2003, 07:07 PM
 
Originally posted by eklipse:
I don't remember seeing too many Rabbis condemning Israel's actions in the West Bank and Gaza strip.
They're out there. Let's not forget there are some very very liberally minded Jewish Temples out there. A Temple not far from my house has a black lesbian Rabbi.

Sadly, when Jews speak out against Israel's politics, they are often branded "self-hating" by the same people who call goyim critics anti-semites.

It is not in the interest of those who fear anti-semitism to continue to blur the lines between faith, race and politics. In fact, it is fundamentally counter-productive to their supposed cause.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
lil'babykitten
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Nov 24, 2003, 07:09 PM
 
Originally posted by Demonhood:
ahem
Yeah-saw that the first time it was posted-thanks.
( Last edited by lil'babykitten; Nov 25, 2003 at 09:34 AM. )
     
BRussell
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Nov 24, 2003, 07:10 PM
 
Originally posted by eklipse:
Perhaps.

I don't remember seeing too many Rabbis condemning Israel's actions in the West Bank and Gaza strip.
Here's just one website of a Jewish group critical of current Israeli policies. There are tons of them. The link I provided also has links to other similar groups, including Jewish groups that are trying to rebuild Palestinian homes destroyed by the Israeli government, and a group devoted to Israelis who refuse to enter the Israeli military because of their policies toward Palestinians.
     
eklipse
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Nov 24, 2003, 07:15 PM
 
Re: Palestinians Celebrating on 9/11/2001

It's kind of understandable - seeing as though America supplies a good deal of the military hardware used against them on a regular basis by Israel.

Nevertheless, most of the reports I remember at the time said that the celebrations were isolated incidents that quickly evaporated once the seriousness of the event hit home.

The official Palestinian response was one of sympathy - even the official Iraqi (you know, those evil, murderous, bastards who like to eat American babies) response at the time was, I believe, one of sympathy.
     
voodoo
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Nov 24, 2003, 07:23 PM
 
Originally posted by Demonhood:

voodoo, keep it civil or don't post. that goes for the rest of you folks too.
I don't take it lightly when someone accuses my forefathers of participating in the systematic killing of Jews in WWII.

Not only is such an accusation tactless, a lie and an ignorant inflammatory remark but it is also a personal insult to all Europeans. It is a racist remark.
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BRussell
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Nov 24, 2003, 07:38 PM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
I don't take it lightly when someone accuses my forefathers of participating in the systematic killing of Jews in WWII.

Not only is such an accusation tactless, a lie and an ignorant inflammatory remark but it is also a personal insult to all Europeans. It is a racist remark.
I'm trying to imagine someone making an analogous remark - that Americans murdered Native Americans, or enslaved Africans, for example. Only the most extreme racist Americans would deny it or call it an ignorant inflammatory remark.

This is, to me, the basis of the problem. Europeans don't seem to me, at least from reading this board, to have come to terms with their anti-semitic past in the way that, for example, Americans have come to terms with our past. Maybe it's just too recent, and it will take a few more generations.
     
thunderous_funker
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Nov 24, 2003, 07:48 PM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:
This is, to me, the basis of the problem. Europeans don't seem to me, at least from reading this board, to have come to terms with their anti-semitic past in the way that, for example, Americans have come to terms with our past. Maybe it's just too recent, and it will take a few more generations.
I don't know about that. Seems to me a fair number of Americans are completely defensive about race issues and the legacy of slavery and genocide.

Consider the racial divide on issue such as AA or Reparations. Suddenly you hear a lot of "oh, just get over it already" from whites. We're still pretty far apart on some areas and it doesn't take much for the ugliness and acrimony to surface.

As for Native Americans, they are at least 50 years behind African Americans. Last I checked, there wasn't any sports franchises named Niggers with Little Black Sambo as a mascot. And don't get me started on land rights, and protection of antiquities and sacred cultural symbols.

Yes, many Europeans are stubborn about recognizing how quickly anti-Jewish sentiment seems to bubble to the surface over purely political issues, but I'm not sure I can honestly say Americans have room to lecture them on it.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
Spheric Harlot  (op)
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Nov 24, 2003, 08:02 PM
 
einmakom,

I mentioned Big Mac's name only because I'd remembered some encounters with him off the top of my head where I remembered finding him particularly offensive.

I'm sure, though, that I've seen him around in the other forums somewhere recently.

Originally posted by einmakom:
The anger at Bush and Sharon stems not from their supposed "aggression" against Muslims, but from the fact that both have come to symbolize resistance against the terror that world produced.
That is a sweep at best, and a real stretch that indicates that, no, Israel's PR department isn't nearly in as bad a shape as the Muslim world's.

You're getting an awful lot of anti-Israeli sentiment at the moment, and if you noticed, the USA placed second on that list, only six points behind.

Israel is, in the context of nation-to-nation exchange, primarily a country that is, in the eyes of many, deliberately pursuing a suicidal strategy, whose effects are being felt world-wide.

That those nutcases happen to be Jewish is only of secondary importance - as witnessed by the US being so close up due to similar reasons.

And Sharon's explicit refusal to separate attacks upon his state and politics and attacks upon Jews in general effectively makes any criticism by definition anti-Semitic.

That is criminal, but in keeping with - and reinforcing - the political opponents' decision to call a jihad, or holy war, and in keeping with George W. Bush's early talk of a "crusade" and God having told him to invade Iraq etc.

Even if this is what Sharon may personally believe, stating it in public is an outrage IMO.

-s*
     
Spheric Harlot  (op)
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Nov 24, 2003, 08:07 PM
 
[Edit: educated out by snopes.com]
( Last edited by Spheric Harlot; Nov 24, 2003 at 08:21 PM. )
     
Spheric Harlot  (op)
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Nov 24, 2003, 08:15 PM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:
And if you bring up the holocaust, which, let's face it, is the very reason that anti-semitism is brought up, you're an asshole.
Ahem.
Originally posted by BRussell:
Of course, Europeans in general don't have much exposure to Jews, largely because they murdered most of them 60 years ago.
"bringing up the holocaust"?

-s*
     
theolein
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Nov 24, 2003, 08:16 PM
 
Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
I don't know about that. Seems to me a fair number of Americans are completely defensive about race issues and the legacy of slavery and genocide.

Consider the racial divide on issue such as AA or Reparations. Suddenly you hear a lot of "oh, just get over it already" from whites. We're still pretty far apart on some areas and it doesn't take much for the ugliness and acrimony to surface.

As for Native Americans, they are at least 50 years behind African Americans. Last I checked, there wasn't any sports franchises named Niggers with Little Black Sambo as a mascot. And don't get me started on land rights, and protection of antiquities and sacred cultural symbols.

Yes, many Europeans are stubborn about recognizing how quickly anti-Jewish sentiment seems to bubble to the surface over purely political issues, but I'm not sure I can honestly say Americans have room to lecture them on it.
Thank you. You got my point.
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