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We're all anti-Semites. (Page 2)
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Spheric Harlot  (op)
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Nov 24, 2003, 08:28 PM
 
[argh.]
     
BRussell
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Nov 24, 2003, 08:45 PM
 
Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
I don't know about that. Seems to me a fair number of Americans are completely defensive about race issues and the legacy of slavery and genocide.

Consider the racial divide on issue such as AA or Reparations. Suddenly you hear a lot of "oh, just get over it already" from whites. We're still pretty far apart on some areas and it doesn't take much for the ugliness and acrimony to surface.

As for Native Americans, they are at least 50 years behind African Americans. Last I checked, there wasn't any sports franchises named Niggers with Little Black Sambo as a mascot. And don't get me started on land rights, and protection of antiquities and sacred cultural symbols.

Yes, many Europeans are stubborn about recognizing how quickly anti-Jewish sentiment seems to bubble to the surface over purely political issues, but I'm not sure I can honestly say Americans have room to lecture them on it.
I don't mean to make the US sound like a utopia for racial issues. But the US attitude towards black and native american history seems to me different than the European attitude towards European Jewish history. In the US, it's the reactionaries and the conservatives who would essentially deny the reality and relevance of the history of racism in America. In Europe, it appears pretty mainstream, even among the progressives, at least from reading these boards.

About Indians, I'm not sure they're behind blacks, but they're certainly in a different position. In many ways we've come closer to the kind of reparations that blacks sometimes talk about. For example, in my state, every Native American can attend college for free. It's not widely publicized - in fact many start to pay tuition before they are informed that they don't have to. But it's there. Or the tax-free status of reservations and their casinos. I live pretty close to a huge Indian reservation. It's actually horrible conditions, and most of them see they're better off just integrating and staying away from those places. But it's there, and it's land that was intended to be "given back" to make up for land that was stolen.
     
theolein
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Nov 24, 2003, 08:54 PM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:
I live in an area heavy populated by Native Americans. The holocaust perpetrated on Native Americans is at the top of every discussion of relations between Indians and Whites. The concept of ethnic and inter-group conflict and discrimination and the historical atrocities committed against Native Americans and African Americans are widely discussed and there is a deep shame about it.

I know there is deep shame about the European treatment of Jews in the last century. Right? Or is there denial - "are you saying all Europeans did it?" Well, I didn't do anything to Africans or Native American here in the US, and not all Americans did those things either. And yet if someone brought up that despicable history, I certainly wouldn't deny that that could possibly play any role in contemporary US social relations.

If there is social conflict between Whites and Native Americans or African Americans in the US, that historical context is of course part of the discussion. If you denied it played a role or suggested it was irrelevant, you'd be out of mainstream American life.

What's happening in Europe seems different to me. When there is conflict between Jews and other Europeans, say, attacks on synagogues, it is said to be wrong, sure, but ultimately the result of Israeli policies, and any links to historical anti-semitism are strongly denied, even by European liberals. Perhaps especially by European liberals. This is very different from the US.

And if you bring up the holocaust, which, let's face it, is the very reason that anti-semitism is brought up, you're an asshole. How could traditional European anti-semitism possibly have anything whatsoever to do with current popular attitudes toward Jews and Israel. How ridiculous! Absurd!
You almost got me off on a tirade that would probably have gotten me banned here. BUT...

WHOA!!!! STOP!!!!

I don't want to have the usual slugging match with you. Let's go through this point by point.

My overdone bizarro thing about the Nazis etc was done because you mentioned, yes you, BRussell, "Because they murdered most of them 60 years ago".


Do you understand what you were saying there? To me, and obviously to Voodoo as well, it sounded as if you were making a blanket statement that all Europeans in general were involved in the holocaust, which simply isn't true.

I obviously touched a sore spot by my mentioning native Americans, which I didn't really want to do, because this whole thing would go on forever. Can you now understand that people get defensive when accused of being party to historical mass murder, no matter in which ever country it was?

I know full well that Europe had a tradition of anti-Semitism, which went through some pretty dark times in history --Inquisition, pogroms in Russia-- and Jews were only emancipated from the traditional anti-Semitism in the 19th century, which doesn't mean that anti-Semitism doesn't live on.

I personally have no idea why there is such a tradition, but I think you have a very off base idea of what attitudes towards Jews are. You claim that from reading these boards that you can see some tradition of anti-Semitism or that Europeans have not come to terms with it. I think you've never been to Germany.

I have never seen a nation that has made such a nationally concerted effort to examine its history as Germany has done since WWII. It is the reason that almost anything to do with Nazism is forbidden in Germany. It is the reason that a German politician can make remarks about Jews being Bolshevik murderers and lose his job for it. There is of course, as in the case of political correctness, a rebound in that many Germans resent the burden of guilt that is thrust upon them in school and in the media.

No other countries in Europe made decade long payments of reparation to Jews and israel as germany did. In some other countries their participation was neatly forgotten until the media caught up with them as in the case of the Swiss Nazi Gold, Austria's Kurt Waldheim's Nazi past and Polish, Hungarian and Romanian genocide of Jewish villagers. You can watch programmes on this on any major TV channel in Europe. History broadcasts sometimes cover these attitudes and I've seen some good French ones on French Catholic persecution of both Protestants and jews.

I don't know what you expect Europeans to do with your statement, because it is as if you wish them to make some sort of collective admission of guilt for their centuries of bloody, religious and racist history. But there my point about Native Americans does stand. No Nation has ever been without its evil times in history and I'm sure that you know that.

I personally have no reason whatsoever to deny historical anti-Semitism in Europe. I'm not European for one (South Africa), and my father's family would have been killed if they had been outside Switzerland in WWII, since they were jewish. If you knew my posts or were willing to do a search you would know that I've written long essays about Apartheid and South Africa's persecution of other races. In short, no, I don't deny it and spent years and I literally mean years feeling guilty about being a white South African.

But that doesn't stop me from criticising Israel's policies (which many Israelis themselves also consider to be less than productive) or to think that the Palestinians have run themselves into the ground with their campaign of suicide bombing and to criticise them for it.

And I still think Ariel Sharon and Yassir Arafat should be left together in a boxing ring to sort out their differences and leave the rest of us alone.
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swrate
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Nov 24, 2003, 09:07 PM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Yes, all of Europe is a festering pool of anti-Semitism.

Because Scharon says so.

Background: There was a Europe-wide poll in which 59% cited Israel as the greatest danger to World Peace.

The good and decent (since unconvicted) war-criminal Ariel has now gone on record as accusing all of Europe of "collective anti-Semitism".

http://www.tagesschau.de/aktuell/mel...F1_BAB,00.html
Link in German, couldn't find the story on BBC, so you'll have to babelfish it for now:
http://babelfish.altavista.com/

Yes, folks, as in the small microcosm of MacNN, thus it is in the real world:

It is impossible to voice concerns or criticism over assholes if those assholes coincidentally happen to be Jewish.

True equality, apparently, does not include the right to equal criticism.

FWIW, we're anti-American and anti-Arab, and anti-slanteyes, too. Yep, that's Europe for ya.

[Edit: I should note that babelfish does a pretty good job at translation, but the translated link won't accept referrals.

A relevant passage:
Scharon rejected it to draw a dividing line between criticism on the State of Israel and anti-Semitic expressions. "we talk about collective Antisemitismus. The State of Israel is a Jewish state and afterwards arranges itself also the attitude opposite Israel."]

-s*

Well to me that passage means nothing. The translation mix....

Europe is not anti this and that and this

I was surprised to notice how many people in the US forums think Palestinians are taking the Land away from Israël.

In Europe and in the Middle-East people don’t generally see the situation under the same angle.

We are also closer to Turkey, Greece, Lebanon, Syria Israel, Egypt, etc...Georgie, Ukraine, Chechenia

Anti Semitic? Yes, I would think so, generally speaking...
It growed on Europe.
Or NO...
Its not really anti-semitic, its more anti Israeli governement,
anti-Likkoud.

They are many Jews well integrated in Europe, those I know are against Sharon's ideas.

We have lost lots of illusions.

Sadate, Begin, Isaac Rabin
Since years now, peace talks, wars, promises, murders….
Lebanon, Sinaï, Israel, Syria, Gazza strip,

still "paying" for the Holocaust, with money
and now, lives taken by terrorism.

Europe has always felt the instability, ot the Israëli/Palestinian issue and wished for peace in that area.
The boundaries were more then once not respected.
Israël/Egypt Israël/Lebanon Israël/Syria

now still: Israël/Palestinia

Wars and instability bring migrations to "Old-Europe"
Its not anti-Semitism, rather, a "sick of it all" attitude.
     
thunderous_funker
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Nov 24, 2003, 09:41 PM
 
It should also be noted that any rise in Europe's "anti-semitism" might be simply a measure of immigration, depending on how the data is collected and analyzed. Americans often don't appreciate just how diverse Europe can be. Not to mention that Europe now describes a much bigger geographic area than it once did.

A report might simply reflect the massive influx of Arabs or include rural expanses of the Balkans and former Eastern Bloc that were previously not considered part of Europe.

I have no doubt that anti-Semitism is alive and well amoung various demographics and regions in Europe, but then again, racism in America certainly has its hot pockets as well.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
Spheric Harlot  (op)
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Nov 24, 2003, 09:41 PM
 
Originally posted by swrate:
Anti Semitic? Yes, I would think so, generally speaking...
It growed on Europe.
Or NO...
Its not really anti-semitic, its more anti Israeli governement,
anti-Likkoud.
You're a little late to the party.

I hope you're enjoying the posts previous to yours.



-s*
     
BRussell
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Nov 24, 2003, 10:10 PM
 
theolein:
My overdone bizarro thing about the Nazis etc was done because you mentioned, yes you, BRussell, "Because they murdered most of them 60 years ago".

Do you understand what you were saying there? To me, and obviously to Voodoo as well, it sounded as if you were making a blanket statement that all Europeans in general were involved in the holocaust, which simply isn't true.
I appreciate your post, and yes I did say that, and I apologize for phrasing it in such a vulgar fashion. But why not phrase it bluntly? I have absolutely no problem with the statement: "Americans murdered and enslaved Africans." It is 100% true. I also have no problem stating that some of the current American attitudes towards blacks are vestiges of that racism.

I just wonder why it's so absurdly far-fetched to make an analogous claim about Europe, anti-semitism, and current European attitudes towards Jews and Israel.

I definitely don't think that disagreement with Israeli policies must necessarily = anti-semitism. That's ridiculous. But in the same way that I think most European and many Americans would believe that at least some of Americans' attitudes about race, affirmative action, immigration, etc., are based on racism rather than principled disagreement, isn't it possible that some of Europe's anti-Israeli attitudes are based on anti-semitism?

I'd like to ask you, theolein - if you read MacNN you see that there are many Americans who would be perceived as "anti-American" because of the way they criticize their own country and government. There are many anti-Iraq-war Americans here, for example. And lots of us love to Bush-Bash right along with the Europeans. This whole Political/War forum seems to be Europe + about half of Americans vs. the other half of Americans.

I honestly don't see the same type of self-criticism from Europeans. Maybe it just doesn't show up because we don't talk about the kind of issues in which it would show itself. Or maybe you just happen to agree with your current governments more than we do ours.

But this anti-semitism critique is an example where self-criticism could show itself. I'd expect at least some Europeans to say "yeah, there is this anti-semitic history and maybe it's showing itself again." But I don't ever, ever hear that from Europeans.

Why is that?
     
The Ayatollah
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Nov 24, 2003, 10:33 PM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:
"Americans murdered and enslaved Africans." It is 100% true.
and Europe continued to enslave them via colonialism nearly 100 years after the practice was ended in America.

Life in a theocracy is all good for nobody.
My mullahs, we da last ones left.
     
The Ayatollah
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Nov 24, 2003, 10:35 PM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:
I honestly don't see the same type of self-criticism from Europeans. Maybe it just doesn't show up because we don't talk about the kind of issues in which it would show itself. Or maybe you just happen to agree with your current governments more than we do ours.

But this anti-semitism critique is an example where self-criticism could show itself. I'd expect at least some Europeans to say "yeah, there is this anti-semitic history and maybe it's showing itself again." But I don't ever, ever hear that from Europeans.

Why is that?
because most Western Europeans are elitist snobs that believe they live in some 'Eurotopia' full of perfection and no social ills, when all they do is double-think themselves into an intellectual black hole.

Their poo doesn't stink, you know.

Life in a theocracy is all good for nobody.
My mullahs, we da last ones left.
     
theolein
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Nov 25, 2003, 02:31 AM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:
I appreciate your post, and yes I did say that, and I apologize for phrasing it in such a vulgar fashion. But why not phrase it bluntly? I have absolutely no problem with the statement: "Americans murdered and enslaved Africans." It is 100% true. I also have no problem stating that some of the current American attitudes towards blacks are vestiges of that racism.

I just wonder why it's so absurdly far-fetched to make an analogous claim about Europe, anti-semitism, and current European attitudes towards Jews and Israel.

I definitely don't think that disagreement with Israeli policies must necessarily = anti-semitism. That's ridiculous. But in the same way that I think most European and many Americans would believe that at least some of Americans' attitudes about race, affirmative action, immigration, etc., are based on racism rather than principled disagreement, isn't it possible that some of Europe's anti-Israeli attitudes are based on anti-semitism?

I'd like to ask you, theolein - if you read MacNN you see that there are many Americans who would be perceived as "anti-American" because of the way they criticize their own country and government. There are many anti-Iraq-war Americans here, for example. And lots of us love to Bush-Bash right along with the Europeans. This whole Political/War forum seems to be Europe + about half of Americans vs. the other half of Americans.

I honestly don't see the same type of self-criticism from Europeans. Maybe it just doesn't show up because we don't talk about the kind of issues in which it would show itself. Or maybe you just happen to agree with your current governments more than we do ours.

But this anti-semitism critique is an example where self-criticism could show itself. I'd expect at least some Europeans to say "yeah, there is this anti-semitic history and maybe it's showing itself again." But I don't ever, ever hear that from Europeans.

Why is that?
A ha! Now I get what you were aiming at. Yes, I would tend to agree with you there on both points with a little qualification.

I personally don't criticise America (why on earth should I do that in any case?) but the Bush administration's policies, which seem crazy to me on good days. I also, almost alone amongst the Europeans here, heavily criticise Chirac, Schröder, Blair, and various polices in Switzerland, France and Germany etc. There are others, such as Sherwin (he's from the UK I think) that are very pro war/Bush/Blair, but they're definitely in the minority. So you definitely have a point there. I must point out that I often point out that I disagree with some of the anti-Bush posters, because it sometimes seems to me as if they do it to criticise America as a whole with some stubborn anti-American motivation, and it is as pointless in actual discussion as Mad Dead Arab's rantings. (I think version is a good example of this, perhaps he and MDA should get together and meditate?)

And I agree on the anti-Semtism post in the way you explained it as well, except that I think that the German posters on this board would have difficulties with this because it is such a highly charged issue in Germany. But overall, it would be nice if the European crowd here could exhibit some more introspection. I must say though that perhaps threads on Europe will not get much notice on this board, being a mostly American one and mostly focused on American issues as it is, but I might just give it a try when some or other bat brained policy in this country drives me up the wall.
weird wabbit
     
Spheric Harlot  (op)
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Nov 25, 2003, 06:23 AM
 
Originally posted by The Ayatollah:
because most Western Europeans are elitist snobs that believe they live in some 'Eurotopia' full of perfection and no social ills, when all they do is double-think themselves into an intellectual black hole.

Their poo doesn't stink, you know.
Wow.

That's a pretty hefty bout of penis envy there, or...something.

Trust me, we tend to know about Europe's downsides.

-s*
     
nas t. ho
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Nov 25, 2003, 06:41 AM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Yes, all of Europe is a festering pool of anti-Semitism.
hmmm...i have noticed quite a few people, even some of my friends having "anti-jewish" sentiments here in germany. but for all of them it is precisely because the "anti semite" and historical "guilt" card has been played over and over again, as if "jewish" people had a special immunity from criticism, due to germany's previous history. but their attitudes have absoutely nothing to do with "anti-semitism".

i personally think its all a bunch of garbage. sharon is a fascist "warcriminal". just like bush and the rest of his clownparade.

i have quite a few jewish friends here, and i have told them what i think about sharon, paul spiegel and "paolo pinkel" (german jews who have been in the press lately). they're a bunch of pretentious fvckwads without a single clue of what young europeans feel about jews. all in all they were okay with what i had to say.
     
voodoo
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Nov 25, 2003, 06:59 AM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:
I just wonder why it's so absurdly far-fetched to make an analogous claim about Europe, anti-semitism, and current European attitudes towards Jews and Israel.

(snip)

But this anti-semitism critique is an example where self-criticism could show itself. I'd expect at least some Europeans to say "yeah, there is this anti-semitic history and maybe it's showing itself again." But I don't ever, ever hear that from Europeans.

Why is that?
Because Europeans are not and WERE not ONE people. Europe is NOT one NATION. There are more countries in Europe today than in Africa. That is a lot of different countries, each independant from eachother. Generalizing about America is bad enough, but you can talk about American policies and politics in a general way. You have ONE president and ONE government in a PERMANENT union of states. That is a Major difference. Europe is a CONTINENT. Not a country. You don't generalize Asia or Africa like you generalize Europe. Frankly you make yourself look very foolish indeed BRussell.

Where does Europe begin BRussell? Where does Europe end? Is Russia a part of Europe? How about Israel? How about Iceland? How about Turkey? How about Georgia? Is the EU Europe? WTF are you talking about when you talk about Europe? The continent? The countries? The culture? What?

Did the British kill their Jews? Did the Norwegians build concentration camps? No? They're Yurpeans BRussell.

I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
einmakom
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Nov 25, 2003, 08:43 AM
 
Did the British as recently as last year have Mona Baker use her academic position for her anti-semitism?

When Professor Mona Baker of the University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology dismissed two Israeli academics from the editorial board of two academic journals, The Translator andTranslation Studies Abstracts, on the sole grounds that they were Israeli, not a peep of protest was heard from British academics, though if she had dismissed the academics on the grounds that they were Syrian, Rwandan Hutu, or Muslim, a great fuss would have ensued. Professor Baker (born and educated in Egypt) said she thought she was only doing what many British academics would have done in the circumstances.
Did a young Israeli scientist who served in the IDF as all Israelis are bound to do by law receive this letter?

Dear Amit Duvshani,
Thank you for contacting me, but I don't think this would work. I have a huge problem with the way that the Israelis take the moral high ground from their appalling treatment in the Holocaust, and then inflict gross human rights abuses on the Palestinians because the (Palestinians) wish to live in their own country. I am sure that you are perfectly nice at a personal level, but no way would I take on somebody who had served in the Israeli army. As you may be aware, I am not the only UK scientist with these views but I'm sure you will find another suitable lab if you look around.
Yours sincerely
Andrew Wilkie
Nuffield Professor of Pathology,
Weatherall Institute of Molecular Medicine,
The John Radcliffe,
Headington,
Oxford OX3 9DS,
UK.


Tel (44)-1865-222619
Fax (44)-1865-222500
How nice of him to concede the "appalling treatment of the Holocaust", even as he turns the phrase into a condemnation of Jews as a whole. He is however, happy to swallow the line of the Palestinians, hook line and sinker, nevermind that he's refusing the Israeli based on his having complied with the rule of law.

And this one is truly a gem:
Dr Oren Yiftachel, a left-wing Israeli academic at Ben Gurion University, complained that an article he had co-authored with a Palestinian was initially rejected by the respected British journal Political Geography. He said it was returned to him unopened with a note stating that Political Geography could not accept a submission from Israel.

Mr Yiftachel said that, after months of negotiation, the article is to be published but only after he agreed to make substantial revisions, including making a comparison between his homeland and apartheid South Africa.
So don't tell me that Britain is free from anti-semitism, or that if Britain has anti-semitism, that it is confined to a small set of low-lifes; It is present in respected journals and academic institutions.
     
Spheric Harlot  (op)
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Nov 25, 2003, 09:12 AM
 
Originally posted by einmakom:
Did the British as recently as last year have Mona Baker use her academic position for her anti-semitism?



Did a young Israeli scientist who served in the IDF as all Israelis are bound to do by law receive this letter?



How nice of him to concede the "appalling treatment of the Holocaust", even as he turns the phrase into a condemnation of Jews as a whole. He is however, happy to swallow the line of the Palestinians, hook line and sinker, nevermind that he's refusing the Israeli based on his having complied with the rule of law.

And this one is truly a gem:


So don't tell me that Britain is free from anti-semitism, or that if Britain has anti-semitism, that it is confined to a small set of low-lifes; It is present in respected journals and academic institutions.
You are illustrating perfectly my point:

That it is absolutely impossible to take a stand on political issues involving Jews because *someone* (in this case you) will invariably try to discredit you by calling you anti-Semitic.

Once again, anti-Israeli DOES NOT EQUAL anti-Jewish.

I do not have the background on those examples you cite to detect presence or absence of anti-Semitism.
However, the second letter is quite clear on discriminating against, what, roughly twenty percent of Jews, for having served an - in his view - unjust cause.

Would you hire someone of whom you knew that he'd served in the Waffen-SS? No? What are you, anti-Germanic racist or something?

-s*
     
einmakom
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Nov 25, 2003, 11:26 AM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
You are illustrating perfectly my point:

That it is absolutely impossible to take a stand on political issues involving Jews because *someone* (in this case you) will invariably try to discredit you by calling you anti-Semitic.

Once again, anti-Israeli DOES NOT EQUAL anti-Jewish.

I do not have the background on those examples you cite to detect presence or absence of anti-Semitism.
However, the second letter is quite clear on discriminating against, what, roughly twenty percent of Jews, for having served an - in his view - unjust cause.

Would you hire someone of whom you knew that he'd served in the Waffen-SS? No? What are you, anti-Germanic racist or something?

-s*
So it is "anti-Zionist" to refuse a report written by an Israeli and a Palestinian?

Brilliant.

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-12.htm
The Relationship to Anti-Semitism



A second important question concerns the anti-Semitic aspects of the academic boycott against Israel. This has to be seen against the background of the boycott's relation to various phenomena in Western society concerning the Jews and Israel. The first of these is the major immigration of Arabs and other Moslems to Western countries and the radicalization of significant elements of that community. This is often accompanied by anti-Semitic hate propaganda. In the academic world one finds many such Arab radicals in mid-Eastern and Islamic studies, one of the main disciplines promoting anti-Semitism at universities. Arab student unions are other major propagators of hatred.

A second relevant factor is the permeation of the Palestinian narrative into Western society, especially its left-wing elements. The third is the widespread latent anti-Semitism, particularly in Europe, which has been largely ignored for years.

An additional problem is the fact that on several occasions, Jews have been at the forefront of the attacks against Israel. So far, Hilary and Steven Rose have seemingly benefited from their boycott actions, receiving much publicity, including an uncritical interview in The Jerusalem Post.19

Yet another important aspect is that the academic boycott does not relate only to general phenomena in society. It is also an expression of the specific problems of many Western universities where major anti-societal forces have developed over the decades. The boycott actions against Israel have brought further proof that a substantial number of 'tenured radicals' have permeated academia where they try to undermine society rather than to objectively engage in the pursuit of knowledge.
Even more:

Nor does this stop at the demonization of Israel. It morphs into open anti-Semitism, in ways which would once have been unthinkable. Even in the most respectable media outlets, the language being used constantly elides Israel and the Jews and—consciously or unconsciously—draws on ancient anti-Semitic tropes.

Even Parliament now plays host to such attitudes. Tam Dalyell, a Labor member of Parliament, claimed that both Prime Minister Tony Blair and President Bush were influenced by a “cabal” of powerful Jews—and he included on his list people who were not Jews at all, but merely had some Jewish ancestry.

The following day, a BBC TV current-affairs show devoted substantial time to asking whether Dalyell’s claims were true—which left the impression that there was indeed a tight-knit group of Jews in America that wielded far too much power.
     
Spheric Harlot  (op)
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Nov 25, 2003, 12:35 PM
 
Originally quoted by einmakom:
An additional problem is the fact that on several occasions, Jews have been at the forefront of the attacks against Israel. So far, Hilary and Steven Rose have seemingly benefited from their boycott actions, receiving much publicity, including an uncritical interview in The Jerusalem Post.
You know, if criticism of Israeli politics is anti-Semitic, what does that make these Jewish people?

Wait - don't tell me: "They're full of self-loathing", right? Just like I'm full of self-loathing for ripping into Hamburg's former Senator for Inner Affairs, Ronald Schill, for being a fascist bastard, because he happens to be Protestant like myself. Right?

Again: I have no idea if the three examples you posted above are actually in intent anti-Semitic. Nothing you have posted seems to indicate this.

Note that I am NOT saying that there is no anti-Semitism in Europe, or that it shouldn't be condemned.

-s*
     
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Nov 25, 2003, 01:11 PM
 
It just came to me!

Take a look at it this way: A country like Nigeria, which has been run by murderous, thieving dictators for years on end. Now, if I logically said "Nigeria needs new government" or "Nigeria is a threat to the stability of Africa" would people call me racist? I'm truly curious.

Would people recognize my dissatisfaction with those who run Nigeria and not Nigerian people as a whole?

Or, for many neo-cons: does being against Saddam make you against all Iraqis? Does being against Saddam's treatment of his people make you against Muslims?

I believe:
You can have a problem with Nigeria and not be racist.
You can have a problem with Israel and not be anti-semetic.

Just because you disagree with Israel's security policies does not make you anti-semitic.

Continued misuse of the label will render it meaningless.
If after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say ["You're right, we were wrong -- good job"] -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush."
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einmakom
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Nov 25, 2003, 01:41 PM
 
Indeed, continued misuse of a label does render it diluted (not meaningless)

But the EU's own report verified anti-semitism rising in Europe.

Britain's own members of Parliament made anti-semitic statements.

It is a very short leap from anti-zionist to anti-semite, and many anti-semites gleefully use the former as cover for the latter.

If you would like us all to be charitable, I can do that- instead of anti-semitism, it's widespread willfull ignorance.

In fact, http://www.somethingjewish.co.uk/art...s_tale_of_.htm argues such, with specific regard to the academic discrimination in the British academic community.

The Curious Tale of the Oxford Professor Who Hated Israel
by: Rabbi Shmuley Boteach


The news this week that Andrew Wilkie, Oxford University's Nuffield Professor of Pathology, told an Israeli doctoral applicant that he was not prepared to take on Israelis as students because of the "gross human rights abuses" that Israelis inflict on Palestinians, and his further assertion that "I am not the only UK scientist with these views," sadly did not come as a shock to me.

When I first received emailed notification from outraged Jews the world over, who wrote to me as someone who had served as rabbi to the students of Oxford, I simply thought to myself, "Well, some things never change."

In my capacity as head of the Oxford L'Chaim Society, which over eleven years rose to become the second largest student organization in Oxford's history, I had brought Israel's leaders to lecture to the students and counter the flood of pro-Arab propaganda heard in stereo from both Arab and British speakers. The demonization of Israel was loud and frequent. But whereas Arab heads of State and Ministers were welcomed as official University guests, Israel's leaders were treated in a somewhat different manner.

I remember the nearly impossible task of persuading any Oxford college to join us as an official host for Binyamin Netanyahu, the first sitting Israeli Prime Minister ever to visit the University. When Yitzchak Shamir visited with us, nearly all of the leading academics I invited to dinner with him turned us down. Ariel Sharon, who in 1992 did us the great favor of opening our new Jewish Student Center in central Oxford, filling in for Ronald Regan when the former President had to cancel his lecture just days before he was to arrive, gave one of the Oxford Union's most memorable orations. Still, he too was snubbed by the nearly all the Oxford academics whom we always made it a point to invite. That is not to say that the University snubbed famous Jewish personalities.

Lest you believe that it was only the right-wing Prime Ministers who were snubbed, the same happened with Shimon Peres. Not only did a paucity of academics agree to dinner with him. Worse, when we took Mr. Peres to speak at our the Cambridge branch of the L'Chaim Society, a coalition of Arab and British students tried to have the police arrest him - I kid you not - on charges of war crimes. And a huge protest rally was organized against Mr. Peres with bullhorns blaring. Even the by Yitzhak Rabin, whose lecture at Oxford had to be cancelled on the day that he was to deliver it as he rushed from England to Israel in response to a deadly bus bombing in October 1994, was opposed by leading Oxford academics. And this was well after the Oslo accords were signed and he had won the Nobel Peace Prize!

Does this mean that British academia in general, and Oxford in particular, is anti-Semitic? My honest answer would have to be, no (or more precisely, not necessarily). Firstly, I have always argued that the Jewish community must proceed with great caution before making
accusations of Jew hatred. Anti-Semitism is deadly and it is repugnant.And we debase the seriousness of the allegation through misuse. Even when the University inexplicably singled out L'Chaim from over 300 Oxford societies to try and remove "Oxford University" from our official title - something for which we had obtained official permission and which even The Oxford University Tiddlywinks Society was granted without much hassle_ -_ I consistently and publicly disagreed with the many who said that the University's actions were motivated by anti-Semitism. Besides, the University has honored many Jewish personalities and indeed, the Chancellor, Lord Jenkins, accepted my invitation to dinner with Elie Wiesel, and a high number of very distinguished Oxford Professors accepted my invitation to dine with Simon Wiesenthal.

What is indisputable, as the Israel-bashing Prof. Wilkie, justifiably points out, is that most British academics have either little sympathy for, or outright hostility, toward, the State of Israel. I know that many believe that anti-Zionism is simply a mask for anti-Semitism, as Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. so eloquently argued. But let's be charitable for a moment and ascribe the British intellectual's hostility toward Israel as resulting from the honored British tradition of championing the underdog. Of course, you have the right to ask what kind of intellectual would be so easily deceived as to accept that five million democratically-minded Jews, with no natural resources, pose a threat to six hundred million oil rich and military-minded Arabs? But hey, intelligent people have been fooled by even greater deceptions.

George Bernard Shaw called Hitler a great man, and Nelson Mandela has been saying for months that George Bush is a greater threat to world peace than Saddam Hussein! So let's continue to be charitable and simply assume that British anti-Zionist academics choose their position simply because the Palestinians are, of course, human beings who deserve rights, and they blame Israel for denying them their rights.

For the sake of argument, let us further assume that these saintly academics, working in their laboratories with halos over their heads, are absolutely correct. That rather than being a liberal democracy forced into militancy in order to thwart the designs of murderous terrorists, Israel is instead a colonial, occupying power who gets off oppressing Palestinians.

Even then, we would have the right to ask whether Prof. Wilkie and his colleagues have similarly denied places in their laboratories to Saudi students whose religious police force young female High School students back into burning buildings_ rather than allow them to run out into the street without the hijab? Has the University turned away the many Saudi princes, some of whom I befriended at Oxford, because their brutal government punishes any criticism of the House of Saud with imprisonment and death?

Has Prof. Wilkie rejected Chinese student applicants over the Brutal oppression of Tibet, the slaughter at Tiananmen Square, or the outright suppression of all organized religion? Has Prof. Wilkie denied Kuwaiti students entry into his lab over their 1991_ expulsion of over 350,000 Palestinians who they regarded as enemies of the State (something Israel has never even contemplated)? Have Jordanian students been kicked out of Oxford over King Hussein's war against the PLO in the early 1970's that left tens of thousands of Palestinians dead? I don't think so. When I was at Oxford I met the extremely friendly Jordanian princesses studying there, even though their government allows no democracy.

No, it seems that Prof. Wilkie and his ilk have a problem solely with Israel and noone else. And in my continued effort to be charitable to the esteemed scientist, allow me to assert that the good Professor's prejudices are animated not by Jew-hatred, but by ignorance.

Prof. Wilkie is no anti-Semite. He's just an uninformed ignoramus. A buffoon. A silly man who speaks before he thinks (he is now apologizing to all who will listen that he didn't mean what he said). A man who doesn't deserve to be a professor, not because he's prejudiced, but because he contravenes the very first law of science: refrain from drawing conclusions before you have the evidence. Prof. Wilkie is one of those unintellectual mediocrities, an ideological extremist, who substitutes passion for reason. The thought that a shoot-from-the-hip, out-of-control, uneducated fool is the head of an Oxford science department is alarming indeed.
CONTINUED
     
einmakom
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Nov 25, 2003, 01:42 PM
 

Is Prof. Wilkie, who asserts that Palestinians only "wish to live in their own country," aware that for nearly a century they have repeatedly rejected a state of their own if it meant Israel's continued existence? Is the great man of science familiar with the Balfour declaration of 1917 which promised a Jewish and an Arab state carved out of the Middle East (accepted by the and Jews rejected by the Arabs), is he aware that Jordan constitutes 78% of the original British proposed Jewish homeland, has he heard of the British Peel Partition Proposal of 1937 (accepted by the Jews rejected by the Arabs), the UN Partition Plan of 1947 (accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs), Ehud Barak and Bill Clinton's Camp David Proposal of 00 for a Palestinian State (accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs)? Is he aware that even in the aftermath of its greatest victory in the Six Day War of 1967, Israel immediately made peace overtures to the Arab States who replied from Khartoum with their now infamous three noes (no negotiation, no peace, no recognition)?

In the final analysis, intellectual like Prof. Wilkie are not anti-Semites. They just don't know any better.

Often, those who harbor prejudices against others are told they need to be reeducated, the hope being that the darkness of their acquired biases will be purged through exposure to the light. But since you can't reeducate those who have not been educated in the first place, this remedy is useless with regards to Prof. Wilkie. Rather, I would simply counsel him that next time around, before deciding to become a spokesman for any particular issue, it's a good idea to know something about it first.

copyright 1996-2003 JMT Ventures
Still, if the EU report found anti-semitism, why can't Europeans accept that? Better to chalk it up as willfull ignorance so they can all sleep better at night.
     
thunderous_funker
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Nov 25, 2003, 02:32 PM
 
Since Palestinians are Semitic, I find that article you posted to be laced with rabid anti-semitism.

I would be willing to wager just about anything that it would much easier to find great big swaths of Europe that harbor very ugly feelings towards Muslims than it would be to find great big swaths of Europe that harbor very ugly feelings about Jews.

Does anti-semitism exist in Europe? Yep. Just like every other form of racism exists in just about every nation on Earth.

If we all hold hands and admit the obvious tautology that racism exists, can we finally end this retarded thread?
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voodoo
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Nov 25, 2003, 03:22 PM
 
"Ariel Sharon, who in 1992 did us the great favor of opening our new Jewish Student Center in central Oxford, filling in for Ronald Regan when the former President had to cancel his lecture just days before he was to arrive, gave one of the Oxford Union's most memorable orations. Still, he too was snubbed by the nearly all the Oxford academics whom we always made it a point to invite."

Maybe they didn't have to stomach to listen to a convicted war criminal

this rabbi is seriously off his racist rock.
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einmakom
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Nov 25, 2003, 03:35 PM
 
if it makes you sleep well at night, you can believe that-- but they also snubbed the heroes of the Left, Shamir, Rabin, and Peres.
     
voodoo
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Nov 25, 2003, 03:41 PM
 
Originally posted by einmakom:
if it makes you sleep well at night, you can believe that-- but they also snubbed the heroes of the Left, Shamir, Rabin, and Peres.
I thought it was strange of the rabbi to expect anyone to listen to Sharon. Personally I'd have honoured all Israeli politicians and listened to them speak except the nutcases in Likud. Netanyahu is ok but the nationalistic hardliniers are just sick.
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Lerkfish
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Nov 25, 2003, 04:14 PM
 
Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
If we all hold hands and admit the obvious tautology that racism exists, can we finally end this retarded thread?
     
things
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Nov 25, 2003, 05:04 PM
 
Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
I am so sick of hearing this BS.
I remember CNN display pictures of Palestinians cheering in the streets with sweets and the rest of it. It was later revealed that those celebrations had absolutely no connections with 9/11-they were celebrating the festival of Eid from months before.
It's not BS. I know police officers in NYC that were assigned to protect Muslim neighborhoods after the attack. Most of the people in these neighborhoods were celebrating the attack and burning American flags - no BS.

I'm sick of all the excuses for terrorism and it's misguided supporters.





     
thunderous_funker
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Nov 25, 2003, 06:02 PM
 
Originally posted by things:
I'm sick of all the excuses for terrorism and it's misguided supporters.

All of them? Or just the Arabs?
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
Zimphire
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Nov 26, 2003, 12:04 PM
 
Originally posted by Demonhood:
ahem
People will believe anything if it tells them what they want to hear.

Is all of Europe anti-Semitic? Naw.

A good bit of it is though.

They are more anti-Israel than anti-Jew.

But anti-Israelism can and has changed into anti-Semitism real quick.
     
Zimphire
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Nov 26, 2003, 12:08 PM
 
Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
All of them? Or just the Arabs?
Yes, all the terrorists.

Unless you are one of those silly people that consider the US as a terrorists nation.
     
Spheric Harlot  (op)
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Nov 26, 2003, 12:14 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
But anti-Israelism can and has changed into anti-Semitism real quick.
Yes, and it certainly helps to have a stupid ****wad like Sharon insist that they are one and the same.

Which basically means we all - except einmakom - agree upon the basic premise which I've tried to put forth in this thread.

Thank you.

-s*
     
Zimphire
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Nov 26, 2003, 12:32 PM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Yes, and it certainly helps to have a stupid ****wad like Sharon insist that they are one and the same.

Which basically means we all - except einmakom - agree upon the basic premise which I've tried to put forth in this thread.

Thank you.

-s*
I am sure they aren't the same for some, but for a lot they are.

A lot of people dislike Israel and Sharon because they dislike Jews. This cannot be denied.

Lets hope hatred towards both Israel and the Jews stop soon. Neither are going anywhere anytime soon.

We need to see more of this going on.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3239492.stm
     
Spheric Harlot  (op)
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Nov 26, 2003, 12:41 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
I am sure they aren't the same for some, but for a lot they are.

A lot of people dislike Israel and Sharon because they dislike Jews. This cannot be denied.
I believe those to be *by far* in the minority, and certainly nowhere remotely NEAR 59% of Europeans.

The converse is probably much more common, though: A number of people have probably taken to disliking Jews because of Israel and Sharon.

And basically, that's how Sharon insists it be - he's literally asking for it and doing a HUGE number of non-Israeli Jews a tremendous disfavor.

-s*
     
swrate
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Nov 26, 2003, 12:49 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
I am sure they aren't the same for some, but for a lot they are.

A lot of people dislike Israel and Sharon because they dislike Jews. This cannot be denied.

Lets hope hatred towards both Israel and the Jews stop soon. Neither are going anywhere anytime soon.

We need to see more of this going on.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3239492.stm
yes, same as saying:
....a lot of people probably hate Arabs because of Bin Laden, Saddam, Arafat (even thoough he received a peace Nobel prize) and the rich Saudis..

anti-Arabicus is just as strong as anti_Semeticus of whatever Sharon names it.

and European are anti-All lol
     
petehammer
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Nov 26, 2003, 01:01 PM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
The converse is probably much more common, though: A number of people have probably taken to disliking Jews because of Israel and Sharon.

And basically, that's how Sharon insists it be - he's literally asking for it and doing a HUGE number of non-Israeli Jews a tremendous disfavor.
Proof positive: take a look at the rise in anti-Americanism around the world since Bush took office. Thanks, W!
If after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say ["You're right, we were wrong -- good job"] -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush."
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AutoJC
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Nov 26, 2003, 02:05 PM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
...and being a beef sausage is being meat.

Relevance?
Interesting how you relate humans to meat.
AutoJC

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AutoJC
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Nov 26, 2003, 02:07 PM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Yes, and it certainly helps to have a stupid ****wad like Sharon insist that they are one and the same.

Which basically means we all - except einmakom - agree upon the basic premise which I've tried to put forth in this thread.

Thank you.

-s*
About hating Jews and Israel?

Shame on you.
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AutoJC
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Nov 26, 2003, 02:09 PM
 
Originally posted by things:
It's not BS. I know police officers in NYC that were assigned to protect Muslim neighborhoods after the attack. Most of the people in these neighborhoods were celebrating the attack and burning American flags - no BS.

I'm sick of all the excuses for terrorism and it's misguided supporters.





You'll get a megadose of that from Lil Babykitten. Simply place her on your Ignore List, as I did.
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Nov 26, 2003, 02:10 PM
 
Originally posted by AutoJC:
Interesting how you relate humans to meat.
via sausage?

i hope you don't mind sausages.

     
AutoJC
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Nov 26, 2003, 02:18 PM
 
Originally posted by einmakom:
Still, if the EU report found anti-semitism, why can't Europeans accept that? Better to chalk it up as willfull ignorance so they can all sleep better at night.
A very valid point.

Many times "willful ignorance" is far more dangerous than the anti-(ethnic) labels.

Personally, I believe that anti-semitism is the by-product of willful ignorance.
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nas t. ho
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Nov 26, 2003, 03:02 PM
 
my assessment of the level of anti judaism, israel, semitism, sharon in europe (excluding russia) is.

*anti current (and former) israeli politics, in relation to the palistinian issue: 60%

*anti sharon (for being a fat fascist fvck): 90%

*anti judaism: 6%

*anti semitic: 4%

that's just the way it is. most people i know, and have discussed this issue with, are usually pretty much opposed to the way israel is going about the palistinian crisis.

but, once again, it had nothing whatsoever to do with people's religion or ethnic background. it was about politics! and "matter-of-fact" issues.
     
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Nov 26, 2003, 03:06 PM
 
... ... ...

Why is this thread just like the "Fuck the French" one ? I seriously doubt that threads like this get so long because there's actually much serious debate here. I think that those Americans who want to see Europe as a den of socialist (France, Germany), communist (some vague places in Europe that your average dickwad couldn't find on a map) Nazi (Germany), anti-semitic (all Europeans of course, but especially the Germans and the French because we all know it's their fault that Israel has so many problems) and god knows what else will see it that way no matter what.

I think they need to find some scapegoat for whatever failings happen in their idea of a perfect world (shudder). And China, which is far from anyone's concept of paradise doesn't even get mentioned, not to mention shitholes like Columbia or Burma, where no one seems to really give a crap anyway.

We even have real geniuses quoting fascist slogans from some capitalist website about democracy being somehow related to communism (Now I wonder why a rich fat cat would say something like that *"&%@!?)

Conversely, we have our resident pool of geniuses who need to take any and everything that the US does and turn it into some slagging marathon in order to ease their pictures of paranoia and prejudice (The US economy goes up and somehow they construe this as a bad thing????????).

What fun. I think it's time to bugger off here again.
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Nov 26, 2003, 03:16 PM
 
I thought this thread had died an ugly death a couple days ago.

I have a confession to make, though, and it might explain why some like me suspect there might be a rise in Europe's traditional anti-semitism. (Ooops, for voodoo's sake, I'll say some of Europe.)

I just can't understand how someone could "take the Arab side" in the Arab-Israeli conflict, when it is viewed in historical context. And that seems to be the basic position of many Europeans, both citizens and governments. I think most Americans, including the US government, disagree with many of the same Israeli policies that Europeans disagree with, such as settlements. But in the end we want Israel to survive as a nation, something that the Arab side has not wanted. Their goal has been the destruction of Israel.

Therefore, because it seems completely irrational, to me anyway, to take that side in the conflict, one searches for other, a-rational reasons, and anti-semitism just kind of pops up as a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, such as the fact that there is a much larger Arab and/or Muslim population in Europe than Jewish (I'm trying to resist the temptation to say why that is the case...).

Anyway, that's my confession.
     
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Nov 26, 2003, 03:29 PM
 
Originally posted by BRussell:

I have a confession to make, though, and it might explain why some like me suspect there might be a rise in Europe's traditional anti-semitism. (Ooops, for voodoo's sake, I'll say some of Europe.)
Thank you. I really mean that

You show you wish to respect those you debate with and that earns you respect right back. I'd like to apoligized for my previous outburst as it was completely inappropriate and you have shown I've misjudged your character completely.

Understanding how little one knows and the willingess to learn is a sign of great wisdom.
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Nov 26, 2003, 03:51 PM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
I'd like to apoligized for my previous outburst as it was completely inappropriate and you have shown I've misjudged your character completely.
I think I'll start a new thread: "We're all assholes."
     
Zimphire
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Nov 26, 2003, 03:56 PM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I believe those to be *by far* in the minority, and certainly nowhere remotely NEAR 59% of Europeans.

The converse is probably much more common, though: A number of people have probably taken to disliking Jews because of Israel and Sharon.

And basically, that's how Sharon insists it be - he's literally asking for it and doing a HUGE number of non-Israeli Jews a tremendous disfavor.

-s*
100% nonsense. Most of the people who dislike Sharon dislike him because he is Pro-Israel and Pro-Jew, or because they are pro-palestine taking over Israel. Something that just isn't going to happen.

I have yet met one person that was honestly against Sharon, that wasn't against Israel or the Jewish people.

Not because they just dislike him.
     
Zimphire
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Nov 26, 2003, 03:57 PM
 
Originally posted by petehammer:
Proof positive: take a look at the rise in anti-Americanism around the world since Bush took office. Thanks, W!
Naw, people hated the US before that. People were saying the same venomous things when Clinton was in office.

It's a bit louder now because the left hiss and honk more.
     
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Nov 26, 2003, 04:30 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
100% nonsense. Most of the people who dislike Sharon dislike him because he is Pro-Israel and Pro-Jew, or because they are pro-palestine taking over Israel.
100% nonsense. Most of the people who like Sharon like him because he is anti-Palestinian and pro-Zionist, or because they are pro-Israel massacring the Palestinians.
     
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Nov 26, 2003, 04:41 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
100% nonsense. Most of the people who dislike Sharon dislike him because he is Pro-Israel and Pro-Jew, or because they are pro-palestine taking over Israel. Something that just isn't going to happen.

I have yet met one person that was honestly against Sharon, that wasn't against Israel or the Jewish people.

Not because they just dislike him.
Does this only apply to non-Israelis? And if so, why?

Lots of Jews, and lots of Israelis, dislike Sharon, mostly because of his policies. (There is considerable opposition to him, even in his own country - there are even political parties that disagree with him!)

Lots of people in the rest of the world dislike Sharon, but you contend that non-Jews and non-Israelis cannot have the same feelings for the same reasons, 'most of them' disagree with him because of anti-Jewish and/or anti-Israeli feelings?

This is paranoid, and ignorant, nonsense.
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"... in 6 months if WMD are found, I hope all clear-thinking people who opposed the war will say "You're right, we were wrong -- good job". Similarly, if after 6 months no WMD are found, people who supported the war should say the same thing -- and move to impeach Mr. Bush." - moki, 04/16/03
     
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Nov 26, 2003, 04:43 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
...I have yet met one person that was honestly against Sharon, that wasn't against Israel or the Jewish people.

Not because they just dislike him.
biggest_dumba55_post_of_the_century!

great job zimph! i have yet meeting one peoples who is morer ignorance then u.



omg u set us up teh BOMB !!11!!!
     
einmakom
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Nov 26, 2003, 04:47 PM
 
well, you shouted him down nicely- without contradicting a single word of what he had to say. Interesting way to debate.

Of course, the far-left wackos of Israeli politics (shalom achshav, et al) aren't much fans of Sharon, but they're generally pro-Israel.

However, there are far-left wackos (Neturei Karta) who don't believe in Israel's continued existence.

Just doing your homework for you...
     
 
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