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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Terrorist Eric Rudolph to be sentenced today

Terrorist Eric Rudolph to be sentenced today (Page 2)
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von Wrangell
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Jul 19, 2005, 02:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNStein
Why? They've been posted here so many times, and you've seen them so often, what would be the point? Hasn't Vmarks posted the link enough times? Quite frankly, I don't feel like running down the link again.

Nice tactic though, make people keep repeating the same question over and over until they finally get fed up with the subject and you. Great debating strategy.
Perhaps you should have bookmarked it then. Especially if you want to make false claims like that.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Doofy
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Jul 19, 2005, 02:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
2:112 Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
So, nothing else in the entire koran about it then? How is the koran defining "good"?
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Doofy
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Jul 19, 2005, 02:41 PM
 


That do ya Logic?
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
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BRussell
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Jul 19, 2005, 02:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNStein
A true Christian would never take it, anywhere near, that far. Thus, he's just a fruitloop.

Most decidedly, however, he's not Christian.
Of course not. Christianity is at its core a very humanitarian religion. Terrorism is completely incompatible with it, as far as I'm concerned. However, I also understand how, given the right culture, someone like Rudolph could twist it into a right-wing anti-gay, anti-abortion extremism, in the same way that someone like bin Laden could twist Islam. But I think it says more about the culture and the individuals than about the theology itself. I get the distinct impression that many people want to compare theologies and say that Islam is fundamentally more violent. I don't believe that.
     
Doofy
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Jul 19, 2005, 02:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by BRussell
Of course not. Christianity is at its core a very humanitarian religion. Terrorism is completely incompatible with it, as far as I'm concerned. However, I also understand how, given the right culture, someone like Rudolph could twist it into a right-wing anti-gay, anti-abortion extremism, in the same way that someone like bin Laden could twist Islam.
His anti-gay and anti-abortion stances are correct. However, a proper Christian doesn't violently act on these views - he simply voices his concern and then lets The Boss do the judging/burning.
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Shaddim
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Jul 19, 2005, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
See, again you confuse the religion with some of it's "followers". Islam hasn't become a despicable hateful monster. Some of it's "followers" have. If Islam was what you claim it is the world would be burning from the north to the south, from the east to the west. If 1.5 billion people were followers of a "despicable, hateful monster" you wouldn't be able to sit in the safety of your house typing your misunderstandings in public. And just to let you be able to sleep at night. I don't accept that at all. That was a rather serious accusation you made there without the slightest hint of truth to back it up. Seems like you need to calm down for an hour or two. You life in sin seems to be affecting your mood.

How do I know it's false? What other reason is there to claim that deliberately killing 19 children and injuring several else at the same time as killing just under 200 people is less evil than "using" a 16 year old like some do?

Well, my "exteremist bretheren" don't exist. I don't start friendship with extremists. Such a shame that you think that though. Might I ask what made you think I have "exteremist bretheren"?
My life in "sin"? Heh, the peoples of the ME invented the concept of more than one wife, Bucky. A great many of your brothers still practice it today.

16 y/o? Try 6-10 year-olds. That makes it worse, much worse. You can tell a lot about a people by how they treat their children. I'm sure that strapping bombs to them is frowned upon by Allah.

Your "extremist bretheren" don't exist? Yeah, they do dammit, a gang of them murdered the brother of a childhood friend of mine who was walking home from work outside of Tel Aviv 4 days ago. They mutilated his body so badly his father had to identify his body by the birthmarks on his legs and abdomen. They couldn't even check dental records. This is the same man that lost his daughter, my God-daughter in a suicide bombing several years ago, So, don't give me your BS about how Islam is. MY tolerance for (most of) modern Islam is at an end.

the world is burning buddy, open your damned eyes.
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BRussell
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Jul 19, 2005, 03:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy
His anti-gay and anti-abortion stances are correct.
If those are correct Christian views it ought to be easy to find lots of anti-gay and anti-abortion statements or actions by Jesus. I mean, rather than nothing at all.

Not only are his actions a distortion of Christianity, but his views are too. And so are the views of those who agree with him.
     
Wiskedjak  (op)
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Jul 19, 2005, 03:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy
His anti-gay and anti-abortion stances are correct.
And what is a proper Christian to do as the government slowly legalizes these things?
     
Macrobat
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Jul 19, 2005, 03:42 PM
 
Turn the other cheek, or haven't you read Matthew 5:38?
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Wiskedjak  (op)
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Jul 19, 2005, 03:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Macrobat
Turn the other cheek, or haven't you read Matthew 5:38?
Sorry, no I haven't. If it's simply a matter of "turning the other cheek", why are so many people so upset about the possibilities of gay marriage and abortions?
     
Macrobat
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Jul 19, 2005, 03:56 PM
 
Because alot of people ascribe to the evangelical aspects of Christianity, as put forth in the Bible, whereas I believe that one's walk with God is a personal thing and has nothing whatsoever to do with someone else's personal walk with God. If you commit a sin, it's on you is the basic philosophy.

I became disillusioned with mainstream denominational-based religion quite some time ago, but that doesn't mean I don't believe.

I simply don't need the (insert denomination here) church telling me what my personal agendas should consist of - at it's base, Christ said plainly to forgive all who sin.
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Shaddim
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Jul 19, 2005, 04:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak
Sorry, no I haven't. If it's simply a matter of "turning the other cheek", why are so many people so upset about the possibilities of gay marriage and abortions?
I don't have an issue with gay marriage (marriage shouldn't be handled by the State at all). The only thing the state should recognize are civil unions... be they between hetero or homosexuals.

On abortion, I stand for the baby's rights. However, I'd never support or condone acts of violence against a clinic, doctor, patient, etc..
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von Wrangell
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Jul 19, 2005, 05:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy
So, nothing else in the entire koran about it then? How is the koran defining "good"?
I'm sorry but explaining and teaching you that will take too much time. That is something you'll have to do on your own. Or you could ask me about specifics and I'll try to answer to the best of my ability.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 19, 2005, 05:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy


That do ya Logic?
At least you took the time to back up that statement so I'll show you the courtesy of answering it.

That question wasn't about support for terrorism as MacNStein said. Lets take a look at the study. And lets take a look at the actual answer to the statement he made. This is what he said:

"The majority of Muslims support terrorism"

The answer:


Here are more detailed results(for some reason they only asked Muslim this question:

Code:
......Do you personally feel that this kind of violence is often justified to defend Islam, sometimes justified, rarely justified, or never justified? BASED ON MUSLIM RESPONDENTS ONLY: Often Sometimes Rarely Never Don’t know/ justified justified justified justified Refused (N) Turkey 3 9 11 63 14=100 (N=484) Pakistan 13 12 18 46 11=100 (N=736) Lebanon 4 21 35 37 3=100 (N=272) Jordan * 30 23 46 1=100 (N=489) Morocco 4 5 4 83 4=100 (N=631) Indonesia 2 12 16 68 2=100 (N=484)
This image and the results above shows it is patently wrong. Like I said, it's pure ignorant and bigoted BS. It would be interesting to see the same question asked in the US. For more detailed answers to all these question here's the questionnaire : http://pewglobal.org/reports/pdf/248topline.pdf


So do you guys want to make any other derogatory remarks about Islam that I can rebut using your own sources?

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 19, 2005, 05:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNStein
My life in "sin"? Heh, the peoples of the ME invented the concept of more than one wife, Bucky. A great many of your brothers still practice it today.
"Wifes" being the important word. Have you gotten married since I was here the last time? If so I apologise and congratulate you.
16 y/o? Try 6-10 year-olds. That makes it worse, much worse. You can tell a lot about a people by how they treat their children. I'm sure that strapping bombs to them is frowned upon by Allah.
I am as well. But I still don't use the moral relativism you use. Evil only comes in one degree.
Your "extremist bretheren" don't exist? Yeah, they do dammit, a gang of them murdered the brother of a childhood friend of mine who was walking home from work outside of Tel Aviv 4 days ago. They mutilated his body so badly his father had to identify his body by the birthmarks on his legs and abdomen. They couldn't even check dental records. This is the same man that lost his daughter, my God-daughter in a suicide bombing several years ago, So, don't give me your BS about how Islam is. MY tolerance for (most of) modern Islam is at an end.
I'm sad to hear that. But perhaps you should take some time off because that happened and morn your friend. Posting/Saying stuff while grieving is not a good thing to do. But I still have a few comments on that.

1. Have the perpetrators been found?
2. Do you want me to find similar events done from the other side? Something like this? Should I attack Judaism because of this event? Or should I blame decades of tension and hurt on both sides? And do you think the Israeli soldiers would have reacted(or shown the same lack of reaction) if the roles were reversed?
3. What does Islam have to do with this event? Even if they claimed to be Muslims, on what in Islam did they base their actions?
the world is burning buddy, open your damned eyes.
It's been relatively calm where ever I have been. Seems like the burning is mostly in places where the US puts their forces. Wonder why that is.

But I recommend you take a break from the forums while you are grieving your friend. May he rest in peace and may the perpetrators get the appropriate punishment in both this life and the next.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Doofy
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Jul 19, 2005, 06:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
At least you took the time to back up that statement so I'll show you the courtesy of answering it.

That question wasn't about support for terrorism as MacNStein said.
So, all those folks who support Bin Laden are oblivious to the way he goes about his business?
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
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von Wrangell
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Jul 19, 2005, 06:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy
So, all those folks who support Bin Laden are oblivious to the way he goes about his business?
What part of my above answer didn't you understand. MacNStein made a very specific attack on Islam and Muslims. He was obviously wrong.

We could argue back and forth about why so many said that about OBL though. If you want to get into that I'll give you some pointers to better understanding.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
placebo1969
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Jul 19, 2005, 06:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
Evil only comes in one degree.
Are you serious? It's evil if I pull the wings off of a flying ant (like I did when I was a kid), but I don't think it's on the same level as say ramming a car full of exposives into a building with people.
     
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Jul 19, 2005, 07:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak
Is the terrorist who doesn't kill himself somehow better than the terrorist who does?
Statistically, a terrorist who blows himself up is worse (for the world) than the one who intends to survive his attack, for a couple of reasons.

Placement, commitment and power.

A suicide bomber is like a human smart bomb, able to direct himself/herself to the most well populated area before triggering the explosion. Placement.

Anyone who becomes a nut case suicide bomber is 'sold' on their cause to the point where they really do look forward, with great anticipation, to their own dispatch. That means they will give the needed preparation all of their attention and focus. They want this thing to work, otherwise they will languish in jail the rest of their lives or die ignominiously at the hands of the Great Satan or any numbers of "Satan Juniors." Commitment.

The power of a bomb is limited by the strength of the explosives available, it's construction and the size and strength of the ass, er, I mean lass or lad carrying it. But there's an un-natural, but yet, understandable desire by someone who is leaving this earth ANYWAY, to take as many infidels along as well. The large size explosive at Bombs R US isn't large enough. The Economy Size is the one called for by the terrorist who, literally wants more bang for the buck.

A suicide bomber IS worse than a "REGULAR" terrorist.
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
mojo2
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Jul 19, 2005, 08:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by BRussell
I wonder who has committed more acts of terror on US soil, right-wing Christians or Islamists? After 9/11, I'm sure there have been many more people killed by Islamists. But I bet there have been many, many more acts of Christian terrorism in the US - all the abortion clinic bombings and arsons and murders, as well as OK City and Atlanta. I guess the Christians just aren't as effective.
I'm still reading but in "Dying to Win" it says the NUMBER of suicide attacks targeting the US and/or (presumably) US interests, the table says in 1983 Hezbollah terrorists (Islamic) targeted the US and France in 5 SUICIDE terrorist attacks as part of "Completed Campaigns."

In the category of "Ongoing Campaigns" from 1996 until the author's cutoff year, 2003, (but doesn't include attacks since the cutoff), al Qaeda (Islamic) terrorists targeted the US & allies in 21 attacks. In the year 2003 Iraqi rebels of unknown religion attacked the US & allies 20 times.

There were 14 suicide terrorist attacks in the years 1980 - 2003 which were not part of organized campaigns and which were not further identified by group, religion or target country.

That's all I have for now.
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
mojo2
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Jul 19, 2005, 10:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
Uhhh, I never said that you said that. Calm down. The Muslim Coalition is not coming to get you.

just yet.
Apparently you have some strange need to risk bannanation for possibly insinuating a personal threat.

OR

You and nath have the impression the hint of a personal threat ('Haha, just joking') against me might be humorous.

OR

You are reverting to form. This is how Muslims apply pressure.

A calm and peaceful message is delivered to a Mayor or area Governor or Newspaper publisher but both parties know what it really is...a warning given with ominous overtone and insinuation in order to influence that decision maker to go along with the Muslims request/demand/offer. Like Don Vito Corleone's offer that can't be refused. You might call this a dirty stereotype, but those in the world who have done ANY reading on the subject or have actually seen it happen would simply call it the Muslim (mafia-like) modus operandi. This is why the people in the US need to be vigilant and watchful.

OR

The truth hurts and you are flattering me as well as signalling to all who read this that the truths I share on these pages make you feel uncomfortable. Perhaps by exposing things about your beliefs and what that would mean to the non-Muslim reader if the West doesn't remain strong in resisting the forces of evil in the WoT I am focusing attention on aspects of Islam you'd rather remain obscured. Your calm and seemingly reasonable and placid demeanor is the perfect guise of a merchant of death, IF that's what you were.

OR

Everyone here is witnessing an act of Islamic intimidation first hand and if (talk about melodrama, but what the heck! ) something untoward WERE to happen to me...(CUE Godfather clip...)

Don Corleone: I'm a superstitious man, and if some unlucky accident should befall Michael - if he is to be shot in the head by a police officer, or be found hung dead in a jail cell... or if he should be struck by a bolt of lightning - then I'm going to blame some of the people in this room; and then I do not forgive. But with that said, I pledge - on the souls of my grandchildren - that I will not be the one to break the peace that we have made today.
But you don't seem to want peace with me, you are torn. You may want peace but what DO you do about someone like mojo2? You can't dispute the things he says because they are true. You can't discredit him. But you want to silence him so what tactic is left?

Try to threaten him. The ol' chilling effect of a whisper of possible physical danger has silenced many people before. No muss, no fuss. The person is silenced by a whisper and a smile. That's pretty darned impressive, I gotta give it to you. But what if the attempt to silence someone doesn't work?

See? You are on a no-win slippery slope if that's what you are/were doing/thinking. Either give up and ignore me...

OR...

Nah, this is all too crazy. But you stuck your toe into it and now you see what you've done?

Wrangell, you are a worthy opponent so I'll advise you, 'don't go there' unless you have finally caught the Islamic terrorist spirit and feel this is how you intend to make your 'holy' "bones."
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 20, 2005, 08:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by placebo1969
Are you serious? It's evil if I pull the wings off of a flying ant (like I did when I was a kid), but I don't think it's on the same level as say ramming a car full of exposives into a building with people.
That's not evil. If you do it as a kid you are curious. If you do it as an adult you have some issues.

What is it with the moral relativism the conservatives have been showing lately? I thought things were just good or evil, with us or against us, etc etc. What has changed?

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 20, 2005, 08:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by mojo2
Apparently you have some strange need to risk bannanation for possibly insinuating a personal threat.

OR

You and nath have the impression the hint of a personal threat ('Haha, just joking') against me might be humorous.
I'm sorry. I forgot how real the threat is to you. I mean all these attacks in the US must make you afraid to leave the house. Bought a gun lately for protection? Perhaps a Bible and a cross to walk with and show them Evil Muslim Terrorists(tm) when they come and get you?

I'm sorry. I won't joke like that anymore since the threat is so real in the USA now. I mean I'm surprised you are able to walk around your cities with all those bombs going off. Just how do you survive?

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Macrobat
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Jul 20, 2005, 09:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
That's not evil. If you do it as a kid you are curious. If you do it as an adult you have some issues.

What is it with the moral relativism the conservatives have been showing lately? I thought things were just good or evil, with us or against us, etc etc. What has changed?

Nothing has changed. Perhaps you're beginning to actually read the posts instead of assuming everything anyone types in a conservative mode is black/white and accusatory.
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von Wrangell
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Jul 20, 2005, 12:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Macrobat
Nothing has changed. Perhaps you're beginning to actually read the posts instead of assuming everything anyone types in a conservative mode is black/white and accusatory.
Thanks for sharing. Do you feel better now?


How many times have you seen conservatives on here accusing "liberals" of moral relativism? It's been their favourite card to play since the WofT started.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
CreepingDeth
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Jul 20, 2005, 12:11 PM
 
Logic, you haven't calmed down. You've only become more sarcastic.
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 20, 2005, 12:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by CreepingDeth
Logic, you haven't calmed down. You've only become more sarcastic.
Perhaps, but isn't that better than how I acted before

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Macrobat
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Jul 20, 2005, 12:18 PM
 
*BZZZZT!!!!!*

Sorry, Illogic, show me one post where I did so.
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placebo1969
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Jul 20, 2005, 12:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
That's not evil. If you do it as a kid you are curious. If you do it as an adult you have some issues.

What is it with the moral relativism the conservatives have been showing lately? I thought things were just good or evil, with us or against us, etc etc. What has changed?
I disagree with your assessment that intentionally harming an insect is not evil. Regardless, what is the problem with moral relativism? Should all crimes be punished with the same severity?
     
 
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