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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > wtf is going on with the people in New Orleans?

wtf is going on with the people in New Orleans?
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Wiskedjak
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Sep 1, 2005, 06:01 PM
 
New Orleans Descends into Anarchy

It gives me a new understanding of the depths people can descend to when given the opportunity.
     
pooka
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Sep 1, 2005, 06:10 PM
 
It's insane. We're hearing reports of rape and beatings over food and water. Granted these are just reports but it's making me sick.

And I hate to sound like the hysterical rumor mongers that are abound.. I try to ignore speculation and the dooms day ****. I filter these reports and pass them on.. I usually don't react until I get confirmation.

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Pendergast
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Sep 1, 2005, 06:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak
New Orleans Descends into Anarchy

It gives me a new understanding of the depths people can descend to when given the opportunity.
Human beings at their best in extraordinary circumstances. Like it or not, we are likely to do anything for our survival.

Btw, this is what happens regularly in other countries going through the same ordeal, some for a few decades already.

We are little things and not that great at keeping ourselves civilized. We may be very close to anthropophagia, new born assassinations and what else. Just a few days powerless, at the total mercy of the elements, a few hot heads and humanity goes down the drain in no time... or it shows its true self...
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spacefreak
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Sep 1, 2005, 06:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak
New Orleans Descends into Anarchy

It gives me a new understanding of the depths people can descend to when given the opportunity.
You know, just as you post this, order is starting to be restored. A few thousand more guardmen who were recently deployed arrived in various areas of the city.

The overwhelming majority of the survivors are behaving fine. They're understandable stressed, agitated, frustrated, but in general their waiting for buses to take them to Houston and other shelters that were rapidly constructed.

Gangs and thugs existed in New Orleans before Katrina, and they have undoubtedly taken advantage of the situation where authorities have been focused on saving as many lives as possible. And it's just so damn difficult to transport significant numbers of law enforcement personel to most parts of the city.
     
pooka
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Sep 1, 2005, 06:19 PM
 
Also, the mayor is saying that a lot of the problems are being cause by drug addicts that are unable to get their fix and acting like "knuckle heads".

He was just on the radio and his is very upset. He's very pissed that there isn't a more visible military presence in the city. He doesn't want to see another "god damn press conference" until there are more military in the area.

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spacefreak
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Sep 1, 2005, 06:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by pooka
It's insane. We're hearing reports of rape and beatings over food and water. Granted these are just reports but it's making me sick.
Not that I condone fights over food and water, but that's more understandable given the situation than rape.

I can't imagine that if my area were devastated like that, that raping a woman would be on my list on priorities. I'm thinking that the person(s) initiating the rape have probably done it before.

I would, however, confront some dude who is hording cases of water while my family is dehydrating.
     
spacefreak
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Sep 1, 2005, 06:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by pooka
Also, the mayor is saying that a lot of the problems are being cause by drug addicts that are unable to get their fix and acting like "knuckle heads".
You know, I didn't even consider that. Lots of drugs in New Orleans, but that totally skipped my mind. That explains a lot.
     
Wiskedjak  (op)
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Sep 1, 2005, 06:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by spacefreak
You know, just as you post this, order is starting to be restored. A few thousand more guardmen who were recently deployed arrived in various areas of the city.
Good to hear.

Note: I wasn't taking shots Americans, but rather humans in general.
     
pooka
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Sep 1, 2005, 06:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by spacefreak
Not that I condone fights over food and water, but that's more understandable given the situation than rape.

I can't imagine that if my area were devastated like that, that raping a woman would be on my list on priorities. I'm thinking that the person(s) initiating the rape have probably done it before.

I would, however, confront some dude who is hording cases of water while my family is dehydrating.
Sorry, I didn't clarify. This is in the convention center. Police were dispatched to assist. 88 heavily armed officers were repelled by people in the area.

Again, these are reports from the mayor and reporters in the area.

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spacefreak
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Sep 1, 2005, 06:43 PM
 
I just saw a report from the Astrodome in Houston, where buses are arriving from New Orleans...

Initially, the policy there was that they were only going to accept people on 'official' busses, presumably so that every person looking for free room and board didn't take up all the spots. But they had to change that policy early this morning when the first convoys of buses arrived.

It turns out that these convoys were not "official" buses, but rather church buses. Churches were getting survivors out of New Orleans faster than the authorities.

I know there's a lot of bitching here about church folk. I'm not a church-goer, but I have to hand it to them. Over the years, churches continue to amaze me with their ability to organize, mobilize, and carry out these types of endeavors with such efficiency. Granted, they aren't dealing with the disaster on same scale that local/state/federal authorities are. But they know exactly what they can do, and they do it.

On another note, I just saw some official from Baton Rouge, La... might have been the mayor, I didn't catch it. Anyways, he said flat-out that Baton Rouge will show no compassion or tolerance to the thugs who are robbing homes and shooting at rescue officials. He said that if they think they are going to set up that type of shop in Baton Rouge, they will be faced head on and put in jail.
     
spacefreak
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Sep 1, 2005, 06:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by pooka
Sorry, I didn't clarify. This is in the convention center. Police were dispatched to assist. 88 heavily armed officers were repelled by people in the area.
I'm watching video of that exact site as I write... plenty of guardmen present, hundreds of them. Looks pretty orderly now.

Yeah... I heard that the rape(s) were in the Superdome. I hope the person(s) responsible get their asses handed to them. Most of those folks there seem reasonable. I can't imagine that nobody would help her, or round up some folks to beat the living crap out of the rapist if a woman came screaming out of the bathroom. I guess there's the possibility that she'd have been murdered by the rapist to prevent such a reaction, but yeah... information is so sketchy at this point. It could be a bunch of hearsay for all we know.

I didn't hear that the food/water fight was there, but it wouldn't surprise me... I can understand stupid fights breaking out here and there with all the hopelessness, stress, and agitation in the air.
     
mojo2
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Sep 1, 2005, 06:51 PM
 
Without trying to posture or slam or diss anyone here, the suffering going on in Louisiana and the Southern US Gulf states is no different than the types of suffering we've seen in other places.

And when we watched the people of Viet Nam and the Bangladeshis and the Ethiopeans and the Cambodians and Indonesians and Nicaraguans and Japanese, and the Iranians and Chinese and the Philippinos and the Sudanese and the Somalis and the millions of others throughout the years enduring intense and widespread disaster the U.S. people and the U.S. government responded with aid to those peoples TIME AND TIME AGAIN.

We did so because it's part of our Judeo-Christian fabric of belief, we did so because we DID put ourselves in their places mentally to the extent we could. The human drama going on here and now in the USA is no different than that whic went on elsewhere.

We saw and heard and imagined the things people were enduring then and we do the same here and now and with each and every time it happens we say a prayer and thank our God for sparing us and if we can we roll up our sleeves and/or pull out our wallets and do what we can to help.
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
ThinkInsane
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Sep 1, 2005, 07:35 PM
 
Disaster brings out the very best and the very worst in people. It's sickening that some people take the opportunity to create havoc, to rob and steal, to commit crimes of brutality against their fellow man and degrade and demean them in the most heinous of ways at a time when those victimized just had their lives devastated. Those that prey on others at a time like this (anytime, really, but this makes it all the more disgusting) make me feel ashamed to be a part of the same species, and I resent the hell out of that.

At the same time, those that act with charity to their fellow man in a time of need, that rise to the occasion and do so selflessly, reaffirm my faith in humanity and confirm to me that all is not lost. At least not yet.
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spacefreak
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Sep 1, 2005, 08:31 PM
 
Some more scoopage...

1) Many of those who stayed behind in New Orleans did so knowing that the upper and middle classes were evacuating their property. (ie. they were planning to loot and steal from the beginning).

2) It's looking like the Louisiana Governor was/is in way over her head. For a city that size, she only had 2000 National Guardsmen activated and/or on standby. State police weren't fully mobilized, and curfew in New Orleans wasn't enforced the night of the hurricane.

Essentially, control of the city was lost the moment Katrina hit.
     
finboy
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Sep 1, 2005, 08:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak
New Orleans Descends into Anarchy

It gives me a new understanding of the depths people can descend to when given the opportunity.
Everyone, everywhere, all of the time, is three days away from this type of behavior, or, at most, a week. Civilization is an illusion.
     
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Sep 1, 2005, 08:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by spacefreak
Some more scoopage...

1) Many of those who stayed behind in New Orleans did so knowing that the upper and middle classes were evacuating their property. (ie. they were planning to loot and steal from the beginning).
Great scoopage. I have another one for you.

Use a flea. Any flea.
Train it to jump.

Then, remove a leg. Ask it to jump.
Remove another one. Ask it to jump.
Now, after you removed all legs, ask it to jump. It won't.

Scoop: removing the legs from a flea turns them deaf.


2) It's looking like the Louisiana Governor was/is in way over her head. For a city that size, she only had 2000 National Guardsmen activated and/or on standby. State police weren't fully mobilized, and curfew in New Orleans wasn't enforced the night of the hurricane.

Essentially, control of the city was lost the moment Katrina hit.
Has is expected at the time a disaster strikes. Especially of that magnitude and type.
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spacefreak
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Sep 1, 2005, 08:42 PM
 
Does anyone know how the federal government can go about taking over control of New Orleans, or any city for that matter? Can it be done, and if so, what's the process like. Can such a process be expedited?

The moment that it becomes obvious that a governor (and mayor) is incompetant, there's got to be a way to seize the area for humanity's sake, and put in a Rudy Guiliani or other qualified person to take over direction, at least for a specified period of time.

It's likely too late now, but in the future... if we suffer another disaster or terrorist attack or whatever, and the governing bodies of that area start floundering, there's got to be an expedited way to push those folks aside to better serve the public.
     
spacefreak
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Sep 1, 2005, 08:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Pendergast
Has is expected at the time a disaster strikes.
There was no loss of control of NYC on 9/11.
     
Pendergast
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Sep 1, 2005, 08:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by spacefreak
There was no loss of control of NYC on 9/11.
Which explains why there were 3000 deaths then.

Which explains why it was all prevented.

Oh! wait...
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spacefreak
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Sep 1, 2005, 08:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Pendergast
Which explains why there were 3000 deaths then.

Which explains why it was all prevented.

Oh! wait...
You stated loss of control of a city is expected when a disaster stikes. I pointed out that with the disaster of 9/11, the nation's largest city did not lose control. And this is the best you could come up with?

You're all over the place. Completely incoherent at best.
     
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Sep 1, 2005, 09:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by spacefreak
You stated loss of control of a city is expected when a disaster stikes. I pointed out that with the disaster of 9/11, the nation's largest city did not lose control. And this is the best you could come up with?

You're all over the place. Completely incoherent at best.
Then how do you explain the loss of so many lives then?

That is because Giuliani had no control. Afterwards, he did a great job in making people feel safer. But at the time of the disaster, no one had control, not even the terrorists.

In New Orleans, it is the same. Everyone knew it would hit hard, and I bet no one believed it would hit that hard. This is a typical situation of usual underestimation.

Yet, all you do is puting blame on people who tried their best. That they could have done better is obvious. That they knew they could have done better before the fact remains unclear, except to you, and the crowd of people who believe they can do better.

Having lived in disaster areas a few times, believe me; no one is in control, no one can predict and prevent the worse unless the most exceptional and most expensive measures are taken right off the start, which is not the way of people who calculate odds and manage the money.

You can call me incoherent as much as you want, but at this point, although you have a right to your own opinion, you are way too early to make accusations about people about whom you know nothing of what they are doing. You are a bystander and know only what bystanders know; nothing. What you are doing is the exact equivalent of what some liberals have done; blaming Bush for Katrina. You are not different.
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spacefreak
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Sep 1, 2005, 09:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Pendergast
Then how do you explain the loss of so many lives then?

That is because Giuliani had no control. Afterwards, he did a great job in making people feel safer. But at the time of the disaster, no one had control, not even the terrorists.

In New Orleans, it is the same. Everyone knew it would hit hard, and I bet no one believed it would hit that hard. This is a typical situation of usual underestimation.

Yet, all you do is puting blame on people who tried their best. That they could have done better is obvious. That they knew they could have done better before the fact remains unclear, except to you, and the crowd of people who believe they can do better.

Having lived in disaster areas a few times, believe me; no one is in control, no one can predict and prevent the worse unless the most exceptional and most expensive measures are taken right off the start, which is not the way of people who calculate odds and manage the money.

You can call me incoherent as much as you want, but at this point, although you have a right to your own opinion, you are way too early to make accusations about people about whom you know nothing of what they are doing. You are a bystander and know only what bystanders know; nothing. What you are doing is the exact equivalent of what some liberals have done; blaming Bush for Katrina. You are not different.
Much better. Thanks for the extended reply. I didn't make out what you were saying in your other posts.

I realize all these folks are working their butts off at the moment, and I appreciate it and wish them the best.

I didn't editorialize what I stated up there at all. Those were reports by journalists on the ground there stating that control of the city was lost immediately. They were the ones mentioning that only 2000 guardsmen were on duty and that the curfew on Katrina night wasn't enforced at all. Yes, I am a bystander... a bystander repeating the words of numerous reporters who have been in New Orleans the entire time.

I hadn't read that here, so I just relayed what I heard. One of the reporters was Shep Smith. I didn't get the CNN dude's name, but he stated similar observations.
     
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Sep 1, 2005, 10:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by finboy
Everyone, everywhere, all of the time, is three days away from this type of behavior, or, at most, a week. Civilization is an illusion.
Civilization is only an illusion when people let it be that way. There ARE people in New Orleans (and Gulfport for that matter) who are remaining civilized no matter what is happening around them. The people who are causing problems were never too civilized to begin with.

I am completely amazed that there was no "shoot to kill" order as soon as the looting started. ONE dead guy with a stolen TV in his hands would have stopped a lot of the chaos. This may sound bloodthirsty, but how many very sick people (and babies) have had to wait for evacuation much longer than they should have because of the yahoos shooting at helicopters? How many of those innocent people should die just so wanton thieves can live to rob someone else?

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Sep 1, 2005, 10:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Pendergast
Then how do you explain the loss of so many lives then?
Well, early in the morning, two fuel-laden airplanes crashed into the Twin Towers, somewhere around the 80th floor in both cases. These caused large fires on these floors and some of the adjacent ones, likely killing everyone on those floors more or less instantly, but also preventing people from passing these floors going either up or down.

People below these floors immediately began to evacuate the building. Some of them jumped from windows -most of these died- but most took more prudent routes. Rescuers also started pouring into the buildings, and managed to evacuate large numbers of people who couldn't make it out. Of course, floors above the 80th were blocked by burning jet fuel, so rescuers could not reach there from the ground.

However, another route was available to those above the 80th floor: they couldn't go down, but they could go up. Many did exactly this; they headed for the roof to wait for helicopters to get them out. Some others jumped, and a few stayed put to wait for rescuers. All of these (except, perhaps, jumping out of the 80th floor of a skyscraper) are valid tactics. Those who stayed put could not have known that rescuers were blocked from below.

Sadly, although the towers lasted long enough for rescuers to more or less clear out the lower floors, they did not last long enough for helicopters to clear the upper floors. Exactly what happened here may never be known for sure, but the common theory is that the heat from the burning jet fuel melted the towers' support systems. The towers had an unusual design, whereby the supports were pretty much all located around the outside of the building; although many thought this was unsightly, it also ensured that the most likely direction of collapse was inward. Sure enough, the towers collapsed neatly in on themselves (in whatever way the term 'neatly' applies to collapsing skyscrapers). Many, though not all, of those still in the towers at this time were killed; those who weren't were extracted from the rubble over the next few days. However, it is generally considered a Good Thing that if the towers had to fall that they did so in that manner; had they fallen sideways they would have slammed into buildings for many blocks, probably killing many thousands more.

I am only half-joking. You wanted an explanation; here it is. Giulani had excellent control. It is estimated that some 100,000 people -50,000 employees and about as many visitors- were in the towers when the planes struck, and over 97% of these made it out alive. This is remarkable by pretty much any standard. Giuliani was, admittedly, not Superman -and even Superman would have been sorely tested in the task of saving everybody- but can you truly fault someone for not being omnipotent?
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mojo2
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Sep 1, 2005, 10:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by spacefreak
You stated loss of control of a city is expected when a disaster stikes. I pointed out that with the disaster of 9/11, the nation's largest city did not lose control. And this is the best you could come up with?

You're all over the place. Completely incoherent at best.
The essentials of life, water, food, medicine and gasoline are absent. Water is chest high still in many places all over the city. There's no utilities. Law enforcement is stretched thin.

This is COMPLETELY different in scope than 9/11.

THIS is the level of preparedness we should aspire to.

THIS scenario is what we might face all over the country if our efforts in Iraq were unsuccessful.
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
Wiskedjak  (op)
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Sep 1, 2005, 10:39 PM
 
9/11 was handled amazingly well. But the 9/11 disaster was highly focussed to a few city blocks with only a few thousand people directly affected, and even those people were not without food and water for days, and there was an enemy to focus on. The entire population of New Orleans is completely displaced and it will take years to repair the whole city, and one cannot declare war on the weather.

I can appreciate how easy it is to descend to primal behavior in that sort of situation.
     
mojo2
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Sep 1, 2005, 10:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak
9/11 was handled amazingly well. But the 9/11 disaster was highly focussed to a few city blocks with only a few thousand people directly affected, and even those people were not without food and water for days, and there was an enemy to focus on. The entire population of New Orleans is completely displaced and it will take years to repair the whole city, and one cannot declare war on the weather.

I can appreciate how easy it is to descend to primal behavior in that sort of situation.
In the back of my mind always (and often on the tip of my tongue) is the knowledge that when all is said and done reality is the best teacher.

What WOULDN'T we do for oil and gas?
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
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Sep 1, 2005, 11:02 PM
 
You guys are forgetting one important thing: New Orleans has always had one of the highest crime and murder rates in the nation. Forget what you see on TV or what you saw once on a vacation tour of the city, N.O is and always has been a cesspool of violence, murder, and crime.

I was born in N.O, and grew up in Baton Rouge. I've spent alot of time in N.O and let me tell you this, the city is 75% ghetto. The police couldn't keep things under control even in the best of times, so why does the lawlessness happening now surprise them?

What enrages me is not the looting or the crime, but that the city and state officials OBVIOUSLY HAD NO doomsday scenario in place to deal with the doomsday THEY KNEW would eventually happen. Gov. Blanco looks like a deer caught in headlights, and the N.O mayor appears to have no idea what to do.

You can argue that this happened so fast it caught them off guard, to which I'll respond "bullsh*t!," b/c they should have had a worse case scenario plan to throw into effect b/c THEY KNEW the city would flood eventually.

They could have at least conceptualized a doomsday scenario, which could have even be sketched out in one 'effin sitting in one sitting. Hell something like this even:

****
In the event of a levee breach resulting in a flood of the majority of the city, the following will take place effective immediately:

1) Marshal Law declared. Restraint will not be shown to those seeking to create an atmosphere of anarchy.

2) All consumable goods in commercial and private businesses will be ceased for the overall good of the people in need. A task force shall be put in place in these areas to insure the equal distribution of common goods such as food, water, and clothing, so that as little as possible goes to waste. Property ceased shall be itemized as distributed and store owners shall receive monetary compensation in the amount of the average retail price of those goods at the time, once the state of emergency in the city passes and rebuilding begins.

3) The city of New Orleans shall establish a fleet of shallow water boats and aquatic vehicles for use by emergency and police keeping officials in the event of marshall law ( in the event of a mass city flooding ). In addition, fuel for this fleet shall be kept in a reserves possible of sustaining them for at least 1 week.

4) The city shall establish a "safe heaven" zone for use in this emergency. The public shall be educated as to what to do in the event of a mass city flooding. Resources in the form of rations and medical equipment shall be stored for use in this situation, which will be enough to last no less than 1 week after mass flooding.

( you can literally go on and on as all I've said is pure common sense for a city/state who knew this would happen eventually )
( Last edited by greenamp; Sep 1, 2005 at 11:31 PM. )
     
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Sep 2, 2005, 12:23 AM
 
From what I saw on Dateline tonight most of the survivors could live off their blubber for a few weeks.

Is everyone fat in New Orleans or what.

Oh, oh, oooh...I haven't had food (chocolate bars and chips) for two hours...I'm starving!!!
     
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Sep 2, 2005, 12:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster
From what I saw on Dateline tonight most of the survivors could live off their blubber for a few weeks.

Is everyone fat in New Orleans or what.

Oh, oh, oooh...I haven't had food (chocolate bars and chips) for two hours...I'm starving!!!
You're a f*cking idiot.
     
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Sep 2, 2005, 12:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by greenamp
You're a f*cking idiot.
Am not...you are!
     
greenamp
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Sep 2, 2005, 12:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster
Am not...you are!
Seriously man. Needy people are dying of dehydration and starvation in the city and yet you can still joke about it?
     
ThinkInsane
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Sep 2, 2005, 12:51 AM
 
Please stop with the name calling. There, I asked nice. There are better ways of saying something someone said is stupid, crass, or insensitive without calling them a ****ing idiot.

And not that it really matters, but Men's Health did rate New Orleans as the fattest city in the US, at least it was a couple of years ago.
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greenamp
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Sep 2, 2005, 12:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by ThinkInsane
Please stop with the name calling. There, I asked nice. There are better ways of saying something someone said is stupid, crass, or insensitive without calling them a ****ing idiot.

And not that it really matters, but Men's Health did rate New Orleans as the fattest city in the US, at least it was a couple of years ago.
I just say video footage of stranded people in N.O literally dying and dead b/c they have had no food or water for almost a week.

I'm sorry but when some random moron makes a comment like " can't they live off their blubber? " in the wake of the current crisis happening there he deserves no verbal restraint whatsoever.
     
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Sep 2, 2005, 01:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by greenamp
I'm sorry but when some random moron makes a comment like...
reportinated and should be banned.
     
ThinkInsane
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Sep 2, 2005, 03:11 AM
 
The comment was in poor taste. AR probably realizes that, and if you called him on it in a civil manner, he may well have apologized. Continuing to name call serves no purpose except to exacerbate the situation. There is always room for a bit of civility, even in the face of human tragedy.

And we all have our slip-ups, myself included from time to time, but try to keep it in mind please.
Nemo me impune lacesset
     
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Sep 2, 2005, 04:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by mojo2
THIS scenario is what we might face all over the country if our efforts in Iraq were unsuccessful.
If you're unsucessful in Iraq, then more hurricanes will hit the US?

I don't understand your point. What does New Orleans' predicament have to do with Iraq? If you're unsucessful in Iraq, then gas will get expensive, people will start looting and raping each other? Is that what you're suggesting?

You may have noticed that gas is still DOUBLE the price in Europe. And we're not raping and pillaging. You guys can handle $6 a gallon without civilization breaking down. It would have been nice if you'd thought about the environment and becoming more efficient all those years ago when Europeans started reducing their consumption and their emission, but you had a couple of fat years then and you'll have a few thin years when the shock hits. But overall, don't worry, society is not going to break down just because you don't succeed in Iraq.

Besides, you've already failed in Iraq if your measure of success is ensuring oil flow to the US.
     
   
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