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Are you getting the H1N1 vaccine? (Page 4)
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osiris
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Nov 4, 2009, 04:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Adjusting your spine does not affect your wrist or elbow tendons when they are inflamed, torn, hyperextended, or otherwise. Taking an inflammatory, analyzing your posture, then limiting movement of the area is the only proven treatment. Adjusting your neck and back does not do anything except increase your risk of neurological damage.

Claiming to fix tendonitis in the wrist or elbow via adjusting the back would be considered malpractice by any board certified medical professional. Chiropractors want to be accepted as medical professionals, but don't want any of the responsibility that comes with it.
You seem to miss the point - my doctor is also a Medical Doctor - an M.D., and a rather good one. Regardless of what you say, I am cured.
praise be geezus. can I get an amen?
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olePigeon
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Nov 4, 2009, 04:44 PM
 
Hard to convince people who base their opinions on anecdotal evidence. All I can say is good luck.
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sek929
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Nov 4, 2009, 04:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Deep tissue message, physical therapy, and placebo. Chiropractic did not help your father, that's why chiropractors are encouraged to also be a masseuse and/or physical therapist. They use proven methods, then lie to you that chiropractic somehow magically cured you.
So the man my father saw did indeed help him with the above listed methods, thank you for proving my point. His chiro didn't lie to him, in fact he helped my father develop a stretching routine to keep his muscles from tightening over time and mis-aligning his spine again. Seems to me if he was a quack my father would not only still have pain, which he doesn't, or would still be going back on a weekly basis.

You have no idea how tense your muscles can get after 30 years of hard labor, my father's spine was being pulled out of whack by his back muscles. To claim placebo had anything to do with this is ridiculous, this is a smart, no-nonsense man that was about to have to give up his livelihood due to severe pain. This isn't some fat-ass computer software engineer that complains about his knees, this is an extremely healthy man brought back to his prime. You can qualify that any way you wish but it was done under the care of a chiropractor.

I think you've become far to biased based off of bad practitioners and here-say. There are a lot of crappy dentists out there too but that doesn't make cavities bullsh!t. I felt the same way about the idea of a chiropractor at first as you did, but upon seeing the results it's impossible to deny them unless you like sticking your fingers in your ears and staying with your familiar pre-conceived notions.
     
osiris
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Nov 4, 2009, 05:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Hard to convince people who base their opinions on anecdotal evidence. All I can say is good luck.
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olePigeon
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Nov 4, 2009, 05:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
I think you've become far to biased based off of bad practitioners and here-say. There are a lot of crappy dentists out there too but that doesn't make cavities bullsh!t. I felt the same way about the idea of a chiropractor at first as you did, but upon seeing the results it's impossible to deny them unless you like sticking your fingers in your ears and staying with your familiar pre-conceived notions.
Peer reviewed studies. That is the basis of my opinion. Not here-say. Chiropractic is not a medical science because the basic premise for the practice can not be tested. There are bad dentists, but current practices in dentistry were developed through clinical testing and sound scientific analysis.

You can not compare dentistry and chiropractic One is practice developed through the same principals that help us to understand our physical universe, the other requires blind faith in some ridiculous superstition.

Lots of people claim psychics are helpful, or that prayer healing works. I'm not changing my opinion unless these things can be tested. I'm not sticking my fingers in my ears and saying that it's impossible, I just want evidence provided by testing and retesting. Chiropractors can not provide the evidence required, dentists can.

Adjusting the spine to alter mystical energies is bullsh*t. The only thing worse than a chiropractor is one that performs their "adjustments" on an infant, child, or animal.
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Oisín
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Nov 4, 2009, 05:41 PM
 
Adjusting the spine to alter mystical energies is bullsh*t.
Adjusting the spine to correct a misalignment of the spine, however, is not bullsh*t. It is what a physiotherapist or a regular GP would do, too.

Despite the fact that much of what you’re saying about chiropractors and chiropractic in general is true, you are still unfairly biased against them in that you automatically discount any treatment, as long as it is performed by a chiropractor. Deep-tissue massage and physiotherapy can be performed by chiropractors, too, and frequently is.

There is, to my knowledge, no peer-reviewed study that proves that all treatment becomes useless and will only work through placebo effects just because they’re performed by chiropractors.
     
sek929
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Nov 4, 2009, 05:52 PM
 
Well said Oisín, I never heard of anything about mystical energies, my dad said he'd get his spine aligned, and now he feels better. Placebo effect has nothing to do with it and olePigeon obviously has an extreme bias against anything remotely mentioning Chiropractors. I suppose he'd agree with my father being prescribed refined opiates for years instead of a dozen visits to a Chiropractor.

It's hard when someone challenges your set-as-concrete preconceptions. I don't think Chiros are the best healers money can buy, and obviously a problem with your pinky finger will not be cured by alignment of the spine, but severe lower back pain just might, JUST MIGHT, have something to do with the spine, right?
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 4, 2009, 05:54 PM
 
Does the chiropractor use a MAC?
     
osiris
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Nov 4, 2009, 05:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Does the chiropractor use a MAC?
I imagine so, MACs suck.
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sek929
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Nov 4, 2009, 06:00 PM
 
All Chiropractors run Windows ME, have Bose home stereos, drive SUVs, and watch Michael Bay movies.
     
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Nov 4, 2009, 07:08 PM
 
I don't mean to sound condescending, but it's very clear you're being taken in by all this misinformation. If you have questions, seriously, see your doctor. Don't go to some seminar that only exists to sell books.
Well olePigeon, it seems we are looking through two completely different lenses. I for one have studied enough to know that our MEDICAL history has gone through it's own roller coaster ride horror in terms of "therapies" & "claims". All this has done for me is to confirm that for all we know about health, we really know nothing.

I'd love it if you'd remember me in the years to come when our approach to immunizations are being questioned and reconsidered... and DO forgive yourself for being so condescending. I feel the medical body is not superior, they make mistakes too. Just look at the history of mental health interventions. Those medical fellows BELIEVED and practiced treatments that we now know are barbaric. Sorry, I've lost my faith... doesn't mean I don't' see my doctor.

My friend just retired from a full career of nursing (her husband an MD) and they are both telling me that they wouldn't be getting the H1N1 vaccine if they weren't mandated to. My instincts have lead me well in my years ~ I am not about to doubt it.

Smile ~ it's good for you!
     
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Nov 4, 2009, 08:11 PM
 
Anecdote:

Two years ago, I was suffering with cracked hands (through dryness). Had it coming on for years but it was getting unbearably bad. Couldn't play the old banjo because when right hand muting, the cracks on the knife-edge of my hand would catch the strings and said strings would then cut into the flesh. Painful. Similar with the left hand fretting - cut your finger open with a knife then rub a guitar string over the cut to get a similar feeling. Pleasant.

So, went looking for a cure. Discovered that "SLS" and "SLES", the main ingredients in soaps, are basically industrial engine degreaser. Bad sh*t.

Tinfoilhat.com says "SL*S is bad!".
PeerReviewedGovernmentBackedProperDoctor.com says "Tinfoilhat.com is talking BS!".

So, I went with the SL*S free soap for a while. Expensive (since the reason they use SL*S as a foaming agent in the first place is because it's dirt cheap), but hey, work related so...

..within about three weeks of getting off SL*S the cracks disappeared. Haven't returned. Not the slightest sign of any problems popping up again.

So there you go. Actual evidence on my own body that PeerReviewedGovernmentBackedProperDoctor.com doesn't always have your best interests at heart and sometimes, just sometimes, Tinfoilhat.com is correct.

Of course, if you're reading this it's just some anecdote off some dude on the Interwebs. But for me it's first hand evidence sitting there touching the keyboard I'm typing this on.

Make of that what you will.
If anyone thinks I'm BSing, here's a pic of the soap I went onto:



Keep breathing that G-23 paxilon hydrochlorate, kiddies. Breath it in deep.
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kmkkid
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Nov 4, 2009, 10:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by paul w View Post
Complete and utter nonsense. As far as our immune system is concerned, the result is the same whether we have the vaccine or are infected with that particular virus otherwise.
Did you actually have a private discussion with your immune system about that?

We don't know what pumping this **** into our systems will do to us, heck doctors still don't know jack **** about half the meds and additives they feed us daily.
     
kmkkid
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Nov 4, 2009, 10:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
That is pretty much correct. In more serious cases, it is because the recipient was allergic to eggs and developed a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine.

Wait?! What is it now? You CAN, or you CAN'T get sick from the shot?


No back-peddling now.....

No, you can't. Period. The injection does not contain a live version of the virus, it only contains a part of the virus. It's like saying an arm is a person. No, it's an arm. By itself it does not do anything, nor does it even constitute being a person.
I didn't say they got the flu, I said they can get sick.

Flu like symptoms is in fact being sick, allergic reactions far worse than sick....
     
olePigeon
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Nov 5, 2009, 12:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by Oisín View Post
Adjusting the spine to correct a misalignment of the spine, however, is not bullsh*t. It is what a physiotherapist or a regular GP would do, too.
Correct, and that procedure is generally only covered by insurance if it is supported by an x-ray first.

Originally Posted by Oisín View Post
Despite the fact that much of what you’re saying about chiropractors and chiropractic in general is true, you are still unfairly biased against them in that you automatically discount any treatment....
No, no, no. I said I want evidence to support it. I already pointed out that many chiropractors are also masseuses or licensed physical therapist. That is on purpose because it lends a false sense of credibility to chiropractic.

Originally Posted by Oisín View Post
Deep-tissue massage and physiotherapy can be performed by chiropractors, too, and frequently is.
Yes, I mentioned that. That isn't my issue.

Originally Posted by Oisín View Post
There is, to my knowledge, no peer-reviewed study that proves that all treatment becomes useless and will only work through placebo effects just because they’re performed by chiropractors.
That wasn't my argument, my beef is strictly with chiropractic. Chiropractors may offer other services, but chiropractic is complete bullsh*t. Chiropractors push chiropractic as a cure-all, it's nothing but snake oil. I find it detestable that they push it as an alternative to proven medicine.
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olePigeon
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Nov 5, 2009, 12:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by kmkkid View Post
Wait?! What is it now? You CAN, or you CAN'T get sick from the shot?
Being sick is not the same as having an allergic reaction.

Originally Posted by kmkkid View Post
I didn't say they got the flu, I said they can get sick.
OK.
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JellyBeen
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Nov 5, 2009, 12:54 AM
 
olePigeon, why don't you open your own "Bash The Chiro's" thread and let everyone else discuss the topic at hand which is H1N1. Frankly your ignorance and single mindedness
is making me sick.
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Eug
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Nov 5, 2009, 09:29 AM
 
Since we're talking anecdotes...

I am still alive, a week after getting the H1N1 vaccine. No, I am not an internet bot. Honest.

However, like I said, now that I've had the vaccine, there's a very, very strong chance I will die within the next 70 years.
     
osiris
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Nov 5, 2009, 10:21 AM
 
Now that's what I call a sticky situation.
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The Final Dakar
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Nov 5, 2009, 10:25 AM
 
RIP Eug
     
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Nov 5, 2009, 10:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Anecdote:

...my hand would catch the strings and said strings would then cut into the flesh. Painful... So, went looking for a cure. Discovered that "SLS" and "SLES", the main ingredients in soaps, are basically industrial engine degreaser. Bad sh*t. Tinfoilhat.com says "SL*S is bad!". PeerReviewedGovernmentBackedProperDoctor.com says "Tinfoilhat.com is talking BS!". Keep breathing that G-23 paxilon hydrochlorate, kiddies. Breath it in deep.
Your story is a perfect example ~ as is every similar story. I'd love to see a 'study' of success stories to see the percentage of alternative & complementary approached successes... but I'm sure that would never be ALLOWED to happen. There seems to be a "fortress" built to protect the integrity of the "system" at all cost. I think it's interesting: that a person would stand behind peer reviews and papers with such loyalty for the fortress, and close their minds to anything else; and, that testimonials like yours may hold zero weight without a doctors stamp of approval. It's sickening.

I have strong beliefs in the importance of the Medical Model, no doubt about that BUT I hear this kind of stuff ALL the time. This is evidence based and confirms my doubts... and for me, serves to build my case: that the medical field's capacity to focus on how to truly serve our needs is limited, and fragmented, and skewed to appear integral while serving a higher need.

Disease is an industry that will continue to sustain the system... it's not in their best interest to bring the world into health. If that were the case, Doctors would be advocating for the "SLS" and "SLES" to be banned along with every other kind of toxic or questionable product that comes near the human body or our food. ie: For generations it's been recommended to slather babies bottoms with petroleum jelly, several times a day - every day ! I shutter to think what those little bottoms and reproductive organs are ingesting? [shakes her head]

Let's face it ~ that fortress has been following their own dangling carrots ~ and most of us donkeys are convinced that it's the only direction.
     
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Nov 5, 2009, 10:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Tinfoilhat.com says "SL*S is bad!".
PeerReviewedGovernmentBackedProperDoctor.com says "Tinfoilhat.com is talking BS!".
Address Not Found

Firefox can't find the server at www.peerreviewedgovernmentbackedproperdoctor.com.

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SpaceMonkey
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Nov 5, 2009, 10:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Rainbow-Rider View Post
For generations it's been recommended to slather babies bottoms with petroleum jelly, several times a day - every day ! I shutter to think what those little bottoms and reproductive organs are ingesting? [shakes her head]
Not to mention how flammable they become.

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olePigeon
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Nov 5, 2009, 12:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by JellyBeen View Post
olePigeon, why don't you open your own "Bash The Chiro's" thread
I would never make a thread with a misused apostrophe.

Originally Posted by JellyBeen View Post
Frankly your ignorance and single mindedness is making me sick.
Your personal attacks are well and fun, but they're meaningless if you can't support them. My opinion is not set in stone, you're welcome to correct me.
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Eug
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Nov 5, 2009, 12:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Rainbow-Rider View Post
Disease is an industry that will continue to sustain the system... it's not in their best interest to bring the world into health. If that were the case, Doctors would be advocating for the "SLS" and "SLES" to be banned along with every other kind of toxic or questionable product that comes near the human body or our food.
That's an argument that the tinfoil hat types like to repeat ad nauseum, but I really don't understand why.

To put it in real practical terms: It's just a component of soap, and it does its job well. It's too harsh for some people, so those people shouldn't use it. For other people it's just fine. End of story.

I personally hate strongly scented soaps, so I don't use them. They're fine for others.


Originally Posted by Rainbow-Rider View Post
For generations it's been recommended to slather babies bottoms with petroleum jelly, several times a day - every day ! I shutter to think what those little bottoms and reproductive organs are ingesting? [shakes her head]
     
olePigeon
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Nov 5, 2009, 01:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Rainbow-Rider View Post
...but I'm sure that would never be ALLOWED to happen.
You would be wrong. For the parts that can be tested (like "natural remedies"), they are tested constantly in double blind studies; the result is that they don't do anything. That is why they're sold as food supplements instead of as prescription drugs. Unfortunately people die every year by taking that crap under the assumption that, "Hey, a little bit of arsenic is good for you, obviously a LOT is even better!"

If there was a magic pill that burned fat, reversed aging, grew hair, and increased your penis size by four inches, trust me, it'd be all over the news and a few guys would get the Nobel prize in Chemistry. As it stands, there isn't one. No, there isn't some global conspiracy by doctors for some natural cure for diabetes that "they don't want you to know about!" By simple probability there is a small percentage of people who claim it worked because their condition was subdued or went away. That's how the universe works.

Originally Posted by Rainbow-Rider View Post
I think it's interesting: that a person would stand behind peer reviews and papers with such loyalty for the fortress, and close their minds to anything else...
I don't close my mind to anything else, I said I want evidence. I want testing, then those results tested and verified. My opinion on subjects changes as new evidence is presented.

Originally Posted by Rainbow-Rider View Post
...and, that testimonials like yours may hold zero weight without a doctors stamp of approval. It's sickening.
Anecdotal evidence is the worst kind of evidence, and no, it doesn't hold much weight. If you want to convince me, form a hypothesis, test the theory, verify the results with your peers, then publish the results in a science journal.

Originally Posted by Rainbow-Rider View Post
I have strong beliefs in the importance of the Medical Model, no doubt about that BUT I hear this kind of stuff ALL the time. This is evidence based and confirms my doubts ...
There is no evidence, it's completely here say.

Originally Posted by Rainbow-Rider View Post
... and for me, serves to build my case: that the medical field's capacity to focus on how to truly serve our needs is limited, and fragmented, and skewed to appear integral while serving a higher need.
Pseudoscience exists to comfort you when you don't like what the universe has to offer.

Originally Posted by Rainbow-Rider View Post
Disease is an industry that will continue to sustain the system... it's not in their best interest to bring the world into health.
If you say so. I'm done here.
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Doofy
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Nov 5, 2009, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
To put it in real practical terms: It's just a component of soap, and it does its job well. It's too harsh for some people, so those people shouldn't use it. For other people it's just fine. End of story.
No.

If you want to believe that it's the end of the story Eug, then that's up to you. If you want to carry on taking that blue pill, go right ahead. Just know that there's alternatives to the crap "the system" sells you - just as there's alternatives to the crap which Microsoft tries to sell you.
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Laminar
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Nov 5, 2009, 01:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
No.

If you want to believe that it's the end of the story Eug, then that's up to you. If you want to carry on taking that blue pill, go right ahead. Just know that there's alternatives to the crap "the system" sells you - just as there's alternatives to the crap which Microsoft tries to sell you.
What part of what Eug said is untrue? Is it not true that soaps work for a majority of people?
     
Doofy
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Nov 5, 2009, 02:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
What part of what Eug said is untrue?
"End of story".

Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Is it not true that soaps work for a majority of people?
It's true. But at what cost? SL*S is known to cause certain types of cancer and mess with your hormones. It'll get you clean, sure, but what about your health?

There's no doubt that the H1N1 will stop you from getting a mild flu. But at what cost?
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Laminar
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Nov 5, 2009, 02:06 PM
 
That's why I never use soap.
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 5, 2009, 02:08 PM
 
Yeah, I pretty much forgot people use soap.
     
Doofy
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Nov 5, 2009, 02:16 PM
 
You're really telling me that in the land of the free you can't get SL*S-free soap?
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
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The Final Dakar
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Nov 5, 2009, 02:20 PM
 
Yeah, I didn't even say anything close to that.
     
Laminar
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Nov 5, 2009, 02:36 PM
 
But at least we have our many and varied freedoms.
     
osiris
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Nov 5, 2009, 02:41 PM
 
When take my bi-annual bath, I use Dove (That's SLS & SLES free).
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paul w
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Nov 5, 2009, 02:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
"the system"
What is the Matrix?
     
Eug
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Nov 5, 2009, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
When take my bi-annual bath, I use Dove (That's SLS & SLES free).
Heh. Not even semiannual?

Anyways, there isn't really any good evidence that sodium laurel sulphate causes cancer in humans. And even if it did, there are MUCH bigger issues people should be worrying about. Like smoking. Like that daily overdose of fries for lunch. Or even getting bacterial infections from not using soap.

People worry about the strangest things. I've known people who have gone on and on about the risk of brain cancer from cell phones or autoimmune disease from breast implants, but continue to smoke.

     
osiris
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Nov 5, 2009, 03:00 PM
 
How about the American Diet? That is a killer right there.
"Faster, faster! 'Till the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." - HST
     
Laminar
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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Nov 5, 2009, 03:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by paul w View Post
What is the Matrix?
This would be a joke, except for Doofy's continued references to taking blue or red colored pills.
     
kangbroke
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Nov 7, 2009, 12:29 PM
 
Watch a video on YouTube about a Washington Redskins Cheerleader who got the shot and it effected her nervous system and she will never be normal again
     
cjrivera
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Nov 7, 2009, 03:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by kangbroke View Post
Watch a video on YouTube about a Washington Redskins Cheerleader who got the shot and it effected her nervous system and she will never be normal again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP0QY...layer_embedded

Desiree Jennings "cured" of her "vaccine-induced dystonia"? : Respectful Insolence
"It's weird the way 'finger puppets' sounds ok as a noun..."
     
 
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