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"Macs don't get those cryptic error messages"
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Wiskedjak
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Apr 16, 2007, 10:55 PM
 
Truth in advertising?
http://movies.apple.com/movies/us/ap...rt_480x376.mov
http://forums.macnn.com/66/ibook-and.../kernal-panic/

Sometimes I like the Get a Mac ads. Sometimes they're true, but sometimes they are clearly not. This one is clearly not honest.
     
Dakarʒ
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Apr 16, 2007, 10:56 PM
 
error -42. Could not bother taking the time to watch.
     
voodoo
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Apr 16, 2007, 10:58 PM
 
To be fair, Kernel Panics aren't error messages. They are a complete system shut-down.

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Lateralus
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Apr 16, 2007, 11:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Sometimes I like the Get a Mac ads. Sometimes they're true, but sometimes they are clearly not. This one is clearly not honest.
They're only not honest if you have no clue what a kernel panic is.
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Wiskedjak  (op)
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Apr 16, 2007, 11:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
They're only not honest if you have no clue what a kernel panic is.
And really, how many Mac users outside of MacNN do?
     
Gossamer
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Apr 16, 2007, 11:15 PM
 
Also, the trial software one bugs me. Macs clearly come with both Office and iWork trials.
     
CharlesS
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Apr 16, 2007, 11:38 PM
 
Yeah, that's something I hope changes soon. My iMac came with a full copy of AppleWorks back in 2005. iWork is supposed to replace it, so it should come with the full version preinstalled like AppleWorks used to. Then, it would maybe get enough of an installed base to be taken seriously.

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Lateralus
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Apr 16, 2007, 11:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
And really, how many Mac users outside of MacNN do?
There's ignorant people everywhere. Doesn't mean Apple is lying though.
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Gossamer
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Apr 17, 2007, 12:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
Yeah, that's something I hope changes soon. My iMac came with a full copy of AppleWorks back in 2005. iWork is supposed to replace it, so it should come with the full version preinstalled like AppleWorks used to. Then, it would maybe get enough of an installed base to be taken seriously.
If everything "just works," am I expected to type my papers in Textedit?
     
Wiskedjak  (op)
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Apr 17, 2007, 12:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
There's ignorant people everywhere. Doesn't mean Apple is lying though.
So, nobody knows what a Windows error message means?
     
analogika
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Apr 17, 2007, 02:50 AM
 
Kernel panics generally only happen with broken hardware.

IOW, most users will go through their Mac-using life never seeing one.

IOW, it's a generalization, but as such, not untrue.
     
Chuckit
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Apr 17, 2007, 03:02 AM
 
To call a kernel panic an "error dialog" is like calling your car airbag a "confirmation window."
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Apr 17, 2007, 03:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
And really, how many Mac users outside of MacNN do?
Anybody who has used a Unix based OS for awhile knows what they are.
Signature depreciated.
     
Peter
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Apr 17, 2007, 04:13 AM
 
oh yeah and thats like a massive percentage of all computer users.
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Wiskedjak  (op)
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Apr 17, 2007, 08:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by C.A.T.S. CEO View Post
Anybody who has used a Unix based OS for awhile knows what they are.
Exactly my point. I suspect there are an equal number of people who can decipher Windows error messages.
     
Person Man
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Apr 17, 2007, 09:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer View Post
Also, the trial software one bugs me. Macs clearly come with both Office and iWork trials.
And do those trials wrap their tendrils in every nook and cranny of the OS such that they slow down the boot process of the OS? No. Are they hard to uninstall? No. Do they break the OS in some way when you try to uninstall them? No.

Do they leave crap behind when being uninstalled (other than preference files)? No.

There's trial software, and then there's annoying-crap-that-most-people-don't-need-but-45-different-companies-paid-to-have-their-stuff-preinstalled-so-the-user-only-paid-$400-for-their-system-instead-of-$800 software.

BIG difference.
     
Chuckit
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Apr 17, 2007, 10:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Exactly my point. I suspect there are an equal number of people who can decipher Windows error messages.
It's not that people can decipher them; it's that anybody with a clue realizes they're not error dialogues.
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Apr 17, 2007, 10:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer View Post
Also, the trial software one bugs me. Macs clearly come with both Office and iWork trials.
Yeah, and even after installing the full version of Office, the trial version insists on launching (and must be manually deleted)
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Apr 17, 2007, 10:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
And do those trials wrap their tendrils in every nook and cranny of the OS such that they slow down the boot process of the OS? No. Are they hard to uninstall? No. Do they break the OS in some way when you try to uninstall them? No.

Do they leave crap behind when being uninstalled (other than preference files)? No.

There's trial software, and then there's annoying-crap-that-most-people-don't-need-but-45-different-companies-paid-to-have-their-stuff-preinstalled-so-the-user-only-paid-$400-for-their-system-instead-of-$800 software.

BIG difference.
That is all true.... makes my little Office problem seem insignificant....
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Chuckit
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Apr 17, 2007, 10:45 AM
 
Yeah, that annoys the hell out of me every time we get a new computer at work. I always forget to delete the silly demo version.
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Apr 17, 2007, 11:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
To call a kernel panic an "error dialog" is like calling your car airbag a "confirmation window."
You know what? You're completely right, but in a way that doesn't help. For someone who is an average user, when their computer stops working, and displays a cryptic comment they don't understand, whether or not it is an error dialogue or a system shutdown is irrelevant. Their computer is not doing what they want it to do and is not explaining in normal english why not.
     
Gossamer
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Apr 17, 2007, 11:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
You know what? You're completely right, but in a way that doesn't help. For someone who is an average user, when their computer stops working, and displays a cryptic comment they don't understand, whether or not it is an error dialogue or a system shutdown is irrelevant. Their computer is not doing what they want it to do and is not explaining in normal english why not.
Fortunately Kernel panics use not only English, but several other languages as well!
     
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Apr 17, 2007, 03:22 PM
 
Apple has been guilty of disingenuous advertising for years, but so have a number of other companies. As long as their is some partial truth in there enough for a statement to be legally acceptable, I suppose this is enough for most companies. It does affect their sense of credibility and integrity though, for those of us in the know.
     
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Apr 17, 2007, 03:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
And do those trials wrap their tendrils in every nook and cranny of the OS such that they slow down the boot process of the OS? No. Are they hard to uninstall? No. Do they break the OS in some way when you try to uninstall them? No.

Do they leave crap behind when being uninstalled (other than preference files)? No.

There's trial software, and then there's annoying-crap-that-most-people-don't-need-but-45-different-companies-paid-to-have-their-stuff-preinstalled-so-the-user-only-paid-$400-for-their-system-instead-of-$800 software.

BIG difference.
No? /SARCASM]
     
mdc
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Apr 18, 2007, 11:54 AM
 
I agree with Person Man on the Office and iWorks trials.
When someone turns their Mac on for the first time neither of these applications run, they sit in the Applications folder (any icons by default for these in the dock? I can't remember) and the only negative thing they do is take up space.

What the advert was talking about on the PC side of things is when you turn on your new PC for the first time the system tray (and msconfig > start up) has loads of applications all running when your PC boots and while it's running. These applications are taking up harddrive space (maybe not as much as Office and iWorks) and they are running continuously using cpu cycles and memory. Most of the things that run in the system tray are absolutely pointless. Take these that I have seen first hand. Adobe/HP/[insert company here] software updater. Printer status applications. An application that offers to control your wireless networking (joining networks, etc) instead of Windows. Cingular has another one that runs that will tell you your network connectivity; which Windows is already doing regardless.
Then there are the actually useful ones... for some people. Windows Messenger runs, but not everyone uses that.

My point is that Windows installations are full of crap that is set to run. Yeah, Mac OS comes with applications but all they're doing wrong is taking up some harddrive space, and dragging a folder to the trash is a lot easier than start > control panel > add remove programs > and uninstalling each thing you don't want, and then start > run > msconfig and making sure other things aren't starting up.
     
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Apr 18, 2007, 12:32 PM
 
It's not the trail software that's the problem. It's the installed programs that sit in your system tray, toolbars and other junk that takes up memory and resources because it is RUNNING all the time.

Mac programs just take up harddrive space. Trash 'em and you're good.

But Macs DO have cryptic error messages, but you see them far less.

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Apr 18, 2007, 12:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eriamjh View Post
But Macs DO have cryptic error messages, but you see them far less.
And I wasn't responding to that. I was responding to the person who said Macs come with trial software.
     
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Apr 18, 2007, 01:56 PM
 
Aren't the kernel panics all nice and pretty now? With a message that says "You need to restart your computer" in several languages. What's cryptic about that??
     
Wiskedjak  (op)
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Apr 18, 2007, 02:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by mdc View Post
My point is that Windows installations are full of crap that is set to run. Yeah, Mac OS comes with applications but all they're doing wrong is taking up some harddrive space, and dragging a folder to the trash is a lot easier than start > control panel > add remove programs > and uninstalling each thing you don't want, and then start > run > msconfig and making sure other things aren't starting up.
Actually, Windows OS does not install trial software. Dell, HP, Sony, etc install trial software. Whether or not trial software is installed is entirely dependent on the manufacturer of the computer. My PC had no trial software on it.
     
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Apr 18, 2007, 02:48 PM
 
<snip>

I'm not an Apple fanboy. I am equal rights computer user, and that makes me a brainwashed idiot who's too stupid to not use Windows.

Which is unfortunate. But I'm happy with my use of Linux, Windows, and OS X, and I'm not interested in defending why I do what I do to a bunch of faceless people on a message forum any longer.

Sorry!
( Last edited by shifuimam; Apr 18, 2007 at 04:20 PM. )
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Apr 18, 2007, 02:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
It seems like a lot of the ads compare OS X to the functionality in Windows 98, and that's just really misleading.
These ads are not for people who have never used Windows. If they really didn't reflect a significant number of people's experience with Windows, they wouldn't be effective. They are, thus people are apparently agreeing with the ads. (Also, I can't think of many ads that fit what you're talking about at all.)
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Apr 18, 2007, 02:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Speaking of which, it's also crappy that the movie editing and music software doesn't come with OS X anymore. Windows natively includes both.
It doesn't need to come with the OS. It comes with the computer.
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Apr 18, 2007, 03:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Which is why I refuse to watch Apple commercials thse days. Come on - the thing about how a digital camera "just works" with a Mac? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Scanner & Camera Wizard in Windows XP makes it incredibly easy to transfer pictures to your computer, and it lets you have more control over the file names and locations than iPhoto could ever hope to do.
It's quite possible to use Image Capture to import your photos, and you can choose any location to import to. iPhoto specifically asks you the first time if you'd like to have it open every time you connect a digital camera, so it's not like you're locked into iPhoto from the beginning.
     
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Apr 18, 2007, 03:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Speaking of which, it's also crappy that the movie editing and music software doesn't come with OS X anymore. Windows natively includes both.
This is FUD.

Apple never bundled iLife with OS X.

iLife does ship on consumer-level computers, AND on pro-level systems.
     
shifuimam
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Apr 18, 2007, 03:50 PM
 
Derailing is rude, and I'm not Rob.

Sorry.
( Last edited by shifuimam; Apr 18, 2007 at 04:12 PM. )
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shifuimam
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Apr 18, 2007, 03:55 PM
 
Zomg The Train Is Headed Right For The Town!
( Last edited by shifuimam; Apr 18, 2007 at 04:11 PM. )
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Chuckit
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Apr 18, 2007, 04:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
I am not impressed with Apple's OS upgrade scheme. They release a new OS version every year
This math is lacking. 30 months (the interval between 10.4 and 10.5) == 1 year?

Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
and each upgrade requires paying for it. Some have compared it to buying a version of Windows that is released every five years or so. If you buy a new Mac, you get the newest version of the OS. Any real functionality upgrades (like Dashboard or Spotlight or the changes to the Dock through the first versions of OS X) are only available by buying a new computer, or paying $130 for the latest version of the OS.

Conversely, if you buy a new computer that comes with Windows, functionality upgrades like the security center, windows firewall, windows wireless utility, and movie maker 2 are available as free updates from Microsoft. You can continue to run Windows XP and be up-to-date for five years without ever paying for an OS upgrade
This comparison is lacking. You pay more for Windows. Windows gives you less to begin with. You get a few things free after the large up-front price (like ZOMG A WIRELESS UTILITY?!?!?!), but they're still much less than what you get with OS X, so you're paying less for the upgrades and getting less from them.
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Apr 18, 2007, 04:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
i installed 10.3 on my iBook from RETAIL CDs, and it came with iPhoto, iMovie, and iTunes. I didn't have to do anything special to get those apps. They were included with OS X or were free back then.

Via Wikipedia: The first versions of iMovie, iTunes, iPhoto, iDVD, GarageBand and iWeb were released in that order. The first three programs were originally available free via Apple's website, while iDVD was available only with computers that included SuperDrives.

So it sucks that you have to pay now to upgrade iPhoto and iMovie. That's all I'm saying.
I guess your right.

Go have fun using your Windows XP computer.
     
shifuimam
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Apr 18, 2007, 04:10 PM
 
I've derailed this thread. Sorry about that.
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Apr 18, 2007, 04:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
I am not impressed with Apple's OS upgrade scheme. They release a new OS version every year, and each upgrade requires paying for it.
10.0 - March 24, 2001
10.1 -September 25, 2001 Free Upgrade
17 Months Later...

10.2 - August 24, 2002
14 Months Later...

10.3 - October 24, 2003
14 Months Later...

10.4 - April 29, 2005
23+ Months Later...

10.5...

Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Some have compared it to buying a version of Windows that is released every five years or so....
Not this old debate again. Apple is a Hardware AND Software company. They have a different pricing structure.

Windows 2000 was released on February 17, 2000. Look how far Microsoft has come in all 7 of those years... IMHO, NOT very far. Sure XP/Vista are improvements... but what does Windows 2000 have over Vista for the end user... I can name TONS of VERY functional components of OS X.
     
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Apr 18, 2007, 04:40 PM
 
Looks like shifuimam pulled a macgeek2005 on us.
     
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Apr 18, 2007, 04:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
And do those trials wrap their tendrils in every nook and cranny of the OS such that they slow down the boot process of the OS? No. Are they hard to uninstall? No. Do they break the OS in some way when you try to uninstall them? No.

Do they leave crap behind when being uninstalled (other than preference files)? No.

There's trial software, and then there's annoying-crap-that-most-people-don't-need-but-45-different-companies-paid-to-have-their-stuff-preinstalled-so-the-user-only-paid-$400-for-their-system-instead-of-$800 software.

BIG difference.
This person is right.

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Apr 18, 2007, 04:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
Yeah, and even after installing the full version of Office, the trial version insists on launching (and must be manually deleted)
If you read the text file that comes in that Office trial folder, it tells you how to remove the trial-with one double-click. Not rocket science. It does NOT need to be manually deleted unless you fail to read the instructions and install Full Office over the trial.

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Apr 18, 2007, 05:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Actually, Windows OS does not install trial software. Dell, HP, Sony, etc install trial software. Whether or not trial software is installed is entirely dependent on the manufacturer of the computer. My PC had no trial software on it.
Yeah, sorry. I didn't realized it came off like that.
I agree, Windows OS is not installing anything, it's all the "big" computer manufacturers who are doing it.
The reason I mentioned it is because I think that is who Apple is talking about in the "stuffed" advert and oppositely Apple is a "big" computer manufacturer and the worst you're getting with them is a little lost hard drive space.
     
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Apr 18, 2007, 05:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
Looks like shifuimam pulled a macgeek2005 on us.
I'm surprised she didn't use the word "sheeple."
     
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Apr 18, 2007, 05:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
This is FUD.

Apple never bundled iLife with OS X.

iLife does ship on consumer-level computers, AND on pro-level systems.
I'm pretty sure iPhoto (and perhaps even iMovie 2) was included in OS X before Apple started selling it.

Sure, it wasn't the entire iLife suite, but it was parts of it.
     
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Apr 18, 2007, 09:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob View Post
I'm pretty sure iPhoto (and perhaps even iMovie 2) was included in OS X before Apple started selling it.

Sure, it wasn't the entire iLife suite, but it was parts of it.
You must have missed the part where I said to her:

Originally Posted by me
I guess your right.
     
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Apr 18, 2007, 09:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Gossamer View Post
I'm surprised she didn't use the word "sheeple."
Or "security reasons".

Ah... those were good times.
     
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Apr 20, 2007, 07:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
Kernel panics generally only happen with broken hardware.
Not quite. Kernel panics happen with buggy drivers too. Regardless, kernel panics can't be expected to give friendly error messages other than "Restart your Computer" - the system has shut down at this point, it can't go looking up a table of friendly error messages.
     
ebuddy
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Apr 22, 2007, 09:52 AM
 
You don't get buggy error messages, but sometimes... the monitor just won't come on. Nobody knows what the heck it is and you won't see an error message unless your monitor comes on. Sometimes it will properly wake from sleep. Sometimes it won't wake from sleep, but the fans are loud enough to wake my wife up.

- you may get a kernal panic when you cause hardware problems like... upgrading your OS.
- sometimes laptops made of titanium like the space shuttle have hinges made of plastic and break when you abuse them like... opening them from time to time.
- sometimes people believe they're buying a 3-year warranty when really it's a two year warranty, post-1 year manufacturer warranty. Who does this???


Don't get me wrong; I love nothing more than the 3 Macs I own, but I get tired of seeing comparisons between Apple and PC manufacturers. I've had plenty-o-trouble with these costly machines.
ebuddy
     
 
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