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Kerrigan · Apr 22, 2009, 11:52 AM

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f.../iceland200904

Iceland (the country that is completely bankrupt due to relying on too much foreign credit) evidently has a secret belief.

“A 2007 University of Iceland poll found that, while few people will go on the record to say they believe in elves, 54 percent of the Icelandic population will not deny that they exist."

This finding comes alongside the revelation that an Icelandic company called Alcoa paid surveyors to determine that there were no elves living on or beneath a plot of land before building there.

Perhaps the Icelanders are expecting elves to give them a magical credit bailout from their leader, Santa Claus?

SpaceMonkey · Apr 22, 2009, 12:03 PM

Fascinating. To nitpick, though: Alcoa is an American company.

Eug · Apr 22, 2009, 12:10 PM

Somehow that doesn't come as a surprise.

Or is that a pixie?

Kerrigan · Apr 22, 2009, 12:11 PM

It actually seems somewhat reasonable to me. By their definition, elves are "hidden people," so it is not illogical to say that you cannot categorically rule out their existence.

SpaceMonkey · 12:23 PM

But that would make the practice of hiring a government surveyor kind of pointless, then. I wonder how they do it. Look for elf droppings?

olePigeon · Apr 22, 2009, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Perhaps the Icelanders are expecting elves to give them a magical credit bailout from their leader, Santa Claus?

The concept of elves is older than that of God. Pretty hypocritical of you to make fun of a superstition that is, if anything, even more credible than that of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

sek929 · Apr 22, 2009, 12:47 PM

My house is built on a foundation of Elf bones, keeps the Grendel at bay.

CharlesS · Apr 22, 2009, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

It actually seems somewhat reasonable to me. By their definition, elves are "hidden people," so it is not illogical to say that you cannot categorically rule out their existence.

Wouldn't that make them "elf-agnostic" then though?

Doofy · Apr 22, 2009, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

This finding comes alongside the revelation that an Icelandic company called Alcoa paid surveyors to determine that there were no elves living on or beneath a plot of land before building there.

This is bizarre.

I mean, they're looking for elves, not pixies or fairies. Elves are pretty hard to miss, what with being between 5' and 7' tall.
Here's one standing next to a human:

See? Not really that hard to figure out if there's elves around. Plus, they're pretty good at English so it's usually quite easy to ask them if they're living somewhere.

olePigeon · Apr 22, 2009, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by sek929

My house is built on a foundation of Elf bones, keeps the Grendel at bay.

Built on top of Elf bones, eh? Interesting.

...

Ever see the movie Poltergeist?

sek929 · Apr 22, 2009, 01:18 PM

Homer angrily dials the phone.

"Mr. Bloot? Homer Simpson here. When you sold me this house, you forgot to
mention one little thing: YOU DIDN'T TELL ME IT WAS BUILT ON AN INDIAN BURIAL
GROUND!

...NO YOU DIDN'T!...

Well, that's not my recollection. ...
Yeah? Well, all right, goodbye! [angrily hangs up]
He said he mentioned it five or six times."

Laminar · Apr 22, 2009, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

The concept of elves is older than that of God. Pretty hypocritical of you to make fun of a superstition that is, if anything, even more credible than that of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

Credibility is based on age?

olePigeon · Apr 22, 2009, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Laminar

Credibility is based on age?

Meh. Hard to say. The point I was making is that belief in a god is no more or less credible than belief in elves. I think it's pretty silly for any religious person to make fun of other beliefs when their very own is no more relevant. It's typical pot/kettle.

Oisín · Apr 22, 2009, 02:08 PM

*groan*

Not this again.

Shaddim · Apr 22, 2009, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

I think it's pretty silly for any religious person to make fun of other beliefs when their very own is no more relevant. It's typical pot/kettle.

I actually agree with this. Shocking.

Kerrigan · Apr 22, 2009, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

The concept of elves is older than that of God. Pretty hypocritical of you to make fun of a superstition that is, if anything, even more credible than that of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

Would you take your elf-religion flamebait somewhere else? No one here wants to get into that discussion.

Oisín · Apr 22, 2009, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Would you take your elf-religion flamebait somewhere else? No one here wants to get into that discussion.

So what is this thread about, then?

Those completely ridiculous (and untrue) claims that "Half of Iceland believes in elves" and that "Alcoa paid surveyors to determine that there were no elves living on or beneath a plot of land before building there"?

They're both (deliberate) distortions of rather unremarkable truths.

Eug · Apr 22, 2009, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Oisín

So what is this thread about, then?

Those completely ridiculous (and untrue) claims that "Half of Iceland believes in elves" and that "Alcoa paid surveyors to determine that there were no elves living on or beneath a plot of land before building there"?

They're both (deliberate) distortions of rather unremarkable truths.

If a distortion, it still has a basis in truth.

Global Psyche: Magic Kingdom

Only 3 percent of Icelanders lay claim to personal encounters, but 8 percent believe in them outright and 54 percent won't deny their existence, reveals a poll conducted in 2007 by Terry Gunnell, head of folkloristics at the University of Iceland. "Rather than believe," he explains, "they don't disbelieve."

So, 8% believe in them, and 54% are elf agnostics. I personally find that kind of surprising.

P.S. Here is a NY Times article from 2005.

olePigeon · Apr 22, 2009, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Would you take your elf-religion flamebait somewhere else? No one here wants to get into that discussion.

You're the one who made a thread making fun of a culture's beliefs. If this was making fun of Christians it'd be in the PWL. Since it doesn't affect you personally, I'm sure it's hilarious.

Reminds me of Isaac Hayes. It's all fun and games until they make fun of his religion.

Doofy · Apr 22, 2009, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

You're the one who made a thread making fun of a culture's beliefs.

That'd make for an awfully dour lounge. Anyone could claim anything was a deep-seated belief and stop the conversation right there.

For example, I personally believe that New Zealand doesn't actually exist - it's just an elaborate promotional ploy by the Tasmanian Sheep Marketing Board. Anyone claiming to be from New Zealand is obviously in the employ of said Marketing Board. Anyone claiming that they've been to New Zealand wasn't actually looking at the GPS and making sure the pilot wasn't dropping them somewhere in Oz, or else they're contracted to the TSMB to keep to false-disclosure terms.
And we'll see where that goes. Got to be better than where it's already going.

Shaddim · Apr 22, 2009, 04:40 PM

Oisín · Apr 22, 2009, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

If a distortion, it still has a basis in truth.

Global Psyche: Magic Kingdom

Only 3 percent of Icelanders lay claim to personal encounters, but 8 percent believe in them outright and 54 percent won't deny their existence, reveals a poll conducted in 2007 by Terry Gunnell, head of folkloristics at the University of Iceland. "Rather than believe," he explains, "they don't disbelieve."

So, 8% believe in them, and 54% are elf agnostics. I personally find that kind of surprising.

P.S. Here is a NY Times article from 2005.

The thing that's missing here is a definition of what the huldufólk actually are. Many Icelanders would probably only believe (or not disbelieve) in fylgjur, which are miles away from the general American/English definition of 'elves'. Have you never heard old people who've lost their spouses say that they can feel their spouse with them every day? That would be one kind of a fylgja in Iceland, and the 54 per cent of people who don't disbelieve in 'elves' includes people who just believe that someone's 'spirit' or 'soul' can stay with you even after they're dead—something which is not all that uncommon outside Iceland, either.

And the Alcoa thing was only very tangentially even related to elves. There was a good article by Jonas Moody in the NY Mag, which explains the situation rather neatly:

Right. I’ve heard the elf thing mentioned in tired travel articles (normally wedged between paragraphs on the beauty of waterfalls and tips for eating ram testicles), but I personally know no one on this island who believes in elves. Not one. As for Alcoa, their rep believes Lewis is likely referring to a law regarding environmental-impact assessments. The assessment includes an archaeological survey to ensure no important artifacts or ruins are destroyed, and the site’s history is also surveyed to see if it was ever named in any Icelandic folklore. And yes, some of that folklore involves elves. But if you’re going to introduce the notion that some kind of Ministry of Elf Inspection exists within the ranks of the Icelandic government, you might as well also note that we take the Hogwart’s Express to the office every day.

olePigeon · Apr 22, 2009, 05:28 PM

Complete rubbish. Everyone knows Hogwarts Express is in London.

Spheric Harlot · Apr 22, 2009, 05:31 PM

I believe in Elvis, too.

Kerrigan · Apr 22, 2009, 05:54 PM

I have a strong suspicion that there is a negative correlation between "having a satisfying social life involving sex with attractive partners" and "finding conversations about elves to be no laughing matter."

Railroader · Apr 22, 2009, 10:58 PM

I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me.

Tiresias · Apr 23, 2009, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Wouldn't that make them "elf-agnostic" then though?

Thank you.

Kerrigan · Apr 23, 2009, 12:26 AM

"new trend"?

Jawbone54 · Apr 23, 2009, 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

"new trend"?

I'm surprised a few thousand Star Trek fans haven't already had this done.

Shaddim · Apr 23, 2009, 01:22 AM

I hope my wife doesn't see that.

Andy8 · Apr 23, 2009, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

"new trend"?

Looks a bit like Mrs. Shrek.

- - e r i k - - · Apr 23, 2009, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by Laminar

Credibility is based on age?

This seems to be the main argument from religious and new age people yes.

Laminar · Apr 23, 2009, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

This seems to be the main argument from religious and new age people yes.

Which ones again?

Jawbone54 · Apr 23, 2009, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

This seems to be the main argument from religious and new age people yes.

Hrrmmm....I thought it was science that said that...

Empathy
Neocortex
Good Judgment

kikkoman · Apr 23, 2009, 12:28 PM

I believe all elves come from Iceland.

Kerrigan · Apr 23, 2009, 01:11 PM

I understand that the elves come from folklore, but are elves present in Norse mythology as well? Norse mythology is one of those things that has always piqued my curiosity, but I have never had the time (or opportunity) to study it.

Oisín · Apr 23, 2009, 06:48 PM

They do show up in Norse mythology, but unlike many other ‘peoples’ there (like the Æsir and the Vanir), they’re never really described or defined, so they were probably extrapolations of a more common and universal part of Germanic folklore and superstition. [more]

Wiskedjak · Apr 23, 2009, 08:04 PM

I can't say that elves don't exist, anymore than I can say that God or aliens don't exist.

Laminar · Apr 23, 2009, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

I can't say that elves don't exist, anymore than I can say that God or aliens don't exist.

Welcome to reply #5.

- - e r i k - - · Apr 24, 2009, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by Laminar

Which ones again?

It is very common. The "ancient knowledge" fallacy for example:

Ancient Knowledge

The tendency, and usually fallacy, that the ancients have some advanced knowledge that the moderns no longer posses. Umberto Eco writes about this in Serendipities: Language and Lunacy, on p.127:

If we take a look at the text in which Maistre discussed at greatest length the nature of languages, [...] we see that the first declarations simple repropose what is found even today among authors who hark back to tradition as the source of all knowledge, opposing the degenerate learning of a secularized culture, 'modern,' 'enlightened,' or 'scientistic.' "Listen to wise antiquity on the subject of the first men; it will tell you that they were wondrous and that beings of a higher order deigned to favor them with the most precious of revelations. On this point all agree, the initiates, the philosophers, the poets, history, legend: Asia and Europe have a sole voice.

When Eco mentioned that it's "found even today", he's presumably referring to new-age spin-off authors such as (the actually masterful) Graham Hancock and imitators. You don't have to look too hard to find other examples: the Elizojacobean poets looked to Greek and Latin writers as their models and Latin was considered the perfect tongue. Indeed, the renaissance was almost predicated on the rediscovery and translation of the classics. Classics still remain an almost reverent subject in universities.

Type: Anti Pattern, History Pattern.

- - e r i k - - · Apr 24, 2009, 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

Hrrmmm....I thought it was science that said that...

Empathy
Neocortex
Good Judgment

Not seeing the correlation.

Kerrigan · Apr 24, 2009, 04:28 AM

One of these quotes does not belong,

Can you pick it out?

“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

“For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”

“Love the Lord your God with all your passion and prayer and intelligence. Love others as well as you love yourself.”

"You cannot serve God and money."

"If a blind person is leading a blind person, both will end up in a ditch. "

"Blessed are you who are hungry now. Your hunger will be satisfied. "

"Forgive and you will be forgiven."

"Do not build a steel processing factory on this land, for we, the elves, live underneath the surveyed ground, and your construction will harm our habitat and we will be forced to move elsewhere. For although we are supernatural beings, we also find it very troublesome to relocate ourselves in the midst of a recession and ask that you do not come anywhere near our underground lair unless you are alone, in which case we might make our presence known, but you will be so confused after seeing us that you will be too embarrassed to admit the encounter ever took place, and will instead play it cool by 'not denying' our existence whenever a phone surveyor asks you if we exist."

AKcrab · Apr 24, 2009, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

One of these quotes does not belong,

Can you pick it out?

"If a blind person is leading a blind person, both will end up in a ditch. "

Do I win?

Shaddim · Apr 24, 2009, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by AKcrab

Do I win?

Only if you're Obama and Biden.

Spheric Harlot · Apr 24, 2009, 05:16 AM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

Only if you're Obama and Biden.

ZOMG POLITICLE REported.

Laminar · Apr 24, 2009, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

It is very common. The "ancient knowledge" fallacy for example:

I'm aware of what it is, I just wasn't sure of which group of religious people that use that as their "main argument."

Ghoser777 · Apr 24, 2009, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by sek929

Homer angrily dials the phone.

"Mr. Bloot? Homer Simpson here. When you sold me this house, you forgot to
mention one little thing: YOU DIDN'T TELL ME IT WAS BUILT ON AN INDIAN BURIAL
GROUND!

...NO YOU DIDN'T!...

Well, that's not my recollection. ...
Yeah? Well, all right, goodbye! [angrily hangs up]
He said he mentioned it five or six times."

Isn't it Mr. Ploot?

Shaddim · Apr 24, 2009, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

ZOMG POLITICLE REported.

Oh well, it's a religion thread in the lounge, I figured it was fair game.

Hugi · Apr 25, 2009, 10:10 AM

I'll let you in on a (rather well known) secret: Icelandic "elf belief" is primarily a PR-stunt. It's a very effective way for the tourist industry for marketing the nation to foreigners. It makes us special. And it's very successful, as Kerrigan demonstrated: We got an entire thread for free at MacNN to show how special we are - that's good marketing.

And I ruined it. Oh well...

Of course, we have a couple of weird folks that really do believe in elves - but they are no different from other countries' weird extremists that believe in an almighty "God" that created the universe and "Hell" and stuff like that. Weirdos are everywhere.

Laminar · Apr 25, 2009, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Hugi

Of course, we have a couple of weird folks that really do believe in elves - but they are no different from other countries' weird extremists that believe in an almighty "God" that created the universe and "Hell" and stuff like that. Weirdos are everywhere.

Also, extra points for originality!!1!