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Apple hates you
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Jelle Monkmater
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Dec 12, 2001, 05:29 AM
 
But apart from attracting attention, this title actually holds merit.

I sincerely believe that when NeXt was annNeXed by Apple, and development of OS X begun, many NeXt employees felt little for the idea of making applications for Macheads.

The whole new OS was to be a UNIX-driven beast with a GUI layer over the command line underbelly.

The result? A kick-ass OS for those with some problem solving skills and a head for UNIX commands. For the rest: an incomprehensible extensions-loving beast that runs as if through heavy mud on many machines, gobbles HD space without warning, generating logfiles that are almost impossible to access without the dreaded Terminal which is an all too visual reminder of what OS X really is.

But I said Apple hated you, the old Mac users. And they must do - why else are they trying to alienate you by the bucketload while simultaneously trying to attract a whole host of new, UNIX-savvy users?

And why release iTunes 2.0 for X? Why give people such a horrible trojan? With every update I do on my computer I'm always afraid the whole machine will implode with the speed of light and form a black hole where my desk used to be. Then again, I'm a UNIX head, not a Machead, so I take the risk, do so consciously, and don't blame Apple right out when things go all weird on me.

But then again: shouldn't Apple have taken care that things did not go wrong in the first place? That all but a power failure in the middle of an install while updating the OS and burning an MP3 CD and playing Quake 3 should allow you to lose some data, instead of the sometimes random losses some people experience?

And shouldn't Apple have taken care that privileges wouldn't be a problem for people, instead of poor, clueless users trying to empty the trash only to be told they don't have enough privileges.

When I first came to these fora, I read everywhere that the Terminal wouldn't be needed unless you wanted to use it, now every other post mentions the solution 'open the Terminal'. Surely, that can't be right? Surely, you shouldn't have to open a Terminal window to empty your trash? Isn't that complete madness?

Again, I think OS X kicks ass and is better suited to my needs than 9 (my Terminal app is open 24/7), but it's been a long time coming, and a long enough time since it was released, and basically many of the problems we've had back in March, we still have now.

And what's the deal with not being able to burn multiple sessions? Isn't that a basic right for those who want to burn CDs?

Apple hates you, old-school Mac users. They hate you for thinking problem solving should be easy and GUI, they hate you for thinking trashing the prefs solves everything. They hate you for believing you can mess about with your machine without hosing the system. And now you have to pay, and not only for a new machine so that X has acceptable performance while being promised way back when that it should run on an iMac 233MHz with 128MB RAM.
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Wevah
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Dec 12, 2001, 06:36 AM
 
And what's the deal with not being able to burn multiple sessions? Isn't that a basic right for those who want to burn CDs?
I second that.
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edddeduck
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Dec 12, 2001, 07:40 AM
 
And here is the answer Toast......

You get the OEM which can with all 3rd party burners..

Else buy Toast...

Thats my view

Cheers Edd
     
Spheric Harlot
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Dec 12, 2001, 07:40 AM
 
Originally posted by Jelle Monkmater:
<STRONG>Surely, you shouldn't have to open a Terminal window to empty your trash? Isn't that complete madness?</STRONG>
Yes. Hence DropObliter8.

I think much of what you're pointing out is exactly why Apple hasn't made OS X the default operating system for their machines yet!

There isn't even a real disk-recovery program that runs under OS X yet (no, Drive 10 isn't). This is not design or oversight. It merely indicates a lack of maturity in the system.

If you look at the *nix functionality that GUI's have already been built for, you can see the trend: Pseudo, BrickHouse, the "Users" System Preference Pane, etc.

Apple (and its third-party programmers) have not forgotten where they come from and whom they must pander to, and IMO, they're doing an admirable job in many respects.

They're just far from done yet, is all.

-chris.
     
speirsfr
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Dec 12, 2001, 07:55 AM
 
I think 'hate' is probably too strong a word to use......
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rjenkinson
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Dec 12, 2001, 08:03 AM
 
stop being so reactionary. of course there are minor problems with a new operating system built from the ground up. they will be fixed with updates.

-r.
     
Boondoggle
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Dec 12, 2001, 08:06 AM
 
Apple (and its third-party programmers) have not forgotten where they come from and whom they must pander to, and IMO, they're doing an admirable job in many respects.

They're just far from done yet, is all.
my sentiments exactly
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edddeduck
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Dec 12, 2001, 08:23 AM
 
My thoughts too...

Just put in a better fashion than my half hearted etempt above ...



Cheers Edd
     
ervier
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Dec 12, 2001, 08:24 AM
 
Look what IBM has to say about this subject:
http://www-3.ibm.com/ibm/easy/eou_ext.nsf/Publish/12

User Rights
  • Perspective: The user is always right. If there is a problem with the use of the system, the system is the problem, not the user.
  • Installation: The user has the right to easily install and uninstall software and hardware systems without negative consequences.
  • Compliance: The user has the right to a system that performs exactly as promised.
  • Instruction: The user has the right to easy-to-use instructions (user guides, online or contextual help, error messages) for understanding and
    utilizing a system to achieve desired goals and recover efficiently and gracefully from problem situations.
  • Control: The user has the right to be in control of the system and to be able to get the system to respond to a request for attention.
  • Feedback: The user has the right to a system that provides clear, understandable, and accurate information regarding the task it is performing and the progress toward completion.
  • Dependencies: The user has the right to be clearly informed about all systems requirements for successfully using software or hardware.
  • Scope: The user has the right to know the limits of the system's capabilities.
  • Assistance: The user has the right to communicate with the technology provider and receive a thoughtful and helpful response when raising concerns.
  • Usability: The user should be the master of software and hardware technology, not vice-versa. Products should be natural and intuitive to use.
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karbon
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Dec 12, 2001, 08:33 AM
 
Originally posted by Jelle Monkmater:
<STRONG>
But then again: shouldn't Apple have taken care that things did not go wrong in the first place? That all but a power failure in the middle of an install while updating the OS and burning an MP3 CD and playing Quake 3 should allow you to lose some data, instead of the sometimes random losses some people experience?
</STRONG>
I agree with a lot of the things you are saying. But you seem to forget one very important thing: MacOS X is still not the default operating system on the mac platform. OS X comes installed on new machines, that's true, but they boot into MacOS 9 unless you choose to change it.

So Apple is aware that MacOS X is not quite there yet for the average Joe user, but it's pretty damn close. The are still bugs to be fixed, and features to be added before it's where MacOS 9 left.

Personally I would NEVER go back to MacOS 9. I feel much more comfortable in OS X, and the system is just so much more robust. I have 12 days uptime on my iBook right now. I can't remember last time that happened in OS 9...
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Xenex
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Dec 12, 2001, 08:45 AM
 
You just provoked me to write a reply, which quickly morphed into a writeup at Everything2.

It lives here on E2, however I'll paste it below:

Apple bought NeXT in 1997. A year later the CEO was gone, and Steve Jobs was all but running the place. NeXT had seized power of Apple.

NeXT took Apple over. Apple became NeXT. And then they geeked the place up.

Mac OS X is a shiny new UNIX, that happens to be somewhat similar to the Classic Mac OS, and has the ability to run its apps. Look at NeXTSTEP and Mac OS 9, and then compare them both to Mac OS X. One could argue that OS X is NeXTSTEP in Macintosh clothing. Hell, look at the NeXT Cube and the Power Mac G4 Cube. Does it get any more obvious that Apple has become NeXT?

Now there is a line forming down the middle of the Macintosh community. On one extreme, the old-school Mac user, the person that yells loudly and proudly "I've had a Macintosh since 1984, and I've used Apple II's before then!". The other extreme, the geek new to the platform, lured across by "A smooth liquid GUI wrapped around a crunchy UNIX centre!"

This is very much a case of two cultures colliding, and the result isn't pretty. Between whining about terminals, to complaints about ease of use, to filesystems wars, to entire window systems being hacked to the top, these two groups of people are having problems mixing.

The Mac user of old, that stuck though the dark days of Apple, and the new geeks that bring a new userbase and development power to the platform. Who is going to win this 'war' (or at least come out of it happier...)

Who runs Apple now?

Steve Jobs, from NeXT.

Who's operating system is the Mac OS now?

NeXT's. A wonderful geek UNIX.

Sure, OS X is great for newbies, but under the hood is it a holy grail for many a UNIX user. So, if you're a geek out there thinking "Apple? Mac? One button? Pfft". Change your viewpoint for a moment. This is one way I justify my new-found liking of Apple to geek friends; stop thinking of them as the Apple of old. Just think of them as a bigger NeXT with a new name.

Apple may have bought NeXT, but NeXT took over Apple.


(Oh, and it's an opinion. I hope not to offend anyone...)

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Xenex ]
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Xeo
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Dec 12, 2001, 08:46 AM
 
Originally posted by Jelle Monkmater:
<STRONG>That all but a power failure [...] should allow you to lose some data, instead of the sometimes random losses some people experience?</STRONG>
For the record, it wasn't random. It was carelessness. The script would try to removed the old iTunes if, and only if, it existed. Then the problem arose when people had spaces in their HD names, and the programmer didn't take care that the space was escaped. As a UNIX head, you already know the problems with having unaccounted spaces in the pathname... especially when used in a command like rm.

Anyway... it wasn't random.
     
wadesworld
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Dec 12, 2001, 08:54 AM
 
Apple may have bought NeXT, but NeXT took over Apple.
Which is not a bad thing. Apple under the NeXT leadership is showing signs of life and even growth.

Apple prior to the NeXT deal was not doing much in the way of innovation and was heading down a fast track to disappearing.

Apple will continue to improve ease-of-use in OS X. It *will* become as easy to use for the average user as OS 9. But it won't become OS 9, and that's what has some people upset.

Personally, I love OS X, remaining issues and all.

Wade
     
dav
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Dec 12, 2001, 09:24 AM
 
i started with an apple ][+, and i'm ready for unix, next, and mac os x. and i really want an ipod.
one post closer to five stars
     
macaddled
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Dec 12, 2001, 09:33 AM
 
What, all of a sudden this is a macfixit forum? oy gevalt. yes, apple is out to get you.
     
BZ
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Dec 12, 2001, 09:55 AM
 
The split is not as big as one might suggest:

Sure, there are going to be users out there who decide that Mac OS 9 was the end all to be all and never migrate. Fine. Let them sit in 9.2 for the next two years and figure it out.

There are also a whole bunch of new users to the mac platform that I would gladly trade one for one for every one that wants to stay in 9. These are the unix people, the developers, the administrator and the companies they administrate. We want these people. We need these people. We need OS X in the work place. We need OS X in server farms running big corporate websites.

But I don't agree for a second that Mac OS X is hard to use or combersome. I personally love SSH'ing back and forth between my two boxes and running FTP servers or killing applications from the command line. It makes me happy. But I have place people who have no idea about Unix, Mac OS or Terminal in front of the login screen for Mac OS X and let them go. They log in, they click on Internet Explorer and they go get mail. They open word, they type, they save. A few weeks later that same person is making playlists in iTunes while browsing the net and ripping a CD. Do they care about unix or the terminal? No, and never will.

I have seen the simple side of OS X and I like it.

BZ
     
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Dec 12, 2001, 10:42 AM
 
I don't think Apple hates me---though NetInfo sometimes makes me think otherwise....
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velocitychannel
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Dec 12, 2001, 12:41 PM
 
If Apple hated us, they would be forcing OS X down our throats. They're not. They have given us a choice and made it very easy to switch between 9 and X.

Apple has also carved out a time frame for when we can expect X to be Apple's primary OS. Looking at how far OS X has come since the Public Beta, I am sure that by the time 12 o'clock rolls around, many of these issues will be addressed. Hopefully

Also, keep in mind that Apple is the first company to come forth and deliver UNIX to the consumer market in a friendly way. Anyone that has a history with UNIX knows that OS X is leaps and bounds ahead of anyone else in giving UNIX "ease of use".
     
TheTraveller
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Dec 12, 2001, 12:51 PM
 
Originally posted by Jelle Monkmater:
<STRONG>But apart from attracting attention, this title actually holds merit.

When I first came to these fora, I read everywhere that the Terminal wouldn't be needed unless you wanted to use it, now every other post mentions the solution 'open the Terminal'. Surely, that can't be right? Surely, you shouldn't have to open a Terminal window to empty your trash? Isn't that complete madness?
</STRONG>
I rarely go into the terminal. Mostly, I do so for kicks, to see what top is telling me. OS X is head and shoulders easier to use than OS 9, at the very least if only because it is several orders of magnitude more reliable. In my experience.
     
Silky Voice of The Gorn
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Dec 12, 2001, 01:14 PM
 
Originally posted by Jelle Monkmater:
<STRONG>But apart from attracting attention, this title actually holds merit.
&lt;snip&gt;
Apple hates you, old-school Mac users. They hate you for thinking problem solving should be easy and GUI, they hate you for thinking trashing the prefs solves everything. They hate you for believing you can mess about with your machine without hosing the system. And now you have to pay, and not only for a new machine so that X has acceptable performance while being promised way back when that it should run on an iMac 233MHz with 128MB RAM.</STRONG>
Sounds more like YOU hate APPLE.

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Silky Voice of The Gorn ]
     
Oink
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Dec 12, 2001, 01:36 PM
 
I am beginning to like OS X in a new way, the total environment kind of thing... yet I second your opinion. Rather than Mac OS evolving into something better, Apple pretty much abandoned the foundation which makes mac OS great in the first place; clarity is now a nasty word, everything has to be translucent with drop shadow and less clear now. Readable screen fonts are gone, replaced with strange kerning that would have eliminated Apple's chance with desktop publishers if it was around in 1984. Yet strangely Apple holds on to things that should have been adandoned, like a one button mouse... Things we once took for granted, we now have to hack our way through. If Unix (which I love btw) means a more efficient OS, how come all the OSX apps are so slow comparing to their OS9 counterparts. Progress is not about making something prettier (not my opinion) at the expense of usability, legibility and speed.
     
Jelle Monkmater  (op)
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Dec 12, 2001, 01:45 PM
 
Okay, let me clarify one or two things.

First off: most of you are right in saying X isn't the default OS (yet), and that many of the current bugs will be filtered out by the time it is the default on new Macs (around March I'm told).

But it's not the bugs that worry me the most, it's the host of third party apps you need to not have to circumvent the GUI.

Some of you mentioned some handy little ditties, but I think it's pretty strange you need a third party app to have normal functionality (ie, emptying the trash).

speirsfr and rjenkinson are also both right: hate is too strong a word, and I am being reactionary, but nonetheless, these are serious issues for a lot of users. I have no idea how I would fare if I didn't know as much about UNIX as I do, given that I still run into problems I don't know how to solve, like applications that launch, bounce betgween 70 and 90 times and then sit there doing nothing but blocking the machine's ability to restart. Is there a third party app that can fix that? (I'm serious, actually, so if there is one, please let me know).

As to Xeo's post, he said:

<STRONG>For the record, it wasn't random. It was carelessness. The script would try to removed the old iTunes if, and only if, it existed. Then the problem arose when people had spaces in their HD names, and the programmer didn't take care that the space was escaped. As a UNIX head, you already know the problems with having unaccounted spaces in the pathname... especially when used in a command like rm.

Anyway... it wasn't random.</STRONG>
Xeo, I wasn't talking about iTunes 2. That indeed wasn't random, but rather something malicious. You simply don't 'forget' quotation marks, or the possibility that there might be HDs in the world with a space in the name. And speaking of spaces: what about that joke you couldn't have a space in your password? That was rather strange too.

And another thing, what about that 10.1.1 update which didn't bother to look for Mail, but simply dumped a few loose pieces in the Applications folder and let the Mac websites deal with the aftermath. Another mistake? Well 'whoops'!

The data loss I'm referring to is what I read from several people on this and other fora -- people with serious trouble not related to the installation of iTunes 2 or NAV (which appears to be something of a trojan too).

And again I want to stress that I love OS X. Really, I do, up to the point I'm seriously considering deleting every last trace of OS 9 because I never use it much anyway, and as soon as I have Illustrator X, I'll never use it again. But as much as I love OS X, I'm getting more and more sure that the OS's programmers don't much like many of us 'lusers' and our wish for more-not-less metadata.

A friend of mine is barely aware that something like an OS exists - for her the computer is the OS is the applications it runs. It's people like her who will have tremendous difficulty with OS X, unless, indeed, it can match 9 in ease of use by the time it ships standard (+ the time it would take her to buy a new computer). I hope so, but I fear the worst.

macaddled, your post made me laugh and now I've lost my anger. So cheers ;-). But I didn't mean to imply that Apple is out to get me, they're just out to make money as fast as possible with as little effort as possible. This in itself is not a bad thing, but it's questionable when the lack of effort reflects on the products they make. Anyway, I should have been a little clearer by saying that I have the distinct feeling there are several programmers working for Apple who might not have the best of intentions when it comes to writing/debugging/testing the applications they made. However, that's not a very catchy title.

Oh, and I forgot one of the most posted solutions to troubles X: reinstall. I always thought that was a Winblow$ solution, like rebooting and doing a three-fingered salute, which on X is really a two-fingered solution: thumb + middle finger. Unless you don't count thumbs as fingers in which case it's a thumb+finger salute, which, like the alternative title to this thread, isn't very catchy either. Ah, nevermind.

As to the user friendliness of the OS X UNIX side: this is pobably true. My only other experiences with UNIX-based systems are AIX, which I think is an excellent BOFH's UNIX and extremely easy to configure and use, and HP-UX, which is a monster and evil and probably bred by ugly griffins who have the face of Bill Gates and the body of a snake. So, yes, I agree that OS X UNIX is pretty friendly, but it could be improved. Especially in the area of where I want to put folders and what I want to put in them.

Anyway, further updates as events warrant.
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Mafoo
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Dec 12, 2001, 01:58 PM
 
whats wrong with useing the terminal? i find it is faster and more efficient for many tasks, and having GCC on my computer really helps avoid walking down to the University buildings and trying to find a free sun machine, and even that has a GUI front end via project builder. When was the last time that a home user with their iMac wanted to compile the new version of apache? And as for the issue of permissions, you never know what happens when someone has ran out of space and wants to install the new game they just bought, whats that folder with all that junk in it.. its huge and i never use any of the stuff... it wouldnt hurt to delete it. and they wonder why their computer doesnt work next time they turn it on.

I havent booted into OS 9 since... atleast 6 weeks ago. and that was just to test some software.

Anyway, as a microsoft commissioned survey showed, mac users are on the whole more inteligent than PC users. (and better in bed)

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Hemingray
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Dec 12, 2001, 02:36 PM
 
About all this "Macintosh '84" users versus "Unix Gurus":

I'm one of those guys who shouts proudly about having used the Mac since '84 and the Apple II before that. I know the classic macintosh system in and out, and I'm proud to be able to sit down at any given workstation at my office and fix a graphic designer's problem.

BUT...

I'm also smart enough to realize when something has progressed. Apple is Apple is Apple as far as I'm concerned. They've made a new system, they're making new computers. Keep with the program, that's what I say. "Adopt, adapt and improve..." in the words of John Cleese in the Monty Python's Robbing the Lingerie Shop sketch.

Just because things have changed doesn't mean we get left in the cold clinging to our Mac128k. We don't have to be super-savvy Unix gurus (although it would be a plus.) I'm excited about the direction we're going and I say "Adopt, adapt and improve!"

"...what, no large denominations of money in easy-to-carry bags?"
"No sir, this is a lingerie shop."
"I see... uh... well, what you got?"
"Bras, underwear, garters.."
"...well... just a pair of panties then, please!"

[greatly paraphrased]
     
boots
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Dec 12, 2001, 02:44 PM
 
About the time-line and NeXT:

Jobs (and a friend) invented Apple...they then sold out and went on to other pastures....time passes and apple is sinking fast. there are about fifteleven models of macs which each require different memory chips, etc. How can a company keep that much chaos in the air for very long? They can't. Jobs comes back from NeXT (the aquisition) and brings direction back to the company: G3, iMac, G4...the lines are very 'hardware-compatible'now. If anything, Apple is more Apple-like now that Jobs is back.

About OS X:

Definately not ready for prime time yet. But getting there. I like the unix end, though I've always prefered apple products over windows machines. There are still some major problems:

If apple is serious about being the "plug in the power and modem and get online" choice, they need to fix the pppd problem that causes the OS to hang. The masses will not put up with that non-sense.

The speed of applications must improve. I suspect that the OS will become better optimized with each update.

Overall:

The task of marrying Unix with Mac OS was monumental. I don't think people appreciate how hard it was to simply allow compatibility of the three main file systems, let alone having classic and OS X play nicely with each other. It's been my experience that the last 10% of a project takes longer than the first 90%, so it may be a while until all the kinks are ironed out. The hard work, however is over, and the results are quite impressive. Does apple hate us? No. They found a way to expand their customer base, and we are the post-beta testers. It isn't until a large number of users can experience the system that the less obvious problems can be found and addressed. Have patience, and all will be well. Apple's profit margin depends on it!

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macaddled
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Dec 12, 2001, 02:56 PM
 
Originally posted by Jelle Monkmater:
<STRONG>
Xeo, I wasn't talking about iTunes 2. That indeed wasn't random, but rather something malicious. You simply don't 'forget' quotation marks, or the possibility that there might be HDs in the world with a space in the name.</STRONG>
Dude, you are friggin' insane. Remind me to never again pay any attention to you whatsoever.
     
--Helen--
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Dec 12, 2001, 03:47 PM
 
Hey, I'm an old school mac user. Wow. I'm twenty four. I've never tought of myself as old before.

Ten years using everything from an LC II all the way up to the G4 now in front of me, I guess that might make me ancient.

Why I remember back in the days when we had to use the Font/DA mover. What an experience that was.

I don't think Apple hates me. I'm used to fixing Macs with troubled extensions, preferences and whatnot.

Considering that the only problem I've had with X dealt with fonts, the solution being to restart the machine. I can't say that I have many complaints.

So if my Mac has a terminal window and UNIX based guts. Cool! Seems to run better to me. So long OSes 6-9, extensions, preference, networking problems.

I look forward to G5s and bigger Hard Drives.
     
lucylawless
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Dec 12, 2001, 03:58 PM
 
fellas, fellas! You're all losing track of the real issue here, and that is wether you can burn multi-session cds.

edddeduck has implied that Toast allows you to do this, correct, ed? Whenever I try this, it gives a Mac OS error and doesn't even try to burn. I suppose it should be noted that when I put in a blank cd, regardless of wether Toast is in the foreground, the finder pops up two dialogues asking me to initialize the disk, and then warning me that I've ignored it.

Can anyone confirm or deny the possibility of burning multisession cd's (or re-writing, for that matter)?

I have a LaCie 16x U&I (usb, firewire combo, connected by firewire) drive, os 10.1.1, 576 MB ram, pismo 400, yadda yadda yadda
blackmail is such an ugly word. I prefer extortion. the X makes it sound cool
     
CharlesS
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Dec 12, 2001, 04:00 PM
 
Originally posted by --Helen--:
<STRONG>Ten years using everything from an LC II all the way up to the G4 now in front of me, I guess that might make me ancient.

Why I remember back in the days when we had to use the Font/DA mover. What an experience that was.</STRONG>
This has nothing to do with this discussion, but...

How were you using Font/DA Mover on an LC II? Didn't those come preinstalled with System 7.0.1, which didn't have any need for Font/DA Mover (and, indeed, wouldn't let you launch it)?

Ticking sound coming from a .pkg package? Don't let the .bom go off! Inspect it first with Pacifist. Macworld - five mice!
     
Oink
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Dec 12, 2001, 04:23 PM
 
Charles,

I vaguely recalled LC with 6.0.8 or something like that. How long after the original LC did the LC II came out? My first IIci came with 6.0.4. Strange old days! I don't want to remember how much I paid for it... I had to go back two weeks later to buy the keyboard and the monitor! Did Apple love us then?
     
SnowmanX
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Dec 12, 2001, 04:54 PM
 
This discussion is unbelievably pathetic.

"OS X sucks and its creator sucks more, but don't flame me because I really do love and want to love OS X more."

And...

"I refuse to believe Apple makes mistakes. Every "accident" is intentional and maliciously so."

Or how about this:

"What progress has OS X brought that we didn't have before in OS 9? I don't see any. Do you mean to say emptying the trash via the terminal is a never-before-had feature??"

No, fool. It's called a bug. Give Apple a little more credit than that. They are humans, not magicians. This is simply a new twist on brainless Apple-bashing. If you're going to bash Apple, do it with some intelligence.

Repeat after me: P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C L-U-D-D-I-T-E, G-R-O-W U-P

Furthermore, you do realize you do have the option of going Windows, right? XP isn't that bad at all, really.
You can ask me anything. Just don't question me.
     
mmurray
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Dec 12, 2001, 05:06 PM
 
Originally posted by SnowmanX:
<STRONG>This discussion is unbelievably pathetic.


Repeat after me: P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C L-U-D-D-I-T-E, G-R-O-W U-P

</STRONG>
P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C L-U-D-D-I-T-E, G-R-O-W U-P
     
mmurray
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Dec 12, 2001, 05:09 PM
 
Originally posted by lucylawless:
<STRONG>fellas, fellas! You're all losing track of the real issue here, and that is wether you can burn multi-session cds.

edddeduck has implied that Toast allows you to do this, correct, ed? Whenever I try this, it gives a Mac OS error and doesn't even try to burn. I suppose it should be noted that when I put in a blank cd, regardless of wether Toast is in the foreground, the finder pops up two dialogues asking me to initialize the disk, and then warning me that I've ignored it.

Can anyone confirm or deny the possibility of burning multisession cd's (or re-writing, for that matter)?

I have a LaCie 16x U&I (usb, firewire combo, connected by firewire) drive, os 10.1.1, 576 MB ram, pismo 400, yadda yadda yadda</STRONG>
I can make multi session recordings with Toast and QUE firewire
drive. I set everything up in Toast without a CD in the drive, then
insert the CD when Toast requests. The finder pops up the dialogues you mention and I press Cancel or whatever button amounts to ignore them (sorry its on my machine at work so I can't check it). Then Toast burns the CD.

Michael
     
macaddled
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Dec 12, 2001, 05:21 PM
 
Originally posted by Jelle Monkmater:
<STRONG>macaddled, your post made me laugh and now I've lost my anger. So cheers ;-). But I didn't mean to imply that Apple is out to get me, they're just out to make money as fast as possible with as little effort as possible. This in itself is not a bad thing, but it's questionable when the lack of effort reflects on the products they make. Anyway, I should have been a little clearer by saying that I have the distinct feeling there are several programmers working for Apple who might not have the best of intentions when it comes to writing/debugging/testing the applications they made. However, that's not a very catchy title.
</STRONG>
Ok, fair enough, my apologies for getting heated too. And you're certainly entitled to your opinion, although I think it's much more likely that someone with less UNIX experience made the installer mistake rather than a malicious or even malicious-through-neglect NeXT-head.
     
cpt kangarooski
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Dec 12, 2001, 06:30 PM
 
Huh? Why should you lose data when you lose power whilst installing an OS update, burning a cd and gaming? Don't we have things like journaling filesystems to prevent damage from that? And don't we write copies of data before deleting the originals when we move to avoid such situations? And don't Macs have pretty good power supplies to avoid shutdowns on minor fluctuations and brownouts? (seen it happen -- Macs stayed up, IBMs went down)

Boy, you'd have to be pretty silly to put up with that sort of accident waiting to happen.

wade--
And NeXT was the paragon of successful computer companies, hm? Well known, wealthy and powerful, with lots of practical experience in developing powerful, well-priced, well-marketed and popular hardware, and with champion OSes for professional and home use?

Man, I'd love to have seen what NeXT was like on your Parallel Earth. See if you can put up some links to the Parallel Web. 'Round these parts NeXT is widely regarded as one of the more spectacular failures prior to the dot-com implosion just recently. The $400m asking price of Steve's was to repay their investors who had never made a thing until during the ~10 years of NeXT's existance. Heck, this was the company where Steve himself said that they expected to either be the last OS to make it, or the first one to flop, and that they wound up being the latter. Check out Randall Stross' book on NeXT sometime. It's like an instruction manual on what not to do.
--
This and all my other posts are hereby in the public domain. I am a lawyer. But I'm not your lawyer, and this isn't legal advice.
     
superfatso
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Dec 12, 2001, 08:54 PM
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jelle Monkmater:

right on!
     
velocitychannel
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Dec 12, 2001, 09:16 PM
 
Originally posted by Oink:
<STRONG>Charles,

My first IIci came with 6.0.4. Strange old days! I don't want to remember how much I paid for it... I had to go back two weeks later to buy the keyboard and the monitor! Did Apple love us then?</STRONG>
Hehe, I remembering paying somewhere in the $5,000 range for my IIcx in 1989 (or was it 88?).

And people complain that Macs are expensive now!
     
yukon
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Dec 12, 2001, 09:29 PM
 
osx is ready. its missing a lot, but so are most operating systems =). one thing i'd like to see would be for the ease-of-use to spread to the unix files. we used to be able to move and do anything. i want apple, with its amazing human-interface groups to make unix easier for normal users, as easy as it was in os9 to fix things.

p.s. many unixes take forever to startup/shutdown (it's not meant to do either much). apple is amazing in this respect.
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--Helen--
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Dec 13, 2001, 11:08 AM
 
OS X is missing the funny platnium sounds when you open or close a application, document, or scroll up and down a window.

Charlie,

I used the Font/DA mover on an Classic II, black and white deal that had System 6 something on it.

Anyway, in order to move sounds or fonts to and from the system folder, this app existed to serve that purpose. It had two panes, you browsed for the sound files you wanted to place into the system. Then you transferred them. By the time System 7 appeared, it was a defunct application.

I used it during summer, I learned how to digitize via the microphone, I had little eight bit "I'll be back" sounds from Terminator 2 which had been a recent film at the time.
     
wadesworld
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Dec 13, 2001, 11:34 AM
 
And NeXT was the paragon of successful computer companies, hm? Well known, wealthy and powerful, with lots of practical experience in developing powerful, well-priced, well-marketed and popular hardware, and with champion OSes for professional and home use?
I never said they acheived great commercial success.

However, they have acheived commercial success at Apple, and when they were at NeXT they achieved great technical acclaim as well as a respectable rate of adoption by some of the most demanding customers in the world: financial institutions.

Wade
     
Jelle Monkmater  (op)
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Dec 13, 2001, 11:48 AM
 
Originally posted by SnowmanX:
<STRONG>This discussion is unbelievably pathetic.

"OS X sucks and its creator sucks more, but don't flame me because I really do love and want to love OS X more."

And...

"I refuse to believe Apple makes mistakes. Every "accident" is intentional and maliciously so."

Or how about this:

"What progress has OS X brought that we didn't have before in OS 9? I don't see any. Do you mean to say emptying the trash via the terminal is a never-before-had feature??"

No, fool. It's called a bug. Give Apple a little more credit than that. They are humans, not magicians. This is simply a new twist on brainless Apple-bashing. If you're going to bash Apple, do it with some intelligence.

Repeat after me: P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C L-U-D-D-I-T-E, G-R-O-W U-P

Furthermore, you do realize you do have the option of going Windows, right? XP isn't that bad at all, really.</STRONG>
Ah, yes, while most people read what I wrote, you decided to read what you expected me to write. There's always one. It's fine to disagree with me, but two things: don't attack my person, attack what I say; and don't twist my words to suit your own rant.

I didn't say OS X sucks, I said there are several things wrong with it which some people might feel to be a step backwards, despite numerous advantages, from OS 9.

And I didn't say I refuse to believe Apple makes any mistake. Of course they make the odd mistake, I just find it very hard to believe that the iTunes 2.0 installer was accidentally missing 2 little bytes. Perhaps I just want to believe applications actually get tested thoroughly -- but that's a whole different thing. And you might suggest that I'm completely mistaken in thinking the application was tested anywhere near thoroughly enough to be released to the general public, just don't claim I think every mistake Apple makes is intentionally aimed at us.

Your line that I claim to say (at least I assume you do -- I'm far from sure as I sure didn't say this) that everything OS X brought us was already seen in OS 9 is the clincher. Apparently you've missed the point a bit here. That's okay in itself (we all make mistakes, and sometimes we read a little carelessly), but you're calling me the fool. Of course I see that X is a step forward from 9 at it's core, and that's one of the reasons I like OS X. On the other hand, though, there are things that appear to be a step backwards from OS 9, like the freedom to place any folder anywhere, the whole spring-loaded schtick (which has already been beaten to death, but it's a valid point nonetheless), the built-in multiple session CD-burning, and the UNIX way of troubleshooting (reinstall). I want these to be better, not worse.

In other words, in contrast to a luddite, I don't want things to remain the same with OS X, I want it to improve.

And speaking of improvement, I've noticed this thread has changed topic quite a bit, and for the better I must say. Maybe the title can be changed to reflect this.

SnowmanX, if you still feel I've been unclear about some things, send me a private message and I'll explain again.
The one you love and the one who loves you are never the same person.
     
--Helen--
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Dec 13, 2001, 12:28 PM
 
I kind of wonder what 2002s WWDC confrence will be like.

Yeah, what now Steve? It does what? Wow! But is it available for Windows? Nah, screw um. They've been doin it to us for years.
     
   
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