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Milosevic is Dead!
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Mar 11, 2006, 09:37 AM
 
Maybe "lost in the WoT" in recent years, but dead at 64.
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Pendergast
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Mar 11, 2006, 09:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Ω
Maybe "lost in the WoT" in recent years, but dead at 64.
And apparently from natural causes, in his cell.
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SimeyTheLimey
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Mar 11, 2006, 10:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Pendergast
And apparently from natural causes, in his cell.
. . . having never been convicted, because his trial was allowed to turn into a farce.

Justice delayed is justice denied.
     
Pendergast
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Mar 11, 2006, 10:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey
. . . having never been convicted, because his trial was allowed to turn into a farce.

Justice delayed is justice denied.
I did not follow that. How was it a farce and what made it happen according to you?
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Mar 11, 2006, 11:28 AM
 
Simey is correct, for once.

The man had been in jail for five years, more than enough time to convict him.
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Millennium
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Mar 11, 2006, 12:27 PM
 
I feel sad for whatever family may still hold the man dear. But although it's a shame that he never got to face full justice, oh well; the world is still that much of a better place with him gone.
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Mar 11, 2006, 01:06 PM
 
The same thing will probably happen to Saddam.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Mar 11, 2006, 01:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Pendergast
I did not follow that. How was it a farce and what made it happen according to you?
Why do you always demand that other people do your research for you? Use google.
     
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Mar 11, 2006, 01:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey
Why do you always demand that other people do your research for you? Use google.
He asked you to explain YOUR opinion of something. How is Google going to provide him an explanation of YOUR opinion? Unless you have a SimeyTheLimey blog with an article entitled "Why I think the trial of Slobodan Milosevic is a farce" Google ain't gonna be much help in finding out YOUR opinion about something.

So, maybe you could politely answer the question and not be pissy about it. Here it is again so you don't have to look it up. (I will even paraphrase it for you.)

Why do you think the trial of Slobodan Milosevic was a farce and, in your opinion, what factors contributed to it being a farce?
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Mar 11, 2006, 01:21 PM
 
um...it took five years - and then he died of old age?
     
dcmacdaddy
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Mar 11, 2006, 01:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy
um...it took five years - and then he died of old age?
Thank you for your opinion of why you think it was a farce. Now let's wait for Simey to tell us HIS opinion of why HE thinks it is a farce.
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Mar 11, 2006, 01:47 PM
 
His lawyer was a freakin' ultra-left-wing Canadian who claimed the charges against him were bunk and that he was a scapegoat for the Western world's inabilities. It's pretty embarrassing.

John G. Stoessinger declared Milosevic, Saddam Hussein and Adolf Hitler as the three dictators who were "truly evil." That's a pretty strong statement considering the company left out, but I think it's representative of Milosevic's actions.

greg
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Kevin
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Mar 11, 2006, 01:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy
So, maybe you could politely answer the question and not be pissy about it.
DC you need to take your OWN advice. Seriously. All you do is act pissy and DEMAND people do things you request. Over the most PETTY things.
     
Pendergast
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Mar 11, 2006, 01:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey
Why do you always demand that other people do your research for you? Use google.
You made sound like your opinion is obvious from the start.

Are you so full of yourself that you feel we should revolve around you?
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Mar 11, 2006, 01:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin
DC you need to take your OWN advice. Seriously. All you do is act pissy and DEMAND people do things you request. Over the most PETTY things.
Demand, no? Ask politely, Yes! So, Simey is free to answer or not answer as he sees fit. But providing a non sequitur response that is pissy as well is not helpful to advancing debate on the subject.

Are you interested in debate on this subject? I am. But your only post in this thread has been to criticize me, and others, and that is unhelpful in regards to debating the subject of this thread. So, would you mind telling us what you think of Slobodan Milosevic and his trial and whether or not you think it is farce? And if so, why you think it is a farce? Thanks!
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Mar 11, 2006, 01:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Pendergast
You made sound like your opinion is obvious from the start.

Are you so full of yourself that you feel we should revolve around you?

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy
Demand, no? Ask politely, Yes! So, Simey is free to answer or not answer as he sees fit. But providing a non sequitur response that is pissy as well is not helpful to advancing debate on the subject.
And you telling Simey how to respond in a pissy manner is not helpful to advancing debate either. Yet you did it anyhow.

That tells the forum, advancing the debate isn't a concern of yours. But being high on your horse pissy is.
     
dcmacdaddy
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Mar 11, 2006, 02:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin
And you telling Simey how to respond in a pissy manner is not helpful to advancing debate either. Yet you did it anyhow.

That tells the forum, advancing the debate isn't a concern of yours. But being high on your horse pissy is.
Are you going to engage in a discussion of Slobodan Milosevic and his death without a trial or are you going to just critique and criticize everyone's posts? If it's the former, would you mind telling us what you think of Slobodan Milosevic and his trial and whether or not you think it is farce? And if so, why you think it is a farce? Thanks!
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
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Kevin
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Mar 11, 2006, 02:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy
Are you going to engage in a discussion of Slobodan Milosevic and his death without a trial or are you going to just critique and criticize everyone's posts?
DC you should have asked yourself this before criticizing Simey's.

This is just another case of you thinking it's perfectly ok for YOU to do something, but when someone does it back to you, you get all up on your high horse and start chastising them for not being on topic.

AGAIN, don't like it, don't do it.

There isn't special rules for DC, and ones for everyone else. Even though you'd like to think so.
     
Jawbone54
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Mar 11, 2006, 02:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy
Are you going to engage in a discussion of Slobodan Milosevic and his death without a trial or are you going to just critique and criticize everyone's posts? If it's the former, would you mind telling us what you think of Slobodan Milosevic and his trial and whether or not you think it is farce? And if so, why you think it is a farce? Thanks!


Back to topic...

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
His lawyer was a freakin' ultra-left-wing Canadian who claimed the charges against him were bunk and that he was a scapegoat for the Western world's inabilities. It's pretty embarrassing.

John G. Stoessinger declared Milosevic, Saddam Hussein and Adolf Hitler as the three dictators who were "truly evil." That's a pretty strong statement considering the company left out, but I think it's representative of Milosevic's actions.
Pretty telling, isn't it? Neither Milosevic or Hussein can REALLY touch Hitler in my opinion, but maybe that's just because all of my life and parents' lives he's been considered the true personification of evil.
     
Kevin
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Mar 11, 2006, 02:49 PM
 
They can't touch Hitler because they were stopped before they were able to.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Mar 11, 2006, 03:39 PM
 
No. That's incorrect.

greg
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Kevin
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Mar 11, 2006, 03:41 PM
 
And with that long thought out rebuttal, I don't know I could have thought otherwise!

You convinced me!
     
Busemann
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Mar 11, 2006, 03:47 PM
 
Why don't you try to convince him then?
     
Kevin
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Mar 11, 2006, 03:50 PM
 
Why would I feel the need to try to convince someone that wont ever agree out of principle?
     
Pendergast
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Mar 11, 2006, 03:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin
Why would I feel the need to try to convince someone that wont ever agree out of principle?
See, we (I mean, non-Kevin people) call that projection.

Of course, you are not the only one, but, I thought it was important to mirror that your way a bit.

Nothing personal. Just doing that Internet thing.
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SimeyTheLimey
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Mar 11, 2006, 03:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy
He asked you to explain YOUR opinion of something. How is Google going to provide him an explanation of YOUR opinion? Unless you have a SimeyTheLimey blog with an article entitled "Why I think the trial of Slobodan Milosevic is a farce" Google ain't gonna be much help in finding out YOUR opinion about something.

So, maybe you could politely answer the question and not be pissy about it. Here it is again so you don't have to look it up. (I will even paraphrase it for you.)
I'm not obligated to do his research for him, and if I am not interested in debating an issue, I am not obligated to debate it. All he has to do is google Milosovic trial and he can see what a circus it became. He is basically lazy.

Really, anyone who keeps reasonably abreast of current affairs ought to be already aware of the Milosovic trial. Asking me why was a stupid question. Look at the other responses here. Everyone knew the background -- except one person. Sorry, I don't have any interest in being his personal tutor.

There is really nothing much to debate here. A mass murderer died in prison technically an innocent man. His victims were denied justice. What's to debate?
     
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Mar 11, 2006, 03:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Pendergast
See, we (I mean, non-Kevin people) call that projection.

Of course, you are not the only one, but, I thought it was important to mirror that your way a bit.

Nothing personal. Just doing that Internet thing.
Not a projection, but an observation.

He has in the past, shown to react this way.
     
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Mar 11, 2006, 03:57 PM
 
Come on, now. Kevin doesn't convince. Kevin spends his time moderating and telling people what rules they're breaking.

You talk to me about long thought-out rebuttals? Do you ever use your skull, Kevin? I'm curious. Because, if you'd thought about the issue for perhaps 12 seconds, you would've realized that Hitler's "evil superiority" over Milosevic or Hussein was not because they were somehow "stopped" – Milosevic was in power for what, maybe 13 years or so, and Hussein for far longer than that.

Let me hold your hand and help you along a little here, okay? You seem to need it. Question time: what could possibly be the difference between, say, Germany, and Serbia or Iraq?

I await your realization of these issues with bated breath.

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Kevin
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Mar 11, 2006, 04:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
Come on, now. Kevin doesn't convince. Kevin spends his time moderating and telling people what rules they're breaking.

You talk to me about long thought-out rebuttals? Do you ever use your skull, Kevin? I'm curious. Because, if you'd thought about the issue for perhaps 12 seconds Let me hold your hand and help you along a little here, okay? You seem to need it.
100% Condescendly silly.

And no, you can't hold my hand.
, you would've realized that Hitler's "evil superiority" over Milosevic or Hussein was not because they were somehow "stopped" – Milosevic was in power for what, maybe 13 years or so, and Hussein for far longer than that.
What does time have to do with that? It took one 13 years to start a genocide and one only a few? How absurd.
Question time: what could possibly be the difference between, say, Germany, and Serbia or Iraq?
One had more power than the others, therefore probably wouldn't take as long to "lay the plan out"
     
Pendergast
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Mar 11, 2006, 04:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey
I'm not obligated to do his research for him, and if I am not interested in debating an issue, I am not obligated to debate it. All he has to do is google Milosovic trial and he can see what a circus it became. He is basically lazy.

Really, anyone who keeps reasonably abreast of current affairs ought to be already aware of the Milosovic trial. Asking me why was a stupid question. Look at the other responses here. Everyone knew the background -- except one person. Sorry, I don't have any interest in being his personal tutor.

There is really nothing much to debate here. A mass murderer died in prison technically an innocent man. His victims were denied justice. What's to debate?
I greatly appreciate you made the effort of 2 responses over my lazy demand...

And yes. Now that you have spoken, there is nothing to debate, indeed.
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Mar 11, 2006, 04:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Pendergast
And yes. Now that you have spoken, there is nothing to debate, indeed.
Well if YOU say so. (No one else did)
     
Busemann
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Mar 11, 2006, 04:09 PM
 
What does time have to do with that? It took one 13 years to start a genocide and one only a few? How absurd.
Saddam had been in power for 24 years and is currently touching, what, 70 years. His army turned out to be a joke, and he possessed no WMDs. He spent tons of money and resources pampering himself and his closest with huge palaces and a life in luxory. He was a rotten man, but hardly a Hitler. Not even close

Milosevic was higher on the "evil scale" than Saddam imho
     
Kevin
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Mar 11, 2006, 04:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Busemann
Saddam had been in power for 24 years and is currently touching, what, 70 years. His army turned out to be a joke, and he had no WMDs. He spent most of his money pampering himself and his closest with huge palaces and a life in luxory. He was a rotten man, but hardly a Hitler. Not even close

Milosevic was higher on the "evil scale" than Saddam imho
No one is saying he accomplished the same "evil" hitler did.

But no one can say he WOULDN'T have had he the chance.

To say someone that would gas his OWN people wouldn't have the gal to do what Hitler did (gas his own people) is asking us to believe quite a doozy.
     
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Mar 11, 2006, 04:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin
100% Condescendly silly.

You have weird fantasies old boy. And no, you can't hold my hand.

What does time have to do with that? It took one 13 years to start a genocide and one only a few? How absurd.

One had more power than the others, therefore probably wouldn't take as long to "lay the plan out"
Hahaha...I feel I have the right to be condescending, when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Hitler came to power in 1932/33. Just in case you didn't know, WWII officially started in 1939. That's about 6 years, give or take. Hitler took more than a few years to "lay the plan out."

Slobodan came to power in the early 90s, and almost immediately began the groundwork for the Bosnian war(s), as well as the Kosovo genocide. He remained in power until the late 90s I believe.

I won't go into Hussein and his conflicts. As Simey said, you can stop being lazy and look them up yourself – even though, as the global warming thread clearly showed, you have no interest in doing any research at all and prefer merely to spout your own mis-informed opinions as "fact."

greg
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ShortcutToMoncton
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Mar 11, 2006, 04:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Busemann
Saddam had been in power for 24 years and is currently touching, what, 70 years. His army turned out to be a joke, and he possessed no WMDs. He spent tons of money and resources pampering himself and his closest with huge palaces and a life in luxory. He was a rotten man, but hardly a Hitler. Not even close

Milosevic was higher on the "evil scale" than Saddam imho
You clearly don't know much about Saddam Hussein, or what he "accomplished" during his reign.

I suggest some research.

greg
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Mar 11, 2006, 04:13 PM
 
He still tortured and killed a lot of people on somewhat specious grounds.
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Busemann
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Mar 11, 2006, 04:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
You clearly don't know much about Saddam Hussein, or what he "accomplished" during his reign.

I suggest some research.

greg
What I said isn't true?

To say he had the means to emulate Hitler is, to me, pretty far fetched. His genocides and war crimes considered.
     
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Mar 11, 2006, 04:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
Hahaha...I feel I have the right to be condescending, when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
Ok now you are not only being condescending. But pretentious too!
Hitler came to power in 1932/33. Just in case you didn't know, WWII officially started in 1939. That's about 6 years, give or take. Hitler took more than a few years to "lay the plan out."
Indeed, And Germany had more power and so did Hitler. Power and resources the other two clowns have never had.
Slobodan came to power in the early 90s, and almost immediately began the groundwork for the Bosnian war(s), as well as the Kosovo genocide. He remained in power until the late 90s I believe.
Right, and he just started HIS genocide spree. So comparing to people that commits genocide isn't a far stretch.
I won't go into Hussein and his conflicts. As Simey said, you can stop being lazy and look them up yourself – even though,
Don't have to look anything up. I am fully aware of Saddam's history. Have been even before we bombed him the first time.
as the global warming thread clearly showed, you have no interest in doing any research at all and prefer merely to spout your own mis-informed opinions as "fact."
Ah Greg, you are being misleading. I told you I had ALREADY done research. I also never said I had all the facts. I said WE DON'T HAVE FACTS EITHER WAY to definitely say EITHER WAY. I was being honest.

But thanks for distorting that also.
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
You clearly don't know much about Saddam Hussein, or what he "accomplished" during his reign.

I suggest some research.
More generic rubbish that ads nothing but your own pretentious chest pounding.

We call this "verbal masturbation"

Meaning the only reason it was posted, was for your own gratification. It doesn't do anything for anyone else.
     
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Mar 11, 2006, 04:18 PM
 
As well, I should explain the concept of evil I introduced from Stoessinger. It is not merely what they accomplished. Although I've lent his book to a friend and don't have it on hand, I think he was referring to the attitude towards the rest of mankind that each man exhibited.

For example, an astute thinker might immediately ask why Stalin would not be in that list (and, incidently, I think he should be). However, I think Stoessinger points towards some qualities of selflessness Stalin exhibited, and his seeming love of his country as perhaps a (at least penultimate) goal.

greg
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Pendergast
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Mar 11, 2006, 04:20 PM
 
Well, I did some research, and here is what I found:
Milosevic found dead in prison cell

Last Updated Sat, 11 Mar 2006 08:34:50 EST
CBC News

Former Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic has been found dead in his cell at the United Nations war crimes tribunal at The Hague.

An official in the chief prosecutor's office said Milosevic was found lifeless on his bed around 10 a.m. on Saturday. He apparently had been dead for several hours, the official said.

The tribunal did not say how Milosevic, 64, had died. French Foreign Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy told reporters Milosevic died of natural causes. An autopsy is planned, along with an inquiry into the death.

Since February 2002, Milosevic had been on trial for war crimes on charges of genocide and crimes against humanity during the violent breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990s.

He suffered a heart condition and high blood pressure, which had repeatedly interrupted his trial. The hearings were entering the final phase, with arguments expected to wrap up within a few months.

His was the second death within a week at the UN detention center in Scheveningen, a suburb of The Hague. Former Croatian Serb leader Milan Babic, serving 13 years for crimes against humanity, committed suicide in his cell last weekend.

Milosevic led Serbia, the dominant Yugoslav republic, into four Balkan wars, including the 1992-95 Bosnia war, in which 200,000 people died.

He was accused of overseeing the systematic killing of about 8,000 men and boys in the Bosnian town of Srebrenica in 1995, the worst massacre on European soil since the Second World War.

Former U.S. secretary of state and envoy to the Balkans Richard Holbrook led negotiations to end the Balkan wars. The deal led to NATO deploying 60,000 peacekeepers to keep the Bosnian, Serb and Croatian armies apart.

Holbrook said Milosevic is one of the worst leaders the world has ever seen. "This man wrecked the Balkans. He was a war criminal who caused four wars, over 300,000 deaths, 2.5 million homeless."
Woaw! The farce is getting... "farcier"!! Something to debate on!!! Was that suicide? Is something wrong with The Hague UN prison? The air maybe? Or are there corrupted guards with a benevolent feeling for the poor victim of that Court's abuse?

The plot thickens, as the man was to face his final judgement in a few months...

I wonder how that compares with Guantanamo prisoners?
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Mar 11, 2006, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin
Indeed, And Germany had more power and so did Hitler. Power and resources the other two clowns have never had.
Exactly. Industrial capacity, resources and political clout in the modern-Western world.

Both severely lacking in Milosevic and Hussein. Neither of them were "stopped," as you incorrectly claimed in your original post.

You're welcome.

Originally Posted by Kevin
I told you I had ALREADY done research. I also never said I had all the facts. I said WE DON'T HAVE FACTS EITHER WAY to definitely say EITHER WAY.
Indeed. If you consider "research" to be looking up some sites on teh intarweb, well then I guess you've done research. You didn't do real research. In addition, as I last posted in the thread, the global scientific body is apparently now officially about to designate anthropocentric activity as the main cause of modern climate change. You conspicuously did not respond, even though this would seem to invalidate your claim of "not having enough facts either way."

greg
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Mar 11, 2006, 04:26 PM
 
Two is not a pattern.
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Mar 11, 2006, 04:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Busemann
What I said isn't true?

To say he had the means to emulate Hitler is, to me, pretty far fetched. His genocides and war crimes considered.
Please see my earlier reply about the definition of evil. It doesn't, and shouldn't, be based on merely the total number of deaths. That he in fact did not have the "means" to emulate Hitler is irrelevant.

greg
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Pendergast
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Mar 11, 2006, 04:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
Two is not a pattern.
I agree.

However, it is interesting to notice that these 2 guys died with such a short span.

Obviously, we need to wait for the autopsy. Although this is cause for some controversy.

But some already fear the worst! Some even accuse the USA of his murder.

Some complaint he was emprisoned "technically an innocent man" yet apparently lived in luxury.
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Spliffdaddy
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Mar 11, 2006, 05:53 PM
 
"The global scientific community"

I laugh my ass off everytime I see that term.
     
Chuckit
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Mar 11, 2006, 06:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin
And with that long thought out rebuttal, I don't know I could have thought otherwise!

You convinced me!
Maybe it didn't really deserve to be critiqued? I'm pretty sure somebody told me that's an excuse for short, dismissive answers.
Chuck
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Doofy
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Mar 11, 2006, 06:24 PM
 
My take on the whole thing may be a little different.

For a start, I don't believe that Slobby was as evil as everyone was making out - I believe he was simply backed into the position by the actions of his enemies (i.e. KLA).

I also have an inkling that his death was "assisted". I mean, if it looked like they weren't going to get a conviction, that condemns the coalition which attacked Serbia, doesn't it?
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Chuckit
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Mar 11, 2006, 06:26 PM
 
Don't see any reason to "assist" in his death. I mean, do you think Slobodan Milosevic would be acquitted?
Chuck
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von Wrangell
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Mar 11, 2006, 06:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
Don't see any reason to "assist" in his death. I mean, do you think Slobodan Milosevic would be acquitted?
Wouldn't surprise me if quite a few around here would want him acquitted.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Doofy
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Mar 11, 2006, 07:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
Don't see any reason to "assist" in his death. I mean, do you think Slobodan Milosevic would be acquitted?
How long's the trial gone on? If it were an open and shut case (as in: sure prosecution) he'd have been convicted some time back. This leads me to believe that possibly he could have been going to get off - which would be extremely unfortunate for the allies involved in the attack on Serbia.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
 
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