[rickey939]

The "Big 10" were announced/previewed at WWDC...however, I wonder what the other 290 new features/innovations in Leopard are? I can only assume that Apple takes every new (no matter how miniscule) into this count...for example:

1.) New Dock (most definitely a new feature overall)
2.) New "Open" Application icon in dock (is this considered a new feature/innovation?)
3.) New orientation of the dock background (is this considered a new feature/innovation?)
4.) More transparency in Dock (is this considered a new feature/innovation?)

Or, are there only 10 new features, but 300 "new" components (innovations) go into these mainstream features and this is all a big marketing ploy?

[- - e r i k - -]

The 270 features announced for Tiger was all posted in a kbase document after release. I suspect we can expect something similar for Leopard.

And yes, every major and minor new feature was mentioned.

[Andrew Stephens]

option b

[Chuckit]

There are actually more features up on the Leopard site, and I already knew about even more features than that. I was surprised Steve talked about, say, Dashboard again rather than making the awesome multithreading in Leopard one of the features. Apple really went out of its way to make sure Macs can get full use of all their processors. You can get a lot of multithreading for free, and the APIs Apple has created for developers sound incredibly cool.

[passmaster16]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

There are actually more features up on the Leopard site, and I already knew about even more features than that. I was surprised Steve talked about, say, Dashboard again rather than making the awesome multithreading in Leopard one of the features. Apple really went out of its way to make sure Macs can get full use of all their processors. You can get a lot of multithreading for free, and the APIs Apple has created for developers sound incredibly cool.

Yeah I was surprised that he even went into the already mentioned features such as dashboard and time machine. Honestly I'm more interested in the other 290 innovations because those will probably make a larger impact in day to day work flow than the big 10. Innovations such as core annimation and improved multithreading leads me to believe that Apple is more concerned with laying the groundwork for future releases than trying to pile in a ton of features in this release. Obviously they have improved the base OS with every iteration, but perhaps 10.5 is really prepping for newer more visable features in 10.6 and future releases. I wonder if the GUI in 10.5 is going to be any more responsive than 10.4?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by passmaster16 

Yeah I was surprised that he even went into the already mentioned features such as dashboard and time machine. Honestly I'm more interested in the other 290 innovations because those will probably make a larger impact in day to day work flow than the big 10. Innovations such as core annimation and improved multithreading leads me to believe that Apple is more concerned with laying the groundwork for future releases than trying to pile in a ton of features in this release. Obviously they have improved the base OS with every iteration, but perhaps 10.5 is really prepping for newer more visable features in 10.6 and future releases. I wonder if the GUI in 10.5 is going to be any more responsive than 10.4?

I think you're really mistaken. Just what's been shown so far is more than any previous OS release (though admittedly none of it is as "cool" as, say, Expose). And that's not even counting the improvements to the system frameworks that developers will be able to take advantage of and make their apps even cooler on Leopard.

[passmaster16]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I think you're really mistaken. Just what's been shown so far is more than any previous OS release (though admittedly none of it is as "cool" as, say, Expose). And that's not even counting the improvements to the system frameworks that developers will be able to take advantage of and make their apps even cooler on Leopard.

Not sure I agree there. There are definitely key improvements in 10.5, no question, but to say more than any other release? I'd say 10.2 was probably the biggest jump even if the number of innovations stated by Apple was lower than for Leopard. I do think that the OS is maturing to the point where we probably won't see the same level of differences as we did when it was in earlier stages of development. Like you said, the key features will be those that we don't see and that developers will be able to use.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by passmaster16 

Not sure I agree there. There are definitely key improvements in 10.5, no question, but to say more than any other release? I'd say 10.2 was probably the biggest jump even if the number of innovations stated by Apple was lower than for Leopard.

What, Quartz Extreme and CUPS? To recap, here's what we know we're getting in Leopard:

• Quartz 2D Extreme
• Resolution Independence
• Spaces
• Time Machine
• Core Animation
• Control other Macs remotely
• Stacks
• Boot Camp
• Back To My Mac
• Heavy rewriting of many components for multithreading (e.g., FTFF)
• Quick Look
• Previews for any document type
• HTML Mail
• To-dos
• iChat Theater
• Parental controls
• Spotlighting remote volumes

I really don't think Jaguar had enough big features to measure up to that. And that's not even counting all the kickass APIs opened up to developers for their apps to use, including systemwide 64-bit support.

[passmaster16]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I really don't think Jaguar had enough big features to measure up to that. And that's not even counting all the kickass APIs opened up to developers for their apps to use, including systemwide 64-bit support.

I'm not arguing that those features aren't nice improvements. I'm looking at it more in terms of how usable the system is with each iteration. When you look at going from 10.4 to 10.5, what features other than the new finder are going to make a significant impact to the end user? Sure some people will use Time Machine or Spaces but are they more important than general usability improvements? I suppose that is a subjective question.

Jaguar didn't have a list of innovations like Leopard does, but the usability of the system was the highlight of that release. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited about Leopard and I plan on upgrading regardless of what it has or doesn't have. I just think many people are under the impression that you have to see major visable improvements with every release of an operating system. My initial post was just to say that OS X has come a long way, and because of that, I would expect that many of the improvements going forward will be things that we may not be able to visibly see.

[- - e r i k - -]

Spaces and Stacks will be definitive general usability improvements, just like Exposé did. Time Machine on the other hand is going to be a genuine life-saver for a lot of people. So yes, I'd say that Leopard will be the biggest and most refined release of Mac OS X so far.

I think what we are seeing here is a bit of a feature-fatigue. People simply aren't as excited about new things still. Mac OS X is a mature operating system, and for new features to be perceived as cool anymore, they have to be more radical than before. Would people go mental for stacks if it had been introduced before Exposé? You bet!

So instead of people complaining, simply because they have been spoiled by previous innovations by Apple, they should take a step back and look at what Apple really is giving us here: A solid, refined operating system that will actually help you get your work done in the most pleasant manner possible. After all, an OS is just something that enables you to do your productive stuff (or be entertained by games, music and movies) without getting too much in your way.

[peeb]

The same problem that Vista has - lots of things that look cool, but basically, XP works pretty well - no real killer app, so to speak. Now, of course, a lot of people will upgrade to Leopard because it is cool, but for most people, I don't think much apart from Time Machine will really change the way they work.

[voodoo]

I said before when 10.4 was released that this was the first release of OS X I was happy with and should have been 10.0 (obviously then OS X probably wouldn't be out yet, but that's besides the point) and it seems to me that 10.5 is going be what 10.1 should have been.. If you are already feeling a knee-jerk tingle, read on;

Meaning that Tiger was a feature complete and fully usable OS while Leopard seems to be a fully refined and polished version of that OS.

After Leopard we will have to wait a long long time before a major OS upgrade. Mac OS X is for all intents and purposes done. It is ready.

Any upgrades the next 3 or so years after 10.5 is released will be small ones to reflect new hardware and/or new developments in OS interface and core. I'd be surprised if there are any plans to release OS X 10.6 before 2010. The year we make contact. I predict 10.5.15 will be out before 10.6

V

[peeb]

Unless there is some major interface breakthrough, similar to the mouse, or windowing. Some real paradigm shift in how OSs work.

[- - e r i k - -]

I sort of agree with Voodoo here (not the part about how 10.4 should have been 10.0 and 10.5 10.1 though, that's just naive mindplay). 10.5 is the refined, final OS X. It has all the spit and polish an operating system should have, and that if we waited two years for 10.5, we can expect at least that or even more for 10.6.

There won't be a paradigm shift in operating systems for years to come, but from the sound of most people here they expected no less of the "secret features" of 10.5

[peeb]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

There won't be a paradigm shift in operating systems for years to come

Bold words, I tend to agree, but doesn't that smack a bit of 'no one will ever need more than 640k?'

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Bold words, I tend to agree, but doesn't that smack a bit of 'no one will ever need more than 640k?'

I think it smacks more of realism combined with experience through observation. There have been some interesting development in input methods lately, the Wiimote and Multitouch come to mind. It's just that there does not seem to be anything that's better than what we already have. Like car input devices, it seems that the computer industry has already "settled" on what works best.

I'm not saying that there will be a revolutionary paradigm shift in how we control our cars anytime soon though

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

I sort of agree with Voodoo here (not the part about how 10.4 should have been 10.0 and 10.5 10.1 though, that's just naive mindplay).

No that's just simple truth. For me 10.4 was essentially what I considered to be OS X 10.0 for all intents and purposes and since it can run on all machines that were in the Apple linup in 2001 then there is no technological barrier for it to have been the original release.

It is all academic of course, but there you go. Tiger is what Cheetah should have been. It felt like four years of beta testing until Tiger was released.

Call it naive mindplay or whatever suits your Apple-apologist mind, but you're wrong. Ah Apple-apologists are so predictable. Never let actual truth upset your worldview. Saying Leopard should have been the 10.0 release would have been naive mindplay (or at least wishful thinking) because 2001 Macs can't run it (for the most part).

V

[- - e r i k - -]

Apple apologist? Don't kid yourself. I am only correcting the mass hysteria of the deluded masses here, be they irrationaly pro or con Apple as I've always done. I'll jump on Apple when I see fit - as with their lockdown of the iPhone and non-inclusion of essential phone features that are just mind-boggling. Not to mention the horrible QA in the release of FCS2 and Motion 3 in particular.

You on the other hand have the audacity to call 10.0-10.3 a beta test while the rest of us was using it to earn our living. That my friend is naivite, call it academic if you want, but it's just completely irellevant. In your world, every other operating system is in a perpetual beta state. Your "feelings" simply does not come in to play. So don't patronise me with your silly ad hominems and little thought through "academics" as it just does not contribute any thing.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Apple apologist? Don't kid yourself. I am only correcting the mass hysteria of the deluded masses here, be they irrationaly pro or con Apple as I've always done. I'll jump on Apple when I see fit

As do I, but it doesn't make your POV or opinion squat more worthy than mine, don't you know.

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

You on the other hand have the audacity to call 10.0-10.3 a beta test while the rest of us was using it to earn our living. That my friend is naivite, call it academic if you want, but it's just completely irellevant. In your world, every other operating system is in a perpetual beta state. Your "feelings" simply does not come in to play. So don't patronise me with your silly ad hominems and little thought through "academics" as it just does not contribute any thing.

Of course I have the audacity, I bought the damn thing, every iteration and I use it so I can damn well give an educated opinion on its features, bugs and evolution through the years.

Don't try to tell me what it is like in 'my world' when you don't have a clue about it.. how could you?

As for patronizing, don't dish it if you can't take it.. simple as that.

Your perpetual apologizing and Jesus complex 'correcting' everyone who doesn't agree with you in this thread is indeed annoying apart from being partonizing and audacious -- things you criticize *me* for doing. That's rich.

Regardless, you replied and commented on *my* post and *my* opinion with authority you simply don't have. Perhaps it is time you step away from the computer and relax because you stopped making sense a long time ago in this thread. It was somewhere when your opinions became more worthwhile than other users' opinons.

Also the excuse that you make a living by using OS X indicates that you spend far more time using non-Apple apps and the beta-ness of OS X can completely escape you when you don't actually use the OS that much. Besides, no matter what you do, what apps you use nobody gets paid money for *using the OS* or the iApps.

On that level, everybody is an equal. So, off the high horse already!

V

[- - e r i k - -]

I stopped reading when you came to 'Jesus complex'. Seriously dude, step away from that computer, I can hear your blood boiling from across the globe. Let's not bring your other delusions into this debate, shall we? You are clearly deluded enough as it is what with accusing me for not using the OS .

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by voodoo Today, at 03:17 AM

Perhaps it is time you step away from the computer and relax because you stopped making sense a long time ago in this thread. It was somewhere when your opinions became more worthwhile than other users' opinons.

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - Today, at03:33 AM

Seriously dude, step away from that computer,

Aww as much as I consider imitation the highest form of flattery, you really should have read the rest of my post. It would have saved you the embarrassment.

As much as I love the occational internet cat-fight, you're a boring opponent because you're think your opinions are valid arguments and disregard other people's opinions with them.

Here's something for you to ponder on: your opinions are not facts. Be careful who you call naive and don't dish something if you can't take it.

It just makes you look like a pussy (not felis domesticus)

V

[krove]

With each major iteration of Mac OS X, Apple has offered increasingly more improvements on the "backend" in comparison to visible front-end features. This is anecdotal, but I will use it to contrast the idea that "Mac OS X is essentially done." Do you guys truly believe that Apple's slate will be empty once 10.5 is released? You must be nuts if you think there aren't Apple engineers with _GREAT_ ideas just waiting for implementation. Granted, most of these are backend improvements that aren't visualized by end users directly, but that doesn't mean they aren't worth implementing.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that iPhone is just the tip of the iceberg as far as multitouch goes. Taking that technology to the desktop would change a lot and would require a completely different set of UI rules (like those emerging with the iPhone.

[krove]

Would the two of you cut it out? Both of your opinions matter, okay? Stop bickering.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

No that's just simple truth. For me 10.4 was essentially what I considered to be OS X 10.0 for all intents and purposes and since it can run on all machines that were in the Apple linup in 2001 then there is no technological barrier for it to have been the original release.

It is all academic of course, but there you go. Tiger is what Cheetah should have been. It felt like four years of beta testing until Tiger was released.

You think 10.0 should have been Panther only crashier and with useless widgets assigned to the F12 key?

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Here's something for you to ponder on: your opinions are not facts. Be careful who you call naive and don't dish something if you can't take it.

It just makes you look like a pussy (not felis domesticus)

Well, you taking a technology discussion and turning into something personal only makes you look like...well...an idiot. Or worse.

That's why you should be the one to step away from your computer until you've learnt to have an adult discourse. You look especially stupid because I was agreeing with you. You just took me disagreeing with a part of your statement as a personal insult and that's where you failed.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

You think 10.0 should have been Panther only crashier and with useless widgets assigned to the F12 key?

No, not really. Do you think 10.2 should have had the Apple logo in the middle of the menubar, equally stable as 10.4 and with Spaces?

V

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Well, you taking a technology discussion and turning into something personal

You asked for it, by making it personal in the first place.

I know you're a fool, you know you're a fool, but now everyone knows. Congrats!

Funny thing is that you're also a smiple and humorless twit in real life:



Væ'så snill. Ikkje kom tilbake til Noreg, landet er sååå mykje betre utan deg og æ kan ikkje tro at det er noen person som saknar deg der.

V

[shinykaro]

As hilarious as this thread has gotten, we're also a little off-topic, eh? And I don't think anyone would disagree that Tiger is a stable and robust OS that was built well enough and innovative enough to carry Apple through nearly two years (right?) without a major update simply because it didn't need one. There's a pretty strong consensus about its quality and that's why so many people upgraded. I can sort of see how previous versions might feel like betas in comparison, I don't think that was meant to hurt anyone's feelings.

So here's a question for all of y'all informed types. Is there any place I can find information or side-by-side comparisons of the OS X versions? I'd love to learn more about its history and iterations.

And whether they are on the front or back end, I would also love to see a complete, or at least expanded list of these new and improved features.

[USNA91]

Wow, and I thought the hilarity level over on my other favorite website was great!

What was this thread about, again?

[MindFad]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

You asked for it, by making it personal in the first place.

I know you're a fool, you know you're a fool, but now everyone knows. Congrats!

Funny thing is that you're also a smiple and humorless twit in real life:



Væ'så snill. Ikkje kom tilbake til Noreg, landet er sååå mykje betre utan deg og æ kan ikkje tro at det er noen person som saknar deg der.

V

Interpret—INTERPRET please! I don't understand the potential bilingual smackdown!!!

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by MindFad 

Interpret—INTERPRET please! I don't understand the potential bilingual smackdown!!!

I was hoping erik would keep his word and stay away from Norway for all time. He didn't even see the humor in the Grandiosa song.

That's just sad and seriously uptight.

V

[olePigeon]

I'm breaking my Apple NDA by telling you this, but Pong from OpenFirmware was ported to EFI.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

I was hoping erik would keep his word and stay away from Norway for all time. He didn't even see the humor in the Grandiosa song.

That's just sad and seriously uptight.

V

The only sad thing here is you resorting to personal attacks and internet stalking in what was a technological thread where I agreed with you. Who's the humorless twit again?

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

The only sad thing here is you resorting to personal attacks and internet stalking in what was a technological thread where I agreed with you. Who's the humorless twit again?

Stalking? Hehe you flatter yourself.

Of course I bought the Grandiosa song off iTMS and happened to see your whining about it as I read the reviews.

Agreeing with me is fine, so is diagreeing, but patronizing and projecting that's another thing. Especially in a tech thread.

Disagreeing about when OS X 'went out of beta' so to speak, that I don't mind one bit. Calling my opinion 'naive' is making it personal and adding your 'superior' opinion on top of that as 'truth' is just sad.

We have to agree to disagree on my call on the beta-ness of OS X 10.3 but it is an opinion based on my experience. Thus I would have liked to see 10.4 as the original release of OS X, but as I said, that's academic. It would never have happened. As I mentioned also in my original post.

I stand by what I said, I never felt completely comfortable with 10.3 even though some did. I'm probably a more demanding and less forgiving user than you, I suppose or that we simply don't use the OS the same way. Which I suspect is more likely.

Either way, logical disagreement is fine and in fact desireable. Patronizing, personal dismissiveness, no.

V

[krove]

After asking nicely for - - e r i k - - and voodoo to stop, I have to say that both of you are -><- this close to being put on my ignore list for offering ZERO constructive dialog in these forums. Every fracking thread I read has the two of you arguing and insulting each other.

It's really tiresome, and I don't care who started what. You're both acting like children. One of you (or preferably both) should take the high road and drop it.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by krove 

After asking nicely for - - e r i k - - and voodoo to stop, I have to say that both of you are -><- this close to being put on my ignore list for offering ZERO constructive dialog in these forums. Every fracking thread I read has the two of you arguing and insulting each other.

Clearly you haven't read much of my posts then. Maybe you should go through them first and then decide if they are constructive or not.


Oh and for the record: I could not care less if you put me on ignore or not.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

[*]Quartz 2D Extreme

I'm hoping we get this. It hasn't been confirmed or denied.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by goMac 

I'm hoping we get this. It hasn't been confirmed or denied.

Oh, I thought it had. My bad.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Oh, I thought it had. My bad.

I don't think so. Being an ADC member I don't want to say something that will get me in trouble, but I think Apple's intentions are to get Q2D Extreme into Leopard. But so far they haven't said that it is in for sure.

I'm not at WWDC so I haven't played with the new build. Who knows. Maybe they added it in the new build.