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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > iPhone, iPad & iPod > Does Apple service stolen iPhones? Answer: yes

Does Apple service stolen iPhones? Answer: yes
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amazing
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Dec 31, 2011, 08:48 PM
 
So here's the source of the story:

Does Apple service stolen phones? - thestar.com

Someone can come in with a story about buying a friend-of-a-friend's iPhone, and how it doesn't work--and can get a replacement?

Here's what Australia does: Lost or stolen phones from any and all Australian carriers are added to a country-wide database and are automatically deactivated.

"Lost or stolen mobile phones will now become almost worthless, because once reported as missing by their owners they will be blocked on all digital networks across the country. "

AMTA - The Mobile Phone Industry Statement
AMTA - Lost and stolen phones

ebay even gives advice on how to check the IMEI so that you know you're bidding on a phone that hasn't been deactivated.

eBay Australia Guides - IMEI number stolen search

Now, here's the important news: Phone theft has gone way, way down.

Let me repeat that: Thieves don't steal phones anymore, because a stolen phone is worthless.

Imagine that: nobody's gonna rip your iPhone out of your hand and run with it!

Guess the Aussies are way smarter than us--right, mate?!!! Corollary: how dumb are we?
     
subego
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Jan 1, 2012, 02:07 AM
 
Problem is, crooks are beginning to realize the data on the phone is worth more than the phone itself.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jan 1, 2012, 04:22 AM
 
The other issue is: Apple sells 25 million of these a quarter. Plus iPods. Plus iPads. There's 250 million activated iOS devices out there.

If Apple kept a database, they would have to keep a HUGE paper trail for every single iPod/iPhone/iPad that was reported stolen, even if it just slipped in between the sofa cushions and was found again.

They'd need proof of purchase, police report, keep track of who reported it stolen, and keep track of it having been found again, all verified by the original owner.

What are they gonna do to the poor sod who bought his buddy's used iPhone that he'd reported stolen but later found again in his clothes hamper and now has a problem with it? Have him play Air Hockey HD with a Genius until the cops show up, and then call him a thief?

This kind of stuff is an insurance's job.
     
lpkmckenna
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Jan 1, 2012, 04:51 AM
 
Ha ha, Apple is out $500+ because they couldn't be bothered to do the bare minimum for a customer.
     
ghporter
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Jan 1, 2012, 08:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
The other issue is: Apple sells 25 million of these a quarter. Plus iPods. Plus iPads. There's 250 million activated iOS devices out there.

If Apple kept a database, they would have to keep a HUGE paper trail for every single iPod/iPhone/iPad that was reported stolen, even if it just slipped in between the sofa cushions and was found again.

They'd need proof of purchase, police report, keep track of who reported it stolen, and keep track of it having been found again, all verified by the original owner.

What are they gonna do to the poor sod who bought his buddy's used iPhone that he'd reported stolen but later found again in his clothes hamper and now has a problem with it? Have him play Air Hockey HD with a Genius until the cops show up, and then call him a thief?

This kind of stuff is an insurance's job.
I would agree that it is a lot of work to keep up with what has been reported stolen among the millions of iOS devices out there, except that Apple already has a database with everything else about all these items. Adding a boolean field that says "reported stolen" would be trivial. And when someone brings in an item that is listed as "reported stolen," I can envision a process where the Genius Bar person would simply say "I'm sorry, but I can't accept this item for service unless John Doe, the original purchaser, authorizes it. Would you like Apple Care to call him for you now?" No confrontation, just "that's the rules" sort of stuff.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jan 1, 2012, 09:32 AM
 
Apple doesn't track anything as reported stolen. When I worked for a reseller the delivery driver was in on a trick stealing our deliveries before they arrived. One time 17 MacBook Pros went missing before they got to us.
I spoke to Apple HQ in the UK and eventually they came back to me and said they would not log the serial numbers as stolen on their service databases or track them in any way "in case someone bought one in good faith". The local police were not amused.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jan 1, 2012, 10:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I would agree that it is a lot of work to keep up with what has been reported stolen among the millions of iOS devices out there, except that Apple already has a database with everything else about all these items. Adding a boolean field that says "reported stolen" would be trivial. And when someone brings in an item that is listed as "reported stolen," I can envision a process where the Genius Bar person would simply say "I'm sorry, but I can't accept this item for service unless John Doe, the original purchaser, authorizes it. Would you like Apple Care to call him for you now?" No confrontation, just "that's the rules" sort of stuff.
It's not about the work.

The situation here is that you are basically asking them to maintain a criminal database over dozens of millions of cases, not just a neutral device database. Theft is a crime. Keeping track of stolen devices implies assuming a responsibility for those devices, as there is absolutely no point whatsoever to tracking these things and then not reporting them as they come in.

The consequence is direct police involvement at the genius bar (anything else, such as just asking them to leave if they refuse to call (or just can't reach) the hick guy in Nebraska they bought the used iPhone from via eBay, would be assisting a crime, no? And would a call be enough? Are you going to waive a criminal accusation on the basis of a phone call? Surely you'd need at least a signature signed under oath). That's preposterous.

And again, you can't just keep a database making accusations of a crime against people without some legal authority and a whole department dealing with police reports, false claims, etc.

Quite apart from that, this kind of thing may even be possible in the United States, but in most civilized countries, it would almost impossible to run something like that due to data concerns.

DEACTIVATING a phone through an IMEI is a different matter—the carriers already have these databases, and simply (recoverably) turning off a device already tied to a verified and billable account through a legal contract document is a completely different situation.
( Last edited by Spheric Harlot; Jan 1, 2012 at 11:04 AM. )
     
ghporter
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Jan 1, 2012, 01:27 PM
 
I actually meant simply marking a device as "reported," not making any judgment calls on that flag. A device with uncertain or contested ownership that gets service may wind up being bad for Apple, in court or in the press, but establishing a policy that, without taking sides, avoids facilitating criminals' use of stolen property, would be helpful to everyone.

I certainly don't think it will happen. Apple has a history of not taking their leadership position in the consumer electronics market seriously, at least where customer service comes in. They do fine with that most of the time, but they do not lead in that area, either by quality or innovation. Pity.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jan 1, 2012, 01:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I actually meant simply marking a device as "reported," not making any judgment calls on that flag.
That IS making a judgement call.

Because either you refuse to work on it, resulting in hundreds of thousands of angry customers and probably a few dozen very public lawsuits, or you don't, in which case there is no point in collecting this privacy nightmare of a database in the first place.

Tell me, what happens when a customer brings in a defective device that he bought via eBay a year ago that was, at some point, reported stolen? It's an iPhone; he needs it daily.

I can't even begin to imagine the press.
A device with uncertain or contested ownership that gets service may wind up being bad for Apple, in court or in the press, but establishing a policy that, without taking sides, avoids facilitating criminals' use of stolen property, would be helpful to everyone.
There are 250 million iOS devices out there. There are dozens of millions of Macs out there. There are hundreds of millions of iPods.

When does this database tracking end? It obviously needs to cover all categories of devices.

With the whole legal back-end, following up on paperwork, getting ownership/sales verification (which will probably take days at least, if not weeks, in most every case: We're talking about paper, signatures, personal declarations), and the whole shebang, I would expect this to what, triple? Apple's employee numbers.

In addition, it would add days to weeks to any contested repair, and I'm pretty sure it would get thrown out by European privacy law experts the minute a process was sketched out.
     
amazing  (op)
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Jan 1, 2012, 06:32 PM
 
If you read the articles quotes, it's the carriers that maintain the database, based on police reports. Within 24 to 48 hours of the police report, the phone--any phone--is inactive, and can't be reactivated.

And in terms of buying a legit phone--any phone--you can check the IMEI.

Here's another analysis from San Fran:

An easy way to curb smart-phone thieves - SFGate

“Anyone thinking about stealing or receiving a stolen phone will now have to think twice before getting it reconnected,” he said.

"The mobiles industry has spent more than $7 million on technology to block IMEI numbers. This includes the development of technology to block IMEI numbers on each GSM network and for AMTA to share the information between the carriers. AMTA uses a messaging platform which was developed by the Australian Communications Industry Forum to streamline industry business processes called the Electronic Information Exchange (EIE). The hosting, operations, support and maintenance of the EIE are provided by Paradigm One Pty Ltd. "

Why aren't US carriers forced to do this??

"When American carriers are asked why they don't do the same, there is a lot of huffing and puffing and hand waving, but none of it is very convincing. Frankly, the carriers don't gain anything from putting in this service, and actually add customers if someone signs up a stolen phone with them. As for the phone companies, every stolen phone is a potential new sale."

"Companies would never want to admit that stolen phones are good for their bottom line. And they don't have a good excuse for why they can't implement something that has been successful in Australia."

Bottom line: crime pays...???
     
amazing  (op)
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Jan 1, 2012, 06:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Ha ha, Apple is out $500+ because they couldn't be bothered to do the bare minimum for a customer.
Apple doesn't lose $500--they make a profit over the 2-year contract of a stolen phone.
     
amazing  (op)
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Jan 1, 2012, 06:52 PM
 
And yes: Apple would have to cooperate and implement the deactivation of stolen phones legitimately reported to them.

Apple would possibly also have to contribute $$ to maintaining the database, just like the carriers.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jan 1, 2012, 06:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by amazing View Post
If you read the articles quotes, it's the carriers that maintain the database, based on police reports. Within 24 to 48 hours of the police report, the phone--any phone--is inactive, and can't be reactivated.

And in terms of buying a legit phone--any phone--you can check the IMEI.
Exactly.

The carriers have legally binding contacts with their customers, have verified IDs, and have exact records of which devices, by IMEI, were handed out to which account.

Apple has none of those things.
     
lpkmckenna
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Jan 1, 2012, 07:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by amazing View Post
Apple doesn't lose $500--they make a profit over the 2-year contract of a stolen phone.
Um, no they won't. They might make some money back thru iTunes and the App Store, but if you bring a phone you fully own (or stole) to a carrier for activation, the phone maker earns nothing.
     
lpkmckenna
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Jan 1, 2012, 07:38 PM
 
Apple doesn't need to make a new database, they just need to participate in the retrieval of a stolen phone with the information they already have. They could have helped this guy with the information they already had, but they chose not to.
     
amazing  (op)
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Jan 1, 2012, 07:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Um, no they won't. They might make some money back thru iTunes and the App Store, but if you bring a phone you fully own (or stole) to a carrier for activation, the phone maker earns nothing.
oops, my bad, forgot about that.

Darn, that means ATT or VZ makes all the money off the monthly contract.

Yeah, the carriers are REALLY gonna want to deactivate stolen phones...
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jan 1, 2012, 08:28 PM
 
To everyone arguing that tracking stolen devices would be too much of a challenge, this is nonsense. Apple has a system in place where they can note work carried out on a device with a given serial number, adding a tick box or a comment that it has been reported stolen would be no big deal to them.

I can't imagine they'd want to have the police at the genius bar every day or two though. It would be simpler with a Mac as they could simply take it in for repair and have the thief picked up when they came back for it.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
amazing  (op)
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Jan 1, 2012, 11:36 PM
 
Once a system is in place denying activation to stolen devices, and once that enforcement measure is massively advertised, nobody will be bringing in stolen devices to Apple Stores.

Thieves are not dumb: first off, it's no longer worth stealing phones. Next, there's no way to trick Apple.

Buyers of stolen goods are not dumb either--the publicity would ensure that people would know not to buy. Just give folks a website or phone number to check whether an IMEI is OK = no buyers of stolen phones.
     
ghporter
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Jan 2, 2012, 08:04 AM
 
I see the point about buying a phone through eBay and later getting a hassle about it. But with carriers tracking devices that are reported stolen, I'm starting to think that Apple can simply coast on their current "don't care" policy and let thieves bring in phones to be repaired because the carrier won't reactivate the phone. I still think Apple could do better for their customers by keeping track of when things (iPods, MBPs, etc.) are reported stolen through police channels and thus making it easier for the legitimate owner to recover the stolen property, but this would probably wind up being something akin to Dell's system. That's a PITA.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Big Mac
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Jan 2, 2012, 08:50 AM
 
What's Dell's system?

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
amazing  (op)
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Jan 2, 2012, 12:12 PM
 
Anyway, the whole point is that Australia's had this system in place since 2003.

Repeat: since 2003...

The system works, so why isn't it law here?
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jan 2, 2012, 03:04 PM
 
Talk to Al Franken to take it to the carriers (it's their job).

Seriously, this is right up his alley, regardless of partisan politics.
     
ghporter
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Jan 2, 2012, 08:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
What's Dell's system?
You buy the computer and they "register" it to you, so your whole user profile (name, address, etc.) are linked to the machine and all you have to do is log in and request service for any machine registered to your profile. Great as far as it goes, but what happens if you sell it? The original buyer has to inform Dell that the machine has changed hands for the second buyer to get covered service under warranty. Still not horrible, except that it's a pain to do. Oh, and Dell sells through third parties - except they really sell TO third parties and register the computers to the third parties, so if you buy from one of these, you have to convince them to change the registration so you can get service. This is precisely what happened to me the last time I bought a Dell through one of their "partners." The Army and Air Force Exchange Service has a "Dell Store" through which one can buy a BTO Dell. But when the laptop I got for my son showed up with a dead WiFi card, I could not get service without jumping through a bunch of hoops to prove that I'd bought the machine "through" AAFES and thus was the proper owner... For the record, the "service" part of "The Army and Air Force Exchange Service" seems to be entirely that they take advantage of a captive audience of "service members." But that's another rant.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
jeseifert84
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Jan 10, 2012, 01:04 PM
 
"I purchased my iPad 2 August 23. 2011. This was my first apple product I had purchased, ever. No more than 18 days later I had a break-in to my apartment, in which the device with other items was stolen. Since I had no knowledge of "find my device app", I hadn't installed it. You can see my fist apple product ever (also brand new!). I called of course the police and taken a report. I went the next day to the Apple Store to have them take down the serial# and black list it, so no one can repair it there. Well "nothing we can do" seems to be the motto for Apple. So I bitterly came to the conclusion that I never will see the iPad again, till I received an email for "authorization and service request" and receipt for the repair of my iPad 2. What a chance that the "new owner" of my device had failed to register the iPad to himself (with all the online help on “how to register a stole iPad”). I followed up of course with the store and the police in that area one day after I received those emails. I have respect for the privacy law and will patiently wait for the police to follow up with a Subpoena.

In conclusion and after I reviewed several online forums about similar situations with Apple devices, I come to the opinion that Apple should offer a Black listing, for people like me. It does look very bad that Apple services stolen items. Should Apple not be more proactive about preventing crime? I guess the only thing Apple cares about is "money talks, and no questions ask" to thieves.

Thank you for reading my suggestion and let me vent my frustration,

Ex-proud owner of an Apple iPad 2.


I am still frustrated and probably wont hear about this situation for another 4 month again.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jan 10, 2012, 07:41 PM
 
The "Find my iDevice" app doesn't need to be installed.

IIRC, you are actually asked during set-up (since iOS 5) whether you want to have the Find My iPad service switched on, with an explanation of what it does.
     
   
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