[Koralatov]

Damn. As part of my plan to use iChat AV with my little brother, I just realised that I deleted it way back when I first got my iMac, thinking I wouldn't need it as Adium was the better choice. I now realise the error of my ways.

Is there any way to get it back, or reinstall it? I have my Tiger disc lying around, if I can dig it off that? Or am I going to have to reinstall everything from scratch?

[angelmb]

I guess Pacifist would let you to get the iChat package from the installer… never have tried it really, anyway, someone could upload it for you… kind of this

MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

* sorry about the icon, it is from Jaguar's iChat, I like to have the AOL Running Man there…

[Koralatov]

Thanks for that, angelmb. Your kindness is very much appreciated!

[Koralatov]

Damn. For some reason, it's not working. I get a message saying:

The application iChat quit unexpectedly.

Mac OS X and other applications are not affected.

Click Reopen to open the application again. Click Report to see more details or send a report to Apple.

Reopening does nothing; it just crashes again. Any ideas what's gone wrong?

[CharlesS]

It might be the wrong version of iChat for your OS version.

If you use Pacifist (link in my sig), you can open up the OS X install packages and extract any individual app that you want, including iChat.

[frdmfghtr]

You could also insert the original recovery disc and select the "install optional software only" package (or some name to that effect). From in there you can pick and choose what apps to recover; iChat should be one of them.

[Person Man]

If you had Leopard, you could run the "optional install" package. It contains standalone installers for most of the included apps. Perfect for restoring an accidentally deleted Safari, or iChat, for example.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by frdmfghtr 

You could also insert the original recovery disc and select the "install optional software only" package (or some name to that effect). From in there you can pick and choose what apps to recover; iChat should be one of them.

Leopard only. The OP is on Tiger.

[Art Vandelay]

Tiger has it too.

[Art Vandelay]

Also, whether you use Pacifist or the Optional Install option, you will need to run the latest combo updater to get iChat in sync with the current version of the OS.

[angelmb]

Sorry about it not being useful at all, it is a PowerPC iChat 3.1.8 from OS X 10.4.10… which OS X are you running there?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

It might be the wrong version of iChat for your OS version.

If you use Pacifist (link in my sig), you can open up the OS X install packages and extract any individual app that you want, including iChat.

Honestly this is the best/safest option. Charles has really done a wonderful job on this application. I've been using it since the early days of OS X.

[Art Vandelay]

Actually, Pacifist is unnecessary for this. Just use the Optional Installs installer on your Tiger disc and select iChat from there. Then grab the latest combo update from Apple to get iChat updated to match the rest of the OS.

Pacifist is a great app but it is not needed when Apple has provided a tool for this.

[Kevin]

And it takes twice as long to do it with Apple's "tool"

Believe me I tried. Pacifists way is MUCH faster and less bothersome.

I also just used Pacifist the other day to grab a fresh copy of the Extras.rsrc. Which BTW Apple doesn't give you an option to do unless you want to reinstall the whole OS. With Pacifist I didn't need to.

[Art Vandelay]

I'm not sure how having to go download a 3rd party utility and using it is faster than inserting a disc and running the Optional Installs package. It took 30 seconds to install iChat on a test I just did. It took over a minute to just download Pacifist.

I never said Pacifist is unnecessary in general. For getting pieces of the OS that aren't covered by the Optional Install package, it is a great utility. I was just saying it is is unnecessary to tell people to go download something when Apple provides a utility to do it quite easily. I also don't get why you quoted "tool."

[Art Vandelay]

I just did a timed test for both options.

Optional Installs from Tiger disc:
Insert disc and wait for mount = 12 seconds
Open Optional Installs.mpkg at root of disc, navigate through Installer and select iChat = 11 seconds
Authenticate and install = 28 seconds
Done.
Total time = 51 seconds

Pacifist:
Download it once you've found it = 24 seconds (8 Mb/s cable)
Insert disc and wait for mount = 12 seconds
Open Pacifist and wait for shareware timer = 15 seconds
Select Apple Install Discs and wait for package scan = 134 seconds
Do search for iChat package = 3 seconds
Install iChat = 129 seconds
Done.
Total time = 317 seconds (293 seconds if you already have Pacifist)

Pacifist took over 6 times longer. The longest delays were scanning the disc for packages and verifying the files for the install. Plus it isn't as intuitive for a novice user to pick out a specific app to reinstall. It's not inconceivable for a user to get confused and not know what to select to get iChat or whatever specific application they want.

[Koralatov]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

Also, whether you use Pacifist or the Optional Install option, you will need to run the latest combo updater to get iChat in sync with the current version of the OS.

Well, I managed to reinstall it from the Tiger disk, and still nada. I tried running software update, but it didn't find anything for it. It still isn't working. I'm getting very confused here...

Originally Posted by angelmb 

Sorry about it not being useful at all, it is a PowerPC iChat 3.1.8 from OS X 10.4.10… which OS X are you running there?

It's exactly the right version, which is the weird thing. I'm on 10.4.10 on a G4 iMac, but it doesn't appear to be working. I genuinely can't understand what's wrong...

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

I'm not sure how having to go download a 3rd party utility and using it is faster than inserting a disc and running the Optional Installs package. It took 30 seconds to install iChat on a test I just did. It took over a minute to just download Pacifist.

At this stage, Pacifist is the only thing I haven't tried that may work. I've had no success with the other methods suggested, so I think I'll have to give it a go.

Worse still, I think my meddling with iChat may have busted up my system good and proper--I can't open iTunes any more...

[Art Vandelay]

You need to manually run the combo updater. Since you already have 10.4.10 on your Mac, Software Update isn't going to get it for you again.

Apple - Support - Downloads - Mac OS X 10.4.10 Combo Update (PPC)

[Koralatov]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

Also, whether you use Pacifist or the Optional Install option, you will need to run the latest combo updater to get iChat in sync with the current version of the OS.

Ah! Fantastic, thanks. I'll give that a go and see what happens.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

I'm not sure how having to go download a 3rd party utility and using it is faster than inserting a disc and running the Optional Installs package. It took 30 seconds to install iChat on a test I just did. It took over a minute to just download Pacifist.

And your test is bogus. You counted in downloading and installing Pacifist which we know was bogus Art. When you have revert to such shenanigans, you've already lost. Not only that, your advice didn't work. I don't have Pacifist on my computer at work but *I* will time how long it takes *me* to do it

And, I have yet to do such a thing form the optional installs to only have Apple install something I didn't request.

Don't even get into it with me about the no localization installs not working correctly.

I also don't get why you quoted "tool."

Because it's not so much of a tool as it is a feature of that installation disk. And even then it's limited as to what you can get from it.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Koralatov 

Ah! Fantastic, thanks. I'll give that a go and see what happens.

I'd download Pacifist anyhow and give it a try. I don't know why Art is so anti Pacifist.

[Art Vandelay]

Did you even read the entire thread? I'm not anti-Pacifist. I'm just saying it isn't the most appropriate tool for re-installing iChat. Do you use a sledgehammer to put a thumbtack into a wall? Pacifist is overkill for this. It's also something that most people do not have. It's easier to use something that's already on the disc provided for this very task. I use Pacifist a lot at work. I also know when to use a simpler, more user friendly, and much faster method.

It's convenient that you didn't quote the time test post when disputing which is faster. I even mentioned in that post that even if you already have Pacifist it's much slower than Installer.

And most importantly, the reason iChat didn't work for the OP is that he still hadn't run the combo updater afterwards. He's trying to use a version of iChat that depends on older frameworks than what is included with 10.4.10. Pacifist and Optional Installs will both do the same thing. They both will install the iChat.pkg. Either way, he still will be stuck with a dead iChat until he runs the combo updater.

If iChat still doesn't work after running the combo update, then I'd say try Pacifist. But until he runs the combo update, using Pacifist won't fix anything.

[Kevin]

I was speaking about your obviously flawed "benchmarks" Art. You obviously put a spin on it to make your point look right. That wasn't too honest of a comparison.

Either way would be an ok for him to do it. Meaning there was nothing wrong with the advice I gave him.

I am just informing him that your way wont install EVERYTHING he might want eventually. That downloading Pacifist is a good idea for when such a thing arises.

Because if he accidentally deletes his web browser... what is going to do then? I guess that would take TWO steps. Run the install, which installs usually more than you request, then download Pacifist to grab the stuff that the Apple included installer doesn't let you grab.

Pacifist has ONLY installed what I have asked it to. Apple has a habit of installing more than what is needed.

Pacifist is simply a better tool than the one Apple provides. Am I glad Apple is providing this? Sure. But it doesn't cover everything. And I am betting he'll eventually have to download Pacifist anyhow.

[Art Vandelay]

My benchmarks aren't flawed. Just the simple step of doing the actual install, Pacifist is much slower. Stop cherry-picking what you want to dispute. Here I'll even quote it again for you.

Optional Installs from Tiger disc:
Insert disc and wait for mount = 12 seconds
Open Optional Installs.mpkg at root of disc, navigate through Installer and select iChat = 11 seconds
Authenticate and install = 28 seconds
Done.
Total time = 51 seconds

Pacifist:
Download it once you've found it = 24 seconds (8 Mb/s cable)
Insert disc and wait for mount = 12 seconds
Open Pacifist and wait for shareware timer = 15 seconds
Select Apple Install Discs and wait for package scan = 134 seconds
Do search for iChat package = 3 seconds
Install iChat = 129 seconds
Done.
Total time = 317 seconds (293 seconds if you already have Pacifist)

The same exact step between the two methods takes over 4x longer with Pacifist. So even if you already have Pacifist installed, mounted the OS X disc, and waited for Pacifist to scan the disc, Pacifist is much slower.

I do agree that it is a good tool to have in your arsenal.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

My benchmarks aren't flawed. Just the simple step of doing the actual install

The fact you added IN download time shows the bias.

Pacifist is much slower.

It's FASTER at getting me what I WANT. I've had to go back and delete stuff Apple installed that I never asked it to before. Not to mention adding localizations to things I never asked to be installed. That takes even more time to go back and get rid of. The reason why I installed Pacifist was BECAUSE of Apple's "easy install" methods. Besides that, telling someone to download Pacifist because they might need it later is a GOOD idea.

The same exact step between the two methods takes over 4x longer with Pacifist. So even if you already have Pacifist installed, mounted the OS X disc, and waited for Pacifist to scan the disc, Pacifist is much slower.

The process is. But it gives better results, has more options, and has abilities that Apple's "tool" does not. Making it not only faster in the end, but over all more useful.

And this is coming from someone that argues with the author of said program on this forum on a daily basis.

[Art Vandelay]

We aren't talking about what you want. We're talking about what the OP wants. He wants iChat. He doesn't have Pacifist currently. You said Pacifist is the fastest way to get iChat reinstalled. I'm only disputing that. In disputing that it would be faster for the OP, it is perfectly valid to include the fact that Pacifist must be downloaded. I've not said anything negative about Pacifist other than it being slower for this task at hand.

Now, let's end this silly bickering and get back to the topic.

[Koralatov]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I'd download Pacifist anyhow and give it a try. I don't know why Art is so anti Pacifist.

It looks like I may have to. I reinstalled iChat, ran the Combined Update, restarted, and it still didn't work. I ran Repair Permissions, the maintenance scripts, Disk Utility to verify the volume. Everything came out okay. But still no iChat... I'm very, very confused. And also now iTunes-less as a result.

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

We aren't talking about what you want. We're talking about what the OP wants. He wants iChat. He doesn't have Pacifist currently. You said Pacifist is the fastest way to get iChat reinstalled. I'm only disputing that. In disputing that it would be faster for the OP, it is perfectly valid to include the fact that Pacifist must be downloaded. I've not said anything negative about Pacifist other than it being slower for this task at hand.

I second that, to be honest. He hasn't said anything derogatory about Pacifist; he has merely stated that doing it from the Tiger install disk is faster in this instance, as it is already to hand. Sadly, it hasn't worked.

[Art Vandelay]

Odd that it hasn't worked. Give Pacifist a try but before you do, try iChat and iTunes from a different account on your Mac just to rule out a problem with your account first.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

We aren't talking about what you want. We're talking about what the OP wants. He wants iChat. He doesn't have Pacifist currently. You said Pacifist is the fastest way to get iChat reinstalled. I'm only disputing that.

Well he did it your way. It didn't work. Obviously it's not too fast is it?

My point was, my advice was solid as yours was. There was no need for you to reply to my post to "correct" me. It was condescending and silly. Not to mention you going a bit over-board with the exaggerated "benchmark" to prove your point. I am not saying you have anything against Pacifist. I am saying that your zeal made it SEEM that way

Pacifist is a great tool for anyone with OS X. And I'd advise anyone that didn't have it installed, to do so. It has saved my more time than not.

I've saved loads of time not having to delete unwanted apps and localizations from using that App back in my themeing days. Regardless of what me and the Dev disagree on, he made a useful tool that outdoes Apple's way of doing things IMHO.

[Art Vandelay]

There was nothing exaggerated in my time tests. You constantly harping on it is what's silly. I am done discussing this with you.

[CharlesS]

Oh for god's sake. Look, I'm the guy who wrote Pacifist, and this fighting is just silly. Do whatever works for you.

Yes, Pacifist will take a little longer, because I put in some checksum checks to make sure that no mistakes get made while extracting and there's a few other things as well that slow things down a bit for the sake of reliability. If this bothers people, then I guess I should add an option to turn that off in a future version. Sooner or later I'll probably convert it to Objective-C 2.0, which might speed things up a bit due to the faster enumerators. However, that'll probably be later rather than sooner, as it would cause the app to require OS X 10.5 or better.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

There was nothing exaggerated in my time tests

Ok, adding downloading time was necessary and not just a ploy. You've convinced me. Or not mentioning that Apple's installers sometimes give you more than you ask for..

You constantly harping on it is what's silly. I am done discussing this with you.

That wasn't what I was constantly harping at. Just made a comment on your original post that treated my actual good advice as uneeded.

I had a reason I thought he should download Pacifist. A lot of people have no clue what it does. It's a handy application to have around.

[Art Vandelay]

How does using Pacifist to install the iChat package give you something different than using the Optional Installs to install the iChat package?

You've mentioned that Apple gives you more than you want but I only got iChat, same as when I used Pacifist.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

How does using Pacifist to install the iChat package give you something different than using the Optional Installs to install the iChat package?

You've mentioned that Apple gives you more than you want but I only got iChat, same as when I used Pacifist.

I didn't say specifically iChat. I said I had used said optional installs before and Apple has installed things that I didn't request. The "We know better than you do" type thinking.

Another example, in the installer I choose to not install ANY localizations. Yet it installed them all. Why have the feature asking you if you want to install them when Apple is just going to do it anyhow?

[Art Vandelay]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I didn't say specifically iChat. I said I had used said optional installs before and Apple has installed things that I didn't request. The "We know better than you do" type thinking.

But we're talking about iChat here. I've only been talking about iChat the whole time. Also, as I've said before, I think Pacifist is a great tool. I just don't think it's necessary here. It would be nice to hear back from the OP to see how things are going. I have a feeling things still won't be working after using Pacifist. The fact that iTunes has also stopped working is a sign that something else is going on with his Mac.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Another example, in the installer I choose to not install ANY localizations. Yet it installed them all. Why have the feature asking you if you want to install them when Apple is just going to do it anyhow?

I've never had that happen myself so can't say much about that. But that sounds like a problem when you're installing the OS, not when you go back later and run the Optional Installs.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

It would be nice to hear back from the OP to see how things are going.

I think you two are going to scare the OP away.

Koralatov: if it still crashes, could you launch the Console app and then try to launch iChat, and tell us if anything appears in the console before it crashes? Also, posting a crash report might give some clues as to what's going on.

Also, if you haven't tried running the combo updater yet, you might want to give that a try. There could be a version mismatch between iChat and the frameworks it's trying to use.

[Koralatov]

I haven't tried Pacifist yet, but I did install the combo update and nada. I tried iChat on the iMac's other accounts and I get the same thing. I have the log here:

I've linked to the crash-log here, if that's any help.

Now, it means nothing to me. But I do see Application Enhancer mentioned right at the bottom, so I'm going to uninstall that and see if it makes a difference.

I really appreciate all the help you guys are giving me, and I don't want to sound ungrateful, but can we give the whole Pacifist axe-grinding a rest? I'm not taking sides at all here, but the deep analysis of whether or not Art Vandelay is slating Pacifist is getting slightly boring. I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but that's the way I see it.

[CharlesS]

Ugh, APE. Yeah, definitely get rid of that, and if it still crashes, post a new crash report without APE in it.

Also, try the Console thing - it sometimes turns up little hints as to what's going on.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay 

I've never had that happen myself so can't say much about that. But that sounds like a problem when you're installing the OS, not when you go back later and run the Optional Installs.

That was when I was installing the OS AND Optional installs. Apple doesn't just install what you choose, but what it thinks needs to go with that application. Like QT or something. I've always hated that.

Originally Posted by Koralatov 

I haven't tried Pacifist yet, but I did install the combo update and nada.

I don't know if Pacifist would help you here because there seems to be something more going on there. Charles is right, disable the APE first before anything else.

I really appreciate all the help you guys are giving me, and I don't want to sound ungrateful, but can we give the whole Pacifist axe-grinding a rest? I'm not taking sides at all here, but the deep analysis of whether or not Art Vandelay is slating Pacifist is getting slightly boring. I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but that's the way I see it.

No problem. I wont mention Pacifist again in here unless it's relevant to the conversation like my first post in here was.

[Koralatov]

Uninstalling APE seems to have done the trick. Oncce it was uninstalled, I reinstalled iChat, ran the combo update and everything worked fine. Well, almost everything. For some reason, I can't voice chat with my little brother, though I suspect that's because I'm on Tiger and he's on Leopard. Ho hum.

Thanks for all the help everybody--much appreciated.

So, as far as it goes, it would seem that APE causes problems but doesn't really seem to do a whole hell of a lot. I'm not even sure why it was on my iMac in the first place, and nothing has changed since I took it off. Curious...

Originally Posted by Kevin 

No problem. I wont mention Pacifist again in here unless it's relevant to the conversation like my first post in here was.

I appreciate the suggestion, and I don't want you to think I'm being a dick. It's just that somehow your suggestion became totally derailed and spiraled into this massive "Pacifist is better/no, it's not" argument. If nothing else, I am curious about it now, and will probably download it and have a go. If nothing else, that means I can wade in knowingly when the next Pacifist-inspired debate comes around!

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Koralatov 

Uninstalling APE seems to have done the trick. Oncce it was uninstalled, I reinstalled iChat, ran the combo update and everything worked fine.

It was APE.

Now do you people see why I hate that thing? Look how much time we wasted troubleshooting this guy's problem when the whole time it was just APE doing its usual crap and screwing up the system. What a waste of time. I'll bet APE was what was causing his iTunes problem in the other thread, too.



(Koralatov, this isn't directed at you - it's directed at APE and its fanatical followers on this board.)

Well, almost everything. For some reason, I can't voice chat with my little brother, though I suspect that's because I'm on Tiger and he's on Leopard. Ho hum.

What brands of routers are you both using?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Now do you people see why I hate that thing? Look how much time we wasted troubleshooting this guy's problem when the whole time it was just APE doing its usual crap and screwing up the system. What a waste of time. I'll bet APE was what was causing his iTunes problem in the other thread, too.

Yup, and I have been saying this for years too, and been attacked by the APEites.

[Koralatov]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Now do you people see why I hate that thing? Look how much time we wasted troubleshooting this guy's problem when the whole time it was just APE doing its usual crap and screwing up the system. What a waste of time. I'll bet APE was what was causing his iTunes problem in the other thread, too.

Yep, I definitely see why people dislike it now. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was responsible for my iTunes woes. The most irritating thing about it, though, is that I don't know why I installed it in the first place, and removing it has had no effect on my applications at all.

Worst of all, I don't even know what the hell it actually does. Reading about it on Unsanity's site has shed precisely no light on the subject whatsoever. It's vague to the point of meaninglessness. I can safely say I won't be using it again.

(Koralatov, this isn't directed at you - it's directed at APE and its fanatical followers on this board.)

Don't worry, I didn't take it as a swipe at me. And, from my recent experiences, I'm amazed that APE has any fanatical followers at all. I may not particularly appreciate Quicksilver, but at least I can see that it has some tangible benefit...

What brands of routers are you both using?

Mine is a BT Homehub, and I'm not sure what his is. We're both connected via an ethernet cable rather than wireless, which I thought would have improved the chances of using it successfully. I get a "Connection Error" pop-up, and his machine tells him that I refused the voice-chat.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Koralatov 

Yep, I definitely see why people dislike it now. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was responsible for my iTunes woes. The most irritating thing about it, though, is that I don't know why I installed it in the first place, and removing it has had no effect on my applications at all.

Worst of all, I don't even know what the hell it actually does. Reading about it on Unsanity's site has shed precisely no light on the subject whatsoever. It's vague to the point of meaninglessness. I can safely say I won't be using it again.

APE is a framework that allows applications to patch other programs and modify their code. It hacks its way in via APIs that are intended to be used by the debugger, and then makes changes to the program code in memory. They do this so they can make other apps behave in ways the developer didn't intend - for example, to make the green button in a window's title bar do the Windowshade thing from OS 9 instead of minimizing to the Dock, or to make the Apple menu have a bunch of other stuff in it that's not supposed to be there. The problem with APE, aside from the obvious security issues (a malware program taking advantage of code patching could do very nasty things), is that it loads itself into every process on the system and inserts a bunch of its crap, so that every program on your system is doing things that its developer didn't anticipate it doing. It's not difficult to see how this can lead to program crashes and other weird, unpredictable behavior. And of course, the end user will assume it is the fault of the program he is using, and that its code is buggy, rather than the fact that APE is modifying the code to make it buggy. So developers have to deal with troubleshooting issues similar to the one in this thread all the time, trying a bunch of troubleshooting methods each time to try to track down the cause of a problem, when in the end it turns out to have been APE causing the problem the whole time. It's a waste of the developer's time, it's a waste of the user's time. All for a few little system tweaks that are far from necessary.

[Koralatov]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

It's a waste of the developer's time, it's a waste of the user's time. All for a few little system tweaks that are far from necessary.

Yeah, it's definitely that. As I said, I'll be giving the damn thing a wide-berth in future, as it has generated absolutely no positive benefit, but has caused me a huge amount of grief. And, as you say, it seems to do nothing but add a few effects of borderline usefulness. System stability is a high price to pay for such a meagre return.

Thankfully, it looks like Apple are cracking down on this kind of thing with Leopard. It likely won't stop Unsanity from finding a way round it, but it might break the back of its usefulness and leave them catering only to the (inexplicably) devoted users.

Oh, and good work on Pacifist. I downloaded it and had a play. It's now installed and will likely prove useful in the future.