[bbales]

Just a question -- What would happen if you bought one copy (single-user) and then tried to install it on two machines? Realistically, could Apple tell? It's not outside the bounds of reality. Several months ago, I ended up having to buy a second copy of software -- can't even remember which one, now -- because it wouldn't install on my Powerbook. And the software could tell, because of being linked to my desktop via airport extreme.

I'm not looking forward to a multi-user pack. On the other hand, I can do ed pricing, so two copies at that rate would still cost less than the $200 for a 5-pack.

[Maflynn]

Todate Apple hasn't required any type of copy protection or authentication like what M$ does, so to answer your question you could technically load panther on two machines, thouhgh you will be violating the end user license agreement.

Regards
Mike

[austeros]

in other words: nothing

[janmc]

i have a laptop (or will have soon) and a desktop. since i can't use both at the one time, and i'm the only one who uses them, do i technically have to buy 2 licenses?

[Agasthya]

Originally posted by janmc:
i have a laptop (or will have soon) and a desktop. since i can't use both at the one time, and i'm the only one who uses them, do i technically have to buy 2 licenses?

Yes

[bbales]

Seems to me there should be a somehwat cheaper alternative between 1 user and 5. However, Apple didn't ask for my comments...

I'm sure I'll end up getting two copies of the thing... Partly it's to do the right thing. And partly it's the fear of getting caught! (And the fear of having something go wrong as a result.)

[:dragonflypro:]

I admire your concern.

And you can count yourself among the honorable few if you are concerned about running 2 copies of a non-serialized OS.

Getting copies of serialized apps to run on 2 machines (PS, IL, Office, etc) is common.. and they all have network aware IDs.

Unlike serialized OSs, it is virtually impossible to prove you have violated the agreement, unless you walk in to a large Mac company and ask to see their volume agreement for each station...and event then...

Cheers to your ethics, Hiss to the wallet, and have a shot.... it eases paranoia.

PS I ordered 2 10.3s for my two laptops.

T

[Love Calm Quiet]

Apple's got a pretty generous approach for multiple machines in one househould: $200 for a 5-machine kit (vs. $129 for 1-machine).

Seems like an honorable thing to do to support Apple's non-gouging approach to multiple machine support!

[Krsoere]

I put in an order for the family pack of Panther so I can install them on my ibook and my powermac. I just prefer to buy my software and belive that stealing is stealing no matter how you look at it.

Kristian

[Hi I'm Ben]

Is it stealing when i trash the prefs on my trialware programs so my trial starts over again? Or is that just being a jerk?

[bbales]

Oh Ben, I wish you hadn't given me that previously unknown piece of info...

I have a document created on a trial version of InDesign. Trial long ago expired, I can't recreate the document elsewhere and I've been really wishing for a way to make copies of that letterhead I designed. Character test ahead.

[VEGAN]

Santa Claus (and the reindeers and all) would be very angry!

[VEGAN]

Now seriously, Apple treats it's customers a bit better than M$, so why don't we treat Apple a bit better too?


Eh?

[Mr. Blur]

Originally posted by bbales:
Seems to me there should be a somehwat cheaper alternative between 1 user and 5. However, Apple didn't ask for my comments...

???? i think apple's price for the family pack is more than generous and to expect anything "in the middle" of the single and family licenses is not very realistic....even if you only install 2 copies from your family pack you save $60....that's a pretty good deal.....and thats the deal i am taking for my order.

[jedakroub]

My wife and I run a small print and web-development company as side jobs, really more of a supplemental income sort of thing.

My questions is, can we purchase the Family Pack for our 2 PowerBooks and still be considered "legal", even though we are a small business with a registered name, and are making a profit from using our machines?

Any insight would be greatly appeciated.

- Joseph

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by VEGAN:
Now seriously, Apple treats it's customers a bit better than M$, so why don't we treat Apple a bit better too?


Eh?

They hook us up with the software because they know we have to go back to them for the hardware.

$129 a year is starting to get hard to swallow even if they are amazing upgrades.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by jedakroub:
My wife and I run a small print and web-development company as side jobs, really more of a supplemental income sort of thing.

My questions is, can we purchase the Family Pack for our 2 PowerBooks and still be considered "legal", even though we are a small business with a registered name, and are making a profit from using our machines?

Any insight would be greatly appeciated.

- Joseph

You + Wife = family

I see no problem with it...

[drcarl]

There would be nothing illegal about installing Panther on my iMac which is currently running Jaguar and then installing Jaguar on my iMac that is currently running OS 9, right?

Would there be a significant performance increase of Panther over Jaguar on a 333MHz iMac?

[Macfreak7]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
They hook us up with the software because they know we have to go back to them for the hardware.

$129 a year is starting to get hard to swallow even if they are amazing upgrades.

A year?? more like 18 months, no?

Anyway, i think the family pack is a pretty good deal, ~200 for 5 licenses. That's what we'll be getting.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by Macfreak7:
A year?? more like 18 months, no?

Anyway, i think the family pack is a pretty good deal, ~200 for 5 licenses. That's what we'll be getting.

It's official!!! I'm getting OLD!
- Complaining about upgrades
- Complaining about frequency of paid upgrades
- Holding off to install new OS on "important" systems.
- Complaining about $129 major upgrade
- Forgetting things...
- Forgetting things...

[Eriamjh]

Originally posted by drcarl:
There would be nothing illegal about installing Panther on my iMac which is currently running Jaguar and then installing Jaguar on my iMac that is currently running OS 9, right?

No. Nothing. Two owned OSes, two being used.

Would there be a significant performance increase of Panther over Jaguar on a 333MHz iMac?

Yes. Panther is supposed to feel snappier(tm).

Originally posted by Macfreak7:
A year?? more like 18 months, no?

No. Jaguar came out on August 30, 2002. To October 24, you have right around 14 months. (You may now stand corrected). 18 Months might be between Jaguar's announcement and Panther's release, though (I didn't check those dates. Search Macnn.).

[Macfreak7]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
It's official!!! I'm getting OLD!
- Complaining about upgrades
- Complaining about frequency of paid upgrades
- Holding off to install new OS on "important" systems.
- Complaining about $129 major upgrade
- Forgetting things...
- Forgetting things...

Have you tried memory pills? You need more turkey in your diet to increase your serotonin levels.

[Mr. Blur]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
You + Wife = family

I see no problem with it...

except if you really read the license agreement for the family pack:
* Family Pack Software License Agreement allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on up to a maximum of five (5) Apple-labeled computers at a time as long as those computers are located in the same household and used by persons who occupy that same household. By "household" we mean a person or persons sharing the same housing unit such as a home, apartment, mobile home or condominium. This license does not extend to students who reside at a separate on-campus location or to business or commercial users.


He said they are running a business and making a profit....that = "business or commercial users"

[Cop Rock]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
You + Wife = family

I see no problem with it...

From Apple's site:

This license does not extend to students who reside at a separate on-campus location or to business or commercial users.

Sounds to me like you're in a grey area. Personally I'd say it's okay if it's just a part time thing, but if their only use is for the business then I'd say it's not.

My main concern with the Family Pack is resale. If you have two machines and you buy the Family Pack to put Panther on them, then you'll need to take Panther off if you want to sell one of them. Maybe that's a problem, maybe it isn't. (I bought individual copies of Jaguar when it came out because it was cheaper than the family pack with amazon's $50 rebate deal.)

[Arkham_c]

You people are all wallowing in semantics. The bottom line is this: if you use panther, you should give Apple some money. The specifics are a matter of ethics. Apple trusts you, so do what you feel is fair.

I bought Jaguar instead of pirating it like my friends precisely because Apple trusts us to make the right decision.

[etohme]

jedakroub,

Of course you can use the family-pack. This is IF you don't charge your web printing business for it. Then the question becomes:
am I willing to spend $199 which will not be tax deductible and be happy?

[BigYellowMonkey]

I bought 2 copies of Jaguar when it was released, not knowing about the family pack (if there even was one for 10.2). And I'll probably buy the family pack this time around. As I will when 10.4 and every update after that is released. Because if my $129 can help stop apple from turning into another M$ and making serialized OS'es requiring activation and whatnot, then it's worth every penny.

-Biggie!

[Mr. Blur]

Originally posted by Arkham_c:
You people are all wallowing in semantics.

no, we are not. the question was asked and an answer that did not reflect what the license agreement really states was given....we just gave the coreect information. whether people follow it is their choice but they should at least be aware of what they are doing.

[jedakroub]

While I certainly don't have any problem not using my software purchase as a write-off, I think I am going to purchase 2 separate copies of Panther just to be safe. Though my wallet may not like it (or my wife!), I will at least be able to avoid any gray areas. Thank you all for your help!

[coolmacdude]

Originally posted by Mr. Blur:
no, we are not. the question was asked and an answer that did not reflect what the license agreement really states was given....we just gave the coreect information. whether people follow it is their choice but they should at least be aware of what they are doing.

Who reads license agreements? I don't think I've ever read a single one in my life.

[dtriska]

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
Who reads license agreements? I don't think I've ever read a single one in my life.

I've skimmed a few; they can be quite funny. There's stuff in them about not using the software with nuclear reactors or national defence, etc.

As to the whole question of legalities/ethics/etc, just be reasonable. I don't believe it's necessary to be a strict adherent to the law; just act in a reasonable and responsible manner. Apple's not going to care if you use your Mac to make a little money on the side, but have the Family Pack for Panther. Apple doesn't want large corporations benefiting from this deal. That's all.

Still, if you feel like this is too much grey area for you, then buy separate copies. It's no big deal.

[mikemako]

It's nice to see so many people willing to buy the family pack since they're installing on more than one computer. That's great! I will also be buying the family pack for the 3 computers I own.

[BigYellowMonkey]

I changed my mind. I figure, since I already purchased 2 copies of Jaguar, I'm only using the Panther CD as an upgrade disc. And since the upgrade discs are going at a cost of $20 to new mac owners, and I figure being a loyal-for-15-years-or-so mac owner is even better, I think that using it as an upgrade cd for the macs (now 3 of them) that will be running panther, and paying $130 for basically 3 upgrades (that are worth $20 each, remember) is more than fair. Not to mention that I've bought more than my fair share of apple products in the last decade and a half.

-Biggie!

[Souljah]

Panther 7B85 does have a serial number.
Whether it's to find Apple's in house leak or to implement some sort of software protection
by not allowing you to get upgrades "a la MSFT" I don't know, but I suspect we will soon find out!
This wild fire spread of a supposed GM builds cannot be allowed much longer.

[Mr. Blur]

Originally posted by BigYellowMonkey:
I changed my mind. I figure, since I already purchased 2 copies of Jaguar, I'm only using the Panther CD as an upgrade disc. And since the upgrade discs are going at a cost of $20 to new mac owners, and I figure being a loyal-for-15-years-or-so mac owner is even better, I think that using it as an upgrade cd for the macs (now 3 of them) that will be running panther, and paying $130 for basically 3 upgrades (that are worth $20 each, remember) is more than fair. Not to mention that I've bought more than my fair share of apple products in the last decade and a half.

-Biggie!

....another lame attempt at justifying the violation of the terms of the software agreement.

[BigYellowMonkey]

Originally posted by Mr. Blur:
....another lame attempt at justifying the violation of the terms of the software agreement.

People like you make me laugh. You act so self-righteous, but you forget - most of the people on here have, at one time or another, used software that they have NOT payed for. Including yourself. And where I come from, if I buy one copy and install it on all my computers, that's a lot better than not supporting the company at all. Not to mention I've probably been purchasing apple products since you were in diapers. So don't use your "high and mighty" attitude on me, because I have no use for it. And neither do most people on this forum.

How I feel about it is, I'll buy my one copy. And if some serializing feature comes along, I'll buy more copies if I have to. But in the mean time, no one at Apple is gonna lose their jobs cause of me.

-Biggie!

[Mr. Blur]

Originally posted by BigYellowMonkey:
- most of the people on here have, at one time or another, used software that they have NOT payed for. Including yourself.

i had no idea you've been doing an ongoing audit on my software and licenses.

as for the rest of your rant, it is so stupid that it does not even warrant a response.

[:XI:]

Originally posted by Mr. Blur:
i had no idea you've been doing an ongoing audit on my software and licenses.

So, you don't use freeware?

Ok, I'm a part time student with two macs, I could get two copies of panther at �99.01 each (�198.02) or the family pack for �159 or the family pack with edu discount for �79.90. That's less than one copy of panther at full price! It's insane! My �300 in course fees so far have saved me around �130 on mac stuff!

[coolmacdude]

Originally posted by dtriska:
Apple's not going to care if you use your Mac to make a little money on the side, but have the Family Pack for Panther. Apple doesn't want large corporations benefiting from this deal. That's all.

Exactly, by saying it has to be for non-profit use, they aren't saying they want to forbid Grandma X from selling cookies on her website administered from home with a family license of Panther. What they mean is they don't want IBM buying 10 family packs for 50 users.

[Gene Jockey]

Originally posted by BigYellowMonkey:
People like you make me laugh.

People like you should have one of their limbs pulled off so you can be beaten with it.

You act so self-righteous, but you forget - most of the people on here have, at one time or another, used software that they have NOT payed for. Including yourself.

Ah yes, don't point out my crime! You've done it too! I know! Don't ask me how I know you pirate software, I just assume you're a jerk like me and must!

And where I come from, if I buy one copy and install it on all my computers, that's a lot better than not supporting the company at all.

Wow, you come from the land of no property rights! What a paradise that much be. I'm going to drive to Wal-Mart when I'm done posting and buy one blank tape and jam another 8 down my pants without paying for them. I mean, that's better than not supporting BASF at all.

Not to mention I've probably been purchasing apple products since you were in diapers.

Oh, there's a world-class argument. My Dad's been driving automobiles a lot longer than most of the people on this board, does that make it OK for him to steal a car? Seriously, any variant of "I've been blah blah blah since you were a child" instantly kills credibility.

So don't use your "high and mighty" attitude on me, because I have no use for it.

Too late. And you clearly do.

And neither do most people on this forum.

Yeah, because none of them came out and said they're going to steal software.

How I feel about it is, I'll buy my one copy. And if some serializing feature comes along, I'll buy more copies if I have to. But in the mean time, no one at Apple is gonna lose their jobs cause of me.
-Biggie!

So basically you'll steal until you're caught, and justify it by saying you're not hurting the jobs at Apple, ignoring the fact that when you and hundreds of other who think the same thing do it, it will have an impact on Apple's bottom line.

--J

[brachiator]

Originally posted by Arkham_c:
You people are all wallowing in semantics.

Speaking as a lawyer, "I resemble that comment!"

Seriously, though, "wallowing" is the human condition -- and the mire increases with the level of civilization, which is a good thing.

Semantics is EXACTLY what humans do and its hardly an epithet. And people who live under any form of ordered society using language -- especially one ordered on written laws and contracts -- rely on parsing the meaning of those documents.

Apple put a lot of time and money into developing its licensing agreement. Apple should be presumed to mean what it says, and to allow that which it did not explicitly prohibit. So, its not as simple as "use Panther, pay Apple." Are you sending in a $1000 check, or only a five dollar payment? "$129" is semantics!

Originally posted by Arkham_c:
Apple trusts us to make the right decision.

I seriously doubt that, but it's pretty to think so. "Trust" never seemed to be in the vocabulary of big business -- or Steve Jobs, for that matter. I'm sure its a highly calculated economic decision. Unless its a Sculley holdover, that is.

[mrtew]

Originally posted by brachiator:
Speaking as a lawyer, "I resemble that comment!"

Seriously, though, "wallowing" is the human condition -- and the mire increases with the level of civilization, which is a good thing.

Semantics is EXACTLY what humans do and its hardly an epithet. And people who live under any form of ordered society using language -- especially one ordered on written laws and contracts -- rely on parsing the meaning of those documents.

Apple put a lot of time and money into developing its licensing agreement. Apple should be presumed to mean what it says, and to allow that which it did not explicitly prohibit. So, its not as simple as "use Panther, pay Apple." Are you sending in a $1000 check, or only a five dollar payment? "$129" is semantics!

I seriously doubt that, but it's pretty to think so. "Trust" never seemed to be in the vocabulary of big business -- or Steve Jobs, for that matter. I'm sure its a highly calculated economic decision. Unless its a Sculley holdover, that is.

WOW! That's the first intelligent thing I've read on this forum today!

[jasong]

Ah BigYellowMonkey, you were so close to making the right decision. Sorry to see you on the wrong side of the path.

Get a backbone and least have the guts to say you are stealing.

-- Jason

[BigYellowMonkey]

Originally posted by jasong:
Ah BigYellowMonkey, you were so close to making the right decision. Sorry to see you on the wrong side of the path.

Get a backbone and least have the guts to say you are stealing.

-- Jason

Oh, what's that? You don't approve? Well, sh*t. Looks like I'm gonna have to cry myself to sleep again tonight...

Oh, and to any Apple employees who lose their jobs because Apple can't afford to employ them any longer because I purchase only one copy of Panther... I'm sorry. And if there's lots of you, well, I'm really sorry.

-Biggie!

[yg17]

What goes around comes around.

M$ releases horrible updates with more holes than swiss cheese and screws it's users, thats why although I have copies of Windows 98 and up, Windows 98 is the only legal one; only because it came with an old computer of mine. Upgrades are more like downgrades. Each new version of Windows is slower on older computers and just total crap.

Apple on the other hand doesn't screw it's users. They're not nazis when it comes to licensing, they don't stick spyware in the OS, it doesnt phone home when you install. And you get your money's worth. Upgrades are upgrades; they actually speed up old machines. And that's why I preordered my copy of Panther the second I got home from school and heard the news.

And the next 11 days I'll be impaitently waiting for Panther

[King Bob On The Cob]

If you are the only one using the software, You can install it at least twice. (Unless I'm much mistaken Fair Use says 10 copies can be had if only one is in use at any given time) But as soon as your friend comes over and gets on that iMac while your on the PowerBook, your breaking the EULA.

[Mr. Blur]

Originally posted by King Bob On The Cob:
If you are the only one using the software, You can install it at least twice. (Unless I'm much mistaken Fair Use says 10 copies can be had if only one is in use at any given time) But as soon as your friend comes over and gets on that iMac while your on the PowerBook, your breaking the EULA.

No, that is not correct. The Agreement clearly states that it licensed *per computer* - "...This license does not allow the Apple software to exist on more than one computer at a time..."

(that is from the 10.2 agreement - I do not have 10.3 yet!)

[StiZeven]

I am wondering if all the pirating police feel the same way about *all* software, or is it just Apple software? So let me ask you this, would it be 'okay' to steal a copy of XP since it's from MS? Will anyone actually try to justify that one? (�don't try, it's never going to work).

Regardless of how much you hate a company, and how much money they make, stealing is stealing and the double standard will never work and will cancel out any goodie-goodie anti-pirating remarks towards Apple software.

Would it be okay to steal a diamond bracelet from Tiffany's since they are huge and make hordes of cash versus stealing one from 'Joe Shmo's Jewelers'? No, same crime, same penalty.

By the way (and believe it or not) you *can* legally install Windows XP and Office XP on two separate home computers withOUT having to buy a second license. This options is available for those who have both Desktops and Notebooks. MS will grant you the secondary code over the phone via a 2 minute call. Not too bad considering you're saving hundreds of dollars.

[Mr. Blur]

Originally posted by StiZeven:
By the way (and believe it or not) you *can* legally install Windows XP and Office XP on two separate home computers withOUT having to buy a second license. This options is available for those who have both Desktops and Notebooks.

the license for ms office mac is the same....and i think that is a reasonable agreement. the difference between xp and os x is the full cost of the os...ms can offer that deal because the price is high to start with (if you have to buy "off the shelf")...at $129 os x is already at the low end, and the family-pack is a real bargain for those that can use it (like me).

i understand some of the comments people make about not following the license to the letter of the "law" - each of us have our own morals. i just think that apple has a threshold of how much piracy they deem acceptable and i would hate to see that line crossed and have us end up with activation codes and no more family pack deals etc....

[sorkinesque]

Originally posted by StiZeven:

Would it be okay to steal a diamond bracelet from Tiffany's since they are huge and make hordes of cash versus stealing one from 'Joe Shmo's Jewelers'? No, same crime, same penalty.

By the way (and believe it or not) you *can* legally install Windows XP and Office XP on two separate home computers withOUT having to buy a second license. This options is available for those who have both Desktops and Notebooks. MS will grant you the secondary code over the phone via a 2 minute call. Not too bad considering you're saving hundreds of dollars.

But stealing a diamond is not the same crime as 'stealing' panther. Stealing a diamond from Tiffany's deprives them of that diamond. Downloading Panther over BT might be depriving Apple of potential revenue.

and I can think of plenty of instances in which it would be okay (read:moral) to steal from either Tiffany or Apple.